Sales - 4 slowing, 3.5 picking up, Is this what you see?


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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am pretty biased as to which one I prefer, so I try to avoid putting in my opinion when I can, but I was talking my FLGS owner today and he said that his 4th ed sales are slowing way down, and his pathfinder sales are picking up. He also said that 3.5 sales are growing like crazy. So much that the books people were trading in (To buy 4ed) are now selling over retail as he can't keep them on the shelves. (While my friend was there someone bought the Expanded Psionics handbook for $45.)

Without debating the system, marketing etc, I am just wondering it anyone else has seen this change. I know it is good for Pathfinder, but it is good for the hobby in general?


i just adding my 2gp but pathfinder was the right thing at the right time. why wotc did what it did still mace a hole lot of sens to me but i only know one person who keep with wotc after 4.o

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There certainly is a massive surge of 3PP products for Pathfinder in comparsion to 3PP support for 4ed.

This is likely a result of the whole GSL snafu, but I wonder how much does it reflect the sale-ability of Pathfinder material.

Dark Archive

Personally i think it depends on a few factors. Like as a example locally one of the stores has a tables to use for games. If you go and check their is a good mix of games. If you look at the ages of the people playing the games I noticed a trend. At least locally. The older groups more often than not was playing 3.5/pathfinder, the younger groups 4e. Single adults tend to have more money than kids to spend.

I know the local guy that owns the chain of stores says pathfinder sells as well as 4e right now and 3.5 books sell well enough he has started hunting down as many old 3.5 he can to sell in his stores. But he has also said that 4e sales has slowed some and Pathfinder sales are slowly but steadly been growing in sales.

On the flip side I have a friend that lives in a collage town and he said his local store the 4e stuff sells better. So who knows.

Dark Archive

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Personally i think it depends on a few factors. Like as a example locally one of the stores has a tables to use for games. If you go and check their is a good mix of games. If you look at the ages of the people playing the games I noticed a trend. At least locally. The older groups more often than not was playing 3.5/pathfinder, the younger groups 4e. Single adults tend to have more money than kids to spend.

I have noticed at my local cons in NJ and PA LFR(4.0) is doing oh, 8 -12 tables per slot versus 1 - 2 tables for Pathfinder Society. Then there will be 1 or 2 tables of Shining Jewel (using Pathfinder rules now) and perhaps one White Star or Witch Hunter (using their own d20 systems). The non wotc living style games tend to be the same group of players and so one game system canabalizes the other.

My 2 local game stores (NEPA region) don't even carry Pathfinder(despite my best efforts), though I see Borders Books have two copies of the Core Rulebook and Bestiary now. All are overflowing with wotc materials.

Third edition and it's offshoots ARE picking up new players and seeing the return of 4.0 converts, but I agree the younger crowd is more attracted to 4th edition.


Wasn't attracting a younger crowd one of the design goals of 4th?

It seems to me, both are doing well for the markets they are aiming at. And I don't see the hobby diminishing, in fact the opposite. 4th and Pathfinder appeal to different groups of players, and if one or the other did not exist, then that whole segment of the industry wouldn't exist either.

Sovereign Court

My FLGS has not been selling a whole lot of 4th edition products but has gone through quite a huge number of Paizo's products.

The local Half-priced books I visit tends to be pretty light on older D&D editions and have a good stock of 4E books that just seem to sit there on the shelf. They told me they burn through 3rd edition books as fast as they get them.


I haven't been following the situation, but I would like to see all sales for all RPG companies go up. Not least of which as an indicator of the general economy.

I didn't like what WotC did with 4e, but I hope many people did and that they remain in the hobby, as that's what's best for all fans of RPGs at large.


Agreed, sir.


Evil Lincoln wrote:

I haven't been following the situation, but I would like to see all sales for all RPG companies go up. Not least of which as an indicator of the general economy.

I didn't like what WotC did with 4e, but I hope many people did and that they remain in the hobby, as that's what's best for all fans of RPGs at large.

I would agree with that sentiment.

When the PF core book came out last year, I called several gaming stores within 45 minutes' drive and none of them were planning on carrying the book... so, I had to buy it at the local Borders. Each one said they had seen a general decline in RPG sales and were only special ordering RPG books.

