I guess it just strikes me as strange that the XP gain is so much all over the map with Kingmaker. Module 3 and 4 need additional random encounters to make even a four PC party gain the supposed level they should have at the end of the module. Module one has exactly enough XP for a four PC party, module two has enough XP for a five PC party to get to the desired level.
Are you including XP for quests (all of them), exploration, and kingdom building?
I moved to "level when I say" a while ago, so I haven't crunched numbers--too busy filling my game with personal quests and plotlines, but I would think that, if one were to include all the ways to gain XP beyond killing things, that it would fall pretty close to the mark (expecting there to be some amount of random encounters).
If you just add up XP from all the CRs included, I doubt it will amount to the right level.
I guess it just strikes me as strange that the XP gain is so much all over the map with Kingmaker. Module 3 and 4 need additional random encounters to make even a four PC party gain the supposed level they should have at the end of the module. Module one has exactly enough XP for a four PC party, module two has enough XP for a five PC party to get to the desired level.
Are you including XP for quests (all of them), exploration, and kingdom building?
I moved to "level when I say" a while ago, so I haven't crunched numbers--too busy filling my game with personal quests and plotlines, but I would think that, if one were to include all the ways to gain XP beyond killing things, that it would fall pretty close to the mark (expecting there to be some amount of random encounters).
If you just add up XP from all the CRs included, I doubt it will amount to the right level.
Quests and Kingdom building included, yep. Exploration is not contributing much, when we are talking about 280.000 XP to get four PC's from level 7 to 10, or 1.040.000 from 10 to 13.
Quick skim of errors post:
Armag, p55: Armag's attacks are wrong in a weird way. The numbers give attacks of 14 bab, 6 str, 3 magic weapon, 2 focus, 1 training, 1 aid, for a total +27/+22/+17. The damage computes to 9 str, 3 magic weapon, 2 specialisation, 1 training for a total +15. He then Power Attacks, which *should* be -4 to hit for +12 damage, giving +23/18/13 (2d6+27). However, he seems to Power Attack for -3, gaining only +6 damage...? Whatever happens there, something is obviously off. Armag's attacks with Power Attack should be as I listed above. Someone shout up if they spot something I missed that explains this.
Oh, and Armag suffers from Barbarian CMD failure as well, it should be 2 lower.
All I got right now.
I checked it over and over again...
I'm getting +24 for dmg.
I don't know where you got +12 from power att (with -3 att, it's +6 dmg, plus another 50% for two-handed weapons, which is +9)houserule: power attack should give same in bonus as in deduction, with no double count of str. 50% for two-handed weapons!
He has 14 BAB, thus -4/+12.
@Ninjaiguana
AFAIK barbarians don't get lower CMD for raging. The bonus to strength makes up for the loss of AC to CMD.
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@Ninjaiguana
AFAIK barbarians don't get lower CMD for raging. The bonus to strength makes up for the loss of AC to CMD.
Yes, but my point is that he hasn't taken the -2 to CMD for his raging AC penalty, but has had the +2 to CMD for his increased strength. A barbarian's raging CMD should be identical to their normal CMD until they get greater rage. Armag's raging CMD is 2 higher than his standard CMD, and that is incorrect. Sorry for not making that clear in my original post.
A discussion just came up with one of my players.
Why doesn't Fort Drelev have any farms? (I know it says they have farmers, but no specified farm hex) Do they buy all their food from Pitax and/or Brevoy?
It just got a farm in the same hex IMC.
Why doesn't Fort Drelev have any farms? (I know it says they have farmers, but no specified farm hex) Do they buy all their food from Pitax and/or Brevoy?
Some spoilered feedback for you:
As I was writing Blood for Blood, the Paizo developers hadn't yet settled on their kingdom building rules. So, for me, the implication was that there were farms just off the edges of the Fort Drelev map (i.e., in the same hex). The map of the town itself is meant more as a tactical map for the eventual PC-invasion...and, to give you a sense of how it looks, geographically-speaking. If you want to drop in actual farm hexes and such, that's really a decision you get to make for your campaign. And it appears you've done exactly that.
