Oracle mystery spells don't come in till 3rd level


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

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final playtest (updated version) pg. 23 wrote:

produce flame (3rd), resist energy (5th),

fireball (7th), wall of fire (9th), summon monster V (fire
elementals only, 11th), fire seeds (13th), fire storm (15th),
incendiary cloud (17th), elemental swarm (fire only, 19th).

I just realized that oracles don't start getting spells relevant to their mystery until 3rd level, am I alone in thinking that makes for very weird situations like the elemental focuses who can't even cast a spell of their element until 3rd level (or ever with some mysteries)? I just went back and checked and have been reading these wrong the whole time. (I thought the first listed spell came in at level one, then the next spell was at level 3, so produce flame was 1st level and resist energy was 3rd level).

I mean with one revelation and no spells related to your theme you really don't seem like much of a speaker for your relevant element. Shouldn't you get a spell relevant to your theme at level one?

In our 5th level and 10th level playtest we were playing it that way and it didn't cause problems within the game. I'm not even suggesting pull back every spell, but just add a spell for every revelation at level 1.

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I had a thread about this on the original oracle.

I felt that because Divine spells generally aren't quite as powerful as Sorcerer/Wizard that moving some of the spells known back a level or two wouldn't hurt too much.

I feel that with the cure spell changes it alleviated the problem a little, but I still feel like it wouldn't hurt to bring the Mystery bonus spells to 2/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19 or even 1/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18.

Either that... or give the Oracle another spell known at the beginning tier of each spell level (2 instead of one).


Alizor wrote:

I had a thread about this on the original oracle.

I felt that because Divine spells generally aren't quite as powerful as Sorcerer/Wizard that moving some of the spells known back a level or two wouldn't hurt too much.

I feel that with the cure spell changes it alleviated the problem a little, but I still feel like it wouldn't hurt to bring the Mystery bonus spells to 2/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19 or even 1/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18.

Either that... or give the Oracle another spell known at the beginning tier of each spell level (2 instead of one).

+1

I don't care which, but either move everything back so that oracles start at level 1 (giving them access to a single spell within their mystery at a level earlier than they could normally access it) or giving out another 1st level spell at first level. But this bothered me since I first read the Oracle.

Or they could just give them an appropriate domain, along with the granted power, and everything would be fixed (and the energy mysteries wouldn't have to buy immunity to their element as a revelation). This is my preferred solution.

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Well how about we think up a good 1st level spell for each mystery as a help out

For example 1st level for the flame oracle would be a great place to have burning hands.

it would actually give him something that works with the burning magic revelation at first level (as opposed to 7th)


lastknightleft wrote:
final playtest (updated version) pg. 23 wrote:

produce flame (3rd), resist energy (5th),

fireball (7th), wall of fire (9th), summon monster V (fire
elementals only, 11th), fire seeds (13th), fire storm (15th),
incendiary cloud (17th), elemental swarm (fire only, 19th).

I just realized that oracles don't start getting spells relevant to their mystery until 3rd level, am I alone in thinking that makes for very weird situations like the elemental focuses who can't even cast a spell of their element until 3rd level (or ever with some mysteries)? I just went back and checked and have been reading these wrong the whole time. (I thought the first listed spell came in at level one, then the next spell was at level 3, so produce flame was 1st level and resist energy was 3rd level).

I mean with one revelation and no spells related to your theme you really don't seem like much of a speaker for your relevant element. Shouldn't you get a spell relevant to your theme at level one?

In our 5th level and 10th level playtest we were playing it that way and it didn't cause problems within the game. I'm not even suggesting pull back every spell, but just add a spell for every revelation at level 1.

It's that way because that is how the sorcerer works... which is what the spellcasting part of the class is based on. I have house ruled bringing all of those down two levels, on both the sorcerer and the oracle, it make prestige classing a harder choice but easier to do.

Dark Archive

If I remember correctly they are adding new spells into the APG. This will probably cover the lack of lower level elemental spells( and elemental spells in general ) in the cleric spell list.


