Discoveries:
Extend/Eternal Potion: Should this also apply to Extracts and Mutagens? It seems plausible to me.
Explosive Bomb: The radius increase seems relevant and useful to all the bombs, but it seems like the 'catching on Fire' bit should be restricted to the standard bomb (or 'fire bomb', which isn't specifically named)... Or else generalize the text to be appropriate to any of the variant energy-type bombs.
Persistent Mutagen:
Going from 10 min/level (130 min @ 13th) to 1hr/level (14 hr @14th) seems pretty bizarre.
Why not an intermediary tier or two (30 min/ level?)
Having Extend Potion also apply to Mutagens/Extracts could play with these details...
Also it isn't clear exactly what the limit on # of attacks/round is with Fast Bombs.
Can you 2WF with it?
(Actually, that would be good to clarify - I have seen other assuming using Bombs only requires one hand, but if it was clarified that it required 2 free hands the 2WF thing would also be taken care of)
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Also it isn't clear exactly what the limit on # of attacks/round is with Fast Bombs.
Can you 2WF with it?(Actually, that would be good to clarify - I have seen other assuming using Bombs only requires one hand, but if it was clarified that it required 2 free hands the 2WF thing would also be taken care of)
Just by the nature of the fast bombs level requirement i think it's safe to assume that you can't TWF with them (requires you to wait until your BAB is high enough to support two attacks). That would be my personal ruling as DM...
So yes, clarification is needed, but unless you're trying to powergame, it seems self explanitory to me.
There's no need for a clarification;
The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks.
Extra attacks are based on base attack bonus. Not attacks per round. So if you had TWF and Haste you couldn't throw five bombs in one round at level 10.
That's how Persistent Mutagen was in the previous version as well. I didn't really like the fact that it shows up so late in the class. I think having it at level 10 would be a nice place for it stepped up, but then again I have no idea why it's at level 16.
but unless you're trying to powergame, it seems self explanitory to me.
I'm just trying to help with feedback on the rules wording.
The current wording doesn't actually establish a link between the number of additional attacks you can do (it's just 'you can [use] additional bombs... when you get additional attacks'). I would not at all assume that Haste does not apply here. Knowing whether or not 2 free hands are needed affects plenty of other stuff anyways.
The current wording doesn't actually establish a link between the number of additional attacks you can do (it's just 'you can [use] additional bombs... when you get additional attacks'). I would not at all assume that Haste does not apply here. Knowing whether or not 2 free hands are needed affects plenty of other stuff anyways.
Yes it does, I bolded it in my last quote. It very clearly states they are based off your BAB.
I'm just saying it can also be read as: IF BAB>=6 -> make as many attacks as you can.
It doesn't establish any way they are BASED off BAB, it says once you reach a threshhold, you can use (undefined) multiple bombs.
A better to way to state it in line with how you are reading it would be "As a full-round action, the alchemist can prepare and throw a number of bombs equal to the number of attacks granted by his base attack bonus." which would not allow for Haste (though this could be added) nor for 2WF.
I suppose a very abstract reading could come across as that, but I think it's pretty clearly the intention for it to be 1 bomb per attack given by your BAB.
I'm just putting this out there because as you can see, a 100% clear wording is possible in roughly the same size, and I'd rather not have to wait until the 3rd printing of the APG to get the bug-free version like the Core Rules. Why not aim high?
I imagine this will be on a sticky note on Jason's monitor before the end of the day along with 300 other things cropping up with the new pdf. It would be an easy rewording.
He probably has enough sticky posts to make a pretty cool photo for the blog :-)
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I'm just putting this out there because as you can see, a 100% clear wording is possible in roughly the same size, and I'd rather not have to wait until the 3rd printing of the APG to get the bug-free version like the Core Rules. Why not aim high?
Aiming high leads to failure and disappointment. Aiming for mediocrity on the other hand lends itself to a goal which is much easier to attain and, in the end, more satisfying.
Again, it would be good to clarify how many free hands it takes to prepare + throw bombs.
From a real-world perspective, I would assume two free hands are needed, but other posters seem to assume you can 2WF with it.
Simple to clarify.
I've always assumed they grab the vial, "charge" it with their magical aura, then huck it using one hand the whole time. There's no mention of mixing or anything like that except when you make the initial vials.
I suppose a very abstract reading could come across as that, but I think it's pretty clearly the intention for it to be 1 bomb per attack given by your BAB.
Agreed.
I don't think things like rapid shot are meant to apply to an alchemist.
That said, my alchemist will still probably take it, because the poisoning effects make me instantly consider someone who throws more then just bombs ;)
Also it isn't clear exactly what the limit on # of attacks/round is with Fast Bombs.
Can you 2WF with it?(Actually, that would be good to clarify - I have seen other assuming using Bombs only requires one hand, but if it was clarified that it required 2 free hands the 2WF thing would also be taken care of)
What about rapid shot or multishot?
The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with ranged weapon.
This states IF his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him extra attacks, not if he has more than one attack through feats or other abilities.
But i would still assume right now it takes 1 hand, so you can hold a bow or other weapon in the other hand while charging and lobbing bombs.
Another thought, bombs do more damage than arrows. That would be one reason not to allow rapid shot or multi-shot to allow more bombs being thrown.
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I have a question. Can Sticky Bombs also be Concussive Bombs? If yes, I will explain the reason I need to know.I don't see why not...it doesn't say otherwise just says it happens again next round if i remember correctly.
Then to explain why I needed to know...
I am playing a child Alchemist on Sunday, who prefers to make extracts/poisons/mutegens/bombs out of candy, because otherwise they taste bad.
Sticky Bomb + Concussive Bomb = Boom Boom Bubblegum!
