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I'm going to DM for a party consisting of a Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Fighter. Given what I have seen about rogues on the forums, I'm thinking of adding the following feature to the rogue class:
Rogue Precision: Whenever a rogue is able to apply sneak attack dice to an attack, he may his rogue level in place of his base attack bonus.
The rationale is that rogues aren't just better at injuring those they catch off guard, but that they are particularly good at hitting them as well. I think that while it makes sense for fighters to outdamage rogues in general, rogues should have an edge when both the fighter and the rogue are attacking an unwary opponent. My hope is that this fix meshes well with both the flavor of rogues and the Pathfinder mechanics, given that the alternate BAB has some precedence with Flurry of Blows. I don't think this will make rogues catch up to fighters in damage, but I think it will help.
I also considered allowing sneak attack to crit, but I thought that might be going too far. Instead, I'll see how the fighter and the rogue do with this minor fix (both TWF builds, I should mention), and then decide if it was enough.
Opinions?
I wouldn't allow it myself. This will have far reaching impact I am thinking
I basically agree. Start off playing it as is, and then see if it really needs fixing.
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do what your going to do bro. I would not, I repeat not give a rogue full BAB. Rogues who want to hit can do so.
Heck at lower levels my rogue either trailed the fighter or the druids animal companion and flanked on every occasion I was allowed.
At mid to higher levels, I was using scrolls and wands with a few charges left of improved invisibility or blink. That will really give you an edge.
And as long as you sip sparingly from the magic department, you wont go broke.
basically a rogue able to attain full bab means why play a fighter ever.
Fighter gets to be top dog damage dealer. He loses almost any relevant skill selection and tricks outside of combat to do this.
A rogue with full bab, even when just sneak attacking, will replace the fighter pretty quick. IMO.
Since your opponents will either be denied Dex bonus or are being flanked a Rogue usually has higher odds of hitting with a sneak attack anyways...
i like this fix. may i suggest turning the craven feat from champions of ruin into a rogue talent as well? theres nothing to fear from it. it looks like a lot but really isnt. oops i have an appointment i have to leave for.
I wouldn't give them the flurry o' blows. Thats monk mojo and you don't want to mess with monk mojo
Run the game before you go making changes like this. It's a lot easier to implement a change down the road than it is to take it back after the rogue is used to it.
Honestly I think you'll find the rogue does just fine.
Wolfthulu is right. You really should run the game first before you start making changes. It's the only way to find out what works and what doesn't.
These forums are very good for rules discussions. You can find some very interesting information here. But bear in mind that game balance is something that everyone has a different opinion on, and I do mean everyone. Pick any class and you will find a very vocal minority who will explain with great fervor why it is totally broken and should be completely revamped. Rogues are too squishy! Fighters don't get nice things! They nerfed the Druid! And the Cleric! And the Wizard! The Ranger sucks! Monks are useless!
The only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to play the game straight and see what works. And it will be much, much harder to take a power boost away from the player once he or she has gotten used to it.
I'm going to DM for a party consisting of a Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Fighter. Given what I have seen about rogues on the forums, I'm thinking of adding the following feature to the rogue class:
Rogue Precision: Whenever a rogue is able to apply sneak attack dice to an attack, he may his rogue level in place of his base attack bonus.
The rationale is that rogues aren't just better at injuring those they catch off guard, but that they are particularly good at hitting them as well. I think that while it makes sense for fighters to outdamage rogues in general, rogues should have an edge when both the fighter and the rogue are attacking an unwary opponent. My hope is that this fix meshes well with both the flavor of rogues and the Pathfinder mechanics, given that the alternate BAB has some precedence with Flurry of Blows. I don't think this will make rogues catch up to fighters in damage, but I think it will help.
I also considered allowing sneak attack to crit, but I thought that might be going too far. Instead, I'll see how the fighter and the rogue do with this minor fix (both TWF builds, I should mention), and then decide if it was enough.
Opinions?
Don't let the boards sway you from the book. Keep the rogue as it is, in my honest opinion.
I agree with your change, here is what I do for rogues.
The rogue gains a +1 bonus to hit at first level, and an additional +1 every 4 levels after any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks his target. (this is basically what you suggest).
I also change or make available the following for rogue talents:
Minor magic (Sp): a rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0 level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast an unlimited time per day and the caster level is equal to the rogue’s level. The rogue must have an INT of 10 or more to use this ability. Save DC is 10 + Int modifier (why should the sorcerer in your campaign with a detect magic cantrip be a better magic trap finder than your rogue)
Hide in plain sight (Ex): a rogue can use the stealth skill as long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, he can hide from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind but cannot hide in his own shadow. (because forcing people to have to take the obligitory one level dip in shadow dancer gets old)
Then for more high level power I add the following advanced talents:
Athletic Cascade (Ex): if a Rogue moves before making an attack, for the purposes of flanking she may count any square she has moved through as threatening an opponent, in addition to the space she is actually attacking from. In this manner, she may even flank with herself. (Pathfinder nerfed acrobatics so it really is not as good as if would be in regular 3.5)
Aggressive Stealth (Ex): A Rogue does not suffer the -20 penalty to Hide or Move Silently checks for running or fighting.