I should follow up with them to see if they have the PF books now. But, we've lost at least two long-time gaming stores in my area (Hartford area in Connecticut) in the past few years, as well as the local Games Workshop.

Grand Lodge

The three LGS I'm familiar with in the region are pretty equal supporting Pathfinder D&D and the WotC game. But I must admit that I and many of my gaming buddies are strong supporters and "advertisers" for Pathfinder D&D, talking to intereted bystanders, gamers and non. As a result, I think that we have had an affect on these LGS. I know that I have gotten about a dozen gamers either completely unaware of Paizo or transitioners from 3.5 to the WotC game to get interested in Paizo and buy the Pathfinder Core Book and before that the Beta Playtests. Two of these dozen have become strong supporters of Paizo products (spreading the word and spending money). And they all play Pathfinder D&D either with or without some of the 3.5 books. None are into the WotC game.

But when I go to a Books'A-Million, Barnes-N-Noble or Borders, or when I go to an occassional LGS where my friends and I haven't been "talking-it-up", there's either absolutely no Paizo products at all or just one (or maybe two) old Gamemastery module or a Companion book -- hidden in with all the sub-quality d20 junk.

Contributor

The story I've been hearing from a number of sources is that Pathfinder and 3.5 is indeed doing well with experienced gamers, but that 4E is proving popular with the younger crowd. In fact, I've heard stories that this is leading to a whole new generation of kids getting into roleplaying. While Pathfinder is certainly my preferred system, I can only see the acquisition of younger gamers as a positive thing.

Dark Archive

Darrin Drader wrote:
The story I've been hearing from a number of sources is that Pathfinder and 3.5 is indeed doing well with experienced gamers, but that 4E is proving popular with the younger crowd. In fact, I've heard stories that this is leading to a whole new generation of kids getting into roleplaying. While Pathfinder is certainly my preferred system, I can only see the acquisition of younger gamers as a positive thing.

Pretty much the same thing I have been seeing and hearing. The local store that has gaming tables. The last time i was there the tables with 3.5/Pathfinder was mostly late 20's on up players. While most of those playing 4e was mid twenties on down with a couple of games I seen run with all teens playing and GMing.

Dark Archive

Darrin Drader wrote:
The story I've been hearing from a number of sources is that Pathfinder and 3.5 is indeed doing well with experienced gamers, but that 4E is proving popular with the younger crowd. In fact, I've heard stories that this is leading to a whole new generation of kids getting into roleplaying. While Pathfinder is certainly my preferred system, I can only see the acquisition of younger gamers as a positive thing.

+1.


As a store owner, player, and publisher, oh the joy, I can weigh in right from behind whichever desk you like ^_^

A) My 4E sales were fantastic at launch. And then nothing. A lot of it was the hype, but the snafus at launch kept 3PP away. I know a LOT of 3PP I've been in contact with on publisher forums and lists shied away from 4e until there was a concise position on the GSL. Not having that out in a timely fashion hurt badly, not to mention the constraints it imposed. So yea, burst of sales from WotC marketing and then nothing, because the supplement treadmill that was supposed to follow and keep it rolling as it did with 3e died before it started.

B) Economically, I know a lot of locals unwilling to drop $90-$110 on a trio of new books when their old ones service them just as well. I live in Michigan, and we've been scraping a LOT longer than other regions, so 4e kicked in when we were flat-ass-broke from the gas hike, job scale-backs, and what not. So bad timing there, Wizards. I can only imagine my sales would have been higher were it not for the economy even then.

C) As a retailer, pretty much from day one (going on three years! woot!) I have had demands for 3e product. I order titles off eBay for regulars all the time, track down what I can, and almost always move titles when I put them on the shelf. Not true for 2e, and not true for 4e; in fact, I have a 4e DMG sitting on my shelf from last February. My supplier JUST started stocking Paizo products, and if they had stocked them earlier I could have sold a dozen copies of the PFRPG; as it was, I ordered several copies at a time from the likes of Paizo and Troll & Toad when they were in stock just so I could put them in my player's hands.

