If I gave a troll the Diehard feat (keeping him from falling unconscious when below 0 hit points) does that mean he becomes essentially unstoppable (since he doesn't die at negative constitution mod due to regeneration)?
Nobody is unstoppable.
Your troll could still be slaughtered like a lamb by a trollkiller ranger, a trollbane sword, a volley of fireballs or a death spell.
If I gave a troll the Diehard feat (keeping him from falling unconscious when below 0 hit points) does that mean he becomes essentially unstoppable (since he doesn't die at negative constitution mod due to regeneration)?
I guess so, thats a very cool idea. Although at a certain point you would be looking at the troll falling apart just from sheer damage...maybe Fort saves at certain hurdles
-25-40
-55
Step 1: Deal damage to knock Troll to -Con score.
Step 2: Apply acid or fire to stop its regeneration.
Step 3: Loot dead troll of shiny elven swords.
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If I gave a troll the Diehard feat (keeping him from falling unconscious when below 0 hit points) does that mean he becomes essentially unstoppable (since he doesn't die at negative constitution mod due to regeneration)?
He would certainly be one tough cookie, but I don't think "unstoppable" is the right word as he would just fail to go unconscious should he be knocked to less than zero hit points. Fire, acid, and other regeneration penetrating damage would still drop him down and he could still die via a coup de gras while rendered unconscious or the like, and things like negative levels can take down pretty much anything given enough of them.
It might be interesting though to watch a troll fight who can't be knocked unconscious via standard damage types though.
I said "essentially" unstoppable. I am well aware that there are ways around it.
Also, using fire/acid/whatever at the right time might not be immeidetly obvious. For example, if I GM'd a game that features a shapechanging creature with regeneration (who looks like a human fighter), the players aren't likely going to think "let's finish it off with fire!"--at least, not anymore than they would with a normal human fighter combatant.
In such a case, the encounter may well end in an ongoing stalemate or with the PCs retreating.
While at negative hp the troll would be staggered - meaning it couldn't do much but absorb more damage. It couldn't fight, it couldn't flee. It could only stand there and get skewered.
The second it stops behaving as "disabled" it falls unconscious.
So, yes, it could continue functioning in a limited capacity indefinitely but it would effectively be out of combat as long as people kept doing at least 5 points of damage per round to overcome the regeneration.
As soon as the party smacks it with even 1 point of fire or acid damage that troll dies - literally falling to pieces.
That being said, it's still a great pairing of qualities. I can hardly wait to put one in my own campaign.
If I gave a troll the Diehard feat (keeping him from falling unconscious when below 0 hit points) does that mean he becomes essentially unstoppable (since he doesn't die at negative constitution mod due to regeneration)?
Creative Director
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Diehard is a GREAT feat for a creature that has regeneration.
That said... it's the GM's responsibility to let his players know what's going on; he's the only window the PCs have into the game. It's not fair for a GM to not describe a troll at –50 hit points as "unwounded," nor is it fair to not describe it at all. You should let the PCs know that the troll is still going strong despite HORRIFIC wounds that seem to be healing themselves, and once he should be dead... let the PCs know that. "He's so torn apart he should be dead, but he doesn't care. He attacks again!" That way, the PCs get hints from the GM that they're fighting an unusual foe and that they'll need to take unusual steps to finish him off.
Also, using fire/acid/whatever at the right time might not be immeidetly obvious. For example, if I GM'd a game that features a shapechanging creature with regeneration (who looks like a human fighter), the players aren't likely going to think "let's finish it off with fire!"--at least, not anymore than they would with a normal human fighter combatant.In such a case, the encounter may well end in an ongoing stalemate or with the PCs retreating.
My players always stab things with fire. Always. Even when they know it's just a halfling rogue and not some eldritch abomination posing as a halfling. They've been burned too many times (no pun intended) by things with regeneration attacking them when they are trying to loot the bodies. Most keep a fire or acid dagger in their pack just for such purposes.
So my players have learned to be paranoid? At least they've learned to survive in a world full of regenerating shapechangers.
While at negative hp the troll would be staggered - meaning it couldn't do much but absorb more damage. It couldn't fight, it couldn't flee. It could only stand there and get skewered.
Huh?
"Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition."
It looks to me like a staggered troll could still fight reasonably well. It can move, attack, or make a partial charge. The only thing it really loses out on is rend (since it can't make two attacks).
