RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I think a lot of this might be that the 4e releases that are coming out are not core in nature. Given limited funds, most gamers will only buy what they're expecting to see a lot of use. Maybe it will pick up when the PHB3, etc comes out.
In the meantime, Pathfinder is seeing a good roll because
a. It's awesome.
b. It's a low initial investment - a lot of gamers already have 3.x book they can use with it.
c. It's got a great 3PP policy, allowing publishers to create what they want.
d. It doesn't have the DDI, which has got to be pulling sales away from print products. Maybe not a lot, but some.
I for one, have played both and am happy that they're still both vibrant. If 4e brings younger kids to the hobby, great! If they move to Pathfinder down the line, even better! Let's keep the hobby alive so people like Paizo keep producing killer products.
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My FLGS is, unfortunately, choosing not to stock PF RPG because of the personal opinions the two owners hold. They keep a couple copies of the Core Rules and the Bestiary on hand, but the rest of the d20 is in the back on clearance.
4th edition dominates the shelf in the front of the store. I don't think any other games have much of a chance.
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Is 4E slowing down? Is Pathfinder picking up? Since there's no way for us to see the actual sales numbers, it doesn't really matter. Yes, your local store may have Pathfinder flying off the shelves. Meanwhile, 4E may be flying off the shelves of the two Big B's, so it may balance out.
Honestly, I've stopped fighting the edition war. My preference is for Pathfinder's rules for my fantasy gaming. I also prefer Shadowrun for my cyberpunk, Battletech for my miniatures gaming and d20 Modern over GURPS. If the younger generation gets introduced to gaming through 4th Edition, that's terrific! The more gamers the better. As for some of the comments that having them being introduced by gaming through 4E as a bad thing, I don't think so. Those that get introduced to the game and want more will come looking at Pathfinder and other systems to find that game that 'fits' them. If they are happy with 4E, then the industry succeeds.
What have I learned from the past few years? That gaming sytems/companies are not in some ultimate Highlander Gathering where there can be only one. Also, where most gaming companies have fed off the scraps of TSR/WotC/Hasbro in the past, now many have pulled up a chair to the table and, although not equal to the might of the company, can at least hold their own.
I was done with WoTC when they did what they did to the Forgotten Realms
Yes, but the DDI is paradoxically probably the single biggest obstacle for 3rd party pubs when it comes to 4e. Doesn't matter if your book is the single greatest supplement ever published; if it's not in the DDI, there are a lot of 4e DMs and players who won't even look at it, so why bother to publish for 4e?You also have to consider Wizards DDI (online subscription) in the mix, becaues Pathfinder does not offer an equivalent. Therefore, sales at your local game store may not be a direct reflection on the popularity of 4E.
Most people that subscribe to DDI don't bother with the books. But this does play to pathfinders advantage if they support your local retailer.
I agree that with current licensing for 4E and the lack of third party customization for tools like DDI does not provide any incentive for game developers to jump on the 4E band wagon. Plus you already had the open game license, so why would previous supporters switch to the new one?
I see the war of words between 4E and pathfinder and/or 3.5 can be equated to arguing your preferences in regards to Microsoft operating system versus Apple. Both systems can accomplish the same task, but you will find it hard to convince a staunch supporter of one system that the other is better (or even considered an operating system).
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It comes down to (for me at least) a deep anger at WoTC over many of their recent actions as well as the direction they took with 4E.
Begin Rant:
** spoiler omitted **Anyway, so that's my mini rant. I think the thinking also is that if, hypothetically, 4E just freaking destroyed the market, and 95% of people were playing it, those of us who prefer the 3.x generation fear that no new products would be released for our preferred system. In order to not have the fear of our preferred rules generation dying, we would like to think our preferred system is at least nearly at parity with the other popular systems, thereby reassuring us we are good for a long time to come.
Also, there's a bit of "haha they're suffering now! they never should have did 4E!!!"
And no, in general, for me, I am not happy the kids are playing 4E. I'd much rather they be playing 3.x. I fear that getting started with 4E will drastically skew their idea of what this game can be. As it is I have players of the younger generation who already have almost no attention span or patience.
+1.
No, +1000
4.x addresses a lot of problems of 3.x play, a big one in particular is the fact that playing a healer class has never been a particularly popular choice.
In almost every campaign I've ran or played in over about 30 years of gaming, I've never had a scenario where someone said "crap I have to be the cleric." On the contrary, in 3.x the cleric was one of the most popular classes in campaigns I ran and played in. I guess people have different experiences of course just saying in my experience I've never seen this problem (and as a result didn't think anything needed to be fixed in 4E for the cleric).