Also, in terms of food, you can expect a couple of things with regards to Fort Drelev. As you noted, with easy access to the river, they can trade for much of their food. And, fishing would be a prime element of their diet, as well. Farms, on the other hand, would be mostly outlying and/or small family-sized gardens among the homesteaders. Keep in mind, Fort Drelev is not a well-functioning "kingdom" or "duchy" at the time the PCs move into it. Baron Drelev has pretty much run it into the ground, as he's not particularly well-suited as a frontiersman and a trailblazer. He and his wife are more accustomed to towns and cities that have already established themselves and neither of them are especially well-suited to building a kingdom from the ground up.
That realization should come pretty early to PCs who are meticulously planning out their kingdoms. With each new hex they "acquire" they'll inherit both the benefits and the headaches that come along with it. The Drelev Demesne is foundering. And, in true heroic fashion, the PCs get to be the ones to "save" it, primarily from the poor planning and resource management of the Baron and his wife...in addition to the depredations of the Tiger Lord barbarians and Irovetti's political machinations. It's a complicated and somewhat tangled web with both martial and social implications. And, by design, that setup was completely intentional on my part. I wanted to make sure that this region of the Stolen Lands had as much character to it as Varnhold, the Greenbelt, etc...almost like it's own miniature campaign setting within the River Kingdoms, because that's what it should be for your players.
My two cents,
--Neil
Why doesn't Fort Drelev have any farms? (I know it says they have farmers, but no specified farm hex) Do they buy all their food from Pitax and/or Brevoy?Some spoilered feedback for you:
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for the in-depth explanation. One question though, for about how long time has Drelev ruled the Fort? (disregarding the amount of time the group has spent on kingdom building)
My players just took out Fort Drelev this Sunday, in a clever airdrop during the night. So they managed to get by without any fighting outside the fort (except for a fight against Stroon on the roof while they were trying to get inside), so the liberation points tallied up rather quickly. With some reduction as they put the top floors on fire. :)
End result:
Drelev was feebleminded and magic jarred, but it was explained to the others that he got charmed and had a memory loss, which in turn created a few interesting conversations when he/the party wizard tried to "remember" what had happened and what happened with Pitax and the barbarians.
Stroon got hit by a disintegrate and won't be seen anytime soon, but he did give them a hard time on the roof.
The baroness and "lady" Maray survived, though Maray figured out that Drelev is not himself and is now trying to get closer to the ruling PCs.
They've been enjoying it so far. Next session will be the rescue of the kidnapped women, though I'm curious of whether they'll try to enter the tomb or not.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation. One question though, for about how long time has Drelev ruled the Fort?
We really tried not to assume any particular passage of time between adventures. Your campaign should move at the speed you set...not an arbitrary number of months or years defined by us. So, Drelev will have ruled the fort for as long as you decide. Obviously, it should be roughly the same amount of time the PCs have ruled their "kingdom"...since all four colonizing groups set out from Brevoy at the same time.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation. One question though, for about how long time has Drelev ruled the Fort?We really tried not to assume any particular passage of time between adventures. Your campaign should move at the speed you set...not an arbitrary number of months or years defined by us. So, Drelev will have ruled the fort for as long as you decide. Obviously, it should be roughly the same amount of time the PCs have ruled their "kingdom"...since all four colonizing groups set out from Brevoy at the same time.
Ah yeah, I keep forgetting about the other groups..
Thanks for the prompt reply. :)
Howdy,
I think I missed it somewhere, how many hexes does drelev control?
Thanks
Clam
Just the one.
You can assume Drelev is a political moron. He has effectively run his Barony into the ground. He is also fearfully allied with KI.
Assume KI is supporting the Drelev Barony so he can use it to easily keep tabs on the PCs kingdom.
OK, guess I didn't miss it then. Thanks born.
