A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.
What constitutes a normal, unmodified animal?
It seems to me that what this text is referring to, what it means, is that I could not have an animal companion, paladin mount, or a templated creature (such as an advanced animal) as a familiar. Is that right?
If that is the case, then could my familiar have an alternate set of feats and skills? After all, if I found a hawk that was clumsy, but exceptionally perceptive for its kind, I doubt anyone would argue that it wasn't a normal hawk. Even if they did, the text specifically says "...skills and feats of the normal animal it once was." If I make this variant hawk into my familiar, it's skills and feats don't suddenly change to the default array for hawks. Said hawk would otherwise still be considered a "normal, unmodified" animal, since the above rule is referring to things like templates, right?
I don't think anyone would argue against a small variation in animals as that is only natural (not every living creature is going to be an exact clone), but what I want to know is if these small variations can be applied to familiars specifically.
In other words, is there anything at all in the rules keeping my imp familiar from having ranks in Use Magic Device, or my hawk being exceptionally aware of danger due to having switched out Weapon Finesse for Skill Focus: Perception?
Also note that the above-quoted text is explicit on several points (such as BAB, HD, base saves, etc.) but does not specifically state that a familiar will necessarily have the normal array of ability scores. The only thing set in stone seems to be Intelligence due to the familiar abilities table. Is there anything keeping familiars from having as diverse an array of ability scores as other PCs and NPCs? Could my hawk be slightly less agile (a lower Dexterity), but more aware of his surroundings (a higher Wisdom)? Following my initial interpretation of what constitutes "normal" I see nothing preventing these kinds of small variations.
I am very curious to know what the official intent/meaning behind what constitutes a "normal, unmodified animal."
It is fair to assume a familiar is a typical specimen, if it was to be different it would have been noted.
Your imp gets to use your skillranks like any familiar though, so if you take use magic device it would be able to use that, I think that method all-in-all is a fair resolution and will make a familiar like an imp very useful. You can enhance your imp with spells after you get it, some relatively minor items could be used very effectively by your imp.
You will have to discuss with the dm what is fair to swap, I'd allow very minor swaps judged against game effect.
A normal, unmodified base is just that; unmodified, straight out of the book.
Making a minor clumsiness adjustment (a fluff change) sounds fine...but the trouble is, once you open up changes to the base skills or feats, you introduce an opportunity for a power edge.
For example, you might not ever let your hawk familiar into combat - because, despite being slightly better in melee than you'd think, and familiar death no longer quite so bad, do you really want it dying all the time? At that point, Focus (Perception) is quite a tasty choice for an intelligent high-flying raptor you can communicate with. Instead of a vulnerable combatant, you now have a really excellent scout. That isn't the most potent trade possible, but it's still distinctly advantageous to the caster.
On a separate note, re your parallel thread: the rules on familiar hit dice and skill/feat advancement take a few reads to get clear, but they are clear. A familiar gets pseudo-hit dice. This makes it quite different from an animal companion or paladin's mount. On the plus side, it means the familiar gets to use its master's skills, attack, saves and level for DC purposes - a big plus if you've got UMD and a familiar with hands, or a familiar with an Ex, Su or Spell-Like ability that gives a save, and an advantage of sorts if you have a good base attack. On the debit side, it means the familiar doesn't gain the advantages of hit dice advancement as an animal companion does - no new personal skills, feats, ability additions, or attack bonusses.
In 3.5 you had familiars and psicrystals using this advancement system, while animal companions and mounts used the companion system. In flavour terms, the familiar bond is closer - it's almost a part of its master.
The only grey area is re familiars with no by-the-book starting stats. I haven't checked, but I think some of the Witch familiar options fall into this category; and if a witch can have a goat familiar, I don't see why a wizard or sorcerer shouldn't either. In that case, there needs to be DM adjudication of the creature's basic feats and skills etc, and the starting bonus for the caster (eg +3 hp, +2 skill). That aside, the rules as is are fairly robust. You could talk to your DM, see if a fluff change is okay, but in the long run it'd be best not to maneuever too much of a mechnical advantage out of it.
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It means you can't modify it in any way. That means:
Creative Director
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I am very curious to know what the official intent/meaning behind what constitutes a "normal, unmodified animal."
It sounds like you're over-analyzing things. A "normal, unmodified animal" is an animal that's taken from the bestairy's three pages of Familiars. Simple enough. No templates, no changes to stats, nothing like that.
Once that animal becomes your familiar, you get to start changing things as you want. But what you start with has to be an animal from the familiar pages in the Bestiary.
I am very curious to know what the official intent/meaning behind what constitutes a "normal, unmodified animal."It sounds like you're over-analyzing things. A "normal, unmodified animal" is an animal that's taken from the bestairy's three pages of Familiars. Simple enough. No templates, no changes to stats, nothing like that.