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4.x addresses a lot of problems of 3.x play, a big one in particular is the fact that playing a healer class has never been a particularly popular choice.In almost every campaign I've ran or played in over about 30 years of gaming, I've never had a scenario where someone said "crap I have to be the cleric." On the contrary, in 3.x the cleric was one of the most popular classes in campaigns I ran and played in. I guess people have different experiences of course just saying in my experience I've never seen this problem (and as a result didn't think anything needed to be fixed in 4E for the cleric).
Hi all, lets please keep it on track. I started this to see about change in sales. Not to discuss the egitions. Because my local store's biggest seller right now was items out of print, I wanted to see if other areas were the same. I also know here that we have an older gaming population. Young kids around here do nto get into game like this, they stick to video games, and that could be a reason for the dynamic. We have another local store that tends to have a lot more younger players, and I wonder how they do.
It is good to see pathfinder pick up. I just hope if 4th does continue to slow, that the revunue is still goign to hobby somehow, rather than to other things like CRPGs, etc.
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A few months back I was at a game store looking for a copy of the Bestiary. I had visited the same store when Beta came out and had been told that they were not going to carry Pathfinder because 4E was the only game in town and there was no interest in Pathfinder. The shop had equal space dedicated to Pathfinder and 4E, but all thir Pathfinder stuff was sold out and the shelves for 4E were mostly full. The clerk on duty at the time told me that they could not keep Pathfinder in stock. That being said, I find that I enjoy both games, despite the differences.
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A few months back I was at a game store looking for a copy of the Bestiary. I had visited the same store when Beta came out and had been told that they were not going to carry Pathfinder because 4E was the only game in town and there was no interest in Pathfinder. The shop had equal space dedicated to Pathfinder and 4E, but all thir Pathfinder stuff was sold out and the shelves for 4E were mostly full. The clerk on duty at the time told me that they could not keep Pathfinder in stock. That being said, I find that I enjoy both games, despite the differences.
This happened to a buddy of mine in a NY store. At first, the owner was not interested, even mocking Paizo and now he's been getting a lot of PF products lately on the shelves.
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I went to a local Barnes and Noble just last week. They have on3 bookshelf listed for Rpgs. The top three shelves are for WotC product and everything else was on the bottom shelf. I found it was funny that they had an empty slot where Pathfinder was to have been but had four copies of the 4E players handbook. I took the Pathfinder book out and put it into the display holder so it was on top. I have no clue though what their actual sales were. They had only one copy of pathfinder and a few empty spaces next to it. But then again they may have only ordered one.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Very interesting.
I made the switch to 4e while maintaining my PF subscriptions, but really, DDI taught me quickly that it wasn't worth my while to purchase the actual books. Lugging around a large collection has always been my least favorite part of gaming, and I really like the DDI's ability to cross reference and find information without having a dozen books spread out around me. I have never found the 4e books particularly interesting to read, so having the fact that the fluff is stripped out of DDI hasn't been a good enough reason for me to buy the actual books.
I'll have to take a look next time I'm at my FLGS (Game Empire in San Diego). The last time I was there (November?), they had a D&D type set of shelves, with maybe 1/3 PF and 2/3 4e.
This happened to a buddy of mine in a NY store. At first, the owner was not interested, even mocking Paizo and now he's been getting a lot of PF products lately on the shelves.
Well, that probably happens to all New Kids On The Block...
...then again, I still mock NKOTB. ;)
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Of course, looking at the shelves isn't always all that informative. One could look at a shelf and see that the spot for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is empty, and they have 5 4e PHBs, and draw the conclusion that Pathfinder is selling better. But if the store had ordered 10 4e PHBs, and 2 Pathfinder Core Rulebooks, the opposite would be true.
That said, the information we've been getting from store owners, etc, has been interesting. It's always hard to say, though, how much is a shift in what edition people are playing versus how much has to do with the fact that Pathfinder had a few big releases in the past 6 months while WotC has been releasing mostly DM-oriented splatbooks during that time.
For me, I'm just glad when people are playing any edition.
Very interesting.
I made the switch to 4e while maintaining my PF subscriptions, but really, DDI taught me quickly that it wasn't worth my while to purchase the actual books. Lugging around a large collection has always been my least favorite part of gaming, and I really like the DDI's ability to cross reference and find information without having a dozen books spread out around me. I have never found the 4e books particularly interesting to read, so having the fact that the fluff is stripped out of DDI hasn't been a good enough reason for me to buy the actual books.