So my players ended up fighting all the guards a Drelev in one night. The tried to sneak in and got caught by the giants which made enough noise to bring the guards in 1D6 rounds. I rolled a 6 and a dozen guards showed up as the last giant fell. I rolled another D6 for more guards to come and again rolled a 6. In all they defeated 36 guards and 12 hill giant which used up about 60% of the parties resources. I did penalize the players for burning a couple buildings with use of fireballs. I ruled the building damaged though.
So how did this go for others? The guards seemed easy to defeat, the giants a were more trouble some.
So I've said Baron Drelev has now gone to siege mentality and locked himself up in the castle. I've also had a few runner that the PC don't know about go for reinforcements and the player may find themselves in a fight with some barbarian hoards before they get out Drelev.
My group is not there yet. But I am wondering, why Drelev stays in his castle? After witnessing/being told how a group of 4 (?) slaughtered his household guards - with ease.
As far as I picture Drelev he would opt for a tactical repositioning (Pitax probably) and bring with him his wife, her brother and his mistress. Let the group encounter him in full at King I's castle. *shrug*
Ruyan.
I skipped book 3 and went into book 4 at level 7. So far they are stomping it. The Naga failed a will save vs blindness (needed a 3) and then got hammered. Otherwise, I suspect it could have been a TPK (though I gave her motivation for not killing the party). The boggards they made a mockery of and probably could have run through the dungeon again with their resources, despite them making tactical errors, splitting the party, causing a chaining the major fights into one.
And then there is the keep.
I had them infiltrate the birthday party mentioned. Unarmored and with limitted gear, they took out the Baron, as well as multiple party guests that were arround their level (6-9) and the guards, saving the prisoner in the process and escaping out the back door. They were level 8 at the time.
I thought that by skipping a book I wouldn't have to beef stuff up so much, but its looking like that just isn't the case.
I'm running into an experience shortage as well (one of my players is 13th level, the others are all 12th level, after doing the first three modules and a fair amount of extra adventuring). Kingmaker does depend on the players doing most/all of the sidequests and getting XP from kingdom building also to get to the "right" levels. On the other hand, they're also well-built and powerful and I don't see any trouble running them into Book 5. I'm not sure about Book 6; we'll see what they look like as they end book 5.)
Going into this my players are 10/10/10/8 & 8th lvl cohort. So far they have not had many chanllenges in the first 3 modules. they has a little trouble fighting Vordaki at lvl.9 and has a challend against the mites and bandit camp at level 1. They wiped clean the Stag fort by sneakingin and attacking them in piece meal.
Sooo..., I'm going to beef this module up, I am going to make it simple on myself by just using the 6 party experience expansion throughout this module and reduce the bonus quest XP in this module & AP5 to balance the XP in the long run.
I'm also going to drop tha mass combat rules for the battle of Tazlyford and just play it out using standard PF combat rules. I will have he 15 4th lvl Barbarians, the 25 4th lvl Ftrs, and the Trolls all attack the city from a different direction with the intent to destroy as many buildings as possible. I think this will tax the partys resources since they will have to decide where to be and how to fend off 3 attacks at once.
My players entered the tomb our last session fought the daemon (2 actually). It was a nasty nasty fight. Thank the nine divine the sorcerer knew teleport and was close enough to the 3 unconscious members to get them out. But even then, they only survived because I ruled that feeblemind could only affect a character once per 24 hour period. I did this for 2 reasons 1) Every other ability in this style seems to have this drawback and 2) Holy cow would it be ridiculous if you had to save every round or become a waste of space, especially since spell casters get a -4 on their saves.
Was this the RAI? Also should I make Armag stronger since the PCs were forced to flee giving him time to grow more Armag like?
Armag's Tomb gave my PCs a case of the yellow-bellies. My crew, through multiple characters, have never backed away from a single fight. But as soon as they encountered the first hall of heavy fog, and first minor confusion effect and webbed stair case, they started talking about leaving. Then the fighter charges the iron golem with the golem bane scarab and misses. The golem lands to crits, the cleric does nothing, the fighter runs away, and the rest of the group follwed. Was a pretty sad sight to see. Lost a lot of respect for my group.
