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The thing that interests me about all of this is that it shows Paizo's habit of writing darker, more adult themed adventures might be a very shrewd business move. It's quite possible that younger players will see Pathfinder as something to graduate to.I don't think that's true. Conan d20 which is far darker, far more adult themed, and, frankly, just as a good a game system, has all but died.
Conan d20, however, was not the spiritual heir to 3.5. Pathfinder was.
I think, when WotC turned their backs on their old fans in order to pursue a younger audience, those old fans mostly went to Pathfinder.
Yes but Conan is going to attract people because it is Conan. I doubt your typical DnD fan would pick up a Conan book unless they was interested in Conan, as that is that products main selling point. I liked Mongooses Conan for the record. But I bought the stuff not as a replacement or supplements for my DnD game but to play Conan, which just happened to also be D20.
Though I do hope this thread can avoid taking shots at other systems. It was a interesting read but there is no need for taking a shot at a system weather it be 3e or 4e. This last is not directed at Lilithsthrall just adding it cause some of the posts have been getting a bit towards edition war type comments being made.
The thing that interests me about all of this is that it shows Paizo's habit of writing darker, more adult themed adventures might be a very shrewd business move. It's quite possible that younger players will see Pathfinder as something to graduate to.I don't think that's true. Conan d20 which is far darker, far more adult themed, and, frankly, just as a good a game system, has all but died.
Conan d20, however, was not the spiritual heir to 3.5. Pathfinder was.
I think, when WotC turned their backs on their old fans in order to pursue a younger audience, those old fans mostly went to Pathfinder.
While people make a big deal about how Paizo is leading the OGL revolution, they often forget the reason why they were in that position was because during the OGL official run, they were producing official D&D content. No doubt the quality of their work didn't hurt, but many people who didn't give 3PP a sideways glance picked up Paizo's magazines because of the "official D&D" stamp. This put them in the perfect position with those groups as well as pulling in some of the 3PP supporters. An advantage a company that was an outsider during the whole time, just never had.
This doesn't mean that Paizo doesn't deserve the credit, luck favors the prepared. I just don't think it is a fair comparison to look at PF and Conan.
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Locally, Pathfinder has taken off at our FLGS in a major way! We host Pathfinder Society scenarios every weekend (most times two or three every saturday) with a scenario offered every other Wednesday as well. The shelves at the FLGS has plenty of 4E stocked, but it seems to just sit there; conversely, Pathfinder product is re-ordered every week for restock.
At our local convention last year, LFR had a small following, while the PFS tables were full. And this year, no LFR events are scheduled due to a lack of interest.
About the only negative thing ever heard about pathfinder product at our FLGS is how release dates that always seem to changed (and delayed).
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I have to agree that Conan is a niche market. I picked up a copy of each version of the core book over the years and have been meaning to pick up the latest monster manual. Namely I bought it because I'm a fan of Conan and not to play. Most of my non D&D and Pathfinder purchases are purely fanboy or plain interest. I preordered Dragon Age RPG by Green Ronin, which ships this week, for that reason and am planning on picking up a few other games this year for that reason. I love L5R, but never get the chance to play it and will get 4e in May. Dresden Files RPG hits in June. I stopped playing 4e as I mentioned, but still plan on picking up the annuals for the core three and most likely will pick up Darksun or at least give it a good long look. I've even got into the retro movement downloading anything and everything I can find.
Regardless of all that I have to agree that it's great to hear that Pathfinder is doing well, but as mentioned we really need to make a point of promoting the game. I think Pathfinder took off for us because four others and I chose to be involved and made a point of keeping everyone informed. That continued interest is what got everyone's attention. One thing I would love to see (and since Erik is following this thread I'll mention it) is a Pathfinder Fan kit or something along those lines. It could even cross promote PFS. You know like a little box with a couple of buttons similar to what they passed out at GenCon, a bumper sticker or two, a copy of the poster, an awesome ball cap, and an over the top WAR designed T-shirt. Maybe a keychain designed like a wayfinder just for extra measure. Another aspect that would be nice to see would be if Paizo would start up a Bounty Hunter program like AEG or other companies, meaning demo teams. Basically die hard fans willing to promote the game throughout their region for no pay and the chance to get some gaming swag every now and then. PFS is a great thing for us and a good tool for Paizo, but Bounty Hunters can tackle the job of reaching the areas that don't have anything established and can shoulder the organization of stuff without the stores worrying about investing in an unknown product. It’s also been my experience that store owners tend to be a little more responsive when they have a person they can talk with that knows the product and is coming to them on the level of their customer. Course nothing is stopping us from doing that now other than we wouldn’t be sanctioned by Paizo.
All of this makes me glad I kept my extensive library of 3.0/3.5 material and the best fact of all is that its all backwards compatible to Pathfinder with very little effort. Nice to know the books are worth more than they ever were, checking my collection against other books on 'ebay' I can see it was a wise move.