I have not seen this asked, so I must be missing something fairly obvious -- the list of formula for Alchemist's extracts is where? I got the bomb thing down, I understand mutagens, but extracts . . .
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I have not seen this asked, so I must be missing something fairly obvious -- the list of formula for Alchemist's extracts is where? I got the bomb thing down, I understand mutagens, but extracts . . .
Look at the beginning of the Spell section(last section of the pdf), it's the first list in the section.
I have not seen this asked, so I must be missing something fairly obvious -- the list of formula for Alchemist's extracts is where? I got the bomb thing down, I understand mutagens, but extracts . . .
Found it. At the back :sigh:
One handed or two handed doesn't seem to matter much.
it does if you don't have quickdraw and decide not to throw bombs in the second round and unleash multiple arrows instead since you don't have to draw the bow.
Ah, i read it as you make the catalyst which is the bomb, at any time before hand since the catalyst remains usable for years. Then infuse it with magic to actually make it active therefor you would only require one hand.
Guess your right, there does need to be a ruling.
yeah, I have always pictured it as a glass vial with stopper that you infuse through the glass. I'm trying to come off less aggressive on the forums, thats why i didn't respond it says nothing about mixing just creating.
Well the text says bombs are created from catalyst vials, but seeing as how these contraptions are magical in nature nothing to say part of the attack action isn't transmuting those vials into different flavorful bombs. ie. ball and fuse
It also counts as a weapon, so it counts for weapon feats. I would rule that TWF or Rapid shot would work, but their effects wouldn't stack. Treat the bombs just like you would throwing daggers. Many shot would also work, just throw 2 in one hand.
But any weapon is categorized as a 2-Handed/1-Handed/Light weapon, because it's important for if you can hold a Shield, if you can 2WF, etc. So since Bombs count as weapons for most all purposes, they obviously need to be classified as 2-Handed/1-Handed/Light for determining exactly those same things.
The wording on using multiple Bombs as a Full-Attack Action obviously can be cleared up, because it isn't clear if it's as many as you can throw, or limited somehow. I think it's pretty likely that we will NOT see Light-weapon/ 2WF-enabled, Rapid Shotting, Hasted Bombs with as many bombs as you can manage per round, but I can't say exactly which part of that will be restricted (I'm not even considering multi-limb Alchemists). Certainly I don't think EVERY part needs to restricted to the maximal (2-Handed, can only use base Iterative # of Bombs/round irrespective of Rapid Shot, Haste, etc), but some areas seem likely to be restricted to establish a 'middle ground'.
It would be useful if the intent here was shared, for play-testing purposes.
It also counts as a weapon, so it counts for weapon feats. I would rule that TWF or Rapid shot would work, but their effects wouldn't stack. Treat the bombs just like you would throwing daggers. Many shot would also work, just throw 2 in one hand.But any weapon is categorized as a 2-Handed/1-Handed/Light weapon, because it's important for if you can hold a Shield, if you can 2WF, etc. So since Bombs count as weapons for most all purposes, they obviously need to be classified as 2-Handed/1-Handed/Light for determining exactly those same things.
The wording on using multiple Bombs as a Full-Attack Action obviously can be cleared up, because it isn't clear if it's as many as you can throw, or limited somehow. I think it's pretty likely that we will NOT see Light-weapon/ 2WF-enabled, Rapid Shotting, Hasted Bombs with as many bombs as you can manage per round, but I can't say exactly which part of that will be restricted (I'm not even considering multi-limb Alchemists). Certainly I don't think EVERY part needs to restricted to the maximal (2-Handed, can only use base Iterative # of Bombs/round irrespective of Rapid Shot, Haste, etc), but some areas seem likely to be restricted to establish a 'middle ground'.
It would be useful if the intent here was shared, for play-testing purposes.
That's a good point. Bombs are weird because they act like part ranged and part melee weapons. I think they really should be treated like a throwing dagger without precise damage. Rapid Shot applies, but you need the fast bomb discovery to do it (just ass you would need quick draw with daggers). Vital Strike would even apply, but it only applies to the base 1d6 damage and not the bonus you get from your level. The only thing that doesn't apply is sneak attack and precise shot due to the text about bombs can't do precision damage.
In that sense, I would rule that they are 1h light ranged weapons. And yes, they can be any shape/color you want them to be (ball and fuse, capsule, candies, gems, flasks, pumpkins, tiny clockwork clowns, smurfs, paper airplanes, human toes... whatever).
Discoveries:
Extend/Eternal Potion: Should this also apply to Extracts and Mutagens? It seems plausible to me.Explosive Bomb: The radius increase seems relevant and useful to all the bombs, but it seems like the 'catching on Fire' bit should be restricted to the standard bomb (or 'fire bomb', which isn't specifically named)... Or else generalize the text to be appropriate to any of the variant energy-type bombs.
These are 2 questions I've been wondering since the first playtest. Any answers?
Me and my dm have been allowing the extend/eternal to work on extracts... not mutagens though
The increased splash range I was curious about but I just figured it was part of that bomb and not the others unless specified otherwise.
Extend/Eternal was clarified in the first playtest to only apply to actual potions, not to extracts or mutagens. I'm not sure on the Explosive Bomb things though.
Extend/Eternal was clarified in the first playtest to only apply to actual potions, not to extracts or mutagens. I'm not sure on the Explosive Bomb things though.Where exactly was this clarified? I realize in the description that it specifically states potion, but extracts are potions are they not? In my opinion this extend potion is like a metamagic. I don't know why it wouldn't work on the Alchemists "spells".
Perhaps because having permanent 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells seems a bit stronger then one discovery should allow?
It might be "like" metamagic, except it doesn't adjust the spell level or have any cost to it aside from per/day.
If I remember right JJ was pretty clear on if it's a potion, it will be called a potion. I don't know where that post was at though...