First off, I love it. The Alchemist is the class I thematically loved best when it first was revealed, and the changes make me :D big time. I'm just eyeballing it right now, so I'll look at the main abilities and a few discoveries. Mostly bomb discoveries. Pretty much primarily bomb discovers. I like bombs.
A few changes I so very strongly support:
Spellbook: Yes. That's more or less all I can say here. Yes.
Bombs. As a straight standard action, they're now far more usable, and they're at the place they've always needed to be. The twenty foot range means they no longer have to be standing right next to enemies when they use it. A well deserved change!
Brew Potion: Just like bombs, this is something that should - and now is :D - an iconic part of the class.
Mutations: The changes make this much more usable for all alchemists. Now the discoveries give you the choice between having a decent stand by with the standard mutation, or pumping it into something awesome. Very appreciative of this change, as I rarely if ever used mutation before - now even bomb alchemists can see the chance for them to chug it down.
Discoveries at every 2 levels: See spellbook comments. Also, yes.
Again, eyeballing discoveries for the most part, but already I love precise and fast bombs - the bomb alchemist will finally get some respect! I'm sure some will complain about having only one delayed bomb, but hey, haters gonna hate.
End result: This is exactly what I wanted to see. It's beautiful. I sincerely cannot wait to see how this tests out. Thank you :D
Edit: Cleared up a few things
Yeah I got to say I think the alchemist is completely spot on now. I can't wait to to play it and have added it to my ever grow list of things I want to play.
The final play-test version is exactly what I wanted the class to be. This class now feels complete to me.
Can't wait until friday to update my alchemist. I am really looking forward to this.
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Man, this makes me wish that this did come out Wednesday, because we just started a new campaign on Sunday and I would have loved to make an Alchemist with these changes. Now if my character dies I have to choose whether I want to be the updated Soulknife (currently in Beta) or this. Thanks for the tough decisions, Jason (and the rest of the development team)!
Man, this makes me wish that this did come out Wednesday, because we just started a new campaign on Sunday and I would have loved to make an Alchemist with these changes. Now if my character dies I have to choose whether I want to be the updated Soulknife (currently in Beta) or this. Thanks for the tough decisions, Jason (and the rest of the development team)!
I'm with you. I actually have a currently built Soulknife based on our DSP Beta, but this alchemist is looking pretty sweet (and the campaign the soulknife will be in hasn't actually started yet). Plus the summoner makes me happy, though I don't like all of the changes.
I'm actually glad Soulknife was brought up, because there's a huge similarity between the two.
Namely, both classes had concepts I love, both were mechanically terrible, and now both are mechanically great to fit the cool concept
:D
Much more Dr. Jekyll and much less "I'm a Sorceror that plays with poisonous mushrooms and melts bat guano in cheap booze"
Exactly. This is a game of fantasy role-play, I do that at home just about every evening. Oh. 8-P
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While I love a lot of the Alchemist class I'm honestly still disappointed in mutegens, mechanically they function well now, but they're still boring as all get out. There are only 4 mutagen discoveries, 2 of which just boost numbers. Compare that with 16 discoveries for bombs, lots of which provide unique abilities and none of which are straight # bonuses because the bombs #s grow with the character.
This is dull dull dull. Don't get me wrong I like the changes, but really with all of the things I can think of to make into mutagen abilities you came up with only 4 friggen discoveries. once again only 2 actually being interesting while the other 2 are needed to increase #s.
Seriously make a couple of interesting mutagen effects please. Right now the only interesting alchemists are bomberman alchemists. If you want a jeckyl/hyde alchemist you're as stock and predictable as an episode of full house.
Except that a mutagen alchemist is going to be a much more powerful combatant when it comes to using his shapeshifting extracts. All of the bonuses from those extracts stack with mutagen now. You can get your strength way up there now.
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Except that a mutagen alchemist is going to be a much more powerful combatant when it comes to using his shapeshifting extracts. All of the bonuses from those extracts stack with mutagen now. You can get your strength way up there now.
I'm not talking #s like I said mechanically it works. I'm talking effect there are only two mutagen effects right now.
1)bite and claw
2)stat boost.