My collection... (glad to say I kept all of it...lol)
- Monster Manuals I, II, III, IV and V
- Fiend Codex I ; Hordes Of The Abyss
- Fiend Codex II ; Tyrants Of The Nine Hells
- Fiend Folio
- Magic Item Compendium
- Spell Compendium
- Dragon Compendium Vol.1
- Drow Of The Underdark
- Dungeonscape
- Book Of Exalted Deeds
- Book Of Vile Darkness
- Rules Compendium
- Draconomicon
- Libra Mortis
- Dungeon Masters Guide
- Players Handbook
- Players Handbook II
- Unearthed Arcana
- Exemplars Of Evil
- Shackled City Adventure Path/Campaign Book
...as well as my extensive Pathfinder 3.5 material.
...and many others, official and 3rd party, all infinately useful, nice to know all these can still be used and I dont have to shell out a huge sum of money buying all the 4th Ed stuff which as many have said seems to be aimed primarily at a younger gamer (WoTC saw how popular World Of Warcraft was and wanted a piece of that action and made sure to make a game that appeals to their fast and hard hitting style of gaming).
I tried 4th Ed., and having started my D&D adventure from the later days of 2nd Ed. before 3.0 came out and worked my way on from there, I am glad to say I support Pathfinder and Paizo fully - after all the system works, and Paizo are doing their best to work out the minor kinks in the system (plus the fact they Playtest their stuff helps keep it all in top shape and irons out any glitches).
Long live Pathfinder and Paizo for supporting us gamers.
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And this just in from the enWorld trenches, drawing some joking speculation that will make you wonder at the truth of what we're discussing in this thread. The point of interest is that WotC is releasing a rules compendium for 4e already. Jokingly pointed out is that this signals the pending arrival of 5e. It might be a joke, but it makes you wonder since for 3.x as far as books went the Rules Compendium was the final say on just about everything WotC had received complaints about. Granted if there isn't an announcement at GenCon then it still means that there are so many rules out there that WotC realized they need to be consolidated already.
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And this just in from the enWorld trenches, drawing some joking speculation that will make you wonder at the truth of what we're discussing in this thread. The point of interest is that WotC is releasing a rules compendium for 4e already. Jokingly pointed out is that this signals the pending arrival of 5e. It might be a joke, but it makes you wonder since for 3.x as far as books went the Rules Compendium was the final say on just about everything WotC had received complaints about. Granted if there isn't an announcement at GenCon then it still means that there are so many rules out there that WotC realized they need to be consolidated already.
If, as many have said, a large number of 4ed players get everything they need from DDI, this has an interesting effect on the ability of WotC to version the system. They can do so without requiring those players to pick up new books. However, the cash bump that they see by doing so might be smaller, so they don't have as much incentive.
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And this just in from the enWorld trenches, drawing some joking speculation that will make you wonder at the truth of what we're discussing in this thread. The point of interest is that WotC is releasing a rules compendium for 4e already. Jokingly pointed out is that this signals the pending arrival of 5e. It might be a joke, but it makes you wonder since for 3.x as far as books went the Rules Compendium was the final say on just about everything WotC had received complaints about. Granted if there isn't an announcement at GenCon then it still means that there are so many rules out there that WotC realized they need to be consolidated already.
Hmmm... interesting. I don't think this actually implies anything about sales or 4.5/5E; likely WoTC aimed for DDI to be their main source of income from D&D, and it now allows them to release different versions of rulebooks. Or, that might be their version of printed errata -- especially as people have complained that including errata in the next set of books (for example, the rewritten Stealth rules in PHB 2) is "robbery"? Hard to say without more information about the content of DM's Kit, Player's Essentials and Rule Compendium, but I assume these are aimed for inexperienced players and DMs, i.e. an expanded "4E-lite".
In my area (Silkeborg, Denmark...the land of Muhammed Cartoons) there's one gaming society (Avalon) and an FLGS (Asgaard Games - that hosts gaming nexts three times a week).
In Avalon, currently there are three gaming groups...one 3.5, one PF and one GURPS 4.0.
In Asgaard, there's as far as I know, but I only go once a week, a group of D&D 4.0 running.
If this is a general theme for the trend in the area, both games (PF and 4.0) are doing well. The gaming store has a few copies of both PF Core + Monster and 4.0 core books, but they mostly order in for people, as they don't want too many books sitting on the shelves.
I too, as previously said by others, hope that 4.0 will do well in attracting a younger crowd, because seriously...the average age in my personal gaming group is now above 30...and while we may have more money to spend, we also have more things to spend them on. I might even consider buying and playing 4.0 (I've tried one session as a dwarf fighter and it wasn't as bad as I'd heard - but PF is still "my" game).
