One of my players (a lv 6 fighter) wants to become undead.
He doesn't really care to become a vampire, lich or any particular type of undead, he just wants the basic undead template.
Right now, all PCs in our group are lv 6 (fighter, rogue, sorcerer).
Currently, the fighter is already way more powerful than the other PCs, so I want to make sure this imbalance doesn't increase further.
If I gave the fighter the undead template, how could I keep the group balanced?
Should I give the fighter a level adjustment, like maybe a penalty of 1 level?
Or should I just give the other players bonus a feat so that everybody receives some sort of boost?
Also, just to clarify:
If the fighter becomes an intelligent undead, he can regenerate HP naturally, right?
But he would determine his HP by his CHA score, rather than his CON score?
Since he will still be intelligent, rather than becoming mindless, should he still be subjected to mind-affecting enchantments?
How about ability drain/dmg?
Among other things, Undead get:
Darkvision 60 feet.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
• Immunity to death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
• Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
• Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
• Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
• Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
The only one that mentions Intelligence is the healing factor. The others (such as immunity to mind affecting spells and such) have no such limitation.
Myself, I wouldn't allow him to just "get the template". I'd make him choose a creature to become. A skeleton, to me, seems appropriate. (and easy). If you do not do that, at least tell the PC what he looks like now. He can't be "undead" and just look normal- not without substantial magic. Becoming a monster should bestow penalties to him beyond the stat adjustments and such. Animals will detect him and shy away, people will see that he is dead and shy away, and so on.
Whether or not it is "too powerful" or not depends on your campaign. oddly enough, at lower levels it'll make less of a difference than at higher levels due to the things they are immune to. The higher you get, the more prevalent they are, and so the "powers" of the PC will become more obvious.
How to balance it out? +1 or +2 LA or so, or give the other PC's something to compensate. Sit with the group and talkto them about it. Do the rest want any sort of adjustments? To become were-critters or half fiends or celestials or some such?
-S
Sit with the group and talkto them about it. Do the rest want any sort of adjustments? To become were-critters or half fiends or celestials or some such?
The player who wants to become Undead is a total Munchkin. He wants to be the best at everything.
The other players are much more easygoing and don't seem to care if he gains the undead template. They didn't ask for any extra buffs or powers for themselves, but I'd prefer to keep things fair for them.
The Munchkin PC told me he wants to be like Arthas, a character from Warcraft III. I've never played the game, but I gather that Arthas is some kind of Death Knight.
I've seen a template for Death Knight in other 3.5 books, but I'd rather stick with PFRPG rules for the sake of consistency.
So, you think the undead template is powerful enough to warrant an LA +1 penalty AND bonus feats to other players? I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with the PC becoming a skeleton, but keeping his INT.
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At least you've got the Munchkin problem spotted. Unless you're running an undead campaign, this concept reeks of powergaming. Arthas from Warcraft was an insane warrior, possessed by such a desire for revenge that he became a death knight with amazing physical prowess, great powers, and near invincibility.
What's this guy going to do when you're in town relaxing? What merchant is going to purchase that extra +1 breastplate from a corpse? How's the party going to sleep with the smell of rotting flesh nearby? Sounds like he's not a team player, but that's just my Munchkin radar going off.
Well, he'd have to BECOME undead in some way, and that's a good way to adjust his power. He doesn't need to get additional penalties or a level adjustment for being undead, he could get them for becoming undead.
I'd make the undead creature an skeleton, though he still gets to keep his body (if he wanted to be somewhat like Arthas). To create an intelligent skeleton, I'd rule a Create Undead would be needed at least. To keep the body intact, a permanent Preserve Corpse (this would not however, heal any damage dealt to the body, so after a few fights maybe the body wouldn't be so whole anyway).
As such, he'd need to contact a sorcerer or wizard bent on necromantic magic that is at least 11th level. This is a big force in the world, and as such he'll probably require something special to cast these spells. Most necromancers are evil, and might require a personal sacrifice; for example, they might require a powerful magic item hidden in a far-away ruin. What he doesn't mention (but that the players can find out by research) is that whomever touches the object is cursed with extreme feelings of low esteem, suffering -4 to charisma and -2 to will saves.
Also, remember that the necromancer might decide to keep him under personal control once created - there are reasons not to trust a necromancer offering to transform one into an undead creature.
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Also, if he wants to be like Arthas he wouldn't need to convert to undeath really. I don't think Arthas ever dies, in fact the Warcraft version of undeath doesn't at all involve dying (though it's QUITE common XD). Gargoyles are undead in warcraft, for example.
If I were to do Arthas in PFRPG, I'd make him a fighter with a few levels of cleric. His main abilities (except being good in close combat) are hurting the living/healing the dead (Inflict spells), increasing power of nearby undead (any number of mass buffs), sacrificing nearby undead to heal him (don't know any such spell), and at high levels animating the dead (animate dead).
He's a fighter/cleric.
If I use the skeleton template, as some of you have suggested, the PC would receive extra DR. His AC is already so darn high, extra DR would be a pain.
If I were to do Arthas in PFRPG, I'd make him a fighter with a few levels of cleric.