The Oracle is working off of the Sorcerer 'template'

Still, comparing directly to the Sorcerer and the Oracle is a bit ahead.

Character Level 1 Oracle gets in spells

Level 0 Spells - 4 Known spells
Level 1 Spells - Cure Light Wounds, 2 other Known spells

That is +1 Spell at level 1 for Oracle compared to Sorcerer.

Full access to all spells marked 'Cure' gives 8 extra spells (10 if your GM includes Heal in the Cure spells) over the 20 levels. {or 'Inflict' spells if you want to hurt people}

Oracles get Revelations at levels 1, 3, 7, 11, 15, 19, 20 (capstone)
Sorcerers get Bloodline powers at levels 1, 3, 9, 15, 20 (capstone)

Oracles get +1 Revelation with additional benefits of picking from a list and the choosing of order of when to take a benefit.

Oracles get skill selection of 4 + Int compared to a Sorcerers 2 + Int. That is 2 extra skill points per level.

Sorcerers do get Eschew materials and 3 bonus feats.
Oracles get their Curse which provides a trade off on benefits and minuses on levels 1, 5, 10, and 15. (You can get some good benefits out of this including more spells if you want or several feat like abilities).

Oracles also have a better hit die, BAB progression, and access to medium armour with shields.

Comparing the two in 'hard' numbers, the Oracle is better at every level then the Sorcerer. The real modifier between the two is the spell selection and punch value of the Arcane spell list compared to the Divine spell list.

Given the latest version of the Oracle, I don't see any need for a concern in when the bonus spells are awarded. The Oracle has the chops to be a solid class.


Wow. I didn't even notice the cure thing.

That needs its own entry!

Draeke Raefel wrote:
If I remember correctly they are adding new spells into the APG. This will probably cover the lack of lower level elemental spells( and elemental spells in general ) in the cleric spell list.

I don't think so.

Clerics are not supposed to have blast spells, in the same way Sorcerers don't have healing spells.


Yeah it was a sweet change they snuck in on the first full paragraph of column one on page 19 in the spell known and casting section.


KaeYoss wrote:

I don't think so.

Clerics are not supposed to have blast spells, in the same way Sorcerers don't have healing spells.

Doesn't matter whether you think so or not; Paizo has directly stated that there will be new elemental spells for Oracles to take advantage of.


Zurai wrote:
Doesn't matter whether you think so or not; Paizo has directly stated that there will be new elemental spells for Oracles to take advantage of.

I have not seen this. They said there will be new symbol spells, but have seen nothing on new elemental spells for Oracles. Could you please add a link?


KaeYoss wrote:
Clerics are not supposed to have blast spells, in the same way Sorcerers don't have healing spells.

Agree.


Zark wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Doesn't matter whether you think so or not; Paizo has directly stated that there will be new elemental spells for Oracles to take advantage of.
I have not seen this. They said there will be new symbol spells, but have seen nothing on new elemental spells for Oracles. Could you please add a link?

/shrug

It's been said multiple times in multiple threads in multiple forums. Sorry, with this board not having a search feature there's no chance I'm going to go digging through every single Oracle thread in these forums looking for it. You'll just have to assume that I'm not lying to you (or not, your choice).

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Zurai wrote:
Zark wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Doesn't matter whether you think so or not; Paizo has directly stated that there will be new elemental spells for Oracles to take advantage of.
I have not seen this. They said there will be new symbol spells, but have seen nothing on new elemental spells for Oracles. Could you please add a link?

/shrug

It's been said multiple times in multiple threads in multiple forums. Sorry, with this board not having a search feature there's no chance I'm going to go digging through every single Oracle thread in these forums looking for it. You'll just have to assume that I'm not lying to you (or not, your choice).

this board has a search feature


lastknightleft wrote:
this board has a search feature

That's a joke, right? Have you ever tried to use it to find a post when you don't know what thread the post was in or remember any specific phrase from that post? It's impossible. It's better to use Google's site: search feature, but even that's not terribly useful.