D) Unlike 2e, which had become pretty well bloated by the time 3e rolled out, 3e was still a strong, robust system with heavy support from players, retailers, and publishers (which is sort of a first for the publisher end of things). Moving when they did to shore up their IP and encouraging publishers and retailers to dial back a successful product line ran counter-intuitive to many folks. PF and general 3.x materials still sell well because the system is still manageable.


As a 3rd Party Publisher,

I am glad to hear that Pathfinder is growing, but I also believe all Roleplaying Games are good for the hobby becuase you are more likely to try another game like Pathfinder if your still playing pen and paper RPGs. You are more likely to never try something like Pathfinder RPG if Life Happens to you and you stop playing.

It was why we supported Breaking of Fostor Nagar for Virtual Table Top use and I was so happy Paizo allowed us to create the product. I wanted folks to be able to play even if they were in different parts of the world.

Steve Russell
Rite Publishing

The Exchange

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Darrin Drader wrote:
The story I've been hearing from a number of sources is that Pathfinder and 3.5 is indeed doing well with experienced gamers, but that 4E is proving popular with the younger crowd. In fact, I've heard stories that this is leading to a whole new generation of kids getting into roleplaying. While Pathfinder is certainly my preferred system, I can only see the acquisition of younger gamers as a positive thing.
Pretty much the same thing I have been seeing and hearing. The local store that has gaming tables. The last time i was there the tables with 3.5/Pathfinder was mostly late 20's on up players. While most of those playing 4e was mid twenties on down with a couple of games I seen run with all teens playing and GMing.

The thing that interests me about all of this is that it shows Paizo's habit of writing darker, more adult themed adventures might be a very shrewd business move. It's quite possible that younger players will see Pathfinder as something to graduate to.

Dark Archive

brock wrote:


The thing that interests me about all of this is that it shows Paizo's habit of writing darker, more adult themed adventures might be a very shrewd business move. It's quite possible that younger players will see Pathfinder as something to graduate to.

"Graduate"? From DnD? From the few youngsters I've seen, they more likely to check out WoD or Warhammer 4000 rpg (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader).

Dark Archive

I spend a good amount of time at my FLGS (and more money than I should).And the big product for gaming at my FLGS is not D&D or Pathfinder. Its Warhammer (Not roleplay but 40k and fantasy war games). They have a tournament almost every weekend and fill up all of the tables in the game room with wargamers. But they do keep a solid stock of tabletop RPGs, along with comics, boardgames, action figures, pulp fiction, novels, and movies. Yes my local game store is f*&$ing fantastic. I hope it stays around for a long time.

What I have noticed is that 4e was very hot when it came out. My group and several other groups in town were buying each release as it came out and there was a lot of play going on in the game room of 4e. I dropped off of the 4e scene before the PFRPG came out and was attempting to get my store to back order some of the older AP for me. It did not go well (but this is due to the buying restrictions put in place by the owner, and their distributor not having the older copies in stock, so I was told). I did eventually get them to put me on draw (order 1e of each new product in Paizo's catalog as it comes out) for most of Paizo's stuff. After a month or two of filling my orders and with the exceptional sales of the hardback Paizo books they now buy 6-8 ea of Paizo's stuff and sell most of it fairly fast (there are still a few copies of various AP on their shelves).

I am not sure how this compares to the 4e sales. 4e has a little more shelf space than Paizo in my FLGS, but I think that has to do with those 4e titles sitting 4-6 deep on the shelf, The Paizo stuff almost always sells out or down to one copy. They restock the Paizo hardbacks when this happens, but I talked to the manager and they are afraid to stock APs chronicles and modules that are not the current edition as the look at them almost like magazines or comics, and they have not seen enough interest in older stuff to make them feel comfortable buying APs from for instance last year.