That's what I was thinking.
But if he chose to cast Create Undead/Gentle Repose on himself, how would he do that?He must be alive to cast spells.
Is there some way to delay the spells so that they activate after his death?
Since Clerics can't cast gentle repose, he'd probably end up as a skeleton. Otherwise, he'd have to go with a Wizard or Sorc.
This same PC is also a Changeling (Eberron). If he were to become undead, would he still be able to shape change?
If he kept his skin intact with Gentle Repose (and an additional permanency spell) then I'd say yes.
But if he becomes a skeleton, then I'd say his shape change ability would be forfeit.
Does that sound about right?
I'm assuming the character is evil already, correct? Since otherwise, the whole "coming back from death as an evil monster" bit would be a problem...
If he were running in my game, I'd tell him No. Just plain and simple no. How is a medium-level fighter going to become undead? What's the guarantee that any being that CAN turn him into undead, can turn him into Intelligent, self-aware undead? Or more the point, why would they?
If I use the skeleton template, as some of you have suggested, the PC would receive extra DR. His AC is already so darn high, extra DR would be a pain.
Yes, but should he become a skeleton he might have to refit his armor if it's heavy. Full plate and the like has to be made specifically to your body, and a skeleton's body is quite different than the body while it was alive. This is a huge cost and might lower his AC a bit until he gets a full replacement. Also, if he would get for example that -4 to charisma, as well as charisma being a dump stat for most fighters, his hit points will be quite bad as a skeleton. Hard to make the bones crack, but when they do he's screwed.
If I were to do Arthas in PFRPG, I'd make him a fighter with a few levels of cleric.That's what I was thinking.
But if he chose to cast Create Undead/Gentle Repose on himself, how would he do that?
He must be alive to cast spells.
Is there some way to delay the spells so that they activate after his death?
Oh, I'm talking about two different things. If he wants to be an intelligent undead, he'd have to have someone ELSE cast Create Undead on him. If he wants to keep his skin intact he'd need to have Gentle Repose cast by himself or someone else.
However, if I were to make Arthas as he appeared at the end of Warcraft 3, I'd make him as a live human fighter (3?)/Cleric (6?) somewhere around that at least. From what I know, he never dies and is as such technically not something that would count as undead in D&D.
This same PC is also a Changeling (Eberron). If he were to become undead, would he still be able to shape change?
If he kept his skin intact with Gentle Repose (and an additional permanency spell) then I'd say yes.
But if he becomes a skeleton, then I'd say his shape change ability would be forfeit.
Does that sound about right?
I'd say no, under all circumstances. The shapechange is based on control over ones body and bodily functions - something closely tied to constitution. I think it's fair to say that as an undead his anatomy is so different he can't chapechange.
Actually, there might be two templates that are more or less made for this, though they are in the 3.5 Book of Vile Darkness. I think they are called Bone Creature and Corpse Creature.
Still, remember that the creation of intelligent undead requires vast evil powers, and most who have this won't give it up for nothing. I don't think he should gain the template in a matter of days, let him wait a bit, until maybe around level 8-10 depending on how fast you level. Make him work for it, and make him come up with a good RP reason for it. Does his character actually strive to become undead, out of some fascination of them? In that case, he should really invest some ranks in knowledge (religion). And so on.
If he wants to be undead so badly, tell him to start taking levels in either Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) or Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm). Dread Necromancers become liches at level 20 and gain gradual undead traits leading up to that, and Walkers in the Waste become dry liches at level 10 and gain gradual undead traits leading up to that.
OP if you don't want it in your game, have the fighter contact an organization that'll convert him to undead (necropolitan would be a good choice from libre mortis).
Then right before he's supposed to undergo the ceremony, have an evil necromancer show up and rebuke the some of the friendly undead into attacking the PC's. Make him slightly overpowered and when the party is on the ropes have a good cleric show up and obliterate the remaining undead with a turn attempt. If at the end of that he still wants to be undead, let him and let him take turn resistance as a fighter feat.
According to Warcraft rpg deathknight is a prestige class, but not an undead, though undead can become deathknights. I do not think Arthas was actually ever undead by D&D terms, though he did get some undead features.
A balanced way to do things is to create a prestige class, maybe look up a copy from warcraft rpg.
Alternatively there are some feats in Libris Mortis that make a character more undead like.
I decided that he will not be allowed to turn himself undead. The mechanics just don't make sense. Another (very powerful) wizard must transform him.
He is not currently evil, though his actions are becoming increasingly evil and chaotic, so an alignment change isn't too far away.
I'll wait for him to reach level 10 or 11 before allowing him to become undead and I'll probably make it part of a massive, life-threatening quest.
To compensate the other players, maybe the burst of energy released from his transformation also imbues them with extra powers. It wouldn't be anything mind-blowing, maybe just Darkvision, Fleet, Skill Focus and/or Natural Armor +1.
Also, I may ask the undead fighter to roll a d100 every round, with a 3%-5% chance that he might lose control of himself for the entire round while the evil spirits inside him take over. Randomly attacking his own comrades might even make him regret becoming evil in the first place. Maybe I'd even increase the odds by 1% every level.