Still, I suppose I should have said "Without this board having a usable search feature".

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Zurai wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
this board has a search feature

That's a joke, right? Have you ever tried to use it to find a post when you don't know what thread the post was in or remember any specific phrase from that post? It's impossible. It's better to use Google's site: search feature, but even that's not terribly useful.

Still, I suppose I should have said "Without this board having a usable search feature".

no, it's not a joke, and yes I have, but any search feature is going to be useless if you remember neither the thread title nor any specific phrase from that post. I've never seen a search feature that will help you find something if the best you've got is "something about new spells" actually I'll take that back the search feature will show you every thread which says new spells and you'll be overloaded with links that aren't what you're looking for. What exactly do you expect from a search feature? and for the record no-one official has claimed there will be new elemental spells, they've stated several times that there will be new spells, and that "they'll deal with a lot of peoples concerns", and specified new symbol spells, but not elemental spells, that's just a logical assumption people have taken as a fact.


lastknightleft wrote:
and for the record no-one official has claimed there will be new elemental spells, they've stated several times that there will be new spells, and that "they'll deal with a lot of peoples concerns", and specified new symbol spells, but not elemental spells, that's just a logical assumption people have taken as a fact.

False. The response I'm thinking of was in a thread similar to this one asking about elemental spells.

THIS isn't the response I'm thinking of, but it should do for the people who think it's unfathomable that Paizo would add new elemental spells.

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Zurai wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
and for the record no-one official has claimed there will be new elemental spells, they've stated several times that there will be new spells, and that "they'll deal with a lot of peoples concerns", and specified new symbol spells, but not elemental spells, that's just a logical assumption people have taken as a fact.

False. The response I'm thinking of was in a thread similar to this one asking about elemental spells.

THIS isn't the response I'm thinking of, but it should do for the people who think it's unfathomable that Paizo would add new elemental spells.

I do find it funny that you link to a thread that basically says exactly what I'm saying to prove me wrong lol


Like I said, that wasn't the specific post I was thinking of when I made my first reply in this thread. It was, however, a post saying that they would make new elemental spells (as that's the only way "There aren't enough spells for an Oracle to use Freezing Spells on" can be solved by adding new spells). So, as I said, you were wrong when you claimed that "no one official has claimed there will be new elemental spells".

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Zurai wrote:
Like I said, that wasn't the specific post I was thinking of when I made my first reply in this thread. It was, however, a post saying that they would make new elemental spells (as that's the only way "There aren't enough spells for an Oracle to use Freezing Spells on" can be solved by adding new spells). So, as I said, you were wrong when you claimed that "no one official has claimed there will be new elemental spells".

No he generalized it to waves oracle ability, and never said freezing spells. Implication and inference aren't the same thing. Now I'm as sure as you are that there WILL be new elemental spells in the APG, but there is plausible deniability in their statements, in the same way that after 4ed was announced people were able to debuff the cries of "WotC lied to us".


lastknightleft wrote:
no, it's not a joke, and yes I have, but any search feature is going to be useless if you remember neither the thread title nor any specific phrase from that post. I've never seen a search feature that will help you find something if the best you've got is "something about new spells" actually I'll take that back the search feature will show you every thread which says new spells and you'll be overloaded with links that aren't what you're looking for. What exactly do you expect from a search feature?

Well, for one thing, I expect to be able to search by poster and subject. Paizo's search doesn't even allow searching by poster, let alone both. The best you can do is the "recent posts" on their profile, but that's not very helpful in the case of someone who makes many posts every day. For example, I'm pretty sure James Jacobs wrote the post I'm thinking of, but his "recent posts" only go back to Monday evening.

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Zurai wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
no, it's not a joke, and yes I have, but any search feature is going to be useless if you remember neither the thread title nor any specific phrase from that post. I've never seen a search feature that will help you find something if the best you've got is "something about new spells" actually I'll take that back the search feature will show you every thread which says new spells and you'll be overloaded with links that aren't what you're looking for. What exactly do you expect from a search feature?
Well, for one thing, I expect to be able to search by poster and subject. Paizo's search doesn't even allow searching by poster, let alone both. The best you can do is the "recent posts" on their profile, but that's not very helpful in the case of someone who makes many posts every day. For example, I'm pretty sure James Jacobs wrote the post I'm thinking of, but his "recent posts" only go back to Monday evening.

