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So I'm having dinner with my brother talking about how I enjoy playing my Fighter, Kharn the Butcher, much more than my Summoner. My brother says, "Jason, playing a Fighter is beneath you." S!$$. He's right.
The Fighter has come a long way from 3.5 with the addition of Weapon and Armor Training and better feats as well as great Fighter-only trees. But lets have us a little thought experiment, shall we? Lets say that class features are given a point value and lets say that some of the fighters features (bonus feats, weapon training, armor training, full BAB) add up to 50 points. The Eidolon has to be worth nearly that much right? Throw in the Summon Monster SLA's and you have to have gotten to 50 points right? That means that a class with a bunch of decent buffs, full BAB and most of the Fighters class features could conceivably be a base class. So why would you ever play a Fighter (other than flavor)?
I know blind adherence to game balance isn't good. You just end up with 4th Edition and if I was playing that I wouldn't be here. But something needs to be done, right? So what do we think? My best guess is that the Fighter needs special attacks which in one way or another mimic the effect that spell might have. Allow him to buff himself with a special attack or debuff an opponent with another. Kind of like Rogue Talents or the additional Rage effects for Barbarians.
I really want to play a melee basher. I just don't want it to be beneath me...
Well, I gotta put it this way: the goal of game is to have fun. So, you were having fun yes? Mission accomplished no?
To this day I ramble on about a war forged barbarian I played at a D&D game day at my store; I hate 4e with a passion, but it sells and Wizards hooks me up with game day kits, so I can't complain. But this one barbarian was an absolute HOOT to play. Can't explain it, I'm a ranger player myself, or oddly spec'd rogues. But man was he fun.
"SQUEAKS NO LIKE TEDDY BEAR!! STOP HUGGING SQUEAKS STUPID TEDDY BEAR!" I got to bellow at the dire bear grappling me. Tell me that's not fun.
Odd point being: Nothing is beneath you if you're enjoying it. Could be a build. Could be a group. Could be the simple fact you get to say absurd things in-character. Whatever. Just have fun ^_^
lol, stop complaining if you want to play a fighter have fun and play a fighter, they are quite awesome really.
Fighters do not depend on flashy abilities but they are always useful and from round 1 too, use feats well and play smart, that is all there is to it.
-> Dismissal, a spell that will start showing up on NPC enemy spell casters to counter the Eidolon at 7th to 9th level (sooner by pushing scroll use). If one succeeds the Eidolon/Summoner is done for the day more or less.
I don't know, the crit-mastery based fighter with focus in TWF Kukri seems like quite the scary special move man you're looking for. While such a fighter won't work on crit-immune monster (the very few types that are left), almost every special power-based has some situation they can't address with their most power abilities.
One area where a Fighter can really outstrip most other classes is personal defense. Armor Training and the use of a Tower Shield, a Fighter can rather quickly obtain a reliably high AC. Full Plate + Dex 18 + Defensive fighting options. A fighter can even go so far as to learn to craft his own magical weapons and armor, thus insuring he'll always be a the top of magic item arms race.
Which brings me to kind of the last point in the Pathfinder Fighter's favor. given the new crafting system you could always build yourself fun magical weapons to give you extra powers. And with all of those feats, Fighters really do have space pick up those options without impairing what they do best.
A fighter optimized for combat deals more damage than any other class (except paladins against evil outsiders and rangers against favored enemy). If you want to be able to do more "cool" stuff or have some out of combat usefulness, just take a non-combat feat or three.
In-combat they are the masters, without doubt. Fighters don't suffer from a lack of power, they suffer from a lack of versatility, especially out of combat. However, because they are so good in combat, they can take away a liiittle of that power to become much more efficient out of combat. Giv'em an int of 14 and put his favored class points towards skill ranks - suddenly he gains 5 skill points per level, 6 if he's a human.
The fighter in 3,5 was weak and with very few options.
The fighter in Pathfinder is strong and (again) with very few options.
He needs to be able to do more things, and have more choices in a combat.
Now I don't mean that he should jump 100 ft in air while he is surrounded by an aura of energy and hit the ground causing a shockwave.
What I have in mind is things like combat expertise, maybe including the swift/immediate action economy.
For example a feat that allows him to withdraw his attention from the battle and turn it inwards, sacrificing an immediate action to gain a bonus in WILL equal to the penalty in his BAB (see resolute in complete champion).
Or another one that allows him to feint as a swift action, roll his BAB against his opponents BAB and if he succeeds, his opponent is flat footed for the next ONE attack the fighter makes.
Other feats that allow him to parry (worse than a duelist) or use combat expertise as an immediate action shouldn't be too far fetched for the fighter.
Little things like that will make combat much more interesting for the player.
All that said I could play a fighter right now and have a blast.