Would that be too crippling?
I'm starting to come up with some ideas:
If we end up playing to higher levels (lv 15 or lv 16) and his fighter becomes too powerful, I may end up turning him into an NPC, who could serve as the BBEG. The player would have to roll a new character, but having to bring his previous character to justice might teach him a lesson.
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I know it was mentioned before, but the Necropolitan template is actually pretty good at making someone undead without giving them the kung-fu vampire template too. You lose a level for death and pay xp for the transformation. There are also potential pitfalls like failing the saving throw to become a necropolitan, being subject to rebuking and damage from positive energy.
I played a LG necropolitan Archivist of Jergal (doomscribe) and it was a lot of fun. The character wasn't any more powerful than the other characters of the same ECL and his undeath didn't impact on the game too much (Thay-controlled Wizard's Reach and Plane of Shadow). Lots of great RP potential because he always asked the living creatures they encountered how they felt, if it was cold, what they ate today and how it tasted (sad sigh as he half-remembers the taste of bacon). He wasn't fond of other undead though since they tended towards evil and he was LG (the living are our friends, not food).
The thing that killed him was his lack of a negative HP reserve. He was destroyed when he was brought to -1 HP, whereas a living PC would have had a chance for survival.
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he only wants to be undead for all of the immunites< all munchkins are the same. whats his cha and dont let him swap or sac his CON stat, he would never have made it that far without it. i LOVE toying with munchkins so i would give someone "invisbilty to undead" as a spell like ability^^. and give another "command undead" as a spell like ability.
then everyone gets a undead related special ability, he gets to BECOME undead and everyone else get better at dealing with undead^^ also dont make healing easy on him if he is allowed to become undead< its a major drawback to not have most good clerics willing to heal you.
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he only wants to be undead for all of the immunites...
Well, where's the fun in that? :)
Seriously, if the player is only doing it to win D&D, then I would disallow it and suggest some other options that grant similar bonuses without the cheesy topping (eg. multi-class into undead bloodline sorcerer or bone oracle).
whats his cha and dont let him swap or sac his CON stat, he would never have made it that far without it.
Surprisingly, his CHA is 14, which is the same as his CON. So no loss of HP for him.
also dont make healing easy on him
Yeah, definitely. He'd have to purchase Inflict potions, which would probably be exceedingly rare, expensive and/or contraband.
if the player is only doing it to win D&D, then I would disallow it
I've been tempted to disallow many things, but I hate saying "No" in a world of fantasy and magic, where anything is possible. Instead, I try to put my GM powers to use and come up with some sort of acceptable workaround.
I know it was mentioned before, but the Necropolitan template is actually pretty good at making someone undead without giving them the kung-fu vampire template too.
Necropolitan sounds pretty cool. I'll have to look around for that book since I don't own it.
Final Question:
This same munchkin is always trying to haggle the price of equipment by rolling Diplomacy. My other players are more than happy to pay market price, but this guy is always angling for a better deal. It's getting pretty obnoxious. What kind of response should an NPC merchant give when he tries to haggle?
Depending on the setting, alignments, and so on, I'd probably allow it, but then face the character with these obstacles, and NOT GO EASY with them either:
Healing and the Party Cleric: Healing is going to be incredibly hard. The cleric's heal spells are deadly to him now, and the party cleric, most likely bieng good-aligned, would have moral issues with memorizing harm spells, AND using his spells to aid a creature of undeath. What would his fellow clergy think if they found out he was healing undead? Would he be cast out? Would the church even allow the cleric to accompany undead around? The cleric might be able to be allowed to hang out with the undead if he convinced them it was assisting good and rightous causes, and if he did not expose himself to it's taint by healing it. That leaves the undead looking for other sources of healing, and that's a big one for a fighter.
Civilized people: Most civilized towns, farmsteads, even travellers on the road, will run and scream at the sight of a skeleton/zombie/vampire/ghoul/etc. walking down the road at them. Undead have a huge stigma surrounding them, as they are (with very few exceptions) evil creatures of death. Few people would want anything to do with him, and just getting near a town he might be attacked on sight by the guards. Even if he does convince them that he means no harm, I highly doubt they'd still let him IN the town. If he IS able to convince his way in by some miracle, It would likely be only with a high profile guard contingent escorting him around, and only to areas they allow him. He'd be watched like a hawk.
Selling/purchasing items: He's not going to have much luck using diplomacy to barter if most merchants won't even get within 50 yards of him. Those that he IS able to get close to, he's going to be using diplomacy to convince them to just sell to him at all. Most likely his only choice for selling loot and buying items is to wait outside town and give the party his gold and let them go in with his shopping list, and hope the party rogue doesen't want a cut for doing the grocery shopping for him.
Pleasures of the living: If the party encounters situations in which they get to revel in things such as wine, women, song, good food, or any other such pleasures, he's sitting on the sidelines brooding about death while the living party has fun. In my campaigns, a lot of social situations happen in town around feasts, parties, hunts, festivals, and so on, which I use to connect the party members to the NPC characters and town in a more personal way. The undead character wouldn't get much chance for these social encounters, and would also miss out on their benefits such as friends who can help with supplies, information, adventure sideplots, and so on.