I've never been on a messageboard with that good a search feature. I can't even imagine the amount of work it would take to make one.

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KaeYoss wrote:
Clerics are not supposed to have blast spells, in the same way Sorcerers don't have healing spells.

Are you sure about that? How sure are you? And I didn't even make it to Flame Strike!

Clerics have plenty of blast spells in core, and it's hardly gamebreaking to add some for clerics who want some in-combat actions that aren't save-or-die or busting heads.

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I removed a couple of posts that were unnecessarily antagonistic.


lastknightleft wrote:
I've never been on a messageboard with that good a search feature.

You've never been on a phpBB forum? It's one of the most common free forum software suites out there, and it very definitely has exactly that kind of searching.


Zurai wrote:
[...]You'll just have to assume that I'm not lying to you (or not, your choice).

I didn't imply you were lying. People do read answers from Paizo in different ways and it could be you and I have read replies from Paizo differently. BTW, thanks for the Link

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WotC boards, this board, and the MTV boards for America's best dance crew. And all of them had about the same functionality with their search forums.


A Man In Black wrote:


Clerics have plenty of blast spells in core

They get them later than everyone else, their choices are far more limited, and of course are often inferior as blast spells. Or fire spells. Or both.

Try to play an elemental blaster cleric against devils. Your spell selection isn't that big.

And what's on your little list there?

Magic stone? That's not a blast spell. It's a buff spell for rocks.
Shatter! Devastating! Against the Glass-People from the Glass Sea of Glasseria. A bit limited in application, because I just made all of those up.
Sound Burst might be a nice spell for the save-or-stun, but the blast effect is laughable.
Searing Light is only ever really good against undead, against everything else it's so far behind scorching ray or fireball
Poison isn't even a blast spell.
Holy Smite (and its sister spells) starts as a half-decent one, but still, you get it later than everything else, and its main advantage has nothing to do with blasting. It's a hex that hurts a bit. Unless the guy happens to be of the wrong alignment....

If you want to be an blaster cleric (especially an elemental blaster), you'll have to wait longer for the good stuff than the wizard, and will get less of it.

A Man In Black wrote:


and it's hardly gamebreaking to add some for clerics who want some in-combat actions that aren't save-or-die or busting heads.

Actually, it kinda is. Classes are there for a reason. It's not a strict class system, but if the lines get too blurry, the classes become meaningless. And Pathfinder is a class-based system. That won't change.

So clerics will remain what they are today. They might get one or two new elemental spells according to stuff people have misread, but don't hold your breath for a wizard of the gods in large big armour and a holy symbol.


KaeYoss wrote:
stuff

+1


I'm not as worried about the exact levels at which they get bonus spells, but I have to admit that the bonus spells (and revelations) chosen for the so-called "elemental" mysteries really don't have much to do with the chosen element, unless you think that waves = blizzards. I can't stand the fact that a water specialist, whether Oracle, sorcerer, or cleric, is actually no such thing; rather, he/she is forced to be a COLD specialist instead. I also hate the whole "earth = acid" paradigm with a deep passion.

Oh, well.

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Kirth Gersen wrote:

I can't stand the fact that a water specialist, whether Oracle, sorcerer, or cleric, is actually no such thing; rather, he/she is forced to be a COLD specialist instead. I also hate the whole "earth = acid" paradigm with a deep passion.

Oh, well.

+%

Shadow Lodge

lastknightleft wrote:
+%

Now you're doing it on purpose to make the one I found not look like a mistake...

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Dragonborn3 wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
+%
Now you're doing it on purpose to make the one I found not look like a mistake...