While at negative hp the troll would be staggered - meaning it couldn't do much but absorb more damage. It couldn't fight, it couldn't flee. It could only stand there and get skewered.Huh?
"Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition."
It looks to me like a staggered troll could still fight reasonably well. It can move, attack, or make a partial charge. The only thing it really loses out on is rend (since it can't make two attacks).
It says in the feat description that "If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious." The Disabled condition says "Unless the action increased the disabled character's hit points, he is now in negative hit points and dying."
The feat seems a bit circular to me. It says that the benefactor should behave as if disabled but they are in fact staggered.
To be honest I think you could read it either way. I only played the devil's advocate because I thought you felt this combination broke the rules (and was a bad thing).
Deal damage equal to its Constitution score (after it hits 0). It will fall unconscious but not die. Regeneration rules + Diehard rules.
It would just be a troll with more hitpoints.
Hmm, Half-Black Dragon Troll with a ring of fire resist and the die hard feat.....
Diehard is a GREAT feat for a creature that has regeneration.
That said... it's the GM's responsibility to let his players know what's going on; he's the only window the PCs have into the game. It's not fair for a GM to not describe a troll at –50 hit points as "unwounded," nor is it fair to not describe it at all. You should let the PCs know that the troll is still going strong despite HORRIFIC wounds that seem to be healing themselves, and once he should be dead... let the PCs know that. "He's so torn apart he should be dead, but he doesn't care. He attacks again!" That way, the PCs get hints from the GM that they're fighting an unusual foe and that they'll need to take unusual steps to finish him off.
Thank you! I had one GM once had us going up against a Half Clay Golem in full plate, and neglected to let us know that all the massive damage we thought we were doing was actually nothing. We were not amused.
I ran a group of monster PCs through part of Shackled City once. The troll was the only survivor of the 4th adventure.
Diehard is a GREAT feat for a creature that has regeneration.
That said... it's the GM's responsibility to let his players know what's going on; he's the only window the PCs have into the game. It's not fair for a GM to not describe a troll at –50 hit points as "unwounded," nor is it fair to not describe it at all. You should let the PCs know that the troll is still going strong despite HORRIFIC wounds that seem to be healing themselves, and once he should be dead... let the PCs know that. "He's so torn apart he should be dead, but he doesn't care. He attacks again!" That way, the PCs get hints from the GM that they're fighting an unusual foe and that they'll need to take unusual steps to finish him off.
That is a very disturbing and awesome way of describing the fight. Definitely gonna steal this for a horror campaign...
If I gave a troll the Diehard feat (keeping him from falling unconscious when below 0 hit points) does that mean he becomes essentially unstoppable (since he doesn't die at negative constitution mod due to regeneration)?
What you really want to do is give the troll diehard, and the half dragon template. I mean, then you're screwed (resistance/immunity to acid/fire)
Wait, does pathfinder have templates?
If I gave a troll the Diehard feat (keeping him from falling unconscious when below 0 hit points) does that mean he becomes essentially unstoppable (since he doesn't die at negative constitution mod due to regeneration)?What you really want to do is give the troll diehard, and the half dragon template. I mean, then you're screwed (resistance/immunity to acid/fire)
Wait, does pathfinder have templates?
Yes, it still has templates.
I threw a troll with die hard at my players last night and it was a lot of fun to see the looks on their faces as it went negative and then kept attacking.
Thanks for the great idea!
Hyrum.
I threw a troll with die hard at my players last night and it was a lot of fun to see the looks on their faces as it went negative and then kept attacking.
Thanks for the great idea!
Hyrum.
How would they know its HP went negative? It would just have a handful more hit points than a normal troll. I doubt they would even notice unless everyone is fudging RAW on this (which seems like an odd thing to do given how they think they found some funny RAW combination)
How would they know its HP went negative? It would just have a handful more hit points than a normal troll. I doubt they would even notice unless everyone is fudging RAW on this (which seems like an odd thing to do given how they think they found some funny RAW combination)I threw a troll with die hard at my players last night and it was a lot of fun to see the looks on their faces as it went negative and then kept attacking.
Thanks for the great idea!
Hyrum.
Actually by RAW they would notice since the troll is only taking standard actions instead of full attack actions. That's a big tip off right there.