Compare to the types of bombs we have
acid bombs
fire bombs
smoke bombs
bombs that make you crazy
sonic bombs
force bombs
glue bombs
etc.
see where I'm going with this.
And while you can get good numbers with a mutagen, that doesn't change the fact that it's gonna be obvious whats gonna happen when you drink one. Either a) you get stronger or b) you grow claws. like I said, as predictable as an episode of full house.
So drink a mutagen then use an extract to turn into anything from a tiny animal to giant. I agree that mutagen by itself is plain as white bread, but it works in sync with an existing class feature rather well.
The only benefit bombs get from extracts right now is boosting your hit. Whoo....
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So drink a mutagen then use an extract to turn into anything from a tiny animal to giant. I agree that mutagen by itself is plain as white bread, but it works in sync with an existing class feature rather well.
The only benefit bombs get from extracts right now is boosting your hit. Whoo....
no you can beast shape and use bombs just as easily as you can beast shape and use mutagens.
You're arguing that something you can do with either somehow benefits one more than the other and I don't get it.
Not to mention that using extracts doesn't make using mutagens more interesting, just mechanically better. and actually beast shaping makes one of the 4 discoveries you get absolutely useless. Why take the discovery for bite and claws when you can just beast shape into a lion? So by your argument the mutagens become even more dull as dirt.
Well seeing as how all your equipment is absorbed into whatever you beastshape into I'm not really sure how you're going to be throwing bombs around. Especially if you have no hands. A player who wants to go the mutagen route is more likely to stack their physical stats so they will actually benefit from the shapeshift spells in combat. Whereas a bombe right just use them for their utility.
And yes, Feral Mutagen is still lame. It would be a fall back for when you're not a dire tiger.
I'm not saying mutagens are amazingly awesome. Just that as they are now they are an effective part of the class. Making them even more powerful would be tricky without becoming overpowered.
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Well seeing as how all your equipment is absorbed into whatever you beastshape into I'm not really sure how you're going to be throwing bombs around. Especially if you have no hands. A player who wants to go the mutagen route is more likely to stack their physical stats so they will actually benefit from the shapeshift spells in combat. Whereas a bombe right just use them for their utility.
And yes, Feral Mutagen is still lame. It would be a fall back for when you're not a dire tiger.
I'm not saying mutagens are amazingly awesome. Just that as they are now they are an effective part of the class. Making them even more powerful would be tricky without becoming overpowered.
Set your backpack or belt down, beast shape into a dire ape. Bite and claws and the ability to manipulate tools and bomb something. You can even make bombs while in ape shape.
You'll loose 2 move actions, but still be able to beast shape and bomb something in two turns.
And I didn't say they were aweful or that they didn't work mechanically. I said they were dissapointing and dull. because they have so much more potential that isn't being exploited. I say this in the hopes that Jason will think up a couple more mutagen discoveries, is there anything wrong with that?
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Well seeing as how all your equipment is absorbed into whatever you beastshape into I'm not really sure how you're going to be throwing bombs around. Especially if you have no hands. A player who wants to go the mutagen route is more likely to stack their physical stats so they will actually benefit from the shapeshift spells in combat. Whereas a bombe right just use them for their utility.
And yes, Feral Mutagen is still lame. It would be a fall back for when you're not a dire tiger.
I'm not saying mutagens are amazingly awesome. Just that as they are now they are an effective part of the class. Making them even more powerful would be tricky without becoming overpowered.
You can still use your extracts to heal yourself, add to dex( with mutagen and extracts ), increase armor( mutagen and extracts ), reduce person, etc, etc, etc. You get plenty of benefits using your extracts while throwing bombs. Most likely even more than if you beast shape while using a mutagen. The decrease to your mental ability scores could deprive you of some of your "spell" levels if the ability score drops far enough. Also while in beast form you can't use any more extracts whereas you are free to throw bombs or use extracts( or anything else ). The bombs in and of themselves do a lot of damage. Increasing your dex with a mutagen gives you a better chance to hit than increasing your strength as your bombs are touch attacks.