Um if you count doing it intentionally every time, then yeah, I'm just making mistakes left and right, You'll note that the other you quoted was +Q which meant that if it was a mistake, I not only missed the one, but I was also holding onto the shift for way to long. Give me some credit man!

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KaeYoss, I linked both Magic Stone and Holy Smite. How can manage to be so wrong about what they do?

Clerics get as many blast spells as wizards at each level, and approximately the same number, even. They tend to incorporate secondary or conditional effects instead of being fully focused on damage, and they tend to not be very good.

Both wizards and clerics can suck at doing damage at range if they want to. Giving clerics more of those spells to suck in more ways isn't going to break the game. Hell, giving clerics every single blast from the wizard list wouldn't make the class appreciably stronger; blasting would simply be a way for clerics to throw spell slots and actions in a hole, just like wizards can.


A Man In Black wrote:
KaeYoss, I linked both Magic Stone and Holy Smite. How can manage to be so wrong about what they do?

Can you stop the first-grader reasoning? "I'm right and you are wrong! Because I'm right and you are wrong!"

If you have the misguided belief that I'm wrong, try to prove it.

Magic Stone is not a blast spell. They're buff spells for stones. You don't blast anything.

Holy smite might be partially a blast spell, but as a blast spell, it sucks. Because clerics suck at blasting. The main effect is the extra effect those spells grant, blinding enemies and the like. The spell is one level above a wizard's fireball and does less damage (unless you fight appropriate outsiders).

A Man In Black wrote:


Clerics get as many blast spells as wizards at each level, and approximately the same number, even.

Not really.

Cleric 1 list: Inflict light wounds - if you can count that.
Sor/Wis 1 list: Burning hands, magic missile, shocking grasp

Inflict might be okay at first, but it's touch attack + save. And the damage scales very slowly. The wizard spells have better damage progression and are based on either touch attack or save (or neither)

Cleric 2: Inflict moderate wounds, sound burst. Shatter doesn't count.
Sor/wis 2: Acid Arrow (ignores SR!), flaming sphere, scorching ray (single-target, but pretty tough at some levels, and decent at all the others)

Moderate inflict has the same problems as light (double protection and crappy damage progression), and sound burst totally sucks as a blast spell (it's basically a hex with some damage dealing attached for when you want to eradicate mice)

Clr3: Searing light. That's it, except for another weak inflict
Wiz3: Fireball! Lightning Bolt! Vampiric touch, too.

This is the level where things get large-scale. And the cleric brings a knife to this gunfight. Searing light is single target and has crappy damage unless you fight special enemies. Clerics might be able to get a single fireball as domain spell - but a blaster arcanist is getting close to being able to wipe out companies with his arsenal here.

Clr 4: Holy Smite (and sister spells) and more inflict mediocrity
Wiz 4: Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Fire Shield, Shout, Enervation

As I have said repeatedly: Holy smite might be something of a blast, but still not on par with what the wizard gets a spell level earlier. It is a hex with a bit of damage thrown in.
And this is the wizards' "weak" level - no classical "strike down mine enemy with furious anger and handfuls of dice" spells here, just unusually offensive utility spells. But then again, there's enervation - not really a blast, but it does hurt when hit - and those 5-20 points of damage are the least of your problem.

Clr 5: Flame Strike and (wohoo *yawn*) mass inflict for 1d8+level
Wiz 5: Cone of Cold.

This is the first level (we're already out of the lower levels and have 9th-level characters now) when the cleric starts to get some real blast spells, not just those hand-me-downs the wizard didn't want. Flame strike is nice in that it is only half fire damage (clerics get little else but fire in their full-strength blast spells), but its area is smaller than a fireball's. The wizard will leave a nice, big swath of frosty distruction with his blast spell.

Clr 6: Blade Barrier, Harm (and mass inflict moderate, but I'll just stop listing these - they're a necromancer cleric's mass cures, not really a good blast spell)
Wiz 6: Chain Lightning, Freezing Sphere

Don't get me wrong, harm is great. But it's against a single target. Not really in the spirit of high-level blasting, especially since you cannot kill anyone with it. Blade barrier is on the list because I felt generous - it's more a wall spell than a real blaster. It can be avoided completely with that first reflex save, and after that you have to get the enemies to go through.