Biological functions: Anything that is based off of biological effects would not work on him. Potions, spells, and magical items that alter these things would be innefective on him. What if the party got their hands on a bag full of potions of fire resistance before going into the Lair of the Fire Lord? Everyone else is shrugging off those fire elementals except the undead who's running in circles trying to put himself out...
Hunted: There are many churches and clerics that specifically hunt undead. Even though he might not necessarily (yet) be evil, that matters little to many of the fanatical and devouted undead slayers who scour the land to purge it of every last undead. He very well might draw the attention of one of these churches and have to continually battle off clerics, paladins, and inquisitors sent to destroy him. Most likely he won't seek a non-violent solution and just kill them outright. This might get especially awkward when he's trying to explain to the local law of the land why he's killed all of these priests, and that he's really a good guy. Qeue more clerics and hunters, this time backed by the local militia... perhaps even hired adventurers... and so on... and so on...
Necromantic Control: Many villains are necromancers. Necromancers have many great ways of dealing with undead, including controlling them. He could very well be controlled into becoming one of their minions, or coerced into performing tasks and side jobs for one, maybe even without the party knowing about the Necromancers influence.
No HP negatives: He can't go unconcious and then be revived. Negatives are instant death for him. Again, a huge issue when healing isn't readily available.
Honestly, i'd probably go for bieng undead as a player just for all of the fun RP situations that will pop up from it, but i'm thinking that's not the reason he wants to become undead. He wants the uber stats from it and is hoping you'll just gloss over all the drawbacks so he can run around bieng a superhero munchkin. I'd let him go for it and then show him what it truely means to be undead. There's a /reason/ undead hide out in dark, out of the way dungeons.
The Skeletal Champion template would probably be the easiest to use, at least from PF Core, to make a PC an undead character. Note that it gets two bonus racial HD though, plus an increase in BAB, feats, hps, skills, and feats for said HD. I'd probably say that in undergoing the process the character must die and would then lose a level (an actual level, not gain a permanent negative level). But then upon being made into a Skeletal Champion he gains the two HD. And then I'd treat him as a character of his total HD for purposes of gaining experience. Possibly even provide a +1 level adjustment on top.
If you have access to Libris Mortis.. there is the Necropolitan, which is just "undead". They pay for their state by losing a level, just as if they had died and brought back with a simple Raise Dead. Even then, if memory serves, their "undead resurection" is not guaranteed either.
I think gravetouched ghoul is a worthwhile template to throw at your player. It's a +2 LA template so you'd probably have to come up with some custom rules but it definitely fits with intelligent undead idea.
One trick you could do is do some off camera advancement, each of the other characters get +2 levels in a class they want and your fighter died and somehow came back as a ghoul.
Considering that pathfinder is a bit more powerful than 3.x I'd even be tempted to say that gravetouched ghoul is equivalent to a +1 LA template so you might only penalize him one level. 2 levels is pretty lethal.
The Skeletal Champion template would probably be the easiest to use, at least from PF Core, to make a PC an undead character. Note that it gets two bonus racial HD though, plus an increase in BAB, feats, hps, skills, and feats for said HD. I'd probably say that in undergoing the process the character must die and would then lose a level (an actual level, not gain a permanent negative level). But then upon being made into a Skeletal Champion he gains the two HD. And then I'd treat him as a character of his total HD for purposes of gaining experience. Possibly even provide a +1 level adjustment on top.
This is what I would recommend.
My Legacy of Fire campaign consists entirely of undead PCs. In 3.5, I've found that a strong cleric who's good at rebuking can take out the entire party almost single-handedly. I'd recommend doing this once and just completely overpowering him, commanding him if possible. I'd also do it early.
I'm not recommending this in order to make him unhappy. I think that this is a key weakness (possibly the key weakness) of undead in the rules system, and I truly believe you'd be doing your player a disservice if you didn't give him a chance to experience it. Given that he's adventuring with a party of people who aren't subject to being rebuked this shouldn't be too harsh.
(a lot of interesting points)
Totally agreeing on this.
Have them meeting other undead too. If their cleric is channeling positive energy, he'd end up in another world of pain.
Good point there tbug.
A cleric or paladin, or even a wizard necromancer, can be a huge pain for an undead PC.
I find it hard to say an out-right no to my players. They can acheive anything as long as the RP flows into it.
Everyone above have given everything else I would have said.
Undead is a hard thing to pull off... even with gentle repose, after one battle his skin is going to be shredded.
Depending on the setting, alignments, and so on, I'd probably allow it, but then face the character with these obstacles, and NOT GO EASY with them either
Hey, great feedback. I can tell you put some thought into it and I appreciate it.
And thanks to everybody else who has chimed in, great input.
The skeletal champion template seems pretty darn powerful, but the +1 LA might balance that out.
And I definitely don't plan on going easy on him. He's been making life rather difficult, so vengeance will be sweet!