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You can still use your extracts to heal yourself, add to dex( with mutagen and extracts ), increase armor( mutagen and extracts ), reduce person, etc, etc, etc. You get plenty of benefits using your extracts while throwing bombs. Most likely even more than if you beast shape while using a mutagen. The decrease to your mental ability scores could deprive you of some of your "spell" levels if the ability score drops far enough. Also while in beast form you can't use any more extracts whereas you are free to throw bombs or use extracts( or anything else ). The bombs in and of themselves do a lot of damage. Increasing your dex with a mutagen gives you a better chance to hit than increasing your strength as your bombs are touch attacks.Well seeing as how all your equipment is absorbed into whatever you beastshape into I'm not really sure how you're going to be throwing bombs around. Especially if you have no hands. A player who wants to go the mutagen route is more likely to stack their physical stats so they will actually benefit from the shapeshift spells in combat. Whereas a bombe right just use them for their utility.
And yes, Feral Mutagen is still lame. It would be a fall back for when you're not a dire tiger.
I'm not saying mutagens are amazingly awesome. Just that as they are now they are an effective part of the class. Making them even more powerful would be tricky without becoming overpowered.
Exactly, all of the abilities are pretty synergistic, but two have a whole lot going for them and one is more plain than vanilla. and there are lots of things you could do that wouldn't increase it's power but rather change it's utility (in the same way as the bite and claws discovery)
I was meaning from a strict damage point of view. Aside from boosting your hit extracts can't be used to increase the damage that bombs can do (luckily there is the large selection of bomb discoveries). Whereas extracts really boost the damage potential of mutagen.
Maybe we'll see some mutagen related feats to help fluff it up a bit.
I'm not going to flog it because I already mentioned it in the previous playtest phase,
but I think having Polymorphs into Monstrous Humanoid Form would be more flavorful and allow for more interesting abilities.
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I was meaning from a strict damage point of view. Aside from boosting your hit extracts can't be used to increase the damage that bombs can do (luckily there is the large selection of bomb discoveries). Whereas extracts really boost the damage potential of mutagen.
Maybe we'll see some mutagen related feats to help fluff it up a bit.
You can increase your intelligence by 4 using extracts. This increases bomb damage by 2. if you target the intersection of a square, rather than a person it is ac 5. You are exceedingly likely to hit the intersection. That is potentially 2 extra damage to 4 creatures with a probably 5% chance of failure. However, if you stack strength, your damage increases, but your chance of successfully hitting the target is probably not 95%. I would contend that the increase in intelligence would promote a higher damage/round yield than increasing your strength. At least until much higher levels.
Does STR bonus apply to damage on ranged touch attacks?
I thought only for 'normal' attacks....?????
Strength bonus doesn't apply to the bomb damage. However, intelligence bonus does... if you could specify where your question came from it would be helpful.
Sorry, I took it you were discussing INT/STR bonuses in relevance to the damage output of the Bomb class ability ("if you stack strength, your damage increases, but your chance of successfully hitting the target is probably not 95%.") but I guess you weren't doing quite the 1:1 comparison I thought (I guess you were implicitly referencing that Bombs are easier to hit Touch AC 95% of the time than normal Melee Attacks against Armor AC). Carry on. :-)
You can increase your intelligence by 4 using extracts. This increases bomb damage by 2. if you target the intersection of a square, rather than a person it is ac 5. You are exceedingly likely to hit the intersection. That is potentially 2 extra damage to 4 creatures with a probably 5% chance of failure. However, if you stack strength, your damage increases, but your chance of successfully hitting the target is probably not 95%. I would contend that the increase in intelligence would promote a higher damage/round yield than increasing your strength. At least until much higher levels.
There's no way to increase your Intelligence with a mutagen. Only your physical stats. Perhaps you're thinking of an extract. That would be Eagle's splendor.
You can increase your intelligence by 4 using extracts. This increases bomb damage by 2. if you target the intersection of a square, rather than a person it is ac 5. You are exceedingly likely to hit the intersection. That is potentially 2 extra damage to 4 creatures with a probably 5% chance of failure. However, if you stack strength, your damage increases, but your chance of successfully hitting the target is probably not 95%. I would contend that the increase in intelligence would promote a higher damage/round yield than increasing your strength. At least until much higher levels.There's no way to increase your Intelligence with a mutagen. Only your physical stats. Perhaps you're thinking of an extract. That would be Eagle's splendor.