Wizards, on the other hand, get a powerful discerning spell, one they can drop in the middle of a melee without hurting their friends. And freezing sphere's area is huge!

Clr 7: Nothing really
Wiz 7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Prismatic Spray

Clerics might get the divine word spells, but they're no blasters. Wizard, on the other hand, get two really good spells: The delayed blast fireball which figures greatly in evil time stop schemes, doubles as regular (albeit more powerful) fireball and nice time bomb. And prismatic spray can be downward deadly.

Clr 8: Firestorm
Wiz 8: Incendiary Cloud, Polar Ray, Sunburst, Greater Shout, Horrid Wilting

I give you that firestorm is really nice, but too little too late. And it has tough competition on that level: the cloud is nice to drop into a crowd, polar ray does not only hit you like a cold hammer but also drains your dexterity, sunburst might be more a cleric spell in tone (but clerics don't get it) but still has a nice, huge area, greater shout is like a cleric blast spell that does a nice amount of damage, and horrid wilting is not only discerning, but also is pure damage (though undead are in the clear) and requires a fort save (nice change)

Clr 9: Energy Drain, Storm of Vengeance, Miracle, Mass Heal (undead only)
Wiz 9: Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain

This is another level where the cleric does well, but again, this does not make up for the 16 levels he didn't have those spells. The one really good spell he has and the wizard hasn't is miracle (wizards get wish but for some nutty reason they have to pay even for the standard stuff), which means they can now cast 7th-level wizard blast spells as their 9th-level slot, but wizards will just use their meteor swarm, destroyer of armies.

Clerics are no blaster casters. They can dabble in it a little, but they're way behind wizards. This is by design and this is good. Want to be a blaster? Play evoker (and get extra damage!) or elemental or draconic sorcerer (and either get elemental versatility or, again, extra damage!)

A Man In Black wrote:


Hell, giving clerics every single blast from the wizard list wouldn't make the class appreciably stronger; blasting would simply be a way for clerics to throw spell slots and actions in a hole, just like wizards can.

Blasts can be very effective. You just have to use them correctly.

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lastknightleft wrote:
stuff at the top

Awesome. I agree that Oracles should get a spell at 1st level that better reflects their choice of mystery.

Also, someone mentioned something about Water=?=Cold=Profit! can I just say THANK YOU! I only once saw a real damaging 'water' spell, I believe it was in the back of Masters of the Wild. Waterball. It was like fireball but the damage was non-lethal. These people clearly played final fantasy, how did they miss all the water spells?

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KaeYoss wrote:

Not really.

Cleric 1 list: Inflict light wounds - if you can count that.
Sor/Wis 1 list: Burning hands, magic missile, shocking grasp

Magic Missile and Magic Stone are about on par at first and second, since MS gets more damage and more attacks but attacks regular AC instead of autohitting. Shocking Grasp and Burning Hands are completely useless and don't bear mentioning.

Quote:

Cleric 2: Inflict moderate wounds, sound burst. Shatter doesn't count.

Sor/wis 2: Acid Arrow (ignores SR!), flaming sphere, scorching ray (single-target, but pretty tough at some levels, and decent at all the others)

Acid Arrow is again completely useless, so we're skipping it. Sound Burst does 4.5 damage and always hits and stuns about half the time, while Scorching Ray does 14 damage and hits approximately half the time. So it's 2.5 damage versus a moderate fort save to stun and an AOE.

Quote:

Clr3: Searing light. That's it, except for another weak inflict

Wiz3: Fireball! Lightning Bolt! Vampiric touch, too.

Clerics are only missing this level to have blasting as a valid life choice.

Level 4? Wizards have gimped trash like Ice Storm and Shout, Clerics have the Holy Wrath line (and only clerics get it, so WTF "after other classes"?) Level 5, Cone of Cold and Flame Strike are on par. After that, blasts completely fall behind the expected HP even for the wizard. Doing 38.5 damage to a 145 HP Hezrou (if it doesn't save!) is not a valid strategy even if it didn't have a pile of resists.

