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I was going to build a NPC v. Hellknights and thought a Blackguard would be fun. Alas, no Blackguard in the PRPG. Not open source?
I suppose I could convert the 3.5 to PRPG.
Alternatively, has anyone played with the notion of expanding the Paladin to include variances, that would, in effect, include a Blackguard theme?
Alternatively, has anyone played with the notion of expanding the Paladin to include variances, that would, in effect, include a Blackguard theme?
There is open content from the d20 Unearthed Arcana book regarding paladins of different alignments. You might have to tweak them a bit to fit them in with Pathfinder paladins, but it's a starting point.
The three paladin variants presented here demonstrate examples of alternative-alignment paladins. Each one follows a specific code of conduct tailored to its specific alignment. The paladin of freedom is chaotic good, dedicated to liberty and free thought. The paladin of tyranny is the opposite, a lawful evil villain bent on dominating those weaker than she. The paladin of slaughter is a brutal champion of chaos and evil who leaves only destruction trailing in his wake. (If you use these versions of the paladin class, you might consider designating the standard paladin as the "paladin of honor" to differentiate it from the variants.)
There's also the Anti-Paladin class in 4WFG's Paths of Power. It's basically the antithesis of Paladins, a class for champions of Chaos and Evil in the same way that Paladins represent Law and Good.
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The Paizo staff have stated that they would like to see the Blackguard become a base class, sort of an anti-Paladin. That is why the prestige class was left out IIRC. The Hellknight prestige class is in one of the most recient adventure paths and should be exactly what you are looking for.
I've actually incorporated Hellknight NPCs. But what I was looking for was a person who was enemy of the Hellknights - enemy of the Chelaxian throne and its infernal allies - and not a good guy. That's where the concept of a Blackguard came in.
I've always toyed with the idea of just going through and replacing any mention of Good with Evil and vice versa. So Smite Evil becomes Smite Good, etc.
The only thing that remains questionable is lay on hands and its associated abilities... Methinks anti-paladins don't go around healing things, so an alternate ability is probably needed. The old blackguard had sneak attack, although with the way smite works now, I think the two combined might be overkill. Of course, isn't killing what anti-paladins do? >:D
I've always toyed with the idea of just going through and replacing any mention of Good with Evil and vice versa. So Smite Evil becomes Smite Good, etc.
The only thing that remains questionable is lay on hands and its associated abilities... Methinks anti-paladins don't go around healing things, so an alternate ability is probably needed. The old blackguard had sneak attack, although with the way smite works now, I think the two combined might be overkill. Of course, isn't killing what anti-paladins do? >:D
I think perhaps they would get a class ability to deal negative energy equal to a Lay on Hands as a touch attack. I'm also of the camp that they should be able to heal themselves and undead minions just as much as a normal paladin can to their allies though so perhaps changing Divine Grace to something like;
Fel Fortitude, add your CHA to saves and you now receive healing from negative energy and are harmed by positive energy.
This would make for a completely opposite version of lay on hands (as well as channel negative energy). While still letting them be daamged by the opposite type.
As in...
Paladin LG
Hellknight LN
Anti-Paladin (renamed Blackguard) LE
Low Templar for non lawful alignmentsWe know that the Hellknight (and possibly the Low Templar) will make their appearance in the APG, but I agree that it would be cool to see the Blackguard as a future base class
Personally, though, I still prefer the Anti-Paladin title. As silly as the name is, it instantly evokes a lot of nostalgia.
I think ya have this a bit wrong. The low templar is not the class that will be in the AGP
we seem to be getting
Paladin LG
Templar LN, LE,NG,N,NE,CG,CN
Anti-paladin CE
with all 3 being versions of the same class templar just filling any role that is not LG or CE
The hellknight PRC and the low templar PRC both seem to be gonna make it into the updated campaign setting.
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Whatever the decision is, I do not want to see the evil paladin with just evil versions of a paladin. Evil is selfish, and the powers they get are generally weaker because of their attitudes and style. Living for others is much more difficult, that's why paladins get tons of abilities, and in PF, a really nice power set in PF that people almost think broken.