It just gets kinda boring after some sessions.
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While I'm in the "no wuxia shizzle, please" camp regarding the Fighter, I would welcome more love for the sword'n'broad types and feats that help to overcome the biggest weaknesses of Fighter - low Will save and mobility.
Perhaps something like this:
Battle Hardened
Having fought many foes, you develop an uncanny resistance to harmful effrects.
Prerequisite
Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Fighter lvl 5th
Benefits
Once per day per five Fighter levels, you may reroll any save. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse. You may only reroll a save once, regardless of any other feats/spells/abilities/effects.
While I'm in the "no wuxia shizzle, please" camp regarding the Fighter, I would welcome more love for the sword'n'broad types and feats that help to overcome the biggest weaknesses of Fighter - low Will save and mobility.
Perhaps something like this:
Battle Hardened
Having fought many foes, you develop an uncanny resistance to harmful effrects.
Prerequisite
Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Fighter lvl 5th
Benefits
Once per day per five Fighter levels, you may reroll any save. You must decide to use this ability before the results are revealed. You must take the second roll, even if it is worse. You may only reroll a save once, regardless of any other feats/spells/abilities/effects.
There already is the improved Iron Will, Reflexes and Fortitude. No need to create something like this.
There already is the improved Iron Will, Reflexes and Fortitude. No need to create something like this.
You'd need to spend 3 feats to cover them all. Had they all three been one feat they'd be quite good, now they suck.
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Ok,I want to reiterate that there are reasons not related to the mechanics of this game to play a Fighter. I have no negative anything for people who play one because they want to. I'm one of those people. But casting adds dimension to a character and allows him to do cool stuff. That's why anyone you ask to rank the classes puts casters at the top.
What I'm looking for here are ideas for how a Fighter can be brought up to par with some of the casting classes. A fighter can do good amounts of damage and have a high AC but with buffs a Cleric will do the same thing better and have better saves doing it. An Oracle with the Battle focus will probably do likewise. This is what I'm talking about. No class in the game should be better at hitting dudes with heavy stuff than the fighter. Right now there are several. Am I the only person who thinks that is wrong?
Just for the record, NOTHING hits harder than the fighter. Except the Pally against Evil outsiders/dragons/undead.
I'm not sure what you are looking for mate, really don't. The fighter is a simple class, and he should be, there should be no "special" effects for the fighter, unless he is multiclassed or something.
What I'm looking for here are ideas for how a Fighter can be brought up to par with some of the casting classes. A fighter can do good amounts of damage and have a high AC but with buffs a Cleric will do the same thing better and have better saves doing it. An Oracle with the Battle focus will probably do likewise. This is what I'm talking about. No class in the game should be better at hitting dudes with heavy stuff than the fighter. Right now there are several. Am I the only person who thinks that is wrong?
There is a thread dedicated to this called the DPR Olympics, check it out. From what I've seen, fighter is the no doubt best damage dealer in the game, while still having a high armor class. There was an optimized ranged fighter a while back who could kill a Balor in one round one-on-one (no party cleric buffing), if I remember correctly. Paladin and Ranger can top him in their respective field (paladin against evil dragon, ranger against favored enemy). Most other classes can do comparable damage under the right circumstances.
Just for the record, NOTHING hits harder than the fighter. Except the Pally against Evil outsiders/dragons/undead.
Didn't the ranger top him against favored enemies to? Have a faint memory of that, but not overly sure.
You'd need to spend 3 feats to cover them all. Had they all three been one feat they'd be quite good, now they suck.There already is the improved Iron Will, Reflexes and Fortitude. No need to create something like this.
I don't see how they SUCK. Nor why the fighter deserves this more than anyone else. And I'm a fighter guy.
Just for the record, NOTHING hits harder than the fighter. Except the Pally against Evil outsiders/dragons/undead.Didn't the ranger top him against favored enemies to? Have a faint memory of that, but not overly sure.
Only at 20th, and still it was a dificult one, cause of the multiplier of the fighter weapon mastery ability.
John John, I think you are on to something there. The problem is, if you go too far, you end up with something like the warblade from Book of Nine Swords (which was better than any 3.5 fighter could ever be). It just needs to be something that makes sense for the fighter flavor, that doesn't take away from someone that specializes in area.
The question is, why should the fighter be the only one who essentially gets to use combat based feats as a swift action? Even occasionally. Looking at your examples of combat expertise and improved feint, a rogue would kill for that ability.
The fighter definitely needs something in the swift/immediate action area.
I agree, the warblade is certainly not what I have in mind.
And yes the fighter shouldn't be the only one to have access to these feats.
But the said feats can be constructed in a way that benefit the fighter more than anybody else. 1-2 prerequisites and based upon BAB, make them hard for feat starved full BAB classes to get and not so usefull for non full BAB classes.