Cleric blasts are half save-or-mildly-suck and half damage. Drop in a properly-scaling single-target blast or an AOE somewhere between Sound Burst and Holy Smite at level 3 and you have a playable blasting cleric/oracle that doesn't diminish the wizard, who still is the best at a weak strategy and has strong strategies to use.


A Man In Black wrote:
Burning Hands are completely useless and don't bear mentioning.

Yeah, who'd want a 1st level area spell? I mean, the ability to affect areas is just the biggest advantage to blast magic.

We get it, you don't like blast magic. You think they are useless because you don't understand or just ignore their strengths.

Why again are we talking about how clerics need more of this stuff?

Oh, and in case you have overlooked it all the time: magic stone is not a blast spell. It's an item buff. You cast it on an item to improve it, and then use the item. It takes an action just to cast the spell, and then you'll have to make a regular attack roll to use it. Not a blast spell. All you do with the magic is buff your pet rock.


Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
stuff at the top
Awesome. I agree that Oracles should get a spell at 1st level that better reflects their choice of mystery.

Do you mean an expanded cleric spell list (which I don't think is necessary) or an extra spell known (which they should not get, since sorcerers don't get one, either)?

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KaeYoss wrote:
Yeah, who'd want a 1st level area spell? I mean, the ability to affect areas is just the biggest advantage to blast magic.

It might wound a kobald. Generally, I demand a greater than 25% chance to put a kobald on the floor, and that doesn't deliver. The only time you'd ever want to use the spell is against a swarm of enemies at low levels, and it doesn't even work then. It's a spell with a tiny, short-ranged AOE which does so little damage that it wouldn't be worth casting if the party were attacked by a pack of murderous housecats. It's just plain useless.

There are degrees. I feel that fireball is a weak spell, but it's undeniably useful. Burning hands is less useful than firing a crossbow. A scroll of burning hands, however, is best used by rolling it up and using it as a torch.

Quote:
Oh, and in case you have overlooked it all the time: magic stone is not a blast spell. It's an item buff. You cast it on an item to improve it, and then use the item. It takes an action just to cast the spell, and then you'll have to make a regular attack roll to use it. Not a blast spell. All you do with the magic is buff your pet rock.

Go back and read the spell again. You make a single attack with one of the stones as part of the casting, if you're using the stones yourself.

But here I am, falling into the trap of responding to KaeYoss's moon logic replies to sentence fragments. More important than how I feel about burning hands is the problem that oracles have with actually being able to use their themes at very low levels. That's an issue you can solve with spell lists instead of class features, though; if clerics had a better level 1 attack spell than magic stone or cause fear, it would be a lot easier to have something to do other than "I waste it with my crossbow!"


I know my english isn't good, but doesn't blast mean something like explosion?
I can't hardly see inflict spells or magic stone as blast spells.
When you talk about blast spells it seems you mean damage dealing spells.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Zark wrote:

I know my english isn't good, but doesn't blast mean something like explosion?

I can't hardly see inflict spells or magic stone as blast spells.
When you talk about blast spells it seems you mean damage dealing spells.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In this context, a "blast spell" is any spell whose purpose is at least partly to deal damage. It's a synonym for "nuke spell" or just "nuke".


A Man In Black wrote:
It might wound a kobald. Generally, I demand a greater than 25% chance to put a kobald on the floor, and that doesn't deliver. The only time you'd ever want to use the spell is against a swarm of enemies at low levels, and it doesn't even work then. It's a spell with a tiny, short-ranged AOE which does so little damage that it wouldn't be worth casting if the party were attacked by a pack of murderous housecats. It's just plain useless.

Our party would have to disagree. Actually, just the druid and wizard. One fortuituously prepped Gust of Wind from the Druid, plus one scroll of Burning Hands from the wizard, plus good use of readied actions handily wiped out two swarms of undead crows. Without those two spells, and Burning Hands in particular, we would have been in serious trouble.