In storyline mode though:
People tend to notice when it's guts are hanging out, it's spine is completely severed, the kneecap is missing and it's gnawing on you with only half a jaw, with the bits it gnawed off are falling out of that huge hole in it's throat where the rogue caught it last turn?
(Heck for a more snarky return reply how do I know I can't keep swinging since the character doesn't actually know what a turn is... tongue firmly in cheek here.)
How would they know its HP went negative? It would just have a handful more hit points than a normal troll. I doubt they would even notice unless everyone is fudging RAW on this (which seems like an odd thing to do given how they think they found some funny RAW combination)
It became obvious once the barbarian critted with his great axe for 81 points of damage and split it from shoulder to crotch and it kept attacking.
Hyrum.
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What you really want to do is give the troll diehard, and the half dragon template. I mean, then you're screwed (resistance/immunity to acid/fire)
Actually just one up that a little. Troll with Red Dragon Template and a ring of minor energy resistance acid.
Now to kill it you need to take it into the negative then do 11 points of acid damage to it in a round!
Troll (Half-Red Dragon, Advanced)
This tall creature has rough, green and red hide. Its hands end in claws, and its bestial face has a hideous, tusked underbite. Two large bat link wings protrude from its back.Troll CR 5 + 2 + 1: CR 8
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 20; (+4 Dex, +11 natural, –1 size)
hp 93 (6d8+66); regeneration 5 (acid)
Fort +16, Ref +6, Will +3
Immune sleep, paralysis, fire; Resist acid 10
Offense
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft (average)
Melee bite +15 (1d8+11), 2 claws +16 (1d8+11)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d8+16), breath weapon 30’ cone fire reflex DC 24 1/day
Statistics
Str 32, Dex 18, Con 33, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Base Atk +4; CMB +16; CMD 30
Weapon Focus(Claw), Die Hard, Improved Natural Weapon (claw)
Skills Intimidate +9, Perception +8
Languages Giant
Equipment: Ring of Minor Acid Resistance
This bad boy and some friends will be in this years Cheese Grinder for sure!
How would they know its HP went negative? It would just have a handful more hit points than a normal troll. I doubt they would even notice unless everyone is fudging RAW on this (which seems like an odd thing to do given how they think they found some funny RAW combination)It became obvious once the barbarian critted with his great axe for 81 points of damage and split it from shoulder to crotch and it kept attacking.
Hyrum.
I would imagine that is kind of standard for a Troll
And that is what Necromancey is for. That or a good stat damage poison. At the very least all regenerating creatures must have a constituiton and if that is brought to 0 it dead for sure. But that would discovered after days of running from the thing.
What you really want to do is give the troll diehard, and the half dragon template. I mean, then you're screwed (resistance/immunity to acid/fire)Actually just one up that a little. Troll with Red Dragon Template and a ring of minor energy resistance acid.
Now to kill it you need to take it into the negative then do 11 points of acid damage to it in a round!
This bad boy and some friends will be in this years Cheese Grinder for sure!
Troll (Half-Red Dragon, Advanced)
This tall creature has rough, green and red hide. Its hands end in claws, and its bestial face has a hideous, tusked underbite. Two large bat link wings protrude from its back.Troll CR 5 + 2 + 1: CR 8
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 20; (+4 Dex, +11 natural, –1 size)
hp 93 (6d8+66); regeneration 5 (acid)
Fort +16, Ref +6, Will +3
Immune sleep, paralysis, fire; Resist acid 10
Offense
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft (average)
Melee bite +15 (1d8+11), 2 claws +16 (1d8+11)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d8+16), breath weapon 30’ cone fire reflex DC 24 1/day
Statistics
Str 32, Dex 18, Con 33, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Base Atk +4; CMB +16; CMD 30
Weapon Focus(Claw), Die Hard, Improved Natural Weapon (claw)
Skills Intimidate +9, Perception +8
Languages Giant
Equipment: Ring of Minor Acid Resistance
RUN!!!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't know, a Half-Black/Green & Half-Red dragon Troll with an item to help protect against Death spells can be pretty dang unbeatable.
Years and years ago, Chris Claremont and John Byrne were asked why their "New X-Men" weren't fighting many of the classic X-Men villains, like the Blob or Unus the Untouchable. Their reply applies to D&D characters fighting your Skippy the Wonder Troll:
Step One - [Cyclops / The druid with move earth] digs a big pit.
