I would say that knuckle dusters from the APG have pretty much made the question redundant.
+1. Brass Knuckles can be enchanted as weapons, are monk weapons, and use unarmed damage. These could be easily re-skinned into gloves (I'm imagining MMA or "Ryu" style gloves), or steel-toed boots.
|
Concerning Brass Knuckles:
Adventurer's Armory Errata
According to SKR, those changes take precedence over the APG version because they are more recent.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If your fists were masterwork, you'd be getting a +1 to attack with them. They are not masterwork.
What about casting Masterwork Transformation on your monk?
Target one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touchedYou convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves' tools becomes masterwork thieves' tools, and so on. If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect. You can affect 50 pieces of ammunition as if they were one weapon. You decide if the object's appearance changes to reflect this improved quality.
The material component for the spell is magical reagents worth the cost difference between a normal item and the equivalent masterwork item (typically 300 gp for a weapon, 150 gp for armor, or 50 gp for a tool). If an object has multiple masterwork options (such as a double weapon, or a spiked shield that could be made masterwork as a weapon or armor), you choose one option of the object to affect (though you can cast the spell again to affect another option).
If a monk's unarmed strike is truly "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." then it should be able to be a target of Masterwork Transformation.
Valcili, your logical argument is flawed. You can't enchant a weapon unless it's masterwork quality. As has been pointed out, unarmed strikes are not masterwork. If they were, you would receive the benefit of a masterwork weapon when making unarmed strikes.
But this is also a question to ask your DM.
'Throwing hands' would totally rock, but I thing returning is mandatory...
Anyway, why can't you enchant the hands? The wording in regards to what your hands, as a monk, are acts like you can. Is there something else that says no that I don't see?
Well, if you are going to start enchanting yourself why stop with hands.
Fists: +1 +1d6 fire damage
Legs: +1 +1d6 acid damage
Chest: +4 armor class (Mage armor is nice with permanency)
Fore Arms: +4 armor class (Enchanted with Shield spell and permanency.)
According to a soap commercial the human body has over 100 parts, each treated individually can protect or amplify the whole body.
In short, the reason that you can't enchant yourself is that it would get out of hand way too quickly, and let's face it, if you were a fighter, you could wear armor too.
But this is also a question to ask your DM.
'Throwing hands' would totally rock, but I thing returning is mandatory...
Anyway, why can't you enchant the hands? The wording in regards to what your hands, as a monk, are acts like you can. Is there something else that says no that I don't see?Well, if you are going to start enchanting yourself why stop with hands.
Fists: +1 +1d6 fire damage
Legs: +1 +1d6 acid damage
Chest: +4 armor class (Mage armor is nice with permanency)
Fore Arms: +4 armor class (Enchanted with Shield spell and permanency.)According to a soap commercial the human body has over 100 parts, each treated individually can protect or amplify the whole body.
In short, the reason that you can't enchant yourself is that it would get out of hand way too quickly, and let's face it, if you were a fighter, you could wear armor too.
They had that in 3.5... it was called Incarnum, and it was pretty pointless.
If a monk's unarmed strike is truly "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." then it should be able to be a target of Masterwork Transformation.
I totally have no idea of why this wouldn't work, and it sure is kindof cool.
|
There seems to be alot of overthinking going on here. Keep it simple...
1) Greater Magic Fang + Permanency + Amulet of Mighty Fists for other additional abilities (RAW)
2) Create Magic Tattoo + Craft Magic Arms and Armor would also be an acceptable compromise, where CMAA is a prerequisite for the ability to apply enhancing tattoos. (Not quite RAW)
3) Enchant other items like "hand wraps" as has been discussed.
4) "Brass" Knuckles (RAW) Note* Of course the material can be altered to deal with certain DR.
5) 3PP feats and abilities as compensation (Not quite RAW)
6) Invent a new Item Creation Feat to cover the apparent lack of capability for enhancement. (Not quite RAW)
These are your options, take your pick. I prefer options 1 and 4 myself.
|
Well, if you are going to start enchanting yourself why stop with hands.
Fists: +1 +1d6 fire damage
Legs: +1 +1d6 acid damage
Chest: +4 armor class (Mage armor is nice with permanency)
Fore Arms: +4 armor class (Enchanted with Shield spell and permanency.)According to a soap commercial the human body has over 100 parts, each treated individually can protect or amplify the whole body.
In short, the reason that you can't enchant yourself is that it would get out of hand way too quickly, and let's face it, if you were a fighter, you could wear armor too.
But Unarmed Strike is one single "weapon", the entire body. Don't break it up and overcomplicate it, and things won't get out of hand. Any enhancement method made for monks should take care of the body as a whole.