Once that animal becomes your familiar, you get to start changing things as you want. But what you start with has to be an animal from the familiar pages in the Bestiary.
What do you mean by this exactly? Aside from giving the familiar gear of its own, I don't see how you can change it AFTER it becomes your familiar. It doesn't even really level up or anything except for what is outlined in the familiar table (which, if true, rules out any possible feats or skill additions).
Are you saying, perhaps, that familiars actually gain hit dice (and all the things that come with it such as skill ranks, feats, and ability core increases)?
So James, can I switch out a familiar's starting general feat and/or skill ranks or not? Your reply remains somewhat vague on this specific issue once it becomes my familiar.
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So James, can I switch out a familiar's starting general feat and/or skill ranks or not? Your reply remains somewhat vague on this specific issue once it becomes my familiar.
Dude, you're being deliberately obtuse. James said:
That's not vague at all.
Yes, James said you can "change things as you want," but that's in the context of the rules for familiars, which say when you get additional skill ranks and feats.
You can't change your PC's feats and skill ranks every time you level up, why would you be able to do that with a familiar when it doesn't explicitly say you can?
It's an additive process, not a rebuilding process.
The familiars listed in the Bestiary all have weapon finesse.
However the core rule book states that familiars use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, when using melee natural weapons. My familiar isn't going to be wielding a dagger or a rapier, so weapon finesse is useless.
Isn't it reasonable to take a different feat instead of weapon finesse?
Size tiny creatures get weapon finnesse as a free feat, so it wouldn't be possible to change that out regardless?
Size tiny creatures get weapon finnesse as a free feat
Where is this stated? I'm having no luck tracking it down.
However the core rule book states that familiars use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, when using melee natural weapons. My familiar isn't going to be wielding a dagger or a rapier, so weapon finesse is useless.
Huh? Weapon Finesse works with all light weapons, natural weapons are considered light weapons. It says so right in the Weapon Finesse feat.
However the core rule book states that familiars use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, when using melee natural weapons. My familiar isn't going to be wielding a dagger or a rapier, so weapon finesse is useless.Huh? Weapon Finesse works with all light weapons, natural weapons are considered light weapons. It says so right in the Weapon Finesse feat.
Well take for example the greensting scoprion. It has weapon finesse and no other feats. Meaning it basically is "doubling up" on the ability to use dex for natural weapons.
Size Tiny creatures use their Dexterity instead of Strength for Combat Maneuver Bonus. Might that be what you're thinking of?
It replicates the benefits of ... Agile-something, I believe, although it doesn't actually grant it as a virtual feat. Can't even use it for prereqs.
Hmmm. What about familiars delivering a touch attack for you? Just because it uses Dex or Str for melee natural attacks, I'm not sure that the same benefit applies to the familiar trying to deliver a Shocking Grasp.
Well take for example the greensting scoprion. It has weapon finesse and no other feats. Meaning it basically is "doubling up" on the ability to use dex for natural weapons.However the core rule book states that familiars use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, when using melee natural weapons. My familiar isn't going to be wielding a dagger or a rapier, so weapon finesse is useless.Huh? Weapon Finesse works with all light weapons, natural weapons are considered light weapons. It says so right in the Weapon Finesse feat.
I've always taken the text "Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater..." as a reminder to use the master's BAB and familiar's modifier when calculating attack bonus; not as actually granting it an ability.
Well take for example the greensting scoprion. It has weapon finesse and no other feats. Meaning it basically is "doubling up" on the ability to use dex for natural weapons.However the core rule book states that familiars use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, when using melee natural weapons. My familiar isn't going to be wielding a dagger or a rapier, so weapon finesse is useless.Huh? Weapon Finesse works with all light weapons, natural weapons are considered light weapons. It says so right in the Weapon Finesse feat.
Scorpions are vermin and don't gain feats because of that. finesse on their entry would be because of their size. So not a double-up, just the actual mechanics in play?
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So weapon finesse is a worthless feat for familiars.
Weapon Finesse might be redundant for a familiar, but so is the Int score of 2, which is made redundant by the new Int score of 6+ it gains as a familiar.
Weapon finesse, like the Int score of 2, is something relevant and important to the 'standard normal animal' before it got selected to be a familiar, and the familiar-ization process doesn't swap out the feat it had as a normal animal with something that the owner would prefer for it to have.
From the example given for horses, yes a specialist cat breeder can breed cats with a different feat - but they will know that it will be wrth a lot, given how rich wizards are. (See your GM for the cost and availability)
The cats in question would probably have a bad time in catching rats before they get zapped into familiars.
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Creative Director
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Yes, James said you can "change things as you want," but that's in the context of the rules for familiars, which say when you get additional skill ranks and feats.You can't change your PC's feats and skill ranks every time you level up, why would you be able to do that with a familiar when it doesn't explicitly say you can?