I'll have to take a look next time I'm at my FLGS (Game Empire in San Diego). The last time I was there (November?), they had a D&D type set of shelves, with maybe 1/3 PF and 2/3 4e.
Exactly, we are in the media age, it almost seems like a basic necessity to have a online tool (or stand alone) that consolidates all the various rules and references. Without this I am very reluctant to take on a new or old game (I stil prefer GURPS over D20).
I picked up a few 3.5 books on Amazon back when 4.0 was starting out. Cheap. Now those same books have experienced a dramatic increase in price, even on eBay. Regardless of how 4.0 is going, 3.5 is going strong.
I picked up a few 3.5 books on Amazon back when 4.0 was starting out. Cheap. Now those same books have experienced a dramatic increase in price, even on eBay. Regardless of how 4.0 is going, 3.5 is going strong.Of course the cost of BESM 3 is also going up on most sites. What does that mean?
Demand is higher than supply, silly rabbit. *smack*
Demand is higher than supply, silly rabbit. *smack*I picked up a few 3.5 books on Amazon back when 4.0 was starting out. Cheap. Now those same books have experienced a dramatic increase in price, even on eBay. Regardless of how 4.0 is going, 3.5 is going strong.Of course the cost of BESM 3 is also going up on most sites. What does that mean?
BESM 3 rules! 4E Sux! Burn!
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I went to a local Barnes and Noble just last week. .... I took the Pathfinder book out and put it into the display holder so it was on top.
LOL
I did the same thing at the Books A Million.
They had a full shelf of the WotC game (the top shelf) and, like I mentioned earlier, a bottom shelf of tons of 3E compatable products piled in like junk. I took all the Pathfinder stuff out, a Bestiary, one AP volume, 3 Companion books, a Module and a few GameMastery maps, and spread them out on the first shelf, making the top shelf a nice Paizo display, hiding all the WotC product.
It's probably the most immature, silly thing I've done in years and I felt really cheesy but I gotta admit, it felt a little good, too.
I went to a local Barnes and Noble just last week. .... I took the Pathfinder book out and put it into the display holder so it was on top.LOL
I did the same thing at the Books A Million.
They had a full shelf of the WotC game (the top shelf) and, like I mentioned earlier, a bottom shelf of tons of 3E compatable products piled in like junk. I took all the Pathfinder stuff out, a Bestiary, one AP volume, 3 Companion books, a Module and a few GameMastery maps, and spread them out on the first shelf, making the top shelf a nice Paizo display, hiding all the WotC product.
It's probably the most immature, silly thing I've done in years and I felt really cheesy but I gotta admit, it felt a little good, too.
Vive le resistance!
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I have a friend who works at a chain bookstore, I won't name it so he doesn't get in trouble. According to him, the way that books are displayed on a shelf is primarily dictated by the distributer. In each shipment of new books they recieve, there is a sheet that shows the suggested display pattern for that section. Otherwise they are supposed to put the books in alphebetical order based on title or author. The moral of the story is that 4E is usually the most promenantly displayed because that is what the distributer wants.
While I have no idea about sales numbers, I can report some anecdotal evidence.
Around the time the first printing of the Core Rules released, I stopped by Barnes and Noble. It carried a shelf full of 4e, but the only Paizo product it had was a single copy of Classic Monsters Revisited.
I returned to the same store a few months ago. They still had a 4e display of the same size, but they now had three copies of the Core Rules and a few other Paizo books on the shelf. By comparison, that gave Paizo about the same amount of shelf space as White Wolf.
I'm also seeing the same trend that others are seeing at Half-Price Books. Third edition books are flying off the shelf as fast as they come in. And I have yet to see a single Paizo product on the shelf at a bargain bookstore.
Yeah, watching several HPBs, and 3.x books are getting fewer and further between. Certain rarer ones and the core books just never appear anymore. Recently, some guy sold about 50 books in Arlington. I wish I checked back to see if they are already gone.
My perception, PF hasn't been nearly successful enough for my tastes. When 4e came out, 3.x stuff starting selling dirt cheap. Since that time, the prices have risen back up to the previous values, and in some cases surpassed them. When PF was released, there wasn't even a ripple in the price of 3.x products. As a 3.5 player/DM, I was disappointed. Come on people, sell your 3.5 stuff! We'z wantz it!
And yes, I know some are going to claim, that is because you can use 3.x stuff with PF and there is certainly some truth in that (get your own stuff dirty PF fans, grrr), but look at the price of 3.5 PHB. In some cases they are selling at higher prices higher than the PF core book that has both the PHB and DMG material in it. You can't really claim people are buying the 3.5 PHB to be used in PF games INSTEAD of a PF core book.