From what I've seen at the store here while working there, 4e has a much bigger shelf space than Pathfinder does. However, the 4e stuff doesn't move. Pathfinder gets sold fast enough I don't get a chance to chat up the people who buy it (darn it). One of the appealing things I've found with the Core Rulebook for potential Pathfinder players is that it's the PHB & DMG in one - $50 as opposed to $60. Ten dollars doesn't seem like a lot, but every bit counts.
Oh, and for those looking to fill in some holes for their 3e collection, we've got not-too-bad selection for the area, including a couple of Conan d20 boxed sets.
This is the best article I've found on Amazon's sales rank algorithm.
I knew it! Graphs suspiciously shaped like blood stains...yes! I knew there was voodoo involved!
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I would love it if Pathfinder surpassed D&D. But also, I'd love for the entire industry as a whole to see a boost in sales. Whether it be for a system I really like and play (Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, a few others) or for systems that don't really do anything for me or that I don't play (4th Edition, White Wolf products, tons of others). I think once someone takes the plunge and begins playing any RPG, they are much more likely to try another. So WOW-inspired or not, 4th Edition may actually lead some people to Pathfinder.
Pathfinder itself seems to be encouraging people to try Call of Cthulhu products...I've yet to see a module or supplement that has something decidedly Lovecraftian that doesn't give Chaosium a mention, which I think is very cool of Paizo. Back in the day, TSR dropped the Mythos and another pantheon from it's Dieties and Demigods book just to avoid the mandatory referencing of a competitor.
stuff
[threadjack]I'm from MI!!! Where are you at?[/threadjack]
In my area (Taipei, Taiwan), among the gamers I know, I'm the only one who has Pathfinder books, as well as Paizo APs and modules. Most of the local gaming groups went to 4E,some stayed with 3.5, a few of them just quit playing like my old gaming groug.
Last year I asked our FLGS if they could get some PF books, they refused, thought that wouldn't sell. Last month I had a chance to talk to the employee there, he said they were considering order some PF books,because they kept hearing good things about it. Right now the 3.5 books and 4E books on the shelves are about 50/50, according to him the 4E books sold out quickly while 3.5 books only sold one or two books per month.
So that's what I've heard. I hope to run at least one PF game in Febuary,start with Carrion Hill and then perhaps Legacy of Fire.
In Greece, there are two distributors of RPG products. They don't bring PF products because they don't expect demand. The 4e is not selling. Getting some figures from many shops in Athens, I am positive about it. If PF products were available in these stores I believe they would be sold at least equally well as the 4e. It seems that there is a demand for Warhammer 40000 RPG also. Being involved in the Greek RPG forum I say that there are several customers of PF, buying their books from Amazon, from comics stores that could bring PF from their distributor in England (I am using this way) or directly from PAIZO.
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Sebastian said it already - it's worth repeating: 4e's success isn't tied to the books but to DDI subscriptions.
Apart from that, some anecdotal "evidence" from Germany:
- 4E books are cheaply available, prices on 3.5 books are prohibitive. Which isn't a benchmark for the respective system's "popularity" (though I wish it were :D) ) but about the respective ratios of demand and supply. Frankly, with 3.5 supply being so little the high prices don't mean much.
- Pathfinder: selling in translation. German publisher seems happy with the sales numbers, but D&D-related forum polls indicate that the overwhelming majority clings to 3.5 erstwhile. Also, a percentage of potential customers is on the hold out for (transl.) PF's second print run, as the errata for the first one are enormous.
On the whole I'm getting the vibe (in Germany) that there are far fewer people playing D&D (4E, 3.5, PF) nowadays than up to, say, five years ago. Forum activity, at least, has died down considerably, and the whole trend of exchanging campaign material has died down - as if fewer campaigns get played these days.
However, with 4E and 3.5 dead in Germany - from a publisher's POV (meaning: availability in translation) - Pathfinder is clearly on the rise. It's the only actively supported version of modern (post-2E) D&D around.
The owner of my local gaming store told me that he's seen a lot more interest in PF than in 4Ed.
I do understand that the marketing idea of 4Ed was to attempt to appeal to younger/video game raised players. I hope it works and brings more people into our hobby.
Meanwhile Pathfinder appeals more to me, someone who has been playing since the D&D red box basic set... I think I still have those dice. :-)
Locally, Pathfinder has taken off at our FLGS in a major way! We host Pathfinder Society scenarios every weekend (most times two or three every saturday) with a scenario offered every other Wednesday as well.
Oooh! What store? Have I sent them posters yet? If not, email me their name and contact information. josh@paizo.com
*a lot of nice stuff about promoting Pathfinder*
You're in luck! Erik and I have been planning and discussing similar initiatives. For the most part, we see growing the Society as the #1 way to introduce the game to new people. Once we have a volunteer/coordinator network in place, those folks will be responsible for getting the Society into as many conventions/stores/houses/game days/college gaming clubs as possible. Rather than cross the streams and have two demo teams basically demoing the same thing (one PRPG/one PFS) we'd rather see a single demo team tackling both at the same time.