The skeletal champion template seems pretty darn powerful, but the +1 LA might balance that out.
And I definitely don't plan on going easy on him. He's been making life rather difficult, so vengeance will be sweet!
Well lets compare the pro's and con's of being an undead in general. And then the benefits of being a skeletal champion and see if we can't determine a reasonable balance for what type of LA, if any, should be applied.
PROs for being undead:
- Gain darkvision 60'
- Immunity to Mind-affecting effects
- Immunity to Death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning
- Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, exhaustion, fatigue, or damage to physical ability scores (Str and Dex)
- Immunity to any effect that requires a Fort save unless said effect also works on objects or is harmless
- Not at risk of death from massive damage
CONs for being undead
- Immunity to Mind-affecting effects (prevents benefits from morale effects such as bless or heroism)
- does not benefit from natural healing, and is harmed by positive energy/healed by negative energy (in most campaigns the party healer has ample access to positive energy but little to negative energy, meaning less healing overall)
- instantly destroyed if brought to 0 hit points (no being down and stabilizing...just gone if brought to 0, essentially same as losing 10-15 hps of cushion)
- can't be raised by raise dead or reincarnate (means having to spend a good deal more cash to come back if dead)
- subject to all effects that target undead specifically (channel energy, turn/command undead, smite evil, undead affecting spells)
So judging from that list, the undead gets some substantial benefits, but also has some not insignificant weaknesses. The main benefit from 3.5 was immunity to crits/sneak attacks, but thats gone now. The immunity to most status type effects is very nice, as is free darkvision. But at higher levels, the immunities will likely be less of a factor (as the status effects wouldn't be as dangerous to a higher level character), while the weaknesses become more significant (lack of healing, better chances of being subjected to powerful anti-undead effects, greater likelihood of being accidentally zapped by the party when fighting other undead). And if an undead is destroyed, it doesn't come back; if it is rezzed or true rezzed it comes back as the original creature, not the undead version.
And lets tack on the social problems inherent with being undead. Most good aligned divine characters would consider any type of undead to be abhorrent and worthy of destruction, and interactions and diplomacy with most mundane people will be difficult at best.
All in all, thats probably worth a +1 level adjustment early on, but at higher levels I think the benefits start to disappear a bit (as most of the immunities can be gained other ways, and the effects prevented against aren't as devestating as they would be on lower level characters), so that it might drop to a +0 LA. So maybe its worth a +.5 LA overall?
Now the Skeletal champion gains some additional benefits...
- +2 Str and Dex
- small natural armor bonus (+1 for small, +2 for medium characters)
- DR 5/bludgeoning
- immune to cold damage
- +4 channel resistance
- free natural claw attack
- Improved Initiative for free
That together is probably worth about a +1 LA.
But the skeletal champion also gets 2 additional racial HD. These are undead HD of d8, with medium BAB, good Will/bad Fort and Reflex saves, and 4+Int skill points per HD with a decent skill set. All in all, these aren't great HD; they don't compare to HD gained from classes by any means.
Now I think I recall you said this guy was a fighter around level 10? So lets assume that as the baseline. Is a human fighter 12 better or worse off than a skeletal champion fighter 10/undead 2? Hmm I think thats a close call, probably the skeletal champion version is a little better. What if we gave the non-undead fighter another level? Now hes looking at some significant benefits over the skeletal champion....+2 BAB, more hps, more feats and more skills, and farther advancement along fighter class features (armor training, weapon training, fighter related feats).
So all in all I'd probably go one of two ways here. Give the skeletal champion template straight up with a +1 LA, or wipe out his last gained class level (as part of the death process to become an undead) and then give him the skeletal champion template with no LA. So that a fighter 10 becomes either a fighter 10/undead 2 with LA +1, or becomes a fighter 9/undead 2 with no LA.
I'd probably go with the latter version just for ease on my own part in keeping things simpler and not having to worry about LA.
Well lets compare the pro's and con's of being an undead in general. And then the benefits of being a skeletal champion and see if we can't determine a reasonable balance for what type of LA, if any, should be applied.
Hey, you did a great job of breaking this down and analyzing the pros and cons. Very clear and concise. I'm realizing that being undead isn't quite as powerful as I once thought it was. The drawbacks could be pretty lethal for a fighter.
The suggestion for the Skeletal Champion is looking pretty good right now, with a +1 LA. If I give him Skeletal Champion, I'd probably make him forgo his next level up to compensate.
CONs for being undead
- instantly destroyed if brought to 0 hit points (no being down and stabilizing...just gone if brought to 0, essentially same as losing 10-15 hps of cushion)
- can't be raised by raise dead or reincarnate (means having to spend a good deal more cash to come back if dead)
The fact that undead are destroyed at 0 hit points is a critical observation. No "dying". No chance to stabilize. He hits 0 hit points and he's GONE! And since in Pathfinder corporeal undead can be hit by crits and sneak attacks, the odds of hitting 0 or less during a campaign are more significant than in 3.5. I'd make sure you point this out to your player. Or, if you're feeling cruel, don't point it out until after he's undead and falls below 0 hp :)
If he is truly just looking for "flavor" see if he would be interested in the Restless Soul template. It gives you that "Crow" type of feel, without unbalancing the character.