But all in all in my discussions with the folks behind the counter, they have been fairly impressed with Pathfinder and will continue to stock it.

love,

malkav

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Nate Petersen wrote:

As a store owner, player, and publisher, oh the joy, I can weigh in right from behind whichever desk you like ^_^

Nate - as a store owner, do you have any thoughts on how the PF Core pdf may have affected sales for you? I remember when the price of $9.99 was announced there was a lot of talk about how it might take away sales from gaming stores. I'm just curious as to how it has worked out.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Well I know that 4e stuff is starting to show a up at some of the area Half Price Books. The real bummer is that the 3.x stuff is actually getting more expensive. I'm seeing 3.x material selling at Half Price Books for well over cover price!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darrin Drader wrote:
The story I've been hearing from a number of sources is that Pathfinder and 3.5 is indeed doing well with experienced gamers, but that 4E is proving popular with the younger crowd. In fact, I've heard stories that this is leading to a whole new generation of kids getting into roleplaying. While Pathfinder is certainly my preferred system, I can only see the acquisition of younger gamers as a positive thing.

I have no interest in 4E but I am very glad to hear that it's helping to bring in another generation of gamers.

Sczarni

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
DitheringFool wrote:
Well I know that 4e stuff is starting to show a up at some of the area Half Price Books. The real bummer is that the 3.x stuff is actually getting more expensive. I'm seeing 3.x material selling at Half Price Books for well over cover price!

The store I work for sold a used 3.5 PHB for $50 last week - it only lasted 3 days on the shelf


You also have to consider Wizards DDI (online subscription) in the mix, becaues Pathfinder does not offer an equivalent. Therefore, sales at your local game store may not be a direct reflection on the popularity of 4E.

Most people that subscribe to DDI don't bother with the books. But this does play to pathfinders advantage if they support your local retailer.

As to young or old players, I see alot of older players interested in 4E. But I do agree that 4E is a good thing for young players and Pathfinder, because once they get the hang of it, they will be attracted to a more complex system (offering more choices).

It will be interesting to see if Wizards (4E) changes their tactics in regard to online content versus direct sales at the local retailer.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
DitheringFool wrote:
Well I know that 4e stuff is starting to show a up at some of the area Half Price Books. The real bummer is that the 3.x stuff is actually getting more expensive. I'm seeing 3.x material selling at Half Price Books for well over cover price!

Not a bummer for me, I have 5 copies of the 3.x PHB (1 3.0, 4 3.5.. 2 of which are the softcover!)

I'm glad 3.x is starting to revalue, it doesn't make me feel so bad when I buy an AD&D box set for $50. :)

Dark Archive

Cpt_kirstov wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
Well I know that 4e stuff is starting to show a up at some of the area Half Price Books. The real bummer is that the 3.x stuff is actually getting more expensive. I'm seeing 3.x material selling at Half Price Books for well over cover price!
The store I work for sold a used 3.5 PHB for $50 last week - it only lasted 3 days on the shelf

Huh those are the only books i don't see selling really well. There is a local gaming auction 3-4 times a year here. Typically the PHB, MM and DMG 3.0 sell for 10 bucks or less each and the 3.5 for not much more. The rest of the splat books and the like typically sell for cover price or near to it or just over. Which considering the auction is a big deal, the store owner and auctionier often jokes he couldn't sell a 20 dollar bill for 10 dollars at the auction.

The 4e books at the auction sold for about 10-15 per hard back and the adventures for about 5 each. Which use to be the normal price for 3e books when it was still in print.


Uchawi wrote:


It will be interesting to see if Wizards (4E) changes their tactics in regard to online content versus direct sales at the local retailer.

Didn't their spin doctors do a huge thing about supporting brick & mortar stores a while ago? It did have that opportunistic feeling to it, but still.

Dark Archive

In Hawaii, mostly it's just 4th Edition, from what I see at my FLGS. It was really disappointing, really, since now I have to choke down 3 hours of combat and half an hour of RPing if I want to play DND.

If there is a PF or 3.5 game going right now, I can't find it. And I looked really, really hard. I have, however, dicovered other RPGs in lieu (sp?) of DND 4e (which I loathe):

Mouse Guard, Dark Heresy, some crazy game where you play 5 different characters over the course of the game, Warhammer (I suck at it, and therefore hate it, similiar to my unending hatred of Monopoly).