We've had a series of meetings about this already and have another tomorrow. Rest-assured, this sort of thing is coming!
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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In Greece, there are two distributors of RPG products. They don't bring PF products because they don't expect demand. The 4e is not selling. Getting some figures from many shops in Athens, I am positive about it. If PF products were available in these stores I believe they would be sold at least equally well as the 4e. It seems that there is a demand for Warhammer 40000 RPG also. Being involved in the Greek RPG forum I say that there are several customers of PF, buying their books from Amazon, from comics stores that could bring PF from their distributor in England (I am using this way) or directly from PAIZO.
Can you provide the names of these distributors? I'd love to drop them a line.
--Erik
ACK!! I'm out of town for a workshop and the thread goes BOOM! ^_^
A) Where I am, as it was asked upstream: Ludington, MI, right along the coast of Lake Michigan. Shop is Backstage Hobbies & Games; I have a site, but its woefully out of date, I keep forgetting to use it. I am on facebook, however, and usually end up posting events to that. Look me up, I'm just "Nate Petersen" there as well ^_^
B) My supplier is Mad Al Distributors, out of Alaska. They primarily do candy I understand, but the guys have always been good to me and so I use them whenever humanly possible. Like I said, they recently started carrying the PF materials, just ordered a CRB and Bestiary for a local one day con this weekend and I'll be running a PF adventure set in my soon-to-be released campaign setting, so double demo for me ^_^
C) Regarding the Core PDF, I don't think it impacted me at all. Course, as I said its only been in the last month or so my supplier carried the books in the first place. That said, I bought the PDF along with my personal copy of the CRB and used that to show off the system, hooked my playgroup up with copies of their classes, etc. Doing that sold another three or four copies of the CRB and a couple copies of the Bestiary, and all of those I bought off Paizo & Troll and Toad, so *I* paid full retail price just to hook my players up with the books.
Locally, Pathfinder has taken off at our FLGS in a major way! We host Pathfinder Society scenarios every weekend (most times two or three every saturday) with a scenario offered every other Wednesday as well.Oooh! What store? Have I sent them posters yet? If not, email me their name and contact information. josh@paizo.com
Bookmarks this so I can hand the info to my two FLGSs.
The Gaming Store in Adelaide (South Australia) seems to sell out of Pathfinder as well. However, I'd be hesitant to draw any real conclusion, since they seem to order three or four pathfinder books and maybe a dozen or even twenty+ ( a guess) of each of the 4th edition books.
The fact they're prepared to let the 4th edition titles "gather dust" while still ordering in stacks of new releases seems to indicate to me that they expect to sell them eventually. The large stock of 3.5 books are still sitting there and dont seem to be moving that quickly (though they havent dropped the price at all) - maybe the pathfinder converts will start picking them up over time.
I personally would know as the closest mall (Fashion Square Mall, AZ) has gone through a lot of changes and lost all of it's middle class stores (including the 2 Music/DVD stores, the Disney store, an Game Daze among others). Due to this I'm only left with Amazon.com as my supplier of game materials.
When my Game Daze was in business I was such a frequent customer and dropped a lot of money in there that they gave me 30% of sales three years before they closed their doors and also they went out of their way to get me stuff from ebay, being that I'm unable to use it.
Josh, I'll have to get my local Gaming store to send you an email about volunteering, they're all hardcore Pathfinder fans there. In fact the 4E section has shrunk significantly, with Pathfinder taking up more space than any other game system there. If you ever so much as look at a pathfinder or 4E book, one of the workers will come over and start talking about how much better pathfinder is than 4E. So I'm sure they'd love to jump on board with this, and I imagine I know a good ten or fifteen people in my groups that would love to see it happen too.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I personally would know as the closest mall (Fashion Square Mall, AZ) has gone through a lot of changes and lost all of it's middle class stores (including the 2 Music/DVD stores, the Disney store, an Game Daze among others). Due to this I'm only left with Amazon.com as my supplier of game materials.
Have you heard of paizo.com? I hear they have some gaming stuff for sale...
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For the most part, we see growing the Society as the #1 way to introduce the game to new people.
This is the point I wanted to make in this thread. I play in Massachusetts and so far it has been a small, but growing group of players for PFS game days.
When we get a chance to play at a LGS it is mostly with the hope of attracting new players. Just last week a passer-by stopped and watch our game for over an hour (hopefully a new player to add to our local PFS games).
The group I play in is also running PFS games at TotalCon in February. We view local conventions as our chance to bring in new players. The PFS is very important to attracting new players.
