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The problem is that sorcerers don't get any bonus spells at 1st level, either. Giving oracles an extra spell when sorcerer's don't get one just wouldn't fit.
If we pretend that [Cleric=Wizard] and [Oracle=Sorcerer] and then [Cleric=Oracle] (with regards to spontaneous spell-casting) then when we examine the [Cleric=Wizard] spells per day, we notice that while they each receive one spell per day, the Cleric receives one extra domain spell. In a similar vein, the Oracle might receive an extra spell known at each level they can cast, starting with getting one at 1st level.
It sounds like your argument against a bonus spell known at 1st is based around the idea that Cleric spells and Wizard/Sorc spells are equal in power level. Can I surmise that this is correct?
The problem is that sorcerers don't get any bonus spells at 1st level, either. Giving oracles an extra spell when sorcerer's don't get one just wouldn't fit.If we pretend that [Cleric=Wizard] and [Oracle=Sorcerer] and then [Cleric=Oracle] (with regards to spontaneous spell-casting) then when we examine the [Cleric=Wizard] spells per day, we notice that while they each receive one spell per day, the Cleric receives one extra domain spell. In a similar vein, the Oracle might receive an extra spell known at each level they can cast, starting with getting one at 1st level.
It sounds like your argument against a bonus spell known at 1st is based around the idea that Cleric spells and Wizard/Sorc spells are equal in power level. Can I surmise that this is correct?
I think the idea is that Oracles are to Clerics what Sorcerers are to Wizards. A full caster, limited spell knowledge, spontaneous casting and more casts/day. Thus Oracles should use the same standard spell progression (be it spells known or casts/day) as a Sorcerer, since it's a standard, known quantity.
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Again, it sounds like your argument is backed up by an assumption that Cleric spells and Wizard/Sorc spells are equal in power level.
Many people on the forums have stated that cleric spells are weaker than Wizard/Sorc spells. If this is true, then giving Oracles more spells to choose from wouldn't create some sort of power-vacuum.
Again, it sounds like your argument is backed up by an assumption that Cleric spells and Wizard/Sorc spells are equal in power level.
Many people on the forums have stated that cleric spells are weaker than Wizard/Sorc spells. If this is true, then giving Oracles more spells to choose from wouldn't create some sort of power-vacuum.
Even though an Oracle is meant to be the divine equivilent of a Sorcerer, it doesn't mean they have to be equal in terms of spell-power. Let's not forget that Oracles get better BAB, HP, saves, proficiencies, can cast in armor, don't require 8 hours uninterrupted sleep, and have more frequent (and more customizable) class abilities. Their spellcasting does not have to be exactly on par with their arcane counterpart because they don't fill the same roles. They're just similar in concept.
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Gotcha. Okay, you've sold me. Still, I think there needs to be a spell known at 1st that reflects their mystery choice; I would be okay with removing an 'any' spell known at 1st level and giving them a spell known that better suits their mystery choice; if that spell were a traditional Wizard/Sorc spell, that would probably balance it out. Like burning hands instead of produce flame.
It might wound a kobald. Generally, I demand a greater than 25% chance to put a kobald on the floor, and that doesn't deliver. The only time you'd ever want to use the spell is against a swarm of enemies at low levels, and it doesn't even work then. It's a spell with a tiny, short-ranged AOE which does so little damage that it wouldn't be worth casting if the party were attacked by a pack of murderous housecats. It's just plain useless.[
I find this spell to be very useful. It saved us from many TPKs when we have met swarms and it's also a very god utility spell.
At level 3 it deals 3d4 in an area. This is good at level 3, but not great. But as a sorcerer/oracle you don't get level 2 spells until level 4 so I say it's pretty good. How many area spells do you get at level 3?If you think it's such a suck spell I don't get why you post in this thread. One of lastknightleft’s main arguments is that Oracles should get Burning hands. It's one of the things we are debating and this is the third thread in which he as brought this up so I guess he don't agree with you.