But Unarmed Strike is one single "weapon", the entire body. Don't break it up and overcomplicate it, and things won't get out of hand. Any enhancement method made for monks should take care of the body as a whole.Well, if you are going to start enchanting yourself why stop with hands.
Fists: +1 +1d6 fire damage
Legs: +1 +1d6 acid damage
Chest: +4 armor class (Mage armor is nice with permanency)
Fore Arms: +4 armor class (Enchanted with Shield spell and permanency.)According to a soap commercial the human body has over 100 parts, each treated individually can protect or amplify the whole body.
In short, the reason that you can't enchant yourself is that it would get out of hand way too quickly, and let's face it, if you were a fighter, you could wear armor too.
Exactly. Knuckles don't help you kick or headbutt.
But Unarmed Strike is one single "weapon", the entire body. Don't break it up and overcomplicate it, and things won't get out of hand. Any enhancement method made for monks should take care of the body as a whole.
Well the next step after enchanting natural weapons is enchanting natural armor......
(Assuming a +1 buff is being given to natural armor)
Would we call that +1 buff a +2 bonus if the monk's fists are already enchanted with a +1 bonus? Or would we start the counter over?
Well the next step after enchanting natural weapons is enchanting natural armor......
(Assuming a +1 buff is being given to natural armor)
Would we call that +1 buff a +2 bonus if the monk's fists are already enchanted with a +1 bonus? Or would we start the counter over?
Monks dont have a rule that allows them to treat themselves as armor for spells/effects.
They do for weapons.
|
Permanency
and
Greater Magic Fang
now combined with the monks Ki Strike and then using an amulet of mighty fists to give special abilities. Well who need the brass knuckles?
Interesting thread :-)
I am one of those who do not see an issue with enchanting the unarmed strike. For example, what happens if you choose unarmed strike as your bonded item as an arcane duelist and take the improved unarmed strike feat? Since you "gain" a masterwork item for it and nothing prevents you from choosing an umarmed strike that I can see, you are allowed to enchant it. So why should this be different than a monk's unarmed strike or that of anyone who chooses it?
To go even further: In the wepaons table unarmed strikes are listed with the following description: An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
So as I understand it they do not count as natural attacks, that's why you also shouldn't be able to cast magic fang or such on it.
Also, as someone already pointed out, there is no equivalent of the improved unarmed strike feat for your body regarding armor that I am aware of, so comparisons as to what you could start enchanting if you are allowed to enchant your fists miss the point IMO.
I consider the full body as a single unarmed attack weapon and regard the mentioning of "fists" in the monk's class description mostly as flavor. So I think the following is allowed:
1) You can enchant your improved unarmed strikes
2) The enchantment always effects only the first type of attacks you make with it. For example, only attacking with your unarmed strikes in the way of a single weapon ("main hand") makes all these attacks being affected by the enchantment. If you use another weapon and those strikes, those strikes are still affected by the enchantment. However, if you take two-weapon fighting and start using the unarmed strike in as both main hand and off-hand, only one will be affected (This could maybe be explained with focusing your mystic energies on one point of your body or such... ;-)), so you would have to enchant the "off-hand" as well.
This should remain balanced and does not contradict RAW I think. But feel free to convince me otherwise - so far I am not :-P
Sangalor, you definately could not take 'unarmed strike' as a bonded item, as an unarmed strike is not an item.
The only reason this possibly works for monks is a specific ability of theirs that calls out that they count as a manufactured weapon for 'spells and effects' that improve those.
You most CERTAINLY cannot enchant your fists. And here's why:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html
:P
Sangalor, you definately could not take 'unarmed strike' as a bonded item, as an unarmed strike is not an item.
The only reason this possibly works for monks is a specific ability of theirs that calls out that they count as a manufactured weapon for 'spells and effects' that improve those.
Looked it up again - you are right. Argh, so many cool builds are not possible now... Well ok, no unarmed strikes as bonded objects then :-)
You most CERTAINLY cannot enchant your fists. And here's why:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html
:P
Great link, thanks! Until now I thought it's OK to use the term "enchant" for the act of enhancing your weapons. Mentally replace that with "enhance" in my posts above, please ;-P
You most CERTAINLY cannot enchant your fists. And here's why:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html
:P
Would you prefer "Enhance with magical endowments"?
While I understand the point of SKR's rant, I think everyone understands what's being discussed.
The imbuing of magical power into a monk's body, for the purposes of enhancing his/her combat accuracy and damage ability.
Fair enough?