I see something interesting in my own local store every week. Most of the 3E/Pathfinder games have one Dungeon Master and anywhere from 8-12 players that have to be rotated. However, there are more 4E games per week with a more even distribution of DMs and players. 4E also seems to draw much younger players and more female players.
My girlfriend enjoys 4E much more than 3E, but I may be providing a little bias there as I've played all editions of D&D and Pathfinder and still prefer 4E to all the rest. I tend to sing its praises more often than not. ;)
There seem to be a lot more players in my area playing 4E from home and running their own adventures or better mods. Most of the public players have drifted away because of the perceived lack of quality in the LFR mods. If I were to judge 4E based solely on people in the store playing LFR than I would say it's a failure, as most of those people have burnt out on the lack of challenging fights and interesting stories. 3 fights, 1 skill challenge only stays interesting for so long. :)
Have you heard of paizo.com? I hear they have some gaming stuff for sale...
Unfortunately, nothing I'm interested in at the moment.
Also, getting free shipping at Amazon with orders over $25 helps to make my money go further.
You can expect to become an RPG suscriber just before the GameMastery Guide comes out.
In fact the 4E section has shrunk significantly, with Pathfinder taking up more space than any other game system there. If you ever so much as look at a pathfinder or 4E book, one of the workers will come over and start talking about how much better pathfinder is than 4E.
And you say that the number of people purchasing 4e products at the store has decreased. How strange.
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I personally would know as the closest mall (Fashion Square Mall, AZ) has gone through a lot of changes and lost all of it's middle class stores (including the 2 Music/DVD stores, the Disney store, an Game Daze among others). Due to this I'm only left with Amazon.com as my supplier of game materials.Have you heard of paizo.com? I hear they have some gaming stuff for sale...
Really? I never heard of them. Are they a online game store or something? :)
In fact the 4E section has shrunk significantly, with Pathfinder taking up more space than any other game system there. If you ever so much as look at a pathfinder or 4E book, one of the workers will come over and start talking about how much better pathfinder is than 4E.And you say that the number of people purchasing 4e products at the store has decreased. How strange.
I had meant that the area they take up, not the books. The Pathfinder Section is usually depleted in products, but they stock a lot more of it because it sells out too fast. Whereas they've taken most of the 4E Stock they had out in the front and put it into storage to make room for more pathfinder stuff, we recently got most of the Pathfinder Chronicles, and flipmaps in.
What I really wish for is a market revolution where game designers and comic book store owners (again, the good ones anyway) can stay afloat.
Only two groups can do this: Players, and Owners.
First, Owners: We need to provide safe, clean, entertainment, and we do need to play all groups. Guess what my paint scheme is for my building. Lots of blue and white. Makes the place feel open, not oppressive, its bright. Makes "Mom" feel good letting Jimmy hang out, its not a creepy dungeon. Believe me, I've seen far too many places keep to the stereotype and I vowed not to do that. Second, we have to give our customers a reason to come in. Be it great service, knowledgeable help, great selection, games and events, whatever. We HAVE to be a destination. Small game stores get their ass kicked by WalMart because they open the doors and expect the world to beat a path to their door. While it is true that gamers will find you, you have to do a considerable amount of outreach to get that first batch to you. WalMart just throws product on the shelf and Mom buys it to shut Jimmy up while waiting in line. THAT'S how WalMart beats us. So, offer something WalMart can't; a comfortable environment that nurtures the hobby.Second, Players: This will sound harsh, and while as a player I can appreciate it as well, but *deep breath* stop whining about the cost. Seriously. You can get a book online for 60% of cover price because the place selling it buys it for 50%, throws it in a box in his/her basement, and ships it out when you buy it. No overhead, no service fees, no special incentives, no fun things to keep you entertained. I, on the other hand (and by extension all B&M owners) have overhead; rent, utilities, insurance, fixtures, taxes, incidental office fees, delivery fees for a pizza when we forget lunch at home and are starving at the end of a fifteen hour day. You literally get what you pay for. If you want a full service store with good help, knowledgeable owners, and people ready, willing, and able to engage in the coolest geekery moments you can only imagine, support them! It galls me to no end to have a customer who plays in my store walk in with a MtG box they bought online and crack it in front of my other customers and players. They paid $85 for that; I paid like $76 for mine on the shelf. My box has to help me meet rent; that one sat in someone's basement. If I don't sell that box on the shelf, there's no cool storefront to hang out at, no fun events like game days for whatever system you like, no Free RPG Day locations, etc.
In a nutshell, players just need to bite the bullet and determine what is more important to them; even more raw gaming accessories, or the ability to congregate with other gamers in a fun, safe, and welcoming environment. If you want a store to remain in your area, support them first. Buy whatever they can sell you. I do admit, I don't have everything. I don't begrudge someone coming online to order a book or playset of cards I don't have in stock and/or cannot get in stock. But if I do have it, it drives me nuts to have someone who knows I have it buy it online because its three dollars cheaper. Trust me, that sale means a lot to me, both in financial terms (I get to free up an investment AND hopefully make a little more) and in emotional terms (knowing I have a base that will support me and make the work worthwhile).