It's an additive process, not a rebuilding process.
James has previously stated in another thread rather contradictory information, stating:
Feats are ALWAYS swap outable. You should be able to buy "specialty" horses with unusual feats anyway; maybe one with Toughness and Lightning Reflexes. Swapping out the feats is a cool way to model different horse breeds, in fact.
It's not contradictory at all, really.
For a player, the feats are what they are when you get your pet.
For a GM, the feats of ANY creature, including animals, can be adjusted as you wish.
If a GM wants to allow a player to adjust and change an animal's baseline feats and skills, that's fine. The player just needs permission from his or her GM to do so.
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Creative Director
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Except your reply was in direct response to someone asking if a PLAYER could swap feats for THEIR animals.
Tried writing several responses to this, and all of them were needlessly snarky and retributive.
Take my advice in this thread however you want. I don't care HOW you use it as long as you have fun with it. Be that ignoring it or embracing it.
If all you want to do is be pedantic and try to catch me contradicting myself over the course of several weeks or months... if that's entertainment for you, I'm glad I can help.
I think perhaps you all misunderstood me.
James said...
Once that animal becomes your familiar, you get to start changing things as you want.
I was asking if I could switch out the feats and skills as part of the process of making the animal my familiar.
Before I was asking if I could take a clumsy, but perceptive eagle, and make it into my familiar.
Now I am asking if I could take a normal unmodified eagle, and make it into my clumsy, but perceptive, familiar.
Totally different question.
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Creative Director
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Now I am asking if I could take a normal unmodified eagle, and make it into my clumsy, but perceptive, familiar.
Since a familiar is part of your character, and you get to decide what choices are made in your entire character's build... why wouldn't you be able to do this?
It seems to me like asking, "Can I make a smart fighter?" The answer is yes. And I'm not sure why you'd need to ask the question in the first place—I would think the answer is obvious.
It means you can't modify it in any way. That means:
No spoilers on the tail
No custom paint jobs or decals
No drilled exhaust pipes
No nitro injection.
Not even one NISMO sticker? - Familiars are so broken :(
Now I am asking if I could take a normal unmodified eagle, and make it into my clumsy, but perceptive, familiar.
Since a familiar is part of your character, and you get to decide what choices are made in your entire character's build... why wouldn't you be able to do this?
It seems to me like asking, "Can I make a smart fighter?" The answer is yes.
Sure I can add skill ranks to a familiar by adding them to myself, but what about feats? It seems there is no option for something like that.
This seems bizarre to me, as a GM could throw a clumsy but perceptive eagle at the party, but I can't get a clumsy, but perceptive eagle familiar (even though they obviously exist if one were to look for them).
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Now I am asking if I could take a normal unmodified eagle, and make it into my clumsy, but perceptive, familiar.
Since a familiar is part of your character, and you get to decide what choices are made in your entire character's build... why wouldn't you be able to do this?
It seems to me like asking, "Can I make a smart fighter?" The answer is yes.
Sure I can add skill ranks to a familiar by adding them to myself, but what about feats? It seems there is no option for something like that.
This seems bizarre to me, as a GM could throw a clumsy but perceptive eagle at the party, but I can't get a clumsy, but perceptive eagle familiar (even though they obviously exist if one were to look for them).
The REAL question is, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen clumsy perceptive eagle?
This seems bizarre to me, as a GM could throw a clumsy but perceptive eagle at the party, but I can't get a clumsy, but perceptive eagle familiar (even though they obviously exist if one were to look for them).
Well James just said you could.
You get the familiar and go nuts, if you want the fluff that it was clumsy but perceptive go right ahead.
If you don't care about fluff, just build it how you want and ignore the whole 'finding Nemo' story you seem fixed on..
With your GM's ok.
The REAL question is, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen clumsy perceptive eagle?
Nemo...I mean the Eagles speed would depend on how fast he could flap his 'Lucky Fin'...I mean, 'Special Wing'...
I let my players swap animals feats out at character creation. I just assumed that was kosher with the rules, though I never considered it might not be RAW. It makes perfect sense for a familiar for the reason that an animal companion with an Int of 3 or more can take ANY feat it qualifies for and can use. A familiar has a starting Int of what, 6? Go for it, IMO.
So I guess I'm in the camp of "why couldn't you?"
I will admit that James's initial reply threw me off at first. Made me question my own opinion.
This seems bizarre to me, as a GM could throw a clumsy but perceptive eagle at the party, but I can't get a clumsy, but perceptive eagle familiar (even though they obviously exist if one were to look for them).
Yes, a GM could throw a clumsy but perceptive eagle at you.
