You're talking about wandering around with a HUGE TENTACLE MONSTER. The earth shakes when it walks. Entire villages run screaming in terror as you approach. Local lords muster the militia when your party is three days out of town to fight off the "demon tentacle beast". Wizards wander into taverns, seeking adventurers to help slay the "tentacle terror". Japanese schoolgirls run about in inexplicable short uniforms. You cannot in any way expect to be subtle with this kind of pet. Your enemies will know it's coming, and make plans to counter it. Banishment is only one way. And a 3rd level rogue can do it.
The too big for a dungeon ya I can see that buy you know I hardly ever go down into dungeons so to speak and if the summoner did well there are spells to reduce his size.Yes. And these spells will also reduce his strength, and ergo, effectiveness.
As far as hiding a huge creature like that? Umm what about invisibility? That is a rather easy spell to have thrown on a per by a friend..Invis last 20 minutes per cast. And it does nothing to silence your pet (which as mentioned above, shakes the ground as it walks, and leaves behind footprints a foot deep). This pet fails at subtle.
It's a tradeoff. Sure, you can run around with your huge tentacle beast with 70+ STR, smashing the beejeezus out of the average encounter,...
However, this does make life harder for a summoner and does show an obvious weak spot. Personally I do think that it should be that easy to banish an eidolon because of how unique and...
Well there is always the spell improved invisibility which does eliminate smell sight and sound of a creature. So if you have a scroll of that or have someone in the group that can cast that it would solve that problem.
As for the huge tentacle beast I think you miss understand me in that I wouldn't do something like that because I am not a munchkin player I only brought it up because there are munchkin players out there. I was approaching this from the angle of a GM not a player.
If I was playing a summoner my creature would be designed around a concept plus good abilities. As an illustrator I tend to like to paint my character's out and that would include pet like beings attached to that character. Unless I was playing some Lovecraftain world I wouldn't do all tentacles like that. Not to mention a person would keep hearing hentai tentacle jokes all the time.
It is. Normal summons are vulnerable to dispel magic as well.
I understand that and agree that it should at the very least be that way. However, just being able to pull someone's punk card like that and so easily is wrong because it feels like it violates the whole purpose of the class. Images of the Black Knight from Monty Python come to mine for some reason.
I will say this how often does a wizard carry the banishment spell unless he knows before hand that he is going to deal with a summoned creature.In a world full of 50 foot high, 70+ STR Tentacle Beasts of Doom?
Dude, there would be Wizards who make fortunes doing NOTHING BUT scribing Banishment scrolls all day long.
Summoner is a core class. The average villain will know it's weaknesses, just like he knows not to get flanked by the rogue.
Now the first thing to mind to being able to stop this spell is of course to counter it however here is the Rub the spell is a level 7 and the Summoner's spell only go up to level 6. Of course the only solve that problem is to carry scrolls or a staff of banishment himself.
The only other option I see is for the eidolon to take the very expensive Spell Resistance evolution however at level 20 with a level 20 caster casting the spell the banisher would only need an 11 or higher roll to overcome the SR.
Spell Resistance (Ex): An eidolon is protected against magic, gaining spell resistance. The eidolon’s spell resistance is equal to 11 + the summoner’s level. This spell resistance does not apply to spells cast by the summoner. The summoner must be at least 9th level before selecting this evolution.
Now I am unsure but after a wizard overcomes a monster's/character's SR is that creature still allowed to make a saving throw?
If after an overcome SR the creature is allowed the saving throw then I guess I would be OK with the chances of banishment because then at most it would mean a rough 25% chance that the monster will go bye bye. To me from a DM and a Player that would seem fair.
Now I am unsure but after a wizard overcomes a monster's/character's SR is that creature still allowed to make a saving throw?
Yes.
Also, any Eidolon with the Arms evolution can wear rings, which means they can wear a ring of counterspells with the banishment spell stored inside.
Yes.Also, any Eidolon with the Arms evolution can wear rings, which means they can wear a ring of counterspells with the banishment spell stored inside.
LOL, I had this image of the eidolon in question brandishing a ring of banishment in a kind of heroic gesture pose and saying, "I don't think so"!
OK, then the whole banishment thing and sorry if earlier I was sounding a little defensive.
On a separate note does an item that grants SR stack with a natural SR?
Well there is always the spell improved invisibility which does eliminate smell sight and sound of a creature.
Either that is the wrong name for the spell you or you misread another spell.
You got a reference for that?
Well there is always the spell improved invisibility which does eliminate smell sight and sound of a creature.
Either that is the wrong name for the spell you or you misread another spell.
You got a reference for that?
Well it is from 3.5 and it is a real spell and is found in several books. The spell exists but I was mixing it up with Superior Invisibility. Improved Invisibility just lets you stay invisible after you attack. However Superior Invisibility does allow what I mentioned but of course you would have to have a wizard friend cast it.
INVISIBILITY,
SUPERIOR
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object
weighing no more than 100 lb./
level
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
(harmless)
Spell Resistance: No
As you complete the spell, your senses dull somewhat. Upon releasing the spell’s energy on your desired subject, your senses clear, although the spell’s recipient can no longer be perceived.This powerful glamer functions like invisibility (PH 245), except that it masks image, scent, and sound alike,concealing the subject from all senses except touch. As with greater invisibility, this spell doesn’t end if the subject attacks. While invisible, the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight. Superior invisibility renders the recipient immune to detection by see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisibility
purge, and dust of appearance, although creatures under the effect of the spell can be detected by true seeing. Certain mundane conditions (such as leaving footprints) can also render a subject detectable.
Well there is always the spell improved invisibility which does eliminate smell sight and sound of a creature.
Either that is the wrong name for the spell you or you misread another spell.