Dark Archive

Jared Ouimette wrote:

In Hawaii, mostly it's just 4th Edition, from what I see at my FLGS. It was really disappointing, really, since now I have to choke down 3 hours of combat and half an hour of RPing if I want to play DND.

If there is a PF or 3.5 game going right now, I can't find it. And I looked really, really hard. I have, however, dicovered other RPGs in lieu (sp?) of DND 4e (which I loathe):

Mouse Guard, Dark Heresy, some crazy game where you play 5 different characters over the course of the game, Warhammer (I suck at it, and therefore hate it, similiar to my unending hatred of Monopoly).

The hate is strong in this one. :) Ok loathe isn't hate but i felt the urge to make this post and bolding more give me more of a excuse to be a smart ass.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Uchawi wrote:

You also have to consider Wizards DDI (online subscription) in the mix, becaues Pathfinder does not offer an equivalent. Therefore, sales at your local game store may not be a direct reflection on the popularity of 4E.

Most people that subscribe to DDI don't bother with the books. But this does play to pathfinders advantage if they support your local retailer.

Yes, but the DDI is paradoxically probably the single biggest obstacle for 3rd party pubs when it comes to 4e. Doesn't matter if your book is the single greatest supplement ever published; if it's not in the DDI, there are a lot of 4e DMs and players who won't even look at it, so why bother to publish for 4e?

Liberty's Edge

Our local gaming store has two book cases (double sided) of role playing games. 1 section contains all non-d20 materials, including GURPS and the old DeadLands. The next section is all d20 compatible materials and their small d20 modern/Star Wars saga edition. The next book case is completely devoted to 4.0 on one side and Pathfinder on the other. The Pathfinder APs seem to move enough that they're never fully stocked, but the 4.0 stuff has some small amounts of dust on it. Not to say books aren't moving, but the pathfinder section is much more clean.

Dark Archive

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Jared Ouimette wrote:

In Hawaii, mostly it's just 4th Edition, from what I see at my FLGS. It was really disappointing, really, since now I have to choke down 3 hours of combat and half an hour of RPing if I want to play DND.

If there is a PF or 3.5 game going right now, I can't find it. And I looked really, really hard. I have, however, dicovered other RPGs in lieu (sp?) of DND 4e (which I loathe):

Mouse Guard, Dark Heresy, some crazy game where you play 5 different characters over the course of the game, Warhammer (I suck at it, and therefore hate it, similiar to my unending hatred of Monopoly).

The hate is strong in this one. :) Ok loathe isn't hate but i felt the urge to make this post and bolding more give me more of a excuse to be a smart ass.

It is obvious you have not experienced the horror that is Monopoly. I used to steal the 500s and put them under the board, and despite my sneakery I still managed to lose. As put by the great Dane Cook: "The only people who like Monopoly are the people who win." HATE!


Around here (south fl), our local game stores have a heavy stock of 4e, and get enough Pathfinder to make sure it sells out. The 4e stuff has not really moved much lately. The owners of both game stores (2d10 games, and cool comic and games) both prefer and support PF, and run their personal games in PF.
I was recently at Necronomicon in Tampa, and over 3 days there were 3 4e games, maybe 10 3.5, and a host of d20 (order of the white star, etc). This was pre PF release, and I am curious to see the lay of the land next year

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Nate Petersen wrote:

C) As a retailer, pretty much from day one (going on three years! woot!) I have had demands for 3e product. I order titles off eBay for regulars all the time, track down what I can, and almost always move titles when I put them on the shelf. Not true for 2e, and not true for 4e; in fact, I have a 4e DMG sitting on my shelf from last February. My supplier JUST started stocking Paizo products, and if they had stocked them earlier I could have sold a dozen copies of the PFRPG; as it was, I ordered several copies at a time from the likes of Paizo and Troll & Toad when they were in stock just so I could put them in my player's hands.

Who is your distributor?

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

These reports are super-helpful and informative, folks. It's very clear that things vary widely depending on region, depth of local organized play support, personal preferences of store managers/owners, and lots of other factors. Since we only really see numbers at the distributor level, it's often difficult to understand what the market really looks like on a local level.

This sort of information is very, very useful.

Please keep it coming!