So dang it PF fans, get out there and promote your system, and get those people to upgrade (and sell off their tasty 3.x game materials). Official PF and PF-compatible stuff only! That should be the battle call (get rid of all that d20 material, hee hee).
I can safely say I am the only person in my country to own actual PF books. I´ll go cry myself to sleep now
Nauru? The Vatican? S.M.O.M.?
What I find funny is that the 3.x and Pathfinder guys around here have totally given up on the edition war, but the 4th edition guys don't seem to realize that the war is over.
The guy James, from THIS VIDEO is the Organizer of the NYC D&D Meetup group. He's an otherwise decent guy and has done a great job organizing and maintaining the group. However I had to take a leave from the group for a awhile because he and a few others couldn't NOT stop taking pot shots at 3.5 every chance he got. I thought that he was over it and came back to the group and have been running Pathfinder ever since. Apparently he still cant stop taking pot shots at a system that he's NOT EVEN PLAYING ANYMORE (although I do agree with him about the confirming thing and have pretty much house rules that out since the beginning...).
The story I've been hearing from a number of sources is that Pathfinder and 3.5 is indeed doing well with experienced gamers, but that 4E is proving popular with the younger crowd. In fact, I've heard stories that this is leading to a whole new generation of kids getting into roleplaying. While Pathfinder is certainly my preferred system, I can only see the acquisition of younger gamers as a positive thing.I have no interest in 4E but I am very glad to hear that it's helping to bring in another generation of gamers.
Maybe now 4e is compiting against videogames rather than actual tabletop RPGs. If I was to play a videogame-like RPG I'd rather grab an actual video game... The lack of fluff and super-simplified rules are great for simple videogame-like gaming, but for those who rather enjoy character build up, customization and backgroud story may feel more at home on "old-school" RPGs.
Frerezar wrote:
I can safely say I am the only person in my country to own actual PF books. I´ll go cry myself to sleep now
Nauru? The Vatican? S.M.O.M.?
Nah i live in Perú,
PD: if anyone knows any other Pf fan dow there it would be appreciated.
Buena suerte señor, yo apenas conozco como a 4 personas que juegan PF aqui en Mèxico... Espero que haya muchas màs :)
Frerezar wrote:
I can safely say I am the only person in my country to own actual PF books. I´ll go cry myself to sleep now
Nauru? The Vatican? S.M.O.M.?
Nah i live in Perú,
PD: if anyone knows any other Pf fan dow there it would be appreciated.
Where in Peru, Frerezar?
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Frerezar wrote:
Hogart wrote:
Frerezar wrote:
I can safely say I am the only person in my country to own actual PF books. I´ll go cry myself to sleep now
Nauru? The Vatican? S.M.O.M.?
Nah i live in Perú,
PD: if anyone knows any other Pf fan dow there it would be appreciated.
Where in Peru, Frerezar?
Lima, Perú (which also makes shipping big books a nightmare)
Also Amazon rankings aren't accurate measures of how good one book really has done compared to another book due to other sellers and the way that Amazon sets up it's ranking formula.
Lima, Perú (which also makes shipping big books a nightmare)Frerezar wrote:
Hogart wrote:
Frerezar wrote:
I can safely say I am the only person in my country to own actual PF books. I´ll go cry myself to sleep now
Nauru? The Vatican? S.M.O.M.?
Nah i live in Perú,
PD: if anyone knows any other Pf fan dow there it would be appreciated.
Where in Peru, Frerezar?
Ah. Well, a group that goes to Peru keeps inviting me to accompany them, but even if I went one of these times, I don't think they spend any time in Lima.
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Also Amazon rankings aren't accurate measures of how good one book really has done compared to another book due to other sellers and the way that Amazon sets up it's ranking formula.
Which is why I said "at the time of this post". It does reflect how well the book(s) are selling on Amazon currently.
I am pretty biased as to which one I prefer, so I try to avoid putting in my opinion when I can, but I was talking my FLGS owner today and he said that his 4th ed sales are slowing way down, and his pathfinder sales are picking up. He also said that 3.5 sales are growing like crazy. So much that the books people were trading in (To buy 4ed) are now selling over retail as he can't keep them on the shelves. (While my friend was there someone bought the Expanded Psionics handbook for $45.)
Without debating the system, marketing etc, I am just wondering it anyone else has seen this change. I know it is good for Pathfinder, but it is good for the hobby in general?