Dedicated Evasion (Ex): A Rogue gains the ability to evade with almost supernatural skill. As a standard action, she can add her Thief level as a Dodge bonus to her Reflex Saves and AC for one round. (as a standard action I think it is fair)
Shadow Tumble (Su): A Rogue has learned to momentarily move through the Plane of Shadow. She may make an acrobatics check with a DC equal to 10 plus five for every square she wishes to pass through another plane of existence. Intervening terrain, even walls of force have no effect on movement through the plane of shadow. The Thief’s total distance moved does not increase, no matter how much of it may be taken through the plane of shadow.
Finally just because I can I make available a capstone rogue talent at 20th level.
Supreme Evasion (Ex): A Rogue takes no damage from any effect requiring a Reflex save.
Of course to be fair to fighters I let them have skill ranks: 4 + int modifer and give them good will saves.
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Thanks for the feedback so far. Just a couple of clarifying things:
Do NOT plan to give rogues Flurry of Blows. What I meant was there is precedent for a non-full BAB class to get full BAB in special circumstances.
And I had been playing for a while rather than DMing, and found the rogue to be a bit underwhelming, but that may have been his build more than anything, so I don't count on it being a design flaw.
I see the point about it being implementable later on, so I'll probably hold off at least for a session or two and see if he gets outshone by the fighter/sorcerer for damage/utility. If not, I will be pleasantly surprised and won't have to make the fix.
I see the point about it being implementable later on, so I'll probably hold off at least for a session or two and see if he gets outshone by the fighter/sorcerer for damage/utility. If not, I will be pleasantly surprised and won't have to make the fix.
If the fighter is built right he will always out-damage the rogue,as it should be.
Do NOT plan to give rogues Flurry of Blows.
It was more a metaphorical Flurry of Blows, an ability to raise the BAB to full without raising the BAB to full.
What I meant was there is precedent for a non-full BAB class to get full BAB in special circumstances.
Well, it's a bad precedent if you ask me. The monk should be a warrior class. It's a martial artist, after all. It's one of the big defining features.
And I had been playing for a while rather than DMing, and found the rogue to be a bit underwhelming, but that may have been his build more than anything, so I don't count on it being a design flaw.
Define "underwhelming" in this case. Didn't do as much damage as others? Rogues aren't all about damage. That's why they get tons of skill points and abilities that are useful out of combat. If you want to kill things, the rogue is not your class.
I see the point about it being implementable later on, so I'll probably hold off at least for a session or two and see if he gets outshone by the fighter/sorcerer for damage/utility. If not, I will be pleasantly surprised and won't have to make the fix.
Well, the fighter is still a fighter. Sure, he's multiclassing into sorcerer, but he's still half fighter. In the end, his BAB is the same as the rogue's (assuming an even split of fighter and sorcerer levels). But the fighter, being the fighter, will still have the advantage, because his class abilities are geared towards making them great warriors.
Well, the fighter is still a fighter. Sure, he's multiclassing into sorcerer, but he's still half fighter. In the end, his BAB is the same as the rogue's (assuming an even split of fighter and sorcerer levels). But the fighter, being the fighter, will still have the advantage, because his class abilities are geared towards making them great warriors.
fighter / sorcerer wasn't refering to a multi-class ;)
rogues, are seriously quite good though, especially without wizard, a sorcerer's utility function will be more limited.
A rogue is never meant to be a straight up class though, you need some improvising and cleverness, if you just want to hack at things better off playing a fighter.
(though it does quite well as secondary combatant played cleverly)
The real difficulty is for the DM to make the game enjoyable for the rogue by allowing for oppurtunity to use his / her skills.
Fighter and Rogue are pretty balanced against each other currently. I feel that this change is unnecessary unless you are combining it with a major increase in skillpoints for other classes like the fighter. Basically you are saying that you don't want the fighting man to have his schtick and don't want to give up some of your own in return.
I think there is room in the game for a non-ranger skill fighter/ thug rogue but even a conditional increase in BaB to full progression for the rogue either needs to come at the cost of Skillpoints or possibly class abilities.
I can see why a rogue would want to hit more but I don't like the idea of sneak attacks doing full BAB. I could see trading sneak attack dice for a bonus to hit though. So say you 3D6 for sneak attack you ditch one dice for +1 to hit instead and do 2D6 for sneak attack.
Personally though I think I'd just leave the rogue as is.
Could make the bonus 1/rd the first attack uses Rogue level instead of BAB. So 1st attack usually hits, but after that use BAB.
I wouldn't bump BAB. That gives better iterative attacks. Instead, I'd borrow a page from Bad Axe's Trailblazer and give rogues a simple attack roll bonus called Combat Tactics, applicable whenever a target is denied its Dex bonus or is flanked by the rogue.
At 1st through 4th levels, a +1 attack roll bonus.
At 5th through 8th levels, a +2 attack roll bonus.
At 9th through 12th levels, a +3 attack roll bonus.
At 13th through 16th levels, a +4 attack roll bonus.
At 16th through 20th levels, a +5 attack roll bonus.
This puts the rogue's basic attack roll bonus on par with the fighter's, but doesn't give the rogue the full benefits of a higher BAB.