Step Two - [Jean / The sorcerer with telekinesis] picks up [Unus / Skippy] and drops him in the hole. Appropriate use of Pull / Push work just as well.
Step Three - [Colossus / The Barbarian] puts a big rock on top.
I might also direct your attention to Silent Rage, where Chuck Norris fights a deranged undead with massive regeneration. Injecting poison doesn't work. Bullets don't work. Throwing him out a 10th-story window right into the path of a semi tractor-trailer doesn't work. So, now it's time for kung fu.
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Step One - [Cyclops / The druid with move earth] digs a big pit.Step Two - [Jean / The sorcerer with telekinesis] picks up [Unus / Skippy] and drops him in the hole. Appropriate use of Pull / Push work just as well.
Step Three - [Colossus / The Barbarian] puts a big rock on top.
You've been watching Heroes, haven't you?
Years and years ago, Chris Claremont and John Byrne were asked why their "New X-Men" weren't fighting many of the classic X-Men villains, like the Blob or Unus the Untouchable. Their reply applies to D&D characters fighting your Skippy the Wonder Troll:
Step One - [Cyclops / The druid with move earth] digs a big pit.
Step Two - [Jean / The sorcerer with telekinesis] picks up [Unus / Skippy] and drops him in the hole. Appropriate use of Pull / Push work just as well.
Step Three - [Colossus / The Barbarian] puts a big rock on top.
Actually his name is Joey the Troll.
Easier way to defeat said troll
Step One: Party fighters hit in a couple times getting it near 0
Step Two: Mage casts disintegrate (reduces it to 0 or less = ash)
Step Three: Pick up Ring of Minor Acid Resistance
Necromance flies up seeing troll running around
Round 1: Enervation
Round 2: Enervation
Round 3: Enervation (may have ended in round 2)
Troll now has on average 7 negative levels = dead
Desparate party
Step 1: party drops open portable hole
Step 2: get troll in hole
Step 3: toss in bag of holding
Step 4: cry about loss of over 23,000gp in items
Skippy the Wonder Troll cannot be telekinesed, he weighs too much.
Thankfully, most lesser giants are easily dealt with thanks to a change in creature type and Charm Person. A friendly troll is better than an angry one. :)
OMG!!! I did not notice said change in Pathfinder!!!!!
Wow, that is huge, litterally.
That means Enlarge person works on Storm Giants now!
<evil cackle> <quickly makes a note, all giants in TCG now have potions of enlarge person>
Thank you so much for pointing that out!
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Knock it down, encase it in molten gold, and let it sink to the bottom of the ocean. Worked in Ninja Scroll.
Reading the Diehard feat, I get the impression that the text in the second paragraph supersedes the "act as if disabled" thing in the first paragraph. Thus while doing a standard action would do you 1 point of damage, you would not fall unconscious since you are already at negative hit points.
Thankfully, most lesser giants are easily dealt with thanks to a change in creature type and Charm Person. A friendly troll is better than an angry one. :)OMG!!! I did not notice said change in Pathfinder!!!!!
Wow, that is huge, litterally.
That means Enlarge person works on Storm Giants now!
<evil cackle> <quickly makes a note, all giants in TCG now have potions of enlarge person>
Thank you so much for pointing that out!
1) Summon Nature's Ally IX
2) Enlarge Person3) ???
4) Profit
I recently used a quartet of troll fighters with Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Diehard, and In Harm's Way to great effect!
I called them "the myrmidons" the elite guard of a storm giant king, though smaller than other giants in the land, they were feared by all for their inability to die.
The party's dwarven paladin had to fight all four while on a solo quest. They faced off in the king's throne room (much to the king's amusement). They were still vulnerable to fire, but after trudging through a swamp to get the castle, the dwarf didn't have any left that were dry or viable. There were also flaming braziers with hot coals hanging from the ceiling, but they were hung to be accessible to giants, not dwarves.
The dwarf would focus on one at a time trying to wear them down, but due to the Bodyguard feat, the dwarf had a really hard time hitting them. Furthermore, whenever he did hit one, a fresh one would jump in and take the hit instead. It took FOREVER just to slow the damn things down.
He never did kill them.
