Personally, I am offended by this. I fail to see how it promotes gang-related activity.
[Thread Jack]
*Swings in on a rope*
Did you need help, citizen?
He killed his sister's boyfriend. With a sledgehammer.
f@%# him.
And yet, if I told you "the boyfriend threatened the sister with a knife," all of the sudden this convict goes from "brutal murderer" to "unjustly imprisoned hero" in a heartbeat, and we get a whole thread about how he should be released and declared the messiah, and how everyone wishes they could be just like him.
Just sayin'...
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He killed his sister's boyfriend. With a sledgehammer.
f@%# him.And yet, if I told you "the boyfriend threatened the sister with a knife," all of the sudden this convict goes from "brutal murderer" to "unjustly imprisoned hero" in a heartbeat, and we get a whole thread about how he should be released and declared the messiah, and how everyone wishes they could be just like him.
Just sayin'...
My thoughts also. I personally don't know the case about his incarceration so I won't attack his character. Could be the dude beat on his sister, threatened her, etc. and maybe he went overboard a bit but we don't really know....
He killed his sister's boyfriend. With a sledgehammer.
f@%# him.And yet, if I told you "the boyfriend threatened the sister with a knife," all of the sudden this convict goes from "brutal murderer" to "unjustly imprisoned hero" in a heartbeat, and we get a whole thread about how he should be released and declared the messiah, and how everyone wishes they could be just like him.
Just sayin'...
*sigh*
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In the hands of a well-balanced Dungeonmaster, the game Dungeons & Dragons can not only teach social interaction, balance self-reliance and reliance on others, and delineate between fantasy and reality, it can demonstrate that a majority of social issues can be resolved without violence and that creative analysis is a superior method of thought.
There's my quote for the day.
In the hands of a well-balanced Dungeonmaster, the game Dungeons & Dragons can not only teach social interaction, balance self-reliance and reliance on others, and delineate between fantasy and reality, it can demonstrate that a majority of social issues can be resolved without violence and that creative analysis is a superior method of thought.
And in the hands of a twisted jackass dungeonmaster, what does it teach?
I checked with the prison psychologists here. They were of the opinion that D&D would generally be a negative influence on inmates.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Penny Arcade, FTW:
The story about a prisoner deprived of his Dungeon Master's Guide and custom campaign world resonated. It sucks when the guards are all coming down on your s&*@, and, like, taking your stuff, but it also sucks pretty bad to be beaten to death with a sledgehammer, which is what this guy did to get in there. Tends to dilute the sympathy.
Penny Arcade, FTW:
The story about a prisoner deprived of his Dungeon Master's Guide and custom campaign world resonated. It sucks when the guards are all coming down on your s*&@, and, like, taking your stuff, but it also sucks pretty bad to be beaten to death with a sledgehammer, which is what this guy did to get in there. Tends to dilute the sympathy.
He's mistaken. The guy in prison was not beaten to death with a sledgehammer.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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He's mistaken. The guy in prison was not beaten to death with a sledgehammer.Penny Arcade, FTW:
The story about a prisoner deprived of his Dungeon Master's Guide and custom campaign world resonated. It sucks when the guards are all coming down on your s*&@, and, like, taking your stuff, but it also sucks pretty bad to be beaten to death with a sledgehammer, which is what this guy did to get in there. Tends to dilute the sympathy.
Er...I think he's saying that the guy in prison beat someone else to death with a sledgehammer and thus found himself in prison and had his D&D stuff confiscated...
We made the news, folks. link
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We made the news, folks. linkThis was my response to the article.
As a regular poster on the Paizo message board I would say that the reaction to this issue has been mixed. There is not a general consensus that prisioners should not have "anything fun at all," in fact if anything that is the minority opinion. In Mr. Singer's case however, he is sentenced to life in prison, presumably without parole, for his crime. Therefore reformation and rehabilitation would take a back seat to punitive purposes in his particular case.
While I feel for Mr. Singer as a fellow gamer, I also feel for the family of his victim. I don't believe that there should be an outright ban on RPGs in prison, but I do think that some people can take it to extremes and prison officials have judgement calls to make. In this case it appears that the prison officials decided that a general ban would present less of a problem legally then a decision on a case by case basis, and the appeals court agreed. Please don't present gamers as one sided bigots. That is not the case.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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During the anti-D&D craze of the early 1980's I was a freelancer working for TSR, and a reasonably articulate public speaker, so I was called upon to discuss the issue and debate concerned people every so often.