Dark Archive

To be clear on a point I made earlier. Talking about the lower prices for the 3.0 and 3.5 3 core books. This price drop happened after Pathfinder came out. Before then they was going for cover price as well typically.

I didn't get to the last auction but a couple of my friends went and they comment the Pathfinder beta book sold very well at the auction. They had 3 for sale and they sold in the 20-30 range.

Contributor

The comic-shop / game store at the university close to me, from talking with the owner and one of the people behind the counter that I'm good friends with, things are interesting. Five months ago they had as many people pre-ordering Pathfinder as they did 4e, and more recently from talking to them, they've said that after the initial hype of the 4e core books, sales have dropped through the floor and they have not re-ordered a single 4e title because they can't move the ones that are languishing on the shelves. I've noticed a similar trend elsewhere, in that 4e sold well for its initial core release, but since then the books aren't moving well, and while they have wide exposure in book stores, they're perpetually the same books sitting on the shelves month after month.

The shelves are probably an even mixture of White Wolf, Paizo, and WotC material, and they also have Kobold Quarterly on the shelf as well.

Dark Archive

As the head of a gaming club in the Des Moines area here’s the trend as I have been seeing it. Most of my players jumped completely on the band wagon when 4e came out, including me. We averaged anywhere from two to four tables a week running LFR while the store we played at was having a problem keeping things in stock. Pathfinder was in beta so the majority of my players didn’t want to try PFS because of the uncertainty surrounding it at the time. Now it seems like a complete reverse has taken place. We don’t even run LFR now as we’re unable to get even one table together while Pathfinder is running between two and four depending on the module.

As for the store, I was able to purchase a copy of the 4e DMG II during their Black Friday sale for only $12. They had several copies along with other 4e overstock they were trying to clear out because they aren’t selling it like before. I went in last weekend and they still have 4e stuff in the clearance section that isn’t moving. Other observations at the store are that the Pathfinder section is growing (almost the same size as 4e) and the number of 4e books initially ordered has dropped to only a couple at a time. Pathfinder sells out because they only stock about two or three copies at most which means a lot of stuff gets back ordered.

Since both Pathfinder and PFS are still young I expect these trends to only improve.


I was at my FLGS earlier this month, and he KNOWS that I don't like 4th edition, he knows that I'm a Pathfinder junkie (I've gotten both the core books, the GM screen, and the Critical Hit and Fumble decks, and bother him almost weekly giving him updates on what the website says about new Paizo releases). Still, because of how 4th has been selling, he tried to convince me to buy the giftbox of the 4th edition core books AND the holiday giftbox of the PHB and PHB II. He said that he thought that the holiday PHB giftbox from this holiday was a reaction of WotC to the sales that Pathfinder was getting and the drop in 4th edition sales (just his speculation). He has been really trying to sell those giftboxes, and no one is taking him up on it. He even went so far as to offer me a set that had had the cellophane already accidentally removed for $10 less.

This is in contrast to the fact that he can't seem to keep the Pathfinder core rulebook on the shelf. He'll order a couple copies, and they'll be gone by the end of the week.

I can say with at least some certainty that he isn't biased one way or the other in regards to D&D/Pathfinder, as he plays Shadowrun or Earthdawn, so his reckoning of the local market is probably pretty solid. If he were to carry the AP's, Chronicles, and Companion lines, I bet his pathfinder sales would go through the roof. As it is, he just offers the core stuff and a few AP or Chronicles books (but not complete APs).

What I find funny is that the 3.x and Pathfinder guys around here have totally given up on the edition war, but the 4th edition guys don't seem to realize that the war is over.

I will echo something else I read in this thread: I'm definitely seeing a sizable chunk of the younger gamers shifting over to Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader.


Since 4E dropped, I haven't gone to my local retail shop as much, preferring instead to go the Half Price Books route. I have two stores within driving distance from me. For the last 3 months, it has been impossible to find any worthwhile 3.x material at either store, and the last time I was in one, it had a 4E players handbook on the shelf. I'm going back in a few days, so I'll check and see if it's there.