I don't think enchanting just the hands is enough. Monks can use their whole body as a weapon (elbows, knees, shins, etc.), therefore the body itself needs the enchantment. Semantics really, I guess.
Actually not semantics at all, it's the rule:
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.
He'd have to also enchant at least his elbows, knees, and feet, but I agree it's his whole body really. Like the saying "his body is registered as a lethal weapon" - The monks attacks may be treated as weapon attacks, but there is no 'weapon' to enchant, and no one part of his body that's equivelent to a weapon - it's all just the monk.
He'd have to also enchant at least his elbows, knees, and feet, but I agree it's his whole body really. Like the saying "his body is registered as a lethal weapon" - The monks attacks may be treated as weapon attacks, but there is no 'weapon' to enchant, and no one part of his body that's equivelent to a weapon - it's all just the monk.
He doesn't have to 'enhance' any specific part of his body. He has to enhance his unarmed strike, which is, per the following, a singular thing:
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
So the enhancement applies to his unarmed strike, which is per RAW, treated as a (single) manufactured weapon for spells or effects that enhance such.
Just being able to be treated as a weapon for the limited purpose of spells and effects isn't the same as being a physical item though. Magic item creation is based off a crafting feat, not a spell, which needs a physical thing, not just a capability to be treated as one for the purpose of buffs.
To create a magic weapon... She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled.
Like noted above Monte Cook's intent was you'd need an extra feat or something to give it that extra level of equivelence. Doens't look like that's changed.
Just being able to be treated as a weapon for the limited purpose of spells and effects isn't the same as being a physical item though. Magic item creation is based off a crafting feat, not a spell, which needs a physical thing, not just a capability to be treated as one for the purpose of buffs.
To create a magic weapon... She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled.Like noted above Monte Cook's intent was you'd need an extra feat or something to give it that extra level of equivelence. Doens't look like that's changed.
Well, here's my (somewhat condensed) line of thought:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves' tools becomes masterwork thieves' tools, and so on. If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect. You can affect 50 pieces of ammunition as if they were one weapon. You decide if the object's appearance changes to reflect this improved quality.
- Feat: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
- A Heat Source
- Tools: Iron, Wood, or Leatherworking
- Supply of Materials
- Caster Level at least three times the enhancement bonus sought (or equivalent in special abilities).
- Access to the necessary spells, for any special abilities.
- "... other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting."
- Skill: Spellcraft
- Skill: Craft (weapons)
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic weapon—half the base price of the item based upon the item's total effective bonus.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
***Off-Point Stuff Snipped***
Creating some weapons may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.
Crafting a magic weapon requires 1 day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price.
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
As an interesting side note, the Monk had better be able to trust the caster...
At the time of creation, the creator must decide if the weapon glows or not as a side-effect of the magic imbued within it. This decision does not affect the price or the creation time, but once the item is finished, the decision is binding.
So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?
So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?
When using his masterwork unarmed strike, yes, that would follow.
So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?
By RAW... Yes. He would get a Non-Magical +1 to all unarmed attack rolls. If the monk were attempting a maneuver using his Unarmed Strike ability, then it should apply there, as well.
EDIT: I see KrispyXIV ninja'ed me!
So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?When using his masterwork unarmed strike, yes, that would follow.
Okie dokie. And while his bones are spontaneously reforming themselves to "Perfect bones" How much con damage should he take.
Also, when his body is reforming itself to perfection how much strength and charisma should he gain?
So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?When using his masterwork unarmed strike, yes, that would follow.Okie dokie. And while his bones are spontaneously reforming themselves to "Perfect bones" How much con damage should he take.
Also, when his body is reforming itself to perfection how much strength and charisma should he gain?
I'm sorry, I don't see where you're going with this. is "Perfect Bones" a new ability that I'm unaware of?
So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?When using his masterwork unarmed strike, yes, that would follow.Okie dokie. And while his bones are spontaneously reforming themselves to "Perfect bones" How much con damage should he take.
Also, when his body is reforming itself to perfection how much strength and charisma should he gain?
None. Its magic, and therefore doesn't worry about such paltry things as physics, genetics, or biology.
I'm sorry, I don't see where you're going with this. is "Perfect Bones" a new ability that I'm unaware of?So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?When using his masterwork unarmed strike, yes, that would follow.Okie dokie. And while his bones are spontaneously reforming themselves to "Perfect bones" How much con damage should he take.
Also, when his body is reforming itself to perfection how much strength and charisma should he gain?
Then I will call them masterwork bones.
Then I will call them masterwork bones.