Eventually the king grew bored of the "entertainment" and called off his myrmidons. Even though the trolls' EL was a fair bit lower than the dwarf's level it nevertheless remains a fight he fears having to repeat in the future.
old combo, I had a troll along these lines in an epic 3.5 game years ago. Red Half-Dragon Troll Ranger, he also had the masochist feat from I think the Book of Vile Darkness, where he got a +2 bonus to Str everytime he took more than 50 points of damage in one shot. The fighter of the group wouldn't stop hitting him despite the cries of the rest of the group. Eventually his strength got to about 60 and he stood up and one-shotted the fighters epic Storm Horse, then they decided that maybe a tactical retreat was in order.
I recently used a quartet of troll fighters with Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Diehard, and In Harm's Way to great effect!
I called them "the myrmidons" the elite guard of a storm giant king, though smaller than other giants in the land, they were feared by all for their inability to die.
The party's dwarven paladin had to fight all four while on a solo quest. They faced off in the king's throne room (much to the king's amusement). They were still vulnerable to fire, but after trudging through a swamp to get the castle, the dwarf didn't have any left that were dry or viable. There were also flaming braziers with hot coals hanging from the ceiling, but they were hung to be accessible to giants, not dwarves.
The dwarf would focus on one at a time trying to wear them down, but due to the Bodyguard feat, the dwarf had a really hard time hitting them. Furthermore, whenever he did hit one, a fresh one would jump in and take the hit instead. It took FOREVER just to slow the damn things down.
He never did kill them.
Eventually the king grew bored of the "entertainment" and called off his myrmidons. Even though the trolls' EL was a fair bit lower than the dwarf's level it nevertheless remains a fight he fears having to repeat in the future.
This is a great idea. I've already surprised my players once when I used a petrified minotaur skeletal champion with Bodyguard to ruin their day against an Olman sorcerer. Regenerating bodyguards...nyexcellent...
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What you really want to do is give the troll diehard, and the half dragon template. I mean, then you're screwed (resistance/immunity to acid/fire)Actually just one up that a little. Troll with Red Dragon Template and a ring of minor energy resistance acid.
Now to kill it you need to take it into the negative then do 11 points of acid damage to it in a round!
This bad boy and some friends will be in this years Cheese Grinder for sure!
Troll (Half-Red Dragon, Advanced)
This tall creature has rough, green and red hide. Its hands end in claws, and its bestial face has a hideous, tusked underbite. Two large bat link wings protrude from its back.Troll CR 5 + 2 + 1: CR 8
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 20; (+4 Dex, +11 natural, –1 size)
hp 93 (6d8+66); regeneration 5 (acid)
Fort +16, Ref +6, Will +3
Immune sleep, paralysis, fire; Resist acid 10
Offense
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft (average)
Melee bite +15 (1d8+11), 2 claws +16 (1d8+11)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d8+16), breath weapon 30’ cone fire reflex DC 24 1/day
Statistics
Str 32, Dex 18, Con 33, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12
Base Atk +4; CMB +16; CMD 30
Weapon Focus(Claw), Die Hard, Improved Natural Weapon (claw)
Skills Intimidate +9, Perception +8
Languages Giant
Equipment: Ring of Minor Acid Resistance
/sigh, people always over complicate everything.
Just disintegrate him.
/sigh, people always over complicate everything.
Just disintegrate him.
I know right? Because you always have disintegrate when you're fighting CR 8 creatures, right? Tell me I'm right.
And even if they do manage to have a scroll of it, this monstrosity has a wonderful fortitude save so good luck.
Also, whether or not he passes the save, he is still taking hp damage, which can't kill him while his regeneration lasts.
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/sigh, people always over complicate everything.
Just disintegrate him.
I know right? Because you always have disintegrate when you're fighting CR 8 creatures, right? Tell me I'm right.
And even if they do manage to have a scroll of it, this monstrosity has a wonderful fortitude save so good luck.
1. I can easily have access to it in scroll form by this level, with a fairly easy check to use.
2. Even on a failed save, you take half damage. If your total hp is below 0, by any amount, your dust (yes, I still disintegrate you even if you make your save and even if you would not otherwise be killed.)
No need to have a half dragon troll. A Half-Fiend Troll gains acid and fire resist 10. Plus other bundles of defensive goodies:
Resist cold and electricity, DR/Magic, SR, flight.....
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2. Even on a failed save, you take half damage. If your total hp is below 0, by any amount, your dust (yes, I still disintegrate you even if you make your save and even if you would not otherwise be killed.)
Perhaps you are thinking of another spell. 5d6 on failed disintegrate, nowhere near 'half'.