Edit: I thought I should add that I'm in my late 30's (As is the rest of my group.) and I live in the nw suburbs of Chicago. I don't personally know of any gaming groups that switched over to 4E, as I generally game with people my age. However, my niece and her fiance live in the Washington DC metropolitan area, and they play 4E with their friends. Their reasoning was they had gotten to the 3.x party a little late, but they could jump on 4E and build from there. I'll do my dutiful best to introduce them to Pathfinder, don't you worry.

Sovereign Court

Just a few observations about what seems to be happening in England and Scotland.

Initially, 4e sold very well through specialist game shops, mainly to a targeted younger audience and die-hard collectors. There was also a major split between traditionalists (who looked forward to PF being released) and the "must-have-it-now" brigade who immediately jumped onto 4e. The latter characteristicly dumped one for the other, especially as many LFGS owners started to accept 3.5 items as trade-ins on 4e for future resale.

So, I found that I could buy up tons of 3.5 stuff for reasonable or even bargain prices right throughout 2008 and 2009. Then two things seem to happen: the credit crunch and the release of the PF playtest. A number of my LFGSs went under, and others pulled back on stock.

What's interesting now is that 4e seems to be sitting on shelves, while PF hardbacks tend to go quickly and require restocking. The Pathfinder modules however rose horribly in price due to the worsening exchange rate from about £10 when Rise was released up to £15 each by the time of Thieves, and from what shop staff say definitely only now sell to "those already in the know". You can also pay £12 for a new relase PF module or background book, well too expensive to break the market here.

Consequently, older PF paperback stuff now seems to be moving into sales and bargin bins across the land. This should worry PF publishers, as it encourages people like me in their core audience to wait until prices drop off considerably rather than buy straight away. So, as an example, on Saturday I bought The Pazio Treasure Chest for £7, a copy of PF23 for £7, a module for £2 and the Combat Tracker for £4. That's £21. Full prices before Christmas were a total of £62.

Sales through bookshops however are negligible. Bookshop stock over here is very different to that in the US or Canada, and game books have never really been heavily stocked due to distribution issues. Ergo, I've never seem PF in a bookshop.


I work at my town's FLGS here in the UK, and 4E didn't even start. The local players are all fans of 3.5 and hated what they saw of 4E (I don't blame them to be fair) so they never touched it. Even gamers who came in from out of town had no interest in the game. We've sold through all the 3.5 material we had and the 4E shifts only when taken to conventions.

Pathfinder has only recently been looked at by our customers but it seems to be meeting approval. Some where concerned by the power creep in the beta previews and it has taken them this long to actually look at the product but now they have it is selling well.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

To be honest, I wish I had a better answer... but as far as I know we really don't have a FLGS. And I live in metro Atlanta. All the gaming stores in the northeast area of the city have just disappeared in the past few years, the War Room and Titan Gaming and Comics being the two biggies. We recently went to a store in Knoxville that was running PFS for the weekend and there seemed to be some LFR going on, however there didn't seem to be too many playing. Also there was another RPG, Witchunter, going on. Mostly it was Magic being played though.

If anyone knows of a good way to find a FLGS in Atlanta... please do tell, as we've been in desperate need of one for a while.


Mark Simmons 519 wrote:
Sales through bookshops however are negligible. Bookshop stock over here is very different to that in the US or Canada, and game books have never really been heavily stocked due to distribution issues. Ergo, I've never seem PF in a bookshop.

I've never seen Pathfinder stuff in a bookshop in Canada, either.

Liberty's Edge

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Cpt_kirstov wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
Well I know that 4e stuff is starting to show a up at some of the area Half Price Books. The real bummer is that the 3.x stuff is actually getting more expensive. I'm seeing 3.x material selling at Half Price Books for well over cover price!
The store I work for sold a used 3.5 PHB for $50 last week - it only lasted 3 days on the shelf

Huh those are the only books i don't see selling really well. There is a local gaming auction 3-4 times a year here. Typically the PHB, MM and DMG 3.0 sell for 10 bucks or less each and the 3.5 for not much more. The rest of the splat books and the like typically sell for cover price or near to it or just over. Which considering the auction is a big deal, the store owner and auctionier often jokes he couldn't sell a 20 dollar bill for 10 dollars at the auction.

