We are playing a campaign with a summoner, and have had a few run-ins with the potential OPness of munchkined Summoner pet. I have no problem is the class, and it can be a lot of fun if the player uses it to build a balanced pet. I am merely looking for ways to torment players who focus on the combat potential of an eidolon to the exclusion of all other abilities.
1. Summoner. If the summoner is using all their resources to trick out their Eidolon, the summoner will probably be pretty gimp in terms of AC and defenses. Killing the summoner is most likely going to be a lot easier than killing the pet up until level 14. The only problem is that this most likely will not make the eidolon go away.
2. Dispel Magic. No, it won't get rid of the Eidolon, but since the summoner spell list is largely comprised of buff spell that can be cast on their pet, a good dose of dispel magic can remove several rounds worth of buffing in one spell.
3. Dismissal, Banishment, Banish Good(Evil/Chaos/Law). These spells can get rid of the pet for a while. If used during combat, the summoner is basically without a pet for the duration of the fight.
4. Damage Reduction. Most combat build of Eidolons rely on hitting with lots of weak hits. A large skeleton with a DR of 10/blunt can really slow a claw and bite eidolon down because the eidolon cannot easily change attack types. Flight, incoporeal, and similar effect can fall into this category IF the eidolon doesn't have any way of dealing with them(IE didn't take the magical attacks or flight evolution)
5. Pit traps, and similar obstacles. The eidolon is smart, but most combat builds leave the eidolon at int 8, and don't take skill evolutions. Forcing a eidolon to make a DC 15 skill checks to get out of a pit trap during combat can be a great way to slow them down. An acrobatic check(DC10) to move along a narrow ledge at a -10 for large creatures can be a good way to force the eidolon's player to rethink their decision to not buy skill evolutions. Especially, if it causes the eidolon to fall to its death. No pet for 24 hours for you!
6. Dungeons have narrow corridors. Not every location was made with large creatures in mind. Worse, if there happens to be a combat encounter on the other side of a narrow crawl space....
What other ways can a creative DM use to make a purely combat focused eidolon into a joke?
Human(oid) sized passages.
Inns where the stables are 100ft+ from the rooms.
Meetings with kings/queens/princesses where a big ole quadroped isn't allowed.
Ranged creatures. (couple melee brutes coupled with archers can kick a strictly melee E's arse).
Anything requiring the PC's to travel by ship (esp if Huge, but large can also be problematic).
SOme of them aren't so much a "problem" as they are just an expenditure of precious resources. Sure, the PC may just be able to keep 'reduce person' on the eidolon for a long time but it'll either cost alot of gold or alot of spells to do so.
And these are aside from the simple RP repercussions of having a 20x20 foot tentacle "fantastical" beast roaming at your side. Sure the major metropoli might let you in, under guard, but good luck getting a warm mug of anything in a smaller town.
You can bully/scare your way in- sure. But good luck getting any service.
-S
So, you are wanting to punish a player for his choice of character?
You are targeting a character because you do not like their choices and they are not to your liking...
Why not just not allow it in the first place and save yourself the drama.D&D isn't GM vs players.
As I said, I have no problem with a Summoner who is played in a sane manner. If the player chooses to be a munchkin and makes life unfun for everyone(other players included), then yes, he will be punished.
The thing is I know how to deal with most of the other character classes if the player goes munchkin on me. The summoner is something new, and I want options. Having every wizard the players come up against always have a dismissal spell would be very old very fast.
It is also a good discussion to have in this forum since it highlight the weaknesses of a class that is being playtested.
I wholeheartedly agree...with the original poster. I think as it stands, the best way to balance the summoner (more specifically the eidolon) is to not forget those pesky little details...like not every dungeon is made for a large or huge sized tentacled mass to travel through comfortably. Not every town is kosher with a twelve foot tall bare breasted blue skinned angle weilding a flaming great sword. Well, unless you're playing in Sigil.