Just a thought.
Here's a PrC I did a while back that he might like:
Dark Souled Knight
Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Endurance
Skills: Knowledge(Arcana) 4; Knowledge(The Planes) 4
Special: Must have suffered permenant ability or level loss from a negative energy attack, or death.
Basics:
HD: D12
Skills: Fighter skills and Knowledge(Arcana) and (The Planes)
Skill Points: 2 + Int Modifier
Base Attack Bonus Progression: Good (same as fighter)
Strong Saves: Will, Fort
Weak Saves: Ref
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Dark Souled Knight gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies
Abilities:
Level -- Ability
1 -- Channel Negative Energy 1d6, Pale Vigor, Poor Healing
2 -- Viscious Soul
3 -- Channel Negative Energy 2d6, Immunity to Fear
4 -- Deaden Body
5 -- Channel Negative Energy 3d6, Death Ward, Greater Pale Vigor
6 -- Vampiric Strike
7 -- Channel Negative Energy 4d6, Deaden Mind
8 -- Ability Drain
9 -- Channel Negative Energy 5d6, Hungry Aura
10 -- Pale Mastery
Class Abilities:
Channel Negative Energy (Su) -- The Dark Soul can channel negative energy a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his class level + his Cha Modifier. The DC for his channel energy is equal to 1/2 his level + his Cha Modifier.
Pale Vigor (Su) -- A Dark Soul actually becomes stronger the closer he comes to death... the gate to the negative energy plane in his soul strengths him as it opens wider. A Dark Soul no longer takes bleed damage, even when he has negative HP or when he takes an action while at negative HP. In addition he is no longer staggered when his HP is at or below 0. He still dies when he reaches an amount of negative HP equal to his Con Modifier.
Poor Healing (Ex) -- A Dark Soul gains less from positive energy than most people, the gate to the negative energy plane in his soul deads the effects of normally beneifical positive energy. When healed by postive energy a Dark Soul only heals 1/2 as much as he normally would. In addition whenever subjected to positive energy a Dark Soul must make a will save as if he was taking damage. If he fails this save throw he cannot access his channel negative energy class ability, or any other class ability or feat based on it for 1d6 rounds. Unfortunately this follows the Dark Soul to the grave as well, any attempt to revive a dead Dark Soul short of Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection requires a caster level check (DC 15+Dark Soul levels) or fails.
Visious Soul (Su) -- Any melee weapon a Dark Soul uses is treated as a viscious weapon in addition to any other properties it has even if this would take it above the normal limit of +10 enhancement bonus total. A Dark Soul can suppress this ability each round as a swift action.
Deaden Body (Ex) -- A Dark Soul with this ability may no longer be stunned, Sickened, Fatigued, Exhausted, or Dazed.
Death Ward (Su) -- A Dark Soul with this ability is under the constant effect of the Death Ward spell. The caster level is equal to his class level. Even if this ability is dispelled somehow the Dark Soul may restart it on his round as a free action.
Greater Pale Vigor (Su) -- While at negative HP a Dark Soul gains a +1 Competence bonus on his Attack rolls, Damage rolls, Save Throws, and Skill Checks. In addition he may add his class levels to his Con to determine when he actually dies from negative HP (so a Dark Soul with a Con of 18 and fifth level in this class would die at -23 HP).
Vampiric Strike (Su) -- As a standard action a Dark Soul may expend 2 channel negative energy attempts while attacking an opponent. If he hits the opponent takes an extra amount of damage equal to the Dark Soul's negative energy burst, and the Dark Soul heals an equal amount of damage. This ability may only be used with melee weapons.
Deaden Mind (Ex) -- A Dark Soul with this ability is immune to Charm and Compulsion effects unless the effect affects undead. In the case the effect does affect undead it affects the Dark Soul in the same manner.
Ability Drain (Su) -- As a full round action a Dark Soul may expend 3 channel negative energy attempts and make a melee touch attack. If he succeeds the target takes an amount of ability damage to their Con and Cha Score equal to the number of dice the Dark Soul gets when Channelling negative energy. A Will Save (DC = 10 + 1/2 level + cha modifier) will half this ability damage.
Hungry Aura (Su) -- As a Full Round action the Dark Soul may expend 1 channel negative energy attempt to summon hungry spirits from the negative energy plane to him. These spirits draw energy from those around the Dark Soul and sap their strength. Anyone within 15 feet of the Dark Soul with this ability active must make a Fortitude Save (DC = 10 +1/2 level + cha modifier) or be fatigued. If they are already fatigued they become exhausted instead. The aura lasts for anumber of rounds equal to the Dark Soul's class level, and a new save is made every round at the start of the Dark Soul's turn.
Pale Mastery (Ex)-- When at negative HP the Dark Soul gains a +2 morale bonus to Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, Save Throws and Skill checks. In addition double the Dark Souls Con Modifier before adding his class level to determine when he dies from negative HP (so a Dark Soul with a Con of 18 would die at -46 HP (18*2+10)).