I believe the previous poster was talking about an extract of Fox's cunning, though...
The extract I never bother using because top priority is a headband of Int which doesn't stack.
Seems like Fox's would have better Charisma then Eagle's...
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You can increase your intelligence by 4 using This increases bomb damage by 2. if you target the intersection of a square, rather than a person it is ac 5. You are exceedingly likely to hit the intersection. That is potentially 2 extra damage to 4 creatures with a probably 5% chance of failure. However, if you stack strength, your damage increases, but your chance of successfully hitting the target is probably not 95%. I would contend that the increase in intelligence would promote a higher damage/round yield than increasing your strength. At least until much higher levels.There's no way to increase your Intelligence with a mutagen. Only your physical stats. Perhaps you're thinking of an extract. That would be Eagle's splendor.
He specifically said extracts (see bolded above that you yourself quoted) and was in response to your statement that you couldn't use extracts to increase your damage output with bombs in the way you could when combining mutagens and extracts.
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He specifically said extracts (see bolded above that you yourself quoted) and was in response to your statement that you couldn't use extracts to increase your damage output with bombs in the way you could when combining mutagens and extracts.You can increase your intelligence by 4 using This increases bomb damage by 2. if you target the intersection of a square, rather than a person it is ac 5. You are exceedingly likely to hit the intersection. That is potentially 2 extra damage to 4 creatures with a probably 5% chance of failure. However, if you stack strength, your damage increases, but your chance of successfully hitting the target is probably not 95%. I would contend that the increase in intelligence would promote a higher damage/round yield than increasing your strength. At least until much higher levels.There's no way to increase your Intelligence with a mutagen. Only your physical stats. Perhaps you're thinking of an extract. That would be Eagle's splendor.
Correct. Also an increase in hit % directly corresponds to an increase in damage/round. And the increase in Dex provided by the mutagen ability increases your hit % with bombs. So would the dex increase from the Cat's Grace extract. While the above wouldn't help much if you already had a high dex and targeted a grid intersection, they would help you target specific individuals and drastically increase your chance of hitting( by 20% using the base mutagen ability ). This would increase your damage on the initial target as well as allowing you to hit the 8 adjacent squares with splash damage.
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Correct. Also an increase in hit % directly corresponds to an increase in damage/round. And the increase in Dex provided by the mutagen ability increases your hit % with bombs. So would the dex increase from the Cat's Grace extract. While the above wouldn't help much if you already had a high dex and targeted a grid intersection, they would help you target specific individuals and drastically increase your chance of hitting( by 20% using the base mutagen ability ). This would increase your damage on the initial target as well as allowing you to hit the 8 adjacent squares with splash damage.
Like I said, I like how the new alchemist works (his abilities show great synergy, I was just disspointed in how dull mutagens wound up.
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Correct. Also an increase in hit % directly corresponds to an increase in damage/round. And the increase in Dex provided by the mutagen ability increases your hit % with bombs. So would the dex increase from the Cat's Grace extract. While the above wouldn't help much if you already had a high dex and targeted a grid intersection, they would help you target specific individuals and drastically increase your chance of hitting( by 20% using the base mutagen ability ). This would increase your damage on the initial target as well as allowing you to hit the 8 adjacent squares with splash damage.Like I said, I like how the new alchemist works (his abilities show great synergy, I was just disspointed in how dull mutagens wound up.
I agree. I was hoping for more of the Mr. Hyde...
Maybe a hulking form mutagen that makes you large sized?
Enlarge Person potions and extracts are easy to make. If it is clarified that the extract discovery to blend extracts and potions allows you to combine an extract with a mutagen, then this becomes pretty reasonable.
I know where Lastknightleft is coming from. Historically, alchemy also included an aspect of spiritual enlightnment and transformation toward perfection. I would not mind seeing a divine-aspect mutagen that serves as a opposite to the beastial one. Perhaps it would grant wings and some from of protection from evil or a healing touch. The posibilites are still there, they just have not been touched on yet.