Leaving aside the religious concerns, one of the most effective objections to the game was: "Role-playing is one of the most effective techniques for rehearsing a reaction to a particular situation. And D&D trains its players that the right way to settle differences with people is to attack them until they are dead."
I can hear your responses: No, there are lots of ways to play D&D. You don't have to "kick down the door, kill everything, and loot the dead bodies".
"Yes," came the most articulate objectors. "But that's not how the game is presented. Take a look at the published modules." And they were right. Adventure after adventure, the right answer was always combat. Orcs, trolls, giants, liches, dragons. Kill anything that you disagree with. Kill anything that might have loot for you to steal.
Can D&D be a good tool for modeling mature behavior? It can, but only by swimming against the current. D&D is, as it sits on your shelf and as it's played every Friday evening, an adolescent power fantasy. And maybe not the best social outlet for guys who have shown themselves to be all too willing to solve problems with violence.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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"Role-playing is one of the most effective techniques for rehearsing a reaction to a particular situation. And D&D trains its players that the right way to settle differences with people is to attack them until they are dead."
It's a good strategy. I resolve most conflicts in life by murdering the other party.
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It's a good strategy. I resolve most conflicts in life by murdering the other party."Role-playing is one of the most effective techniques for rehearsing a reaction to a particular situation. And D&D trains its players that the right way to settle differences with people is to attack them until they are dead."
I still want to get the 8-bit theater tee shirt that says "I solve my problems with violence."
1) Most prisons already ban games like D&D, or any game using dice. The fruit loops haven't been able to use that to prove anything, any more than they've been able to ban knives or cigarettes because they're banned in prison.
2) Those fruit loops haven't accomplished ANYTHING regarding squelching RPGs since the 80s--a decade, mind you, where D&D was at its MOST successful. BADD, led by is founder and head fruit loop Pat Pulling has had zero members since she died in 1997.
"The fruit loops" don't need to prove anything to make the life of a bunch of teenagers in some high school somewhere more miserable. They never had to prove anything. They just needed to scare a few principals into banning the game and convince a few teachers that they should keep an eye on certain students.
No, I don't think table-top roleplaying will ever be the target it once was. The hobby is simply not that big of a target compared to computer games.
I think that adult gamers need to be ready to counter claims that D&D leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling” with some ready answers such as:
(1) Hockey leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling".
(2) D&D leads to literacy, better math skills, improved vocabulary, and knowing when to eliminate the word 'will' from your sentences.
Heh.
There should be a Fellowship of Gamers in Education. Maybe the name needs work.
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1) Most prisons already ban games like D&D, or any game using dice. The fruit loops haven't been able to use that to prove anything, any more than they've been able to ban knives or cigarettes because they're banned in prison.
2) Those fruit loops haven't accomplished ANYTHING regarding squelching RPGs since the 80s--a decade, mind you, where D&D was at its MOST successful. BADD, led by is founder and head fruit loop Pat Pulling has had zero members since she died in 1997.
"The fruit loops" don't need to prove anything to make the life of a bunch of teenagers in some high school somewhere more miserable. They never had to prove anything. They just needed to scare a few principals into banning the game and convince a few teachers that they should keep an eye on certain students.
No, I don't think table-top roleplaying will ever be the target it once was. The hobby is simply not that big of a target compared to computer games.
I think that adult gamers need to be ready to counter claims that D&D leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling” with some ready answers such as:
(1) Hockey leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling".
(2) D&D leads to literacy, better math skills, improved vocabulary, and knowing when to eliminate the word 'will' from your sentences.
Heh.
There should be a Fellowship of Gamers in Education. Maybe the name needs work.
GAMA used to print guidebooks for using RPGs and CCGs as educational tools in the class room.
Guffaw!
GAMA, eh? Too bad that was in the past.
I love how the Examiner quoted Mona. He should prepare for further media contact, and ways of subliminally advertising PfRPG and Planet Stories during such opportunities.
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He killed his sister's boyfriend. With a sledgehammer.
f@%# him.And yet, if I told you "the boyfriend threatened the sister with a knife," all of the sudden this convict goes from "brutal murderer" to "unjustly imprisoned hero" in a heartbeat, and we get a whole thread about how he should be released and declared the messiah, and how everyone wishes they could be just like him.
Just sayin'...
What toothpaste should I use? I don't know.