Don't be cruel, be up front about it. Make sure he knows the drawbacks, and the changes to the undead type from 3.5. Also make sure that he knows he'll be at a disadvantage around enemy clerics and necromancers, who may have various ways of controlling or destroying him. He will want to go out of his way to disguise his undead nature and take any other possible precautions if he expects to come across such enemies.
Necropolitan & story ideas for becoming undead
Necropolitan is attractive because of the minimal benefits and as such minimal cost. It's the undead type and +2 turn resistance (in pathfinder channel resistance). That's it. Nothing fancy, no bonus feats or special powers. The type is probably worth +1 LA, the template for necropolitan instead causes the player to lose a level permanently when the template is gained, as well as pay a GP fee of about 3,000 gold, iirc.
The template is applied in a process known to other Necropolitans. Basically, they are a group of undead that live in their own city, and living humanoids can apply for citizenship, which comes with the ritual that makes them a Necropolitan. The application process involves paying the fee, but it's also a great opportunity for an adventure hook. Perhaps the player would require a city leader to speak for him, and he might have to do a quest for someone to earn their favor (such a quest might also provide the gold necessary).
To be honest, even if you go with a different template, this is still a decent adventure hook, as well as an explanation for how the character becomes undead in the first place. Basically it would require a city trending towards lawful evil, with a commoner population of relatively oppressed living humanoids who strive to earn their 'citizenship', ruled over by an upper class of assorted non-spawning, non-hungry undead, situated apart from the civilized world (perhaps on the Plane of Shadow, or the Negative Energy Plane). Perhaps the undeath granted by the citizenship is sustained by the magical forces of the city itself, or some artifact therein, and as such the character might later be called upon to protect the city from its enemies, lest the magical force that keeps him animated be jeopardized.
Mechanics for applying undead type or template to existing characters
Hombrew Transformative Prestige Classes as an alternative method
A five level PrC is probably sufficient to impart most of the benefits of the Skeletal Champion template. Racial hit dice, of course, would be dropped - that's a large part of the point of doing it this way. The ability score boosts can probably also be dropped as excessive and unnecessary for a PC, and the natural claw attacks can probably also be dropped for simplicity's sake. I'd do as follows:
Prereqs: Know Religion 4 ranks; BaB+6; past exposure to necromantic magic or negative energy
Levels:
1...+2 natural armor, healed by neg energy, harmed by positive
2...resist 5 Cold, +2 save vs. anything undead are immune to
3...DR 5/Bludgeoning, Improved Initiative bonus feat
4...resist 10 cold, +4 save vs. undead immunities
5...Undead type, immune to cold, +4 channel resist
d8 HD, full Bab, and Prefered Saves same as those of undead monsters. Know: Religion as a class feat.
Once the character is undead, you might want to recommend some investment in disguise, and possibly bluff as well, to make travel in mortal lands easier - as well as mitigate the aforementioned risk of enemy clerics or necromancers taking control of the character. A hat of disguise conveniently falling in his lap in the next dungeon can help smooth things over.
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Random undead weaknesses that could apply to a sentient PC undead;
1) The immunity to mind-affecting effects is fine for a mindless undead, but the PC is implicitly not mindless. He's got a sentience that can be feared, charmed, dazed, enraged, etc. On the upside, he'll be able to benefit from morale bonuses, such as bardsong or a bless spell.
2) In this world, negative energy isn't an infinite free power source. It's not a 'free lunch' or 'perpetual motion machine.' It's not explicitly *better* at creating life or imbuing animatory force than positive energy. It's a hungry empty *void* of energy. Regardless of what the animate dead spell or skeleton monster write-up has to say about the subject, an undead creature doesn't have an endless infinite supply of mechanical energy, as that's the exact opposite of what negative energy does. The undead needs a power source. Vampires getting it by drinking blood and inflicting negative levels. Ghouls get it by eating flesh. Wraiths, Wights, Shadows, Spectres, etc. gain it through draining life. In a setting where negative energy is, in fact, *negative energy,* and not a free supply of endless power more efficient even than positive energy, any undead, even a skeleton, zombie or lich will need to draw power from some other source. (Subsisting off of raw magic, in the case of liches, perhaps, and requiring some sort of repeated expenditure of arcane might in the case of animated corpses? Alternately, they could subsist on 'ambient necomantic energy' in certain desecrated or unhallowed areas, allowing for one to run into skeletons and zombies hanging out in some crypt, but preventing a free-range skeleton PC from running around willy nilly without arcane magic or some sort of other feeding process to keep the batteries charged...)
If you were to drop several of the undead immunities and benefits in the way Set suggests, you might also drop the inherent level adjustment that the type normally comes with on its own.
Assuming someone who wants to be undead is just a munchkin is unfair.
There are a lot of great RP reasons to be undead. Heck, Kai from the Canadian TV series Lexx is a great undead character, and that's just if you play it for the laughs and the philosophy.
Plus, the immunities an undead gains are worth exactly nothing. As a DM, you choose what the PCs face, and their immunities come up exactly as often as you allow them to come up.