Except thats not accurate. The monk would have a masterwork unarmed strike... which is an ephemeral 'thing' which can be affected by spells and effects like a manufactured weapon; its not actually a 'thing', it just acts like a 'thing' for spells and effects.
The real key question here, is whether or not 'effects' are defined anywhere. Do feats cause effects? That would make sense, but who knows.
Also, as a note, Improved Natural Attack was ruled against benefitting monks; so while I think there is a strong RAW case for using Craft Magical Arms and Armor on monks, it may not matter when a dev chimes in and issues up a FAQ or errata.
Then I will call them masterwork bones.I'm sorry, I don't see where you're going with this. is "Perfect Bones" a new ability that I'm unaware of?So by this reasoning, if I turned a monk into a masterwork weapon, would he get a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers because he is masterwork?When using his masterwork unarmed strike, yes, that would follow.Okie dokie. And while his bones are spontaneously reforming themselves to "Perfect bones" How much con damage should he take.
Also, when his body is reforming itself to perfection how much strength and charisma should he gain?
Sorry - I wasn't trying to be snarky. I don't have access to UC yet, and wasn't sure if there was a new ability in there that I might've missed.
Following this line of thought, it's not necessarily the monk's bones that are being altered, it's the monk in his entirety.
Sorry - I wasn't trying to be snarky. I don't have access to UC yet, and wasn't sure if there was a new ability in there that I might've missed.Following this line of thought, it's not necessarily the monk's bones that are being altered, it's the monk in his entirety.
Then by that reasoning, since masterwork weapons get a +1 all attack rolls it would follow that the monk would get a +1 to every physical ability/skill he attempted.
Weapons do two things (usually), they strike and do damage. Masterwork weapons confer a +1 accuracy, but not damage. So by the reasoning presented here any physical activity, that doesn't involve dealing damage should get a +1 bonus, because they utilize his newly found masterworked body.
Sorry - I wasn't trying to be snarky. I don't have access to UC yet, and wasn't sure if there was a new ability in there that I might've missed.Following this line of thought, it's not necessarily the monk's bones that are being altered, it's the monk in his entirety.
Then by that reasoning, since masterwork weapons get a +1 all attack rolls it would follow that the monk would get a +1 to every physical ability/skill he attempted.
Weapons do two things (usually), they strike and do damage. Masterwork weapons confer a +1 accuracy, but not damage. So by the reasoning presented here any physical activity, that doesn't involve dealing damage should get a +1 bonus, because they utilize his newly found masterworked body.
Nobody actually implied that the monk would gain anything but a +1 bonus to attack rolls, as per a masterwork weapon (which his Unarmed Strike would be). Assuming anything else is conjuring up fabrications.
Then by that reasoning, since masterwork weapons get a +1 all attack rolls it would follow that the monk would get a +1 to every physical ability/skill he attempted.
Weapons do two things (usually), they strike and do damage. Masterwork weapons confer a +1 accuracy, but not damage. So by the reasoning presented here any physical activity, that doesn't involve dealing damage should get a +1 bonus, because they utilize his newly found masterworked body.
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
The monk would only get the bonus on attack rolls, because that's all a masterwork weapon provides.
Masterwork tools give a +2 circumstance bonus to appropriate skill checks, but the monk's special ability doesn't allow him to be a tool - it allows him to be a weapon.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
|
|
There is a 7) from Inner Sea Magic. Page 16 Spell Tattoos. I don't know what the cost is like v. an Amulet of Mighty Fist, but they do seem to fit the situation of making your hands magic.There seems to be alot of overthinking going on here. Keep it simple...
1) Greater Magic Fang + Permanency + Amulet of Mighty Fists for other additional abilities (RAW)
2) Create Magic Tattoo + Craft Magic Arms and Armor would also be an acceptable compromise, where CMAA is a prerequisite for the ability to apply enhancing tattoos. (Not quite RAW)
3) Enchant other items like "hand wraps" as has been discussed.
4) "Brass" Knuckles (RAW) Note* Of course the material can be altered to deal with certain DR.
5) 3PP feats and abilities as compensation (Not quite RAW)
6) Invent a new Item Creation Feat to cover the apparent lack of capability for enhancement. (Not quite RAW)These are your options, take your pick. I prefer options 1 and 4 myself.
Good catch :)
If your fists were masterwork, you'd be getting a +1 to attack with them. They are not masterwork.
The witch has a spell that can make items masterwork. This would not be an issue.
Threadomancy!
Anyway, on the topic, since this thread was last touched, the Amulet of Mighty Fists has been reduced in price, the Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes has been created, and Pummeling style and Pummeling charge have made unarmed strikes more practical even against things that have a DR the monk can't bypass.