So...yea. Bit of a rant. But the revolution begins with us, the owners and the players. Good product is out there, so its less a matter of that being in place and more a matter of the infrastructure being in place. Plus, a well-rounded, well supported retail system allows gaming enthusiasts like myself to run these stores, share the love of the games, support the titles that are worthwhile, and introduce new generations to the hobby. And that allows the good product out there to flourish even more.
+1 to Nate. I wish there were more good gaming stores in my area. There's one but before Pathfinder came out he had no idea what it was. He has been non-responsive to me and seemed generally uninformed. I was disappointed. I go in there now and then to try to raid whatever selection of already painted lead minis he has (I'm to lazy to paint my own but hate the plastics). Really, I'd love to support the store but he doesn't seem to go out of his way to keep me coming back. I wish your store was in my area Nate, I'd practically live there.
I wish your store was in my area Nate, I'd practically live there.
Eh, Ludington's a tourist town. Stop by during the summer, camp for a weekend ^_^ I get a guy from Big Rapids, brings his family over to camp during the summer just so he's closer to the shop even for a long weekend, lol. I'm only about three hours away~
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Sebastian said it already - it's worth repeating: 4e's success isn't tied to the books but to DDI subscriptions.
Apart from that, some anecdotal "evidence" from Germany:
I went to my local gaming store here in germany for the first time in about a year and a 1/2, needed some gaming supplies that I did not want to wait for shipping *I order all my stuff online, the Euro price compared to the US price kills me, even with shipping charges, ofcourse I do't pay shipping to Germany*. While I was there I asked if he had any pathfinder stuff, First I was glad he knew what I was talking about, which was a good sign, and he pointed out to me the very small english section of books they had. Most of the stuff they have is in German, he said those sell better *Duh!* he apologized about the small english section, saying they sold most of his stock for Christmas.
The store is very small, the RPG section is just 3 small book shelves, I have a larger collection of RPG books at home, but I was glad to hear even with the small selection of books, they still bought and sold pathfinder!
In a nutshell, players just need to bite the bullet and determine what is more important to them; even more raw gaming accessories, or the ability to congregate with other gamers in a fun, safe, and welcoming environment. If you want a store to remain in your area, support them first. Buy whatever they can sell you. I do admit, I don't have everything. I don't begrudge someone coming online to order a book or playset of cards I don't have in stock and/or cannot get in stock. But if I do have it, it drives me nuts to have someone who knows I have it buy it online because its three dollars cheaper. Trust me, that sale means a lot to me, both in financial terms (I get to free up an investment AND hopefully make a little more) and in emotional terms (knowing I have a base that will support me and make the work worthwhile).
Nate, I appreciate your candor on this. Your post does, however, illustrate a bit of a disconnect I see with some shops and some customers.
For me, and a lot of people, game space at a local shop isn't an attraction. In fact, quite the opposite. The vast majority of stores that offer game space are filled with loud, obnoxious people, and I don't want to visit a place with loud, obnoxious people. I've been able to find exactly one shop that provides game space that doesn't turn me off, and that's because the game space is in a large area seperated from the main sales floor.
Additionally, if the online discounts were truly only $3, I'd be more than happy to purchase most/all of my product at the local game store.
Unfortunately, those online discounts readily approach $10-$20 per book - for a case of minis, it's significantly more.
I understand the overhead you detail, and I completely agree that you can't meet or match online pricing and survive. That said, while the almighty buck is not the most important factor in my purchasing decision, it's definitely a large factor - a factor that a lot of shops don't seem to appreciate.
It's not just online discounters that have spoiled us. Big box stores can sell CCGs for less. Not a week goes by that I don't have a 30%, 33% or 40% off "any one item" from Borders show up in my email.
I do understand that these places deal in volume, but I also know what kind of markups most RPG books and CCGs have. I don't expect the FLGS to discount to the level the online sellers or big boxes do, but it's really hard to reconcile the retail price with what I know I can get it for elsewhere - and, when I'm looking to purchase a quantity of books, it's even harder.
Case in point - over the past few months, I went from owning none of the Star Wars Saga Edition books to owning all of them. Retail on these books? $455. Amazon discount? $305. $150 is a lot of money, and I don't want to come off as a jerk, but I'd really rather that money be in my pocket to purchase other books. If an FLGS even offered 15% off, purchasing from them becomes eminently more palatable. I've seen one store offer discounts in the past, but that was 15 years ago, and he's out of the game. (I'd note, not due to lack of sales, but due to him getting old and wanting out. He sold his business, the new owner ceased discounting, and ended up folding about five years later. Not saying he went away because he stopped discounting, just saying.)