I think this could easily become a DM vs PC issue, and end up as punishment. But no, I don't think the basic idea of inforcing some common sense cause and effect is a bad thing. Heavily armed fighters should be hasled by city guard...rogues with a history of criminal activity should be shuned by honest folk...druids should be stopped at the city gates when they try to bring their twenty foot tall dire bear...summoners with overly strange eidolons shouldn't be any different.
It is not PC vs DM.
However, it IS the DM's job to *challenge* the players and to keep the game *interesting*
If they make a character who's weak as dishwater but with an uber, nigh unstoppable Big E then.. its the DM's Job to challenge him.
That doesn't mean "rocks fall on your head" but it does mean occasionally poking out the eye of the summoner.
If a fighter builds himself with an 8 wisdom, does the DM then never target that save? of course not! At least- I hope not. Build a glaring, stupid weakness into your character and expect to have it poked and prodded occasionally.
Summoner and Eidolon are no different.
-S
Back on topic, AoE spells seem useful. If you can catch the summoner and the eidolon in the same spell, you are hitting them both on a weak save, and depriving the summoner of the HP to sacrafice to keep his pet alive.
Yea, dismissal can get very old very fast, but if summoner is really crossing some boundaries, like soloing all encounters and hogging all the spot light, just go dismissal and than forbidance (i think thats the name of the spell that doesn't allow you to summon) say its in the whole dungeon, and you crippled your Summoner to the boot - WARNING - player might hate you, very, very, very, very much ... very :)
something like fireshield will hurt alot with many attacks.
slowing or otherwise forcing it down to a standard action might work
as I recall mst builds do not actually have a great AC, so just a bunch of scattered relatively low level foes might do alot of damage to it.
puzzles and skill based challenges, encounters based on wits more than brawn.
Simple, you let the player know that if they abuse the Eidolon, then you can make the same build for an opponent, the enemy summoner knows the danger of the other summoner so he'd focus on the PC summoner.
2. Dispel Magic. No, it won't get rid of the Eidolon, but since the summoner spell list is largely comprised of buff spell that can be cast on their pet, a good dose of dispel magic can remove several rounds worth of buffing in one spell.
Actually, using the pathfinder rules, dispel magic only removes one spell, not several rounds worth of buffing spells.
Yeah, just looked at the PF version of Dispel Magic, and man did they nerf the hell out of that spell. Seems seriously weak for a level 3 spell.
Of course greater dispel magic can still remove multiple spells.
Yea, dismissal can get very old very fast, but if summoner is really crossing some boundaries, like soloing all encounters and hogging all the spot light, just go dismissal and than forbidance (i think thats the name of the spell that doesn't allow you to summon) say its in the whole dungeon, and you crippled your Summoner to the boot - WARNING - player might hate you, very, very, very, very much ... very :)
No.
See, as I understand it the OP is looking at ways to slow down the Summoner if he's being cheesy (which I agree with), not a way to render the entire character useless. That's just dickish dming.
You're all friends, right? Ask the Summoner to tone it down a bit. Suggest Scent or Skilled as replacements for an offending evolution.
I always go with the velvet glove over an iron fist approach. Ask nicely, if they don't listen....
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but:
If the PC is disrupting the game for everyone and you ask nicely and they don't listen then you dont' squish the character. You simply inform the person that their current build is unacceptable and needs to be changed.
You don't have to go from "nice guy" to "PC Killer". Don't out jerk the jerk. Just be firm and consistent with your rulings.
When it comes down to it- you are the DM. It is your job, however bad it may be, to stop folks from being abusive and disruptive. Even if that means you not letting them attend the games until they behave.
While I agree that DM's need to challenge their PC's-even to the point of aiming at their weakspots, I do not believe that the DM should be doing so -for the purpose- of killing or aggravating a troublesome PC. if a PC is causing an issue like that it needs to be handled OOC, off the table, person to person.
"I'm sorry bob but your build is just too disruptive" is far, far less problematic than "Well looks like bob died again.. What is that, 3rd time this scenario? Rough adventure path."
-S