Regarding the rogue for example, do note that he would have to win in a contested BAB roll, which is pretty unlikely.
Contested Base attack is odd in the new system. It would be a CMB vs CMD.
I personally think barbarians need a lot more love than fighters, preferably in the form of some kick-ass rage powers.
I personally think barbarians need a lot more love than fighters, preferably in the form of some kick-ass rage powers.
Agreed.
Just for the record, NOTHING hits harder than the fighter. Except the Pally against Evil outsiders/dragons/undead.Or the ranger against his favored enemies. Or a pouncing druid. Or a paladin smiting anyone, really.
So, yeah. Being better at doing damage isn't a class concept when doing damage is the least efficient way to defeat enemies from level 1 on, and when every single other class in the game gets at least one other secondary schtick that isn't "hit people."
The fighter isn't a simple class, really, because you have to choose from a large pool of abilities and pick out the ones that enhance the one strategy that you'll be using for 20 levels, while also not choosing a strategy that goes obsolete in the time that your campaign will run. Building a fighter can be fairly complex, compared to, say, building a paladin. Instead, it's merely "simple" when it comes time to play, where you solve only those problems which can be solved with "I hit it in the face!"
and why is that a bad thing?
and why is that a bad thing?It's not a bad thing, as long as you don't mind bringing a book to read while the party solves problems which cannot be solved with "I hit it in the face." Roleplaying the simpleton bodyguard of capable and versatile adventurers is fun.
...right?
Now I don't mean that he should jump 100 ft in air while he is surrounded by an aura of energy and hit the ground causing a shockwave.While I'm here, what exactly is the problem with that?
Well mate, Roleplaying and giving ideas to the group require no roll. So you have the same chance of solving lots of stuff with just that.
Skills is a problem, concur, but you can have a nice int and all that. He is made to fight, so, why should he have different things than that? If a player wants that stuff it's fine, multiclass.
Well mate, Roleplaying and giving ideas to the group require no roll. So you have the same chance of solving lots of stuff with just that.
Skills is a problem, concur, but you can have a nice int and all that. He is made to fight, so, why should he have different things than that? If a player wants that stuff it's fine, multiclass.
Commoners can RP, too, yet I notice a shortage of commoner enthusiasts and defenders. I would suspect that it's because people like playing heroic characters who can do fantastic things, rather than taking a night off from their boring life to play a boring person.
Every class is made to fight. Only one class can do nothing but fight.
Sad but true.
At the risk of sounding like an old record: What can be done to change this from now on? What's done is done. I doubt Paizo is going to do rule updates to the Core Rulebook so all we can rely on is additional content. Let's try to list the possibilities:
Variant class features
The Dungeoncrasher variant in 3.5 from Dungeonscape did a lot of good for the fighter as it allowed him to contribute to other things but still in flavor with the class itself. A variant class feature where he would trade in a bit of traditional fighting prowess to be able to do other stuff doesn't sound too bad, to be honest. The problem with this is that it leaves the regular variant out in the cold and I guess it detracts from the reason you'd want to play a fighter in the first place...
New Skills
I would personally love to see some sort of new skill which would be all but exclusive to the fighter. I have no idea what this would be or how it would function, the only thing that comes to mind is some sort of "Tactics" skill which sounds pretty in combat, but I still think a new skill could do the fighter good. New skill uses for existing skills could also be cool, although I doubt the fighter could do them better than the other classes.
New Feats
Fighter exclusive feats that wouldn't be purely for combat sound nice, but it might be hard designing them with proper justification as to why they're fighter exclusive.
I wouldn't mind Fighters receiving more skill ranks per level (4 + Int modifier instead of the current 2 + Int modifier, or maybe even more), and allowing this versatile Fighter to add any 2 skills to his class skill list.
I wouldn't mind Fighters receiving more skill ranks per level (4 + Int modifier instead of the current 2 + Int modifier, or maybe even more), and allowing this versatile Fighter to add any 2 skills to his class skill list.
Yes 2 skills a level is bad, that is one change I always make. But otherwise I have found the fighter alot of fun. If ya want to be flashy and cast spell, the play a caster and be done with it.
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I wouldn't mind Fighters receiving more skill ranks per level (4 + Int modifier instead of the current 2 + Int modifier, or maybe even more), and allowing this versatile Fighter to add any 2 skills to his class skill list.Yes 2 skills a level is bad, that is one change I always make. But otherwise I have found the fighter alot of fun. If ya want to be flashy and cast spell, the play a caster and be done with it.
Rawr rawr badwrongfun rawr wizard > fighter rawr fighters can't have nice things.