How do we balance this? I'd love to see the perfectly balanced FLGS...
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Sadly to disagree with Nate on one point, a lot of the online dealers are no longer some guy selling out of his house. I know a lot of LGS that have started selling online to offset their losses. I also know a few stores Brian that will negotiate discounts on large orders, it's just a matter of talking with them. I agree though that some balance has to be achieved in order for a LGS to survive and as Nate pointed out the biggest is play area. However the downside to that when it comes to our hobby is a large portion of game play is done in private homes and not at LGS or conventions. This goes for Pathfinder or any other game.
I'm going to take it as a compliment that apparently only the young 'uns are enjoying 4E; I and my cohorts have been enjoying both 4E and Pathfinder out here in NM, and very few of us are spring chickens (out of 14 gamers, 3 are in the 23-26 range, the rest are between 34 and 58; I come in at 39 as of this coming Feb. 2nd, gaming happily in all editions without angst or preconceptions since 1980). A couple of us prefer 4E, a couple prefer Pathfinder, but we all enjoy the hell out of both games and find little in either system in inhibit our role playing or game playing, either way. Me, I find one of my campaign settings fits 4E very well, and the other one snugly fits in with Pathfinder.
In terms of the FLGS, it's stocking a healthy amount of both systems, and it seems like there's vigorous local support for both PF and 4E, although I'm the only one who runs any PF in the store itself, apparently; there are a few 3.5ers around here who refuse to adopt PF, but someone is clearly buying it. The store owner prefers WotC, mostly because their business model supports B&M stores, he says, whereas he had a bad experience with a Paizo rep a couple years back and dislikes the approach Paizo is taking toward generating more sales online than in stores. That said, he's stocking both and selling them, so it still seems to work for him.
Right about now, I intend to buy just about everything for 4E that comes out; most of it is at least useful or interesting to me. I'm a bit pickier about the Pathfinder releases, and find myself wishing for more generic supplements, or at least books that move away from the Golarion setting, which are less useful to GMs like myself who prefer to use their own settings and designs; I need stuff that supports that.
For the record, I grew to greatly dislike 3.5 and the way WotC handled it; I have found both 4E and Pathfinder to be two different--and excellent--solutions to my dislike of the 3.5 era.
I wish your store was in my area Nate, I'd practically live there.Eh, Ludington's a tourist town. Stop by during the summer, camp for a weekend ^_^ I get a guy from Big Rapids, brings his family over to camp during the summer just so he's closer to the shop even for a long weekend, lol. I'm only about three hours away~
I love Ludington. The family and I went "camping" at Silver Lake a few years ago at a Yogi Bear tent/camper park. We go to Traverse City several times in the summer. I guess now I'll have to plan another camping trip this summer and stop in :)
However the downside to that when it comes to our hobby is a large portion of game play is done in private homes and not at LGS or conventions.
Oh I agree there. While I like seeing a game area at a store, and want to believe its good for the hobby (and by extension the store) by demonstrating people enjoying it, I pretty much never play in stores and don't see myself doing so anytime soon. I guess I'm just blessed to have a solid group of players who I've been gaming with for over 10 years now. One or two have come or gone over the years but the core remains and every now and then we cherry-pick a good player from some other group to join us. Playing in a store would be awkward and inconvenient for me. I generally like to ROLEplay and doing that in a store full of strangers would put me off my game. In my buddies house I can easily RP the 16 yr old barkeeps daughter, or the old man in the tower, or the intimidating dragon yelling at the heroes. In a store full of people I don't know I'd be more inclined to just say "umm I rolled an 11, do I hit?"
Just saying the roleplaying factor would probably drop through the floor for me in a store and that's my main reason for playing.
dm4hire: Yup, you're correct in that. A lot of stores do, and I do fair trade on eBay for items that I know are valuable enough to sell that I have little/no chance of selling locally. A lot still are or, at the very least, have SIGNIFICANTLY lower overhead than a regular retail outlet.
To both: Play area isn't necessarily THE thing, but it is A thing. Knowledgeable staff, demo space, the ability to showcase game play, those taken together is the most important thing. Brian, you're right about the noise & obnoxiousness; I do actually advise some folks to avoid my place Friday nights for that very reason; I pull 25-30 people for the Friday Night Magic events. During the day, however, I usually have a few folks hanging out, talking turkey about their games and favorites, playing a hand or two of games. This alone is invaluable, because walk-in traffic can then see what these games are, how they are played, ask questions of real players in the act of playing. This is a huge thing for the industry as a whole, because it introduces new blood into the market (I also sell used video games, so I pull from some different interests than straight PnP players).
Brian: Here's the math behind my situation; I will admit up front, I am a very unique example, I'm a small shop in a small town, but it is illustrative.