I never looked too hard for the blackguard's abilities, but the poison use and sneak attack fit a champion of evil better than just evil paladin. I also think a blackguard type character should have abilities that makes them stronger at the expensive of their minions and/or followers. Because in the end, evil is selfish, they extend themselves at the expense of others, so it fit the class. I know that's difficult to setup mechanically, but if done so correctly, rewarding to play and role play.
Whatever the decision is, I do not want to see the evil paladin with just evil versions of a paladin. Evil is selfish, and the powers they get are generally weaker because of their attitudes and style. Living for others is much more difficult, that's why paladins get tons of abilities, and in PF, a really nice power set in PF that people almost think broken.
I never looked too hard for the blackguard's abilities, but the poison use and sneak attack fit a champion of evil better than just evil paladin. I also think a blackguard type character should have abilities that makes them stronger at the expensive of their minions and/or followers. Because in the end, evil is selfish, they extend themselves at the expense of others, so it fit the class. I know that's difficult to setup mechanically, but if done so correctly, rewarding to play and role play.
Evil is more than just selfish, though. Evil is destructive for destruction's sake, and committed to that end. Evil takes from others without asking or compensating, and it gives them power. I think limiting the powers of an "Evil" character for some arbitrary philosophy is really not representative of either reality or established fantasy as a whole.
That said, I can't wait to see Paizo unleash an evil campaign source on the world.
Creative Director
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We have no current plans to update the blackguard prestige class as a prestige class. The plan is to present the antipaladin as its own variant full 20 level class, along with templars filling in the gaps as mentioned above.
What this lets folks do is to continue using the blackguard prestige class more or less as-is from its 3.5 version, since we aren't redefining what that class does.
We have no current plans to update the blackguard prestige class as a prestige class. The plan is to present the antipaladin as its own variant full 20 level class, along with templars filling in the gaps as mentioned above.
What this lets folks do is to continue using the blackguard prestige class more or less as-is from its 3.5 version, since we aren't redefining what that class does.
Any chance the rumors this will be in the Gamemastery Guide are slightly true? and if so are any other classes being considered. Also will there be a play-test like the APG?
*loves new classes, he hugs them and squeezes them and will name them George*
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Any chance the rumors this will be in the Gamemastery Guide are slightly true? and if so are any other classes being considered. Also will there be a play-test like the APG?
*loves new classes, he hugs them and squeezes them and will name them George*
They have said from pretty much day 1 that the paladin variant builds {templar and anti-paladin } will be in the AGP. There was not playtest as they are not new classes, but alt paladins.
So not new classes but non-LG paladins
While I'm not thrilled with non-LG paladins, I'll be much happier to see those than to see a shoehorned LG paladin of Asmodeus anywhere.
While I'm not thrilled with non-LG paladins, I'll be much happier to see those than to see a shoehorned LG paladin of Asmodeus anywhere.
No such thing...ever. Yeah I don't like non-LG paladins, however I am good with making just 3. LG/CE everything else. And I do not think they will look alike. Making them a paladin with just "evil" i place of good is a coup out
I do like they keep the name paladin for LG only. I think we will see 3 very different classes in the end. I hope anyhow.
I think ya have this a bit wrong. The low templar is not the class that will be in the AGPwe seem to be getting
Paladin LG
Templar LN, LE,NG,N,NE,CG,CN
Anti-paladin CE
Thats exactly what we are getting
I thought it was. 3 seems a nice number and better then 9 diff paladins types
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Creative Director
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We have no current plans to update the blackguard prestige class as a prestige class. The plan is to present the antipaladin as its own variant full 20 level class, along with templars filling in the gaps as mentioned above.
What this lets folks do is to continue using the blackguard prestige class more or less as-is from its 3.5 version, since we aren't redefining what that class does.
Any chance the rumors this will be in the Gamemastery Guide are slightly true? and if so are any other classes being considered. Also will there be a play-test like the APG?
*loves new classes, he hugs them and squeezes them and will name them George*
The antipaladin's gonna be in the Advanced Player's Guide, not the Gamemastery Guide.