And yes, I'm sure there were other ways, even more effective ways. Guess what? That's all we had, and it worked like a charm. Therefore, not useless. Situational perhaps, but so are a crapton of other spells.

Dark Archive

KaeYoss wrote:
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
stuff at the top
Awesome. I agree that Oracles should get a spell at 1st level that better reflects their choice of mystery.
Do you mean an expanded cleric spell list (which I don't think is necessary) or an extra spell known (which they should not get, since sorcerers don't get one, either)?

Well, I think that sorcerers should have gotten a bonus spell known that better reflects their bloodline. But yeah, I think a bonus spell known at first level would be great.

For being an exchange of ideas and personal gaming beliefs, this thread has gotten quite mean and heated.


A Man In Black wrote:


Go back and read the spell again. You make a single attack with one of the stones as part of the casting, if you're using the stones yourself.

I just did:

"You transmute as many as three pebbles, which can be no larger than sling bullets, so that they strike with great force when thrown or slung. If hurled, they have a range increment of 20 feet. If slung, treat them as sling bullets (range increment 50 feet). The spell gives them a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The user of the stones makes a normal ranged attack. Each stone that hits deals 1d6+1 points of damage (including the spell's enhancement bonus), or 2d6+2 points against undead."

No mentioning of getting a free attack as part of the spell. All it does is point out that you make normal attacks, as opposed to ranged touch.

A Man In Black wrote:


But here I am, falling into the trap of responding to KaeYoss's moon logic replies to sentence fragments.

By "falling into the trap" you mean "make things personal and attack the poster instead of discussing the topic"? Yeah, you fell into that trap. It's against board rules, by the way, so cut it out.


Zark wrote:

I know my english isn't good, but doesn't blast mean something like explosion?

I can't hardly see inflict spells or magic stone as blast spells.
When you talk about blast spells it seems you mean damage dealing spells.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I consider my English to be quite good, especially for a non-native speaker (I'd like to see you guys try your hand at writing German! :P), and I agree:

Blast spell doesn't mean just doing something in relation to damage-dealing. Bull's strength might increase your damage, but it's not a blast spell. Flame arrows give arrows the flaming ability (dealing fire damage), but it's not a blast spell.

Stuff like inflict spells can be considered something like "borderline blasting", since they do deal damage directly with the same action you cast the spell (not unlike a fireball being cased with a standard action and deal damage immediately thereafter), but it's true: For real blasting magic, you pretty much need evocation, and you could make a case for everything that doesn't affect an area not being true blasting magic."

And, of course, the spell's main effect needs to be damage if it's a true blasting spell. Something that makes you and your buddies deaf dumb and blind and slightly hurts you for 1d4 points of damage isn't a real blast spell. It's a hex with some dabbling in blast spell. It's not a full-fledged blast spell, and rating its merits on the damage dealing part alone or even primarily doesn't do the spell justice.


Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:


Well, I think that sorcerers should have gotten a bonus spell known that better reflects their bloodline.

I personally think that the lists of bonus spells known the sorcerers get are usually a quite good fit for those bloodlines. Creating special spells to fit the bloodlines (and domains and all that) like a glove would have been even greater, but the design goal for PF wasn't coming up with dozens of new spells (meaning they didn't have the time and resources to do it), so I think the lists are more than adequate under the circumstances.

Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:


But yeah, I think a bonus spell known at first level would be great.

The problem is that sorcerers don't get any bonus spells at 1st level, either. Giving oracles an extra spell when sorcerer's don't get one just wouldn't fit.

If you don't like it, an easy house rule is to move the 3rd-level bonus spell to 1st level (for both classes). Shouldn't mess up things too much (or at all, except that sorcerers might be more versatile now at 1st level than wizards).

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

KaeYoss wrote:
The problem is that sorcerers don't get any bonus spells at 1st level, either. Giving oracles an extra spell when sorcerer's don't get one just wouldn't fit.

Why? They're not the same class.

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