Well how about we think up a good 1st level spell for each mystery as a help out
For example 1st level for the flame oracle would be a great place to have burning hands.
it would actually give him something that works with the burning magic revelation at first level (as opposed to 7th)
My bold.
As for your: “It might wound a kobald. Generally, I demand a greater than 25% chance to put a kobald on the floor, and that doesn't deliver”. What do you expect from a level 1 spell? Not all spells are as good as color spray – thank God. Just as I wouldn’t use Color spray on Clerics, druids or undeads, I wouldn’t use Burning Hands on Ogres or a Devils or a rogues, but vs. swarms or kobolds or foes/monsters with weak reflex saves its great.As for your view on blast spells, do you consider Bless, Prayer, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Cat’s Grace, Greater Invisibility, etc to be blast spells? They do increase the damage %. As do Magic Weapon and Greater Magic weapon. Come to think of it, so does 99% of all spells since they help the party in one way or the other to stay alive. If you are alive (and not paralyzed, stunned or frightened) you can fight if not you can’t.
Me I don't think giving Flames would break it and make it too powerful.
I just feel Flames is powerful enough as it is now and I agree with KaeYoss, I'm not to thrilled on the concept of a divine Blaster.
The problem is that sorcerers don't get any bonus spells at 1st level, either. Giving oracles an extra spell when sorcerer's don't get one just wouldn't fit.Why? They're not the same class.
Yet it's the same concept: Bonus spells known for a full-time spontaneous spellcasting class depending on their specialisation.
Just like clerics, druids and wizards aren't the same but get the same spells/day progression, the bonus spell list for oracles and sorcerers is synchronised.
If we pretend that [Cleric=Wizard] and [Oracle=Sorcerer] and then [Cleric=Oracle] (with regards to spontaneous spell-casting) then when we examine the [Cleric=Wizard] spells per day, we notice that while they each receive one spell per day, the Cleric receives one extra domain spell.
The specialist wizard receives an extra school spell.
In a similar vein, the Oracle might receive an extra spell known at each level they can cast, starting with getting one at 1st level.
Like what? Cure/inflict spells? :D
It sounds like your argument against a bonus spell known at 1st is based around the idea that Cleric spells and Wizard/Sorc spells are equal in power level. Can I surmise that this is correct?
My argument is that the concept behind bloodline spells and mystery spells is the same, and thus they are the same.
It's the same as the general spells/day for wizards, clerics, druids (and witches; the same goes for bards, summoners and inquisitors, who all get the same spells/day and spells known progression), which has been synchronised in Pathfinder.
Oracles are going for the "primary healer" role, too, so they get cure wounds spells for free (unless they choose spontaneous inflict spells, which probably only ever makes sense if you're undead, or maybe really, really into not healing things).
It all fits.
My point, in the end, is that if a bonus known spell on 1st level were in for your "power source", it would have been in for sorcerers already. Seeing that it is not and that one of the philosophies behind pathfinder is synchronised spell progressions, I wouldn't hold my breath for this change. (Plus, the free cure spells are far more useful if you ask me!)
I just feel Flames is powerful enough as it is now and I agree with KaeYoss, I'm not to thrilled on the concept of a divine Blaster.
I'm actually not against divine blasters. Druids can be "part-time blasters", after all.
The main problem is blaster clerics. It's not in the cleric's job description to be a good blaster. And as long as oracles are tied to clerics with their spell selection, it's not really in their job description, either (unless they get revelations for that)
And I do think this is right. Clerics aren't meant to be blasters. Wizards aren't meant to be healers. That's how the game works. As long as the game sticks to the classical role distribution (which I hope is as long as I play this game), the lines will not melt.
And as long as oracles are tied to clerics with their spell selection
You're making a gigantonormous assumption here.
And as long as oracles are tied to clerics with their spell selectionYou're making a gigantonormous assumption here.
Well, the fact that they have been using the cleric list so far manifests a severely augmented reduce assumption on that assumption.
You think they will change the spell list now? I think that's the bigger assumption.