That being said, check out the Necropolitan race from Libris Mortis. It's quite playable at a fixed XP cost and no Level Adjustment.
Then, talk over the adjustments to the character that the player will have to face. He might want to invest in a super cheap Hat of Disguise so he can enter towns without getting the local clerics of the Sun god on his crusty behind.
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Personally, I would encourage all of your players to have their characters become one of the heart-beat challenged. We have wonderful job opportunities, with plenty of room for advancement, and the perks are pretty slick. Not to mention that we need more positive role models to counteract the negative publicity Hollywood is always heaping on us.
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Not to mention that we need more positive role models to counteract the negative publicity Hollywood is always heaping on us.
Zombies, yes. Mummies even. But vampires sometimes wish they could have *more* negative publicity. More 30 Days of Night, less Twilight!
And then there's the terribly insensitive mocking of shows like Shaun of the Dead and A Vampire in Brooklyn. Zombies used to be your loved ones, people, show some respect! And really, what did vampires ever do to deserve Eddie Murphy? Such cruelty shown to Undead-Americans (or, Undead-Britons, in the former case)!
I think the immunity to mind-effecting should be left in as is, because it very much is a double-edged sword. The party bard sings, nothing happens to the corpse. Bless and other morale bonuses are also useless.
Plus, really, while he's "immune" to mind-affecting stuff, he's also up for being commanded by evil clerics and necromancers. And, of course, he needs someone to cast the spell(s) on him - like an evil cleric or necromancer. So, really, the guy does the ritual, the newly-dead character opens his eyes just in time to make a Will save vs. Command Undead. (As an intelligent undead, he gets to make a new save every day, but still... A level-appropriate cleric or necromancer with improved channel and decent charisma will really ruin his day. DC 10 + 1/2 level + Charisma + Improved vs. bad will save)
The corpse won't be healed when the cleric channels, and unless the party cleric can be convinced to learn selective channelling just for him, he'll get blasted whenever he pumps positive energy. (And, of course, he'll be affected by Consecrate and Hallow in fun, fun ways...)
Potions of inflict will be crazy hard to find, so his best bet is to get some UMD (or dip a level) and find wands of inflict to keep himself going. He will not, under any circumstances, heal naturally - so he'll be burning charges even when he's only down 4 or 5 because he doesn't gain for resting.
I do think that just one level hit is small against all the power that undead get -- immunity to energy drain, poison, disease and ability damage is *massive*... Plus there's the DR, the bonus feat and the 2 racial HDs... So I'd probably just keep him at his current level and turn his last two fighter levels into undead levels (taking out the feats) and be done with it. But that's me.
The corpse won't be healed when the cleric channels, and unless the party cleric can be convinced to learn selective channelling just for him, he'll get blasted whenever he pumps positive energy.
... He will not, under any circumstances, heal naturally - so he'll be burning charges even when he's only down 4 or 5 because he doesn't gain for resting.
You are wrong on these two points:
1. When healing the cleric doesn't harm undead.
2. Undead with an Intelligence score heal on their own -- those without an intelligence score don't.
Other than that nice points on the mind affecting stuff.
A really good solution, or so it seems to me, would be not to simply grant him his undeath, for example by letting him go to the local necromancer and pay for his create undead. Or at least make him aware before he does that, that such an unscrupulous spellcaster might not bother to revive him at all once he's got his corpse and money.
I would offer to him to let him lead the party (should he convince them) against some kind of undead with a create spawn ability, which makes for a surer way to get back. He would find one or two villages in the country with an undead problem, maybe shadows or wights (or if you want some fun, an unusual type of undead from the Libris Mortis). He'd have to plan the fight to die at the hands of one just before the fight is over, and revive as a free spawn. Without class levels, as he may or may not have known, and without much memories from his living past. But with a certain craving. Good time to have an alignment change.
Then I'd direct him towards the Emancipated Spawn PrC form Savage Species, that allows to regain one's feats and class levels and memories, in addition to a +6 turn resistance, in three levels.
That should make his weaknesses less dangerous, especially since you can choose to let him sacrifice himself to incorporeal undead, and his strengths equally less dangerous, since three levels for a +6 turn resistance, +2BAB and +3will is not the most optimal choice for a mid level PC.
In addition, the scheming necessary to the operation, the quest to the right undead menace, the good ol'amnesia, the party conflict and the training to regain three levels as a 3HD shadow, may serve as a nice adventure.
I think the immunity to mind-effecting should be left in as is, because it very much is a double-edged sword. The party bard sings, nothing happens to the corpse.
If there is a bard in the party, it's time to take that feat that allows bardic music to affect undead, and maybe levels in Dirgesinger.
2. Undead with an Intelligence score heal on their own -- those without an intelligence score don't.
You are wrong on these two points:1. When healing the cleric doesn't harm undead.
I actually meant against undead that are trying to kill said cleric. Could have been clearer.
I am wrong on that second point, though. I figured all undead without fast healing couldn't heal. Huh. My bad.
Other than that nice points on the mind affecting stuff.
Thanks!