I created a blackguard base class (well, started to, never got to finish it) a while ago, you can find the PDF HERE
It's still missing the basic fluff (including the alignment restriction, which is "any evil"), the class skill list (though I guess taking the blackguard list from 3.5e and pathfinderising it will work), animal companion rules for profane bond and the code of conduct and associates rules (though I'm not sure I'd even want rules for those, beyond the "don't become non-evil"). Oh, and the spell list, which should also be easy enough, as you just pathfinderise the old one.
He gets smite good, but instead of getting double the damage bonus against angels or something like that, he gets it whenever you could also sneak attack it (blackguards do no longer get sneak attack)
Instead of lay on hands, he gets reaving touch, which damages the target and heals the blackguard.
Instead of mercy, he gets the ability to inflict negative conditions on others (this works best if he currently suffers from the condition, because he then passes it on to the victim)
Instead of auras to strengthen foes, he gets powers to keep decreasing various abilities of a victim he keeps hitting.
The antipaladin's gonna be in the Advanced Player's Guide, not the Gamemastery Guide.
So you won't pad your class count by making variant classes and calling them "new" classes? Cool!
ermmm, idea of a paladin is a knight of X god, who forgoes normal clergy and is more of a knight or crusader. That being said, i always liked idea of a paladin choosing his deity and matching his alignment to said deity or ideal. After glancing at unearthed arcana the options there are a very nice basis on how to do it.
Basically went and gave them a new set alignment based in what were about, changed aura of good to evil ect, and smite evil to smite good or its variant. As for lay hands, it actually was a damaging touch looked pretty basic so much so i may emply a PF version of it to my paladins in game.
Just to plug in the hole, would an evil fighter/cleric work?
-TG
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I just hope they don't call it an Anti-Paladin. It should be a class in and of itself, not merely defined by something it opposes. Blackguard is a great name, but I can understand them not wanting to use it. But I don't think they should name it Anti-Paladin just based on nostalgia. Sometimes things change for the better. Of the three class names in OD&D, the only name I could stand was Cleric, and even for that one I prefer Priest. Seriously, Fighting-Man and Magic-User? What were Gyrex and Anderson smoking?
The antipaladin's gonna be in the Advanced Player's Guide, not the Gamemastery Guide.We have no current plans to update the blackguard prestige class as a prestige class. The plan is to present the antipaladin as its own variant full 20 level class, along with templars filling in the gaps as mentioned above.
What this lets folks do is to continue using the blackguard prestige class more or less as-is from its 3.5 version, since we aren't redefining what that class does.
Any chance the rumors this will be in the Gamemastery Guide are slightly true? and if so are any other classes being considered. Also will there be a play-test like the APG?
*loves new classes, he hugs them and squeezes them and will name them George*
Will it be named Antipaladin? Maybe it's just me, but I always tough that this name was really bad. Descriptive maybe, but only if you know what a Paladin is. And it really put too much emphasis of the "counterclass" part, living little individuality to the class. Maybe use some other qualifier or create a new name for the class altogether?
Edit: I just saw Kthulhu beat me to the point by a good margin. Anyways, baseline is, I agree with him.
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were Gyrex and Anderson smoking?
Gyrex? :)
That's actually a pretty cool name for a dragon or something ...
I'm not 100% certain, but I think it has been stated that Antipaladin is indeed the name used in the book.
For the record, I love the idea of using that name. There is certainly the nostalgia aspect to be sure, but beyond that, it just works in this case. The Paladin is such a singularly unique and extreme class for Law and Good ... it makes sense to have a equally unique, yet polar opposite class, and Anitpaladin as a name just works for me.
You can always call this class variant something else in your game ...
I think that any diety should have the ability to have a Holy or Unholy Knight of some kind. I do not think it is called a Paladin. I think it is called a Holy Knight of Desna or whoever...
It's called a cleric.
The name we're using is indeed "antipaladin."
/sadface
Ah well, I'm still looking foward to the class. It's just that the name antipaladin seems to give too much importance to those pesky do-gooders.