What toothpaste should I use? I don't know.
Tastes great! ... Less filling!
It's a good strategy. I resolve most conflicts in life by murdering the other party."Role-playing is one of the most effective techniques for rehearsing a reaction to a particular situation. And D&D trains its players that the right way to settle differences with people is to attack them until they are dead."
*tounge firmly planted in cheek*
I can see that about you sebastian, it's always the cute horsey icons that you never see comeing until they are on the 6'oclock news haveing dismembered some one with a chainsaw.
...the cute horsey icons...
I really need to get me one of those.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I managed to find one that was still posted.GAMA, eh? Too bad that was in the past.
I have a great deal of interest in this subject and can even work it into my paid work. Thanks for the link David.
I have a great deal of interest in this subject and can even work it into my paid work. Thanks for the link David.I managed to find one that was still posted.GAMA, eh? Too bad that was in the past.
I will completely get behind a project in this area in which TD does all the real work and I cheer him on.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I will completely get behind a project in this area in which TD does all the real work and I cheer him on.I have a great deal of interest in this subject and can even work it into my paid work. Thanks for the link David.I managed to find one that was still posted.GAMA, eh? Too bad that was in the past.
Let's break off another thread to talk about games in education. But where to put it? Gamer life?
Sounds like a good spot.
I am of two minds on this. First I know for fact the positive impact playing this game can have in building problem solving, analytical and social skills. This would seem to be a good thing in prison since they are not only there for incarceration for crimes committed but to be rehabilitated so they might return to society as more productive individuals. I recall back in the 80's Dragon magazine had a letter from the editor in which this issue was addressed. At that time the battle was won and the prisoners allowed to have their fun.
Then on the other hand we have a murderer who took someone's life away. What about their victim? They can't play a simple game, or spend time with their loved ones anymore because someone ended their life. So why should the murderer have the fun his victim is no longer able to have? I suppose it would be fairer to determine on a case by case basis whether Joe in Cell 3 gets to play D&D because Joe is a model prisoner and has not had any disciplinary measures vs Jack in Cell 4 who is constantly disruptive to order and has been in trouble quite a bit. As far as their rights go I personally think they have given up those rights when they did whatever they did to be imprisoned in the first place. Murderers serving life sentences or on death row should get the very bare minimum of any special considerations. If anything, I personally believe these felons on death row should be executed to alleviate some of the overcrowded conditions our prisons already have.
I suppose you then consider the custom of a "last meal" or a "last request" for the condemned to be a waste of taxpayer dollars, rather than the barest nod of human compassion and decency.
As for the victim, I think the dislike/superstitious fear of speaking ill of the dead leads to them invariably being painted as dewy-eyed innocents and faultless angels, completely at odds with the people you meet it reality. Yes, they can't spend time with their loved ones, but by the same token, they can't beat their girlfriends either--and I'll go ahead and speculate about the dead, because generally speaking, if he were "Best Sister's Boyfriend Eva!" one wonders why anyone would want to bludgeon him to death.
But I don't know the particulars of the case beyond a base description and the sentence, and I strongly suspect neither does anyone here. All we have left is the person who's been judged guilty, and if we can dispense with revenge fantasies of previous ages such as feeding the condemned cold maggoty gruel, gathering the villagers together to spit on them, and finally shutting them in a barrel lined with nails and rolling them down the hill such that what you take out on the other end is somewhere between mincemeat and chunky salsa....
What, we're not finished with the revenge fantasies? What about if we feed the remains to stray dogs and what they don't eat, we bury under a disco, so the grave can be danced on continually? Happy now?
As has been mentioned upstream, modern prisons are supposed to be "correctional facilities," and if that's being used to mean what it's supposed to mean--as opposed to a euphemism for "torture dungeon"--then we need to allow prisoners things we in free society consider good for society's betterment: books, movies, exercise, sports, music, and yes, games.
Roleplaying games are a form of interactive improvisational theatre and a good game master not only runs a game for his own enjoyment, he does it for the enjoyment of others. A storyteller has an audience, the same as a musician, and it would take a seriously paranoid mind (such as Captain Muraski's) to argue that a group of music fans is a gang or that a musician is a gang leader.
And don't forget, what's accepted by the law to be true inside of prison is generally accepted by the law to be true outside: Captain Muraski is pointing the finger at all of us and accusing us of gang activity. And currently that accusation is being upheld.