I was wondering, in regards to the Skeletal Champions, is the CR correct? I just think a 6th level fighter, undead skeleton, with fast healing seems more powerful than a mere CR 5.
That said, I can't get my mind around how the skeletal champion works in the Bestiary, so maybe it is okay but Im too dense to figure out how to calculate the CR.
Something which has been bothering me is that Iorvetti gets namedropped several times in this book. The players will know the King of Pitax aided the Tiger Lord Barbarians, and subsequently lead to the attack on their homeland.
Of course, he was not directly involved in the attack, that being Baron Drelev acting out of his own self interest. But taking the fact that he helped to more or less annex their neighbour and his reputation as the Bandit King of Pitax, how will he ever convince them to travel to his castle in the next module?
I haven't read War of the River Kings yet, so I don't know if a viable explanation is given - because I know my players, and they'll be paranoid if they think he's after their lands.
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I'm starting B4B Saturday, and I'm using the slow track XP, so you can imagine it's taking forver to get XP. But then again, I keep adding stuff like Hook Mountain Massacree and other stuff. They are just into level 9 @ saturday's start. I'm having one of the players ready Ruby Phoenix Tournament to place between B4B and WRK. I agree though that squashing low CR Boggards (and while we're at it, WHAT is Paizo's obessesion with this particular kuo-toan wanna-be monster?)will get old. So of course I'm adding a Mogobo into the boggard lair! :). In fact, I usually add CR's above our PC's by +4-5 for good solo punch-ups...'what killed the adult black dragon that was trapesing around the swamp eating hunters? a Froghemouth of course!' Also gonna thow in a Catoblepas and some Witchfires as well (love hags, even dead ones)
Methinks there are so many oppertunities to add stuff (I added the pleasure barge from Hook Mtn series into this, but made it a boat run by annis and night hags (and a Abyssal Hag from Tome)with zombie slaves, covered by a glamer, so it was really a boat of corpses). The party got back to Staghome, and found half the PC backup characters missing, along with some key workers..."They left on that funny riverboat with all them beyutuful wumanz".
Have some fun and strech your legs...I even had fun using the undead archer from the new book (Baykok I think)...how ahd it in for Fey...he was the risen corpse of the hutner killed by Tig and the fairy dragon (complete with rusty trap hanging from leg)...they kept hearing the twang of the bow and another pixie'd end up spitted...the fun you can have....
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...But taking the fact that he helped to more or less annex their neighbour and his reputation as the Bandit King of Pitax, how will he ever convince them to travel to his castle in the next module?
I haven't read War of the River Kings yet, so I don't know if a viable explanation is given - because I know my players, and they'll be paranoid if they think he's after their lands.
Aye that's what I'm thinking. MY players are wll-versed in River King lore (Damn the wiki sites). My guys are as likey to buff up and teleport into his bath as to attend some tournament.
Aye that's what I'm thinking. MY players are wll-versed in River King lore (Damn the wiki sites). My guys are as likey to buff up and teleport into his bath as to attend some tournament....But taking the fact that he helped to more or less annex their neighbour and his reputation as the Bandit King of Pitax, how will he ever convince them to travel to his castle in the next module?
I haven't read War of the River Kings yet, so I don't know if a viable explanation is given - because I know my players, and they'll be paranoid if they think he's after their lands.
My players were suspicious of him and built a gargantuan Militia and kept in Ft. Drevlev. I had to move the invite to the Rushlight tournament up so the players to hold out from Immediately going after Pitax. The invite if very warm and has friendly overtones. Once the players knew the winner of the Rushlight tournament would receive a Rod of Lordly Might and out of game I dropped that each event winner was rewarded as a quest they decided to hold out and participate in the Rushlight tournament and use it as a opportunity to spy on Pitax.