I hear ya man, I hate the name as well. Makes him sound like a superman or batman villain from the 1960's or early 70's
'Holy bill of rights, Batman! it's the Anti-Paladin!
Sigh
The name we're using is indeed "antipaladin."/sadface
Ah well, I'm still looking foward to the class. It's just that the name antipaladin seems to give too much importance to those pesky do-gooders.
Yes, because there's nothing at all important about dedicated champions of light and the incarnate righteous swords of the Good pantheons...
Anti-paladins prove that Gygax subscribed to the Augustinian theory of evil as privation of the good.
I hear ya man, I hate the name as well. Makes him sound like a superman or batman villain from the 1960's or early 70's
'Holy bill of rights, Batman! it's the Anti-Paladin!
Sigh
You could say the same for any class, though.
"You see Batman, never once did you reckon you'd have to deal with the stupendous strategies of...The Sorcerer!"
"Robin, I'm afraid our enemy is none other then that master thief and burgler, calling himself only...The Rogue!"
In fact, to be really fair, you could say the same for any noun in existance
I hear ya man, I hate the name as well. Makes him sound like a superman or batman villain from the 1960's or early 70's
'Holy bill of rights, Batman! it's the Anti-Paladin!
Sigh
You could say the same for any class, though.
"You see Batman, never once did you reckon you'd have to deal with the stupendous strategies of...The Sorcerer!"
"Robin, I'm afraid our enemy is none other then that master thief and burgler, calling himself only...The Rogue!"
In fact, to be really fair, you could say the same for any noun in existance
True, but the last two sound kinda neat while the first one sounds campy and a bit cheesy like Anti-spiderman or Anti-superman...yep look has the Anti on front ya know it's super evil.
Some folks like the name I find it cheesy.
I hear ya man, I hate the name as well. Makes him sound like a superman or batman villain from the 1960's or early 70's
'Holy bill of rights, Batman! it's the Anti-Paladin!
Sigh
You could say the same for any class, though.
"You see Batman, never once did you reckon you'd have to deal with the stupendous strategies of...The Sorcerer!"
"Robin, I'm afraid our enemy is none other then that master thief and burgler, calling himself only...The Rogue!"
In fact, to be really fair, you could say the same for any noun in existance
True, but the last two sound kinda neat while the first one sounds campy and a bit cheesy like Anti-spiderman or Anti-superman...yep look has the Anti on front ya know it's super evil.
Some folks like the name I find it cheesy.
My solution is simple: don't add a "the" at the beginning of "anti-paladin." Adding a "the" at the beginning of anything can make it cheesy ;p
THE BLACKGUARD! is no less accompanied by hackneyed dramatic music then THE ANTIPALADIN!
My perspective:
Blackguard means 2 a : a rude or unscrupulous person b : a person who uses foul or abusive language.
Anti-paladin warms the cockles of my grognardish heart, and says what it is.
Antipasto - the EVIL pasto!
My perspective:
Blackguard means 2 a : a rude or unscrupulous person b : a person who uses foul or abusive language.
Anti-paladin warms the cockles of my grognardish heart, and says what it is.
Paizo doing something Old School?
Shocked! Shocked, I am!! ;)
Warms my cockles too. I have fond memories of players facing down a powerful anti-paladin under the boughs of the Vesve Forest. I think it was one of the encounters that taught them the wisdom of learning when to run away, and that survival by itself can be considered a victory.
ant-paladin is so smurfy, go smurf it, it s corny and so smurfing stupid.
smurf this smurf that, blame the two who said smurf and anti smurf.
rule 0: Im calling it the smurfing DArk Hellknight of smurfdom
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Instead of lay on hands, he gets reaving touch, which damages the target and heals the blackguard.
Instead of mercy, he gets the ability to inflict negative conditions on others (this works best if he currently suffers from the condition, because he then passes it on to the victim)
Instead of auras to strengthen foes, he gets powers to keep decreasing various abilities of a victim he keeps hitting.
These three sound hot!
I think the Prof is on to something, as well.