The 4e books at the auction sold for about 10-15 per hard back and the adventures for about 5 each. Which use to be the normal price for 3e books when it was still in print.

It's because there's no dice!

(Old joke from our local convention auctions. Every time a game came up in a box, most of the crowd would yell "Is there dice with it?" and that would shoot the bidding up.)


I think this the best time to be a D&D gamer- Pathfinder and 4th edition. Why can't both games sit side by side? What I find sad is that most of the people on this thread are happy that 4th edition is supposedly not doing well.

For an analogy it's the like the old days of AD&D and the red box! AD&D is Pathfinder and the red box is 4th edition- one more complicated and one easier, but both deserving of merit!

I am loving all the products coming out- 3rd party included.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It comes down to (for me at least) a deep anger at WoTC over many of their recent actions as well as the direction they took with 4E.

Begin Rant:

Spoiler:

I did not appreciate being told that the 3.x system was horrible in order to promote 4E.

I did not appreciate them pulling all PDF's suggesting that was the source of the piracy.

I did not appreciate the, in my opinion, unnecessary simplifying of the system.

I did not appreciate them killing Dragon.

I did not appreciate them killing Dungeon.

I did not appreciate them killing the OGL.

I do not appreciate Hasbro having control over the D&D name.

I do not like lizards with breasts.

I do not want to play a "striker".

I do *not* want heroic surges (or whatever they are called).

I do *not* want my fighter to have powers.

Anyway, so that's my mini rant. I think the thinking also is that if, hypothetically, 4E just freaking destroyed the market, and 95% of people were playing it, those of us who prefer the 3.x generation fear that no new products would be released for our preferred system. In order to not have the fear of our preferred rules generation dying, we would like to think our preferred system is at least nearly at parity with the other popular systems, thereby reassuring us we are good for a long time to come.

Also, there's a bit of "haha they're suffering now! they never should have did 4E!!!"

And no, in general, for me, I am not happy the kids are playing 4E. I'd much rather they be playing 3.x. I fear that getting started with 4E will drastically skew their idea of what this game can be. As it is I have players of the younger generation who already have almost no attention span or patience.

Grand Lodge

I don't hate 4e. I don't really care for the way that Hasbro has run WOTC, but that doesn't even bring up much ire with me anymore. I get what I want from Paizo and Kobold. (But I wish I got Kobold monthly, it's getting really good.)

In my neck of the woods 4e is doing well in my FLGS and since it brings my FLGS money that makes me happy. They lost a chunk of my change when I got subscriptions. I try and make it up to them with buying board and card games and graphic novels. (love me some Hellboy)


nick pater wrote:
I think this the best time to be a D&D gamer- Pathfinder and 4th edition. Why can't both games sit side by side? What I find sad is that most of the people on this thread are happy that 4th edition is supposedly not doing well.

I am semi-anti 4E. The reason being that it is NOT D&D. The game is too big a departure from the game line and is purely a miniatures based combat game (I have friends who do play it and even they say it is just that). WotC/Hasbro really did not need to kill off 3.5 not when there was so much left they could do with the line.

All of which is why I am so pleased that Paizo decided to keep the game alive with Pathfinder.

Grand Lodge

Nick, keep in mind that this is the Paizo website so many of us are pro-Paizo -- if it were a neutral site there would likely be less implied pleasure that the WotC game is collecting a little dust. Also, it's good to hear that the publisher one supports is doing well.

Nonetheless, you have a good point and quite a few posters have strongly said that it's healthy for gaming that both the WotC game and Pathfinder D&D do well.

From my perspective, though, I don't like them side by side. Since I only have time for one session a week (so I couldn't play both), and because I move to a new city seemingly every 1-3 years and have to start finding (or starting) new gaming groups -- the less I have to compete with the WotC game the better.

It can be very difficult to find a group of gamers. If Pathfinder D&D and the WotC game are side by side then when one does finally find a group it's still only a 50/50 chance that they play Pathfinder D&D.

Now, if we had a roaring economy -- if D&D were as popular as sports or poker, it'd be different.

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