It's happened at a hobby shop I used to frequent. When 4E came out, he had a few buyers, maybe mediocre at best. But they stopped at the core books, he didn't sell anything much after the core books, and then his Pathfinder has been selling like crazy along with more 3.5e books. He owns the store and him and the other employees tell their customers "Don't waste your time with 4E. You're better off with Pathfinder."
But he said it more on a personal level, telling us he finds the system total garbage and the ones that didn't but 4E already saw that and the ones that did are now beginning to see that. So with him it was a mixture of personal and business feelings I guess.
Also Amazon rankings aren't accurate measures of how good one book really has done compared to another book due to other sellers and the way that Amazon sets up it's ranking formula.
True but its still interesting
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Some anecdotal evidence from Finland... I asked at my FLGS about 4E and PF RPG sales in my country. Now, they're the only brick-and-mortar RPG shop around here, and part of the only RPG chain in the country (i.e. they should know something about this subject). They told me that the initial sales for 4E spiked to the level of 3E books (I understood this to mean 3E sales in general), but quickly dropped after the first three core books to the point of selling less than the last 3E books did (and these didn't sell too well). PF books (which are only stocked at their store in Helsinki) are apparently selling well, and re-stocked from time to time.
Now, take this with a grain of salt -- it's all second-hand information, and I may have misunderstood something. And, I even personally know some people who pre-order their 4E stuff from Amazon, and I would dare say they probably aren't the only ones who do so in Finland. On the other hand, the same goes for PF fans, too.
Also, regardless of the well-known fact that Cheliax is our "faction of choice", I cannot say how many people in Finland actually belong to PF Society (Josh might know the answer to this one). I *do* know, however, that out of the 30+ gamers I know in RL only a handful are playing 4E and the rest are split between 3E and PF RPG.
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Some anecdotal evidence from Finland... I asked at my FLGS about 4E and PF RPG sales in my country. Now, they're the only brick-and-mortar RPG shop around here, and part of the only RPG chain in the country (i.e. they should know something about this subject). They told me that the initial sales for 4E spiked to the level of 3E books (I understood this to mean 3E sales in general), but quickly dropped after the first three core books to the point of selling less than the last 3E books did (and these didn't sell too well). PF books (which are only stocked at their store in Helsinki) are apparently selling well, and re-stocked from time to time.
That's the same reaction from my FLGS. The owner pointed out to me, though, that Pathfinder is still "new" at barely a year old while it's been, what, two years or so for DnD 4e. Interest in the former and stability in the latter could be attributed to the "new shiny" factor surrounding Pathfinder.
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Also Amazon rankings aren't accurate measures of how good one book really has done compared to another book due to other sellers and the way that Amazon sets up it's ranking formula.True but its still interesting
I've taken a look at the sales ranks from time to time (for a month or so now), and every time PF Core Rulebook has ranked higher than any 4E books, with the Bestiary being among top five. I know the list is updated on a hourly basis, and it's not indicative of anything in a short time period... however, I think a month is another story -- especially if you do it at random intervals two or three times per week.
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That's the same reaction from my FLGS. The owner pointed out to me, though, that Pathfinder is still "new" at barely a year old while it's been, what, two years or so for DnD 4e. Interest in the former and stability in the latter could be attributed to the "new shiny" factor surrounding Pathfinder.
I suspect that the surprisingly low sales figures of 4E books can be mostly attributed to DDI. I've even seen many, many 4E DMs claiming (especially on EnWorld) that "DDI subscription is all my group needs -- myself included".
I would never claim that PF RPG is becoming more successful or popular than 4E; just that in my experince -- based on all the anecdotal evidence I've seen -- 3E/PF is doing well, especially in books (maybe even better than 4E here in Europe).
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I've taken a look at the sales ranks from time to time (for a month or so now), and every time PF Core Rulebook has ranked higher than any 4E books, with the Bestiary being among top five. I know the list is updated on a hourly basis, and it's not indicative of anything in a short time period... however, I think a month is another story -- especially if you do it at random intervals two or three times per week.
Interesting article about Amazon's ranking formula.
"Books with rankings between 10,000 and 100,000 are recalculated once a day, rather than once an hour."
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I suspect that the surprisingly low sales figures of 4E books can be mostly attributed to DDI. I've even seen many, many 4E DMs claiming (especially on EnWorld) that "DDI subscription is all my group needs -- myself included".
I find that really interesting. I don't know how folks can do that. Of course I'm a father of three with only one PC in the home, so, computer access can be pretty limited for me, at times ;)