Would that be a `normal unmodified straight from Bestiary eagle`? (no)Probably why you felt compelled to put a bunch of differentiating adjectives in front of `eagle`.
SO... While the GM can throw anything at you, nobody can expect Class Features to do anything besides what they say, namely giving you Familiars based on `normal un-modified (straight from Bestiary) creatures`. ...Do you whine and pester your GM like this in real life, or is this just an internet thing?
It means you can't modify it in any way. That means:
No spoilers on the tail
No custom paint jobs or decals
No drilled exhaust pipes
No nitro injection.
But....but....da shaman sed if I paint it red it gose FASTAH!
I have to agree it is pretty clear both RAW and RAI just what normal unmodified means here.
...Do you whine and pester your GM like this in real life, or is this just an internet thing?
Nah, it's just an internet thing. My GM typically agrees with me on most matters so there is rarely any need to pester and whine.
But....but....da shaman sed if I paint it red it gose FASTAH!
I know, right? hoz da little birdy gonna get ta da fight in time to peck out pink skin eyes.
...Do you whine and pester your GM like this in real life, or is this just an internet thing?Nah, it's just an internet thing.
My GM typically agrees with me on most matters so there is rarely any need to pester and whine.
Well... Good, I guess. 8-D
The Weapon Finesse feat come from the fact that the animal is tiny... So I think you can't swap it or you have to make the animal small for that... Like one of this cat ;)
As a dm I will let a player change some feat but not the weapon finesse one since it come from the size of the animal... :)
Oh and yes I will surely let a player change some charcteristics if he want to, but this is a houserule, raw you take the animal straight of the book...
I think what James wanted to say is : a DM should be free to change some feat on an animal if their players ask them to. For example if one of my player want to buy a "very fast horse" and really look for one (insert roleplay here) then I would surely give him a horse with the run feat or something similar...
I don't believe that anybody has supplied evidence that all Tiny- creatures get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
Looking through the Bestiary, the VAST majority of Tiny- (non-Swarm) creatures that I've seen so far do have it -- the only creature I've seen without it is the Toad (Edit: And Homonculus). But until I see text saying that they all get it as a rule, I'm assuming it's just a logical feat for little critters, particularly those with a limited feat selection. Combined with the fact that Tiny creatures use their Dex for CMB instead of Strength, which seems easy to confuse.
Since a familiar is part of your character, and you get to decide what choices are made in your entire character's build... why wouldn't you be able to do this? .
I don't want to be too finigity, but that's not actually in the rules. It's actually opposite to the rules which say you get what's on the animals list of feats.
"It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was"
I myself would rule that only an out-of-Bestiary creature is capable of being a Druid's animal companion; and while I am (mildly) a fan of rebuilding rules, I would rule that an animal's pre-companion statistics are just like prerequisites for having become an animal companion in the first place. Just as how I wouldn't allow a Fighter to exchange his Expertise feat when he had used it to qualify for Duelist, neither would I allow a companion rebuild that would have altered the base animal such that it couldn't qualify for becoming a familiar.
I feel that's consistent. Additionally, animal companions already have a lot of flexibility and power behind them; switching Weapon Finesse or Skill Focus: Perception for feats like Outflank seem like they'd add 1% to that overall power creep, such that a game doesn't resemble itself a year later.
Since weapon finesse is a racial bonus feat for the animals (regardless of if it's due to being tiny or not), I wouldn't allow them to swap it. Skill points maybe.
However, shouldn't vermin familiars such as the greensting scorpion get a feat and skill points when they become familiars? The reason they don't have any skills or feats is because they don't have an intelligence rating. As familiars, they become 1hd creatures with an intelligence rating and as such should have skill points and a feat.
However, shouldn't vermin familiars such as the greensting scorpion get a feat and skill points when they become familiars? The reason they don't have any skills or feats is because they don't have an intelligence rating. As familiars, they become 1hd creatures with an intelligence rating and as such should have skill points and a feat.
But only due to the familiar bond, at which point they gain access to the casters skills. The familiar bond is one of those exceptions to the normal rules and it is spelled out what they gain. I'd be comfortable calling that one hit die the same as the rest of the "quasi" hit die the familiar gets from the bond as it isn't called out that they do get them. It is only around as long as the bond exists and if you were to allow the selection of the feat and skill points, you open up the possibility of dumping familiars to get a new familiar with new feats and skills as situation dictates.
Since a familiar is part of your character, and you get to decide what choices are made in your entire character's build... why wouldn't you be able to do this? .
I don't want to be too finigity, but that's not actually in the rules. It's actually opposite to the rules which say you get what's on the animals list of feats.
"It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was"
Wouldn't that passage mean that if I had found a clumsy perceptive eagle, and I made it into a familiar, it would still be a clumsy perceptive eagle?
I removed a post. Personal attacks are unnecessary.