If human compassion won't make some of us stop applauding it maybe enlightened self-interest might.
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That's sad. The warden where I was locked up would remark that my players, even the ones IN gangs, were much better behaved than the general population. It took a lot to get the prison officials to increase my book limit so I could have enough materials to run a diverse game (my Dungeon sub was particularly helpful, thanks Paizo guys!), but they eventually gave in when they saw how harmless and positive the game was for our morale. It also didn't hurt that the GED students in my game would get their certificates, on average, two tries earlier than the gen pop (hooray math and English!).
My table even helped ease racial tensions, as I had an "all comers" policy, and had tangos, Crips, Emme, TS, DWB and AC people playing at the same table.
Too bad the Wisconsin prison officials seem so short sighted, D&D is a positive influence on people with little to really care about while they're locked up.
<sits down and eats some popcorn waiting for HD to come in and drop his two bits on the topic>Sorry it took so long, moved out of my old home and wont have a laptop until next week.
Yeah, I was wondering. Hope the move turned out well.
<sits down and eats some popcorn waiting for HD to come in and drop his two bits on the topic>Sorry it took so long, moved out of my old home and wont have a laptop until next week.
FINALLY! I was beginning to run low on stores in my shelter, here. Have at it, man.
Also: Congrats on the move. Where are you now? I take it you like the new place, but will you miss the old?
That's sad. The warden where I was locked up would remark that my players, even the ones IN gangs, were much better behaved than the general population. It took a lot to get the prison officials to increase my book limit so I could have enough materials to run a diverse game (my Dungeon sub was particularly helpful, thanks Paizo guys!), but they eventually gave in when they saw how harmless and positive the game was for our morale. It also didn't hurt that the GED students in my game would get their certificates, on average, two tries earlier than the gen pop (hooray math and English!).
My table even helped ease racial tensions, as I had an "all comers" policy, and had tangos, Crips, Emme, TS, DWB and AC people playing at the same table.
Too bad the Wisconsin prison officials seem so short sighted, D&D is a positive influence on people with little to really care about while they're locked up.
Thanks for dropping in and giving your insight from the other side.
It looks like one of the things the Judge is waiting for is a letter from someone in law enforcement attesting to the positive benefits of gaming. If your former warden could write something about the positive effect of your games, that would likely help Singer's appeal.
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derek, thanks for posting. And congratulations on the move.
What kind of adventures were you running? And did you ever have to address --to either the staff or other inmates-- issues of in-game violence?
I ran a mix of homebrew and Dungeon adventures, and I kept the game PG for the most part. The players were remarkably not interested in playing criminal types, they tended to go for the more typical "heroic" archetypes. I think I only had one evil character in the six years I ran a table, and he had a very good background/in game reason for it, and it worked out very well.
The only resistance I got the whole time there was from the hyper-Christian Recreation Director who refused to allow me a classroom to run games in, but couldn't stop us from playing in the rec yard common areas, or the common areas in the housing units.
Seriously, I got a lot of respect from the gang leaders and shot callers for giving dudes something to do that wasn't shanking each other or causing problems.
That's sad. The warden where I was locked up would remark that my players, even the ones IN gangs, were much better behaved than the general population. It took a lot to get the prison officials to increase my book limit so I could have enough materials to run a diverse game (my Dungeon sub was particularly helpful, thanks Paizo guys!), but they eventually gave in when they saw how harmless and positive the game was for our morale. It also didn't hurt that the GED students in my game would get their certificates, on average, two tries earlier than the gen pop (hooray math and English!).
My table even helped ease racial tensions, as I had an "all comers" policy, and had tangos, Crips, Emme, TS, DWB and AC people playing at the same table.
Too bad the Wisconsin prison officials seem so short sighted, D&D is a positive influence on people with little to really care about while they're locked up.
WHoops, I missed your post.
Wow. Looks like I didn't need this shelter after all.
Good to hear a story of the good things D&D/roleplaying can do in the prison system.
What, we're not finished with the revenge fantasies? What about if we feed the remains to stray dogs and what they don't eat, we bury under a disco, so the grave can be danced on continually? Happy now?
Isn't it ironic that people see red and would feel justified in killing this guy because he saw red and felt justified killing another guy?
And for MasterDM1 to come out with "I personally believe these felons on death row should be executed to alleviate some of the overcrowded conditions our prisons already have" - well maybe the prisons wouldn't be so crowded if we as a society stopped and thought about why all those dudes were there. Anyhow, top points for passion and humanity.