Maybe it the playes want to go after them immediatly have the spymaster drop that the Rushlight tournament would be a great opty. to Spy on Pitax.
The Map Folio map says its the Siltstrand River.
XP shortage in this AP is the best news I've heard all day. I've been straining to figure out how I could possibly run a true sandbox AP where anything can happen without any XP wiggle room at all. Knowing that Paizo included some of that wiggle room just makes me one happy GM!
We'll be starting Kingmaker sometime in June I'm guessing, after our SS campaign has come to a conclusion. =)
My players beelined through the Slough, to Fort Drelev and then straight to Armags camp, they're currently level 11(I have mostly myself to blame for this, as I'm an expert at making them feel the situation is dire). Though a well optimized party, I think they'll have a tough time in the dungeon.
I'm wondering whether or not one should allow resting in the dungeon, or if it's simply too dangerous a place for that. They could be beset by wandering skeletons every odd hour or so, or worst case scenario - Zorbrek and Armag comes out to fight them. I also think the dungeon should be teleport and scry-proof, so they can't just teleport out to gather supplies and rest(sort of ruins the entire mood of delving into a dangerous, ancient burial tomb)
So they've already spent some of their power rescuing the hostages, and are diving into the dungeon the next session. I'm curious whether they can handle it, but I suspect their powers will be next to spent when they come to meet Armag, and he's not an easy beast(especially not using the updated rules for 6 players)
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Something which has been bothering me is that Iorvetti gets namedropped several times in this book. The players will know the King of Pitax aided the Tiger Lord Barbarians, and subsequently lead to the attack on their homeland....Of course, he was not directly involved in the attack, that being Baron Drelev acting out of his own self interest. But taking the fact that he helped to more or less annex their neighbour and his reputation as the Bandit King of Pitax, how will he ever convince them to travel to his castle in the next module?
My recommendation is...
You've also got the option of playing it up as an espionage thing with the Rushlight festival and Irovetti's invitation if your PCs do manage to divine his involvement in Drelev's downfall. All of the other "kings" of the River Kingdoms will be attending the event. So, it'll seem quite out of place if the PCs don't show up...and a political gaffe, as well, since the other rulers won't view them as a legitimate River Kingdom otherwise. The advisors to your PC king should certainly bend his ear with that kind of information before War of the River Kings kicks off.
My two cents,
--Neil
A mechanics question here regarding the guards and wards spell in Armag's tomb: Duration: 2 hours/level...Area of Effect: 200 square feet/level...Zorek: CL = 12, Can do guards and wards 1/day.
Advice:
In general, plan on having areas D1 thru D10 as the primary places affected by guards and wards. At CL 12, Zorek is able to cover an entire day with a single casting of the spell. The 200 square feet/level is essentially 96 5-ft. squares. Since guards and wards has a shapeable (S) area of effect, and Zorek gets that ability as a divine guardian, I think it's fair to imagine the spell split up into areas of effect that aren't contiguous. In other words, have it affect a few squares on the stairs for the web effect. A couple of 5-ft. squares for the doors that are held with arcane lock. Fill just the handful of squares at each intersection with the confusion effect. Same deal for the gust of wind in area D7. And only put patches of obscuring mist in certain hallways where it makes sense. For the actual rooms, leave their squares out of the guards and wards effect. You should have enough area of effect to cover what you need quite easily. And, as the divine guardian of the tomb, Zorek essentially gets to establish how the guards and wards spell works in relation to the areas he's using to test the mettle of heroes who visit there anyway.
My players beelined through the Slough, to Fort Drelev and then straight to Armags camp, they're currently level 11(I have mostly myself to blame for this, as I'm an expert at making them feel the situation is dire). Though a well optimized party, I think they'll have a tough time in the dungeon.
Sounds like it could prove to be a pretty epic, daunting task.