At the very least, bare-bones minimum, I NEED $2500 in sales to open my door day in, day out. That pays basic fees for rent, insurance, utilities, taxes, etc. This is for about 1500 square feet in a no-name town on a side-street that no one cares about. Start talking main avenue and rent doubles. Start talking developed area (such as a strip mall or developed property) and it triples. And that's juts in Podunk Michigan, where property values are through the floor. Start looking at larger cities or heavier traffic stretches and it will vary accordingly. The layout consists of a 20x20 lobby, wherein most of my game tables and displays are, a 12x13 office where I have product with my sales counter set into the wall open into the lobby, a 12x13 lounge, a 10x10 office for storage, and a 20x10 back office I sublease to a friend to do PC repair out of just to make ends meet.
That $2500 pays for the building and related materials, period. If I had an employee, even say part time, 20 hours a week, that's another $500-$600 a week in expenses, $2000-$2400 a month on rough math for the extra taxes, insurance, wages, and cost of goods to make that happen. Advertising, for a basic radio add in my community I was paying around $400 a month, plus fliers and little things we can round that to a $500 total. So, to run the joint, we're talking $3000 in sales bare minimum. Throw in an employee and we're at around $5500. Start offering steep discounts, ala the 40+%, and that can almost double. All of that is without paying Nate Petersen a dime.
Of a $30 item on my shelf, $20 of that is in raw product costs, some change in there for shipping, and if I've been sitting on it (like I've been sitting on copies of the 4e core books since last year) another portion of that is storage, holding & sitting on it. I might clear $5 raw profit on the item when all is said and done. I take a discount on the item, I annihilate profit margins. Your example with Amazon? You paid *at* or near cost on those books; were they on my shelf, that $150 you saved equates to roughly 37% of the sale, a little less than my profit margin, would have actually gone toward those bills of mine, while that $300~ would have paid for the raw product itself.
BASIC rate, depending on a given store's size and order rate, is 55-60% of cover. You start talking about those 35-40% discounts off cover, and there goes that margin. When Borders can buy in bulk and nail a 45-50% of cover rate (or less!) and turn around and offer 40% off SRP, they have a 10% margin, but across hundreds or thousands of titles and customers.
Really, its not that stores don't appreciate it, because we do, trust me. Its that for a mom & pop operation like myself that discount you're looking for is nearly my entire profit margin. I can squeak a little more out sometimes, but that's cutting things short. And doing that means I need to find the money elsewhere, which means I need higher raw sales; cutting $1 here or there can mean needing to make up $3 in gross sales elsewhere.
Regarding prior discounts, I know enough from other industry lists, prior owners in the area, and discussions with various folks involved in distribution, that things have changed greatly over the years. Margins WERE better, and it was easier to offer those discounts for many folks. Quite often, our prices behind the scenes go up without the manufacturer adjusting SRP to help. Without that, players expect SRP or less while we face rising costs to acquire said items in the first place, pinching us in two directions effectively.
As to the disconnect, here's the thing. We cannot, flat out, compete with raw cost, product assortment, anything like that. Can't happen. Any store that tries will fold in record time. Play space, support, and encouraging play, that keeps people in the store, allows us to suggest other titles, other cards or minis, accessories, etc. That is where we who do survive derive our money.
Having a game store entails certain costs, which is what that product mark-up pays for. We don't want to rip anyone off, we just want to pay our bills, have some fun, and continue to make a living ourselves. If you don't want to pay the mark-up, we can't pay those bills. It really is a simple thing at the end, like I said, we get what we pay for~
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Nate I would really love to comment more on your "rants" and comments in general but don't want to derail this thread. Would you be willing to post your last message in a new thread on that subject?
Back on topic - I forgot to mention that I'm glad Paizo is taking actions to improve the spreading of Pathfinder. Josh's post was most welcome.
Ah true, I ramble far too much ^_^ Will move accordingly~
Just having a place to go to look at reaper mini's to thumb through my favorite gaming books and decide if it fits in my collection. See the paints and decide if I want this master series paint, or citadel color. Talk to like minded people about the games is all the inspiration I need to buy the books from my local FLGS. I stop by once a week and nearly always find something I like. I bought my Beta, and core book from there and so did others from my group. Just to make sure it is there(the store) next week.(By the way they had 40 core rule books that sold out in a week. The Pathfinder selection is growing and now has its own section.)
Sometimes it can be fustrating, they still havn't gotten the Dwarves companion. It is worth the wait
The guys at the store always stear people to Pathfinder, they say if you want to play the best Miniature game ever writen try 4.0. I see people always thumbing through the Pathfinder books or buying a map pack. I hardly ever notice anyone looking at 4.0 edition.
I am just saying to Nate, that I for one would rather pay retail for my gear, than save a few dollars, just to have the local game store around. Now if you have a pathfinder #5 I will buy it from you!