So that aside, we have the key problem that:
And don't forget, what's accepted by the law to be true inside of prison is generally accepted by the law to be true outside: Captain Muraski is pointing the finger at all of us and accusing us of gang activity. And currently that accusation is being upheld.
Which is all too true, and an accusation that a few posters here have unwittingly upheld.
So out of prisons now, then how long to out of schools, colleges, etc?
Yes, and once it's banned in schools and colleges, they'll ban it in PRIVATE CLUBS and even OUR VERY THOUGHTS.
*That* is a slippery slope argument.
We're talking about prisons.
Specifically, one prison.
Specifically, one prisoner.
Who's not in there for rehabilitation (he has a life sentence).
And he failed to prove his case.
As I said on Monte's boards
I believe that prison should serve a rehabilitative purpose. But this guy has a life sentence. He's not getting out, he's not going to be reformed and come back to society. When we have people in this country losing their homes and forced to live on the street, and this guy is getting three square and a roof over his head for free, forever, I don't think that's right. I don't think he should be killed, I don't think he should be tortured, I don't think he should be forced to break rocks all day for the rest of his life (in fact, giving him another hammer is a bad idea), but I do think his prison sentence should be more punitive than just "you are confined to this prison but can otherwise do anything any other citizen could do."
The COs think D&D is dangerous in the context of a prison. It certainly can be. But don't start applying the "prison litmus test" to everyday life; that's what the ban-happy jerks do--like when someone who plays video games goes on a killing spree (they blame the video games, not the psycho who shot people), the jerks try to ban video games.
that's what the ban-happy jerks do--like when someone who plays video games goes on a killing spree (they blame the video games, not the psycho who shot people), the jerks try to ban video games.
...and those ban happy jerks keep gaining traction.
We are seeing enormous push back here in Australia, with these 'jerks' gaining momentum precisely because of issues like this getting legs.
There's a long and shameful ban list that gets added to regularly, and findings like this that go unchecked just add more fuel to the fire.
At the end of the day though, the authorities can still swing a ban stick in prison all they like... all the crims need to do its just rename their activity "Dragons and Dungeons", have a lite rulesystem and an outcome generation system based on something other than dice (flip coins?) and away they go.
The only people who have lost anything here is we, the gamers, as our hobby gets another 'credible' hit to it's reputation as a legitimate passtime.
Sure, you can fob it all off because you claim it's just one dude, in just one prison, but frankly its just another precedent that has been set that rolls on very easily to affect others.
My view is that your assessment of his lot in life (no rehab, just punishment) is a little off as well. I'd far prefer him relaxing and playing D&D and not bothering others rather than starting trouble and ending up shanking some guy who is there doing time for an unpaid parking ticket. History is FULL of people who were killed by lifers with nothing to lose and too much time on their hands over the most trivial matter, when the victim was only supposed to be in for a short while.
The problem is that given what this guy did, he is a pretty easy target for disdain - even though you don't actually know ANY of the background of why he did what he did (and if he's TRULY that bad, he wouldn't be mixing much with other inmates) - but try seeing past that and looking at the big picture.
A greater understanding of the penal system, rehabilitation, and general 'life inside' might broaden your perspective.
Yes, and once it's banned in schools and colleges, they'll ban it in PRIVATE CLUBS and even OUR VERY THOUGHTS.
*That* is a slippery slope argument.
We're talking about prisons.
Specifically, one prison.
Specifically, one prisoner.
Who's not in there for rehabilitation (he has a life sentence).
And he failed to prove his case.
Did you actually read the judge's ruling?
The ban applies to all prisoners in that prison, not just the lifers, not just one specific lifer. The lifer was simply the one that brought the lawsuit, for the simple fact that he's going to be there the longest and has both the time and the interest to bring the suit.
As for "he failed to prove his case" you also skip over the "this time" inherent in all such pleas. He can appeal, and from what the judge laid out in his ruling, and the analysis over at some of the legal blogs, what the judge is wanting is the same things said by the various prisoners and academics to be repeated by some witnesses in law enforcement.
And as has been mentioned on some of the legal blogs, it's also interesting that this may be used to impeach Captain Muraski's credibility in other cases for which he's a witness. All a lawyer has to do is ask "So, Captain Muraski. Is it also true that you believe that D&D leads to gang activity, and a dungeon master is the same as a gang leader?"