I'm wondering whether or not one should allow resting in the dungeon, or if it's simply too dangerous a place for that. They could be beset by wandering skeletons every odd hour or so, or worst case scenario - Zorbrek and Armag comes out to fight them. I also think the dungeon should be teleport and scry-proof, so they can't just teleport out to gather supplies and rest(sort of ruins the entire mood of delving into a dangerous, ancient burial tomb).
Resting in the tomb is debatable.
So they've already spent some of their power rescuing the hostages, and are diving into the dungeon the next session. I'm curious whether they can handle it, but I suspect their powers will be next to spent when they come to meet Armag, and he's not an easy beast(especially not using the updated rules for 6 players)
That's certainly going to be a concern, but...
...consider giving your PCs some help in the form of Zorek. If he believes he's made a mistake and Armag isn't the chosen one for Ovinrbaane, he could heal the PCs up and have them square off against the barbarian warlord to determine who's worthy of the blade. Of course, Armag will already have the sword. But, if the PCs can take it from him, that'll further prove their claim over Armag's. Either way, Zorek will have fulfilled his duty to Gorum and he can pass on.
Just my two cents,
--Neil
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Something which has been bothering me is that Iorvetti gets namedropped several times in this book. The players will know the King of Pitax aided the Tiger Lord Barbarians, and subsequently lead to the attack on their homeland....Of course, he was not directly involved in the attack, that being Baron Drelev acting out of his own self interest. But taking the fact that he helped to more or less annex their neighbour and his reputation as the Bandit King of Pitax, how will he ever convince them to travel to his castle in the next module?My recommendation is...
** spoiler omitted **
My two cents,
--Neil
Thanks for chiming in Neil. I will definitely keep your suggestions in mind.
I have a question concerning destroying Ovinrbaane.I'll have to defer to Jacobs on that one. I believe he came up with the method for destroying Ovinrbaane.
I haven't gotten to the reply to this question but the way I interpreted it was...
To have a headstone in the Boneyard you must be dead, so you must both be dead and able to take Ovinrbane to the Boneyard, and their smash it against your headstone.
I'll have to keep reading to see what the author's reply was!!
My PCs have started attacking the Fort.
Has anyone had this happen? Any thoughts on what might happen?
Splitting the party is always a bad idea... I would guess they got killed (at least a few of them^^)
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My PCs have started attacking the Fort.
** spoiler omitted **
Has anyone had this happen? Any thoughts on what might happen?
Looks quite doable. My party split up a lot during this section, and played a really great infiltration right up until everything fell apart.
Just be loose, be willing to say yes, know the material and allow the PCs to fall back if need be.
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The keep isn't really that powerful, imo. It's more the challenge of pulling off a coup. It's one thing when your leader seems oppressive, but it's quite another when assassins come in and kill your baron. However, if the enemy catches on, and if Imeckus gets involved, a split party could take a big hit.
Has anyone had your PC's lose the battle at Tatzlford?....Any creative suggestions for this scenario?
You can play up the danger represented by Drelev's new alliance with the Tiger Lord barbarians and Nyrissa's monstrous minions (like the trolls, fey, etc.). Clearly, there should be some ramifications on the PCs' reputation and approval as leaders of the kingdom if their ineptitude allowed a border town like Tatzlford to fall. Maybe further threats could begin to eat away at the edges of their territory...too many and too widespread for them to address all at once. Then, the adventure could turn towards them finding the instigator of all their troubles and a direct conflict with the Drelev Demesne.
Bottom line, even a defeat at Tatzlford can serve as the catalyst for how and why the PCs would turn their attention toward the latter parts of the adventure in "Blood for Blood." The trick is going to be in how you present those opportunities and stir up their interest in fighting back. Basically, all the headaches that the rulers/leaders of a young kingdom should face.
Best of luck,
--Neil
How is "Ovinrbaane" supposed to be pronounced?
At game time, I said it as "Oh-vin-er-bane" which brought on hysterical laughing from my players. "Oh, is it a sword that is a bane to anyone with a weiner?"
I suggest other GMs change the swords name to avoid my fate. Something like "Frank" or "Joe".