Why is that? care to share?Feinting doesn't work a significant amount of the time (since the base success rate is 65%), has all of the disadvantages of full attacking, and all of the disadvantages of making single attacks.
Makes sense.
I think so.... ya prob missed one or two, some one will be along to work on that however, so no worries.
Really though OP if your having fun with the fighter , what is the issue?
Rawr rawr badwrongfun rawr wizard > fighter rawr fighters can't have nice things.I'm pretty much just on fighters can't have nice things. When people start going into "Fighters do not depend on flashy abilities" and that mess I just see red. ¬_¬
New flashy fighter feats:
Combat Ballerina:
The monsters may laugh when you edge towards them on your tip-toes, but your graceful knee-bends hold a surprise attack.
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Spring Attack, Cleave, Jump 5 ranks
Benefit: When attacking the target of your spring attack, you may choose to make a jump check against his CMD as part of the attack. If you hit, you spin your opponent right round and give him a -4 on attack rolls for one round. If you perform this attack on a sickened target, the attack instead nauseates them for 1 round.
Shut up and Die:
Don't you hate it when them robed little wimps are talky?
Prerequisites: Spellbreaker, Improved Grapple
Benefit: When adjacent spellcaster finishes casting a spell with a verbal component, you may as an immediate action make a grapple check with a -4 penalty. If you succeed, you grapple the target, pin him and cover his mouth if you so wish. Your clothesline slightly disrupts the energy of the spell as well, and any future saves against that spell are at a +2 FIGHTER bonus.
Upward Kinetic Dance of the Berserk Flying Mongoose Slash:
You find shouting out the name gives you enough time to finish the attack.
Prerequisites: BAB+ 9, Jump 9 ranks, Weapon Focus: Any slashing or piercing weapon, Greater Bull Rush, Improved Vital Strike
Benefit: Before making a full attack, make a Bull Rush attempt. For every five feet you push your opponent beyond the first, you get an extra attack at a -5 penalty. You may move one primary attack of yours to the end of your routine. If you do so, and that attack hits, it deals 2d6 extra damage for every attack that hit before it. At the end of your attack routine, the enemy takes falling damage for being bull rushed into the air.
Well I suppose if you wanted a fighter who could do things out of combat you could use your normal feats to fuel things like Skill Focus, Acrobatic, Athletic, Nimble Moves, Persuasive, all that fun jazz. It would basically turn those skills into class skills for you since the only difference is the +3 from class skills.
Just for the record, NOTHING hits harder than the fighter. Except the Pally against Evil outsiders/dragons/undead.
I'm not sure what you are looking for mate, really don't. The fighter is a simple class, and he should be, there should be no "special" effects for the fighter, unless he is multiclassed or something.
Actually, the Fey Sorcerer does. Dominate Person on the fighter and use them for your pet...
Back on topic. A fighter is just that, and it is a damn good class in PF.
If you want to be more than just a fighter, multiclass. A fighter with 1 level of sorcerer gains some nice utility spells. A fighter with a level of rogue gains sneak attack, trap finding, and some points to throw into out of combat skills.
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Lose the bonus feat at first level.
Get this instead.
from the PFCS
Class Skills: A fighter trained at a famous war college or
fighting school gains the following class skills (in addition
to the normal fighter class skills): Diplomacy (Cha), Gather
Information (Cha), Knowledge (architecture and engineering)
(Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nobility
and royalty) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
A fighter is a fighter is a fighter. No mystical stuff. Just fighting. No social abilities (beyond the fact that your average fighter tends to have something like 10 in int/wis/cha, which means it's the same as most people - and most people manage to have social interactions. And you can still get social skill ranks. Or stats of more than 10 in the mental attributes...), just fighting.
If you want fancy stuff, go for things like "sweep enemies off their feet and hit them while they're falling", "take dangerous items away from people who want to use them against you and throw them far away", don't let that nancy-boy wizard get out of your reach once you're beside him, also make it hard for him to concentrate, and if he loses his concentration, hit him to add insult to injury", "be so good with your weapon it scares others, scare them so bad they will be a sitting duck, and them bleed them dry" or "hit so hard others go deaf dumb and blind".
If you want a fighter with mystical stuff, take levels of mystical stuff and levels of fighter - fighters are 100% vanilla.
Vanilla is great stuff. It may not be "mystical crushed nuts honey swirl magic", but "mystical crushed whatever" gets boring sooner or later and then you have this weird crap in the freezer you're sick of and that doesn't go well with lemon. Vanilla, on the other hand, goes well with everything, few don't like it, and while it won't raise your heartbeat, it's unlikely that you'll ever be completely sick of it.
If the vanilla metaphor is not for you, use bread. Nothing fancy, but you can eat it every day for decades, it's filling, and if done right, quite good! Keep your ciabatta-with-herbs-and-currants.