You got a reference for that?
Well it is from 3.5 and it is a real spell and is found in several books. The spell exists but I was mixing it up with Superior Invisibility. Improved Invisibility just lets you stay invisible after you attack. However Superior Invisibility does allow what I mentioned but of course you would have to have a wizard friend cast it.
INVISIBILITY,
SUPERIOR
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object
weighing no more than 100 lb./
level
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
(harmless)
Spell Resistance: No
As you complete the spell, your senses dull somewhat. Upon releasing the spell’s energy on your desired subject, your senses clear, although the spell’s recipient can no longer be perceived.This powerful glamer functions like invisibility (PH 245), except that it masks image, scent, and sound alike,concealing the subject from all senses except touch. As with greater invisibility, this spell doesn’t end if the subject attacks. While invisible, the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight. Superior invisibility renders the recipient immune to detection by see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisibility
purge, and dust of appearance, although creatures under the effect of the spell can be detected by true seeing. Certain mundane conditions (such as leaving footprints) can also render a subject detectable.
That is what I thought you were referring to. I just wanted to make sure. :)
Yup I just got confused a bit. There are a lot of invisibility spells out there.
Yes.Also, any Eidolon with the Arms evolution can wear rings, which means they can wear a ring of counterspells with the banishment spell stored inside.
LOL, I had this image of the eidolon in question brandishing a ring of banishment in a kind of heroic gesture pose and saying, "I don't think so"!
OK, then the whole banishment thing and sorry if earlier I was sounding a little defensive.
On a separate note does an item that grants SR stack with a natural SR?
It does but the SR stacking rules are REALLY WEIRD so unless you've managed to track them down you would just be guessing at it.
Something like a second source of SR that is under 13 is +1 to existing higher SR, a second source of SR between 13 and 17 is +2....
Something long those lines, a real pain in the neck to deal with lol.
(Note I haven't read these rules in a while I may be off-base)
Page 565 in the core rulebook "Spell resistance does not stack, but rather overlaps."
i wouldn't build a tentacle monster, maybe a huge centipede. not as bad. but still cheesy, he would have a white spot over his left eye, his name would be spot, and his owner is a 10 year old girl in a poofy extravagant frilly dress. her name would be Victoria Julianna Elizabeth Marianna Dianna Bailey. 6 names, she makes everyone she meets say all 6. she is really anal retentive about it.
Page 565 in the core rulebook "Spell resistance does not stack, but rather overlaps."
OK could that be less vague? What is the difference between something that overlaps and something that stacks?
Stacks:
3+3 = 6
Overlaps: 3 and 3= 3
-S
*sigh* It would just be easier just to say they don't stack. IMHO
Wouldn't overlapping allow a situation like the following, but not stacking wouldn't?
Source 1: SR3
Source 2: SR3Debuff1: -3 SR
Resulting SR: 3.
Ahh I see what you mean. That would actually be pretty funny. Haha I just debuffed you....
You shrug and smile
Debuffer casts a combat spell at you, you still resist.
Debuffer, "What the!?!
Okey it took me a while to read through everything :)
Well ... At this moment making a skill monkey out of your Big E is possible but not so easy, cause he got too low of an wis and int, to be able to do anything. You can get evo that gives +2 to an ability and put +1 from levels into it, but that just means that your skills won't have a minus from stats. And it should be like that, that he can fulfill any role in a party but not quiet as good as class intended to fulfill it.
While i do agree on everything you said about "GM's can say no", i don't really want to go around banning spells, evolutions and feats like i had to in 3.5, thats why i am pointing stuff now that could meet banhammer later on.
And my current problem with E, is not that he can fill any role in a party - thats cool and i like that, but that he can fulfill some of the roles better than classes intended to do them, true he can't perform better out of combat than lets say rogue/bard/etc. and thats fine by me, no thats great by me - thats how it should be, but in combat he surpasses more or less all of the martial classes at anything - and thats the whole problem, we are talking about just E here, not even getting summoner into the picture, nor his very limited but very well put list of buffs.
While its true, most sane GM's won't allow munchkins to get 101 tentacle attack by level 10, they don't even have to get them to be better than any other marital class in combat - just blindly poking combat abilities as it is now, is enough, and you can hardly call that optimization or munchkinism.
Not all Evo's are silly strong as you know, E being able to go Large at 6th and then Huge at 11th is not only inappropriate for most adventures, its also too strong for those that mostly happen in the open, ergo allows him to be Huge.
This is my suggestion:
Note: These are suggestions about combat oriented E's, cause out of combat oriented E's are fine in my book.
I will probably start repeating myself right about now but w/e.
Ability Increase costs 2 Evo's and gives you +2 to one stat, Large costs 3 and nets you +10 to stats. - going by that, shouldn't Large cost at least 5-6 ? So it nets you a lot combat advantage if you are going for it but also make you waste 1/5 or 1/6th of your total Evo's in process, making it a lot more balanced.
Tentacles should cost 2 and there should be some kind of limit to them - (con modifier)/2 limit seems most appropriate to me. Wing Buffet is ,more or less good example of how to get extra attacks, spending 3 evo's to get 2 attacks that are secondary(i would make Flight cost 4, but Wing Buffet to be incorporated into Flight).
Claws are next to tentacles most imbalanced way of getting attacks - costing 4 Evo's for 2 attacks (if i am not wrong, 2 for arms, 2x1 for claws)that are primary,best way to fix this, is that both claws cost 3 points, a total of 5. While flight does get you another form of movement, arms do have their advantages next to more damage as well, all it takes is to be a bit creative - not trying to argue that arms are better than flight, cause they aren't.
E's should start with a size of small, get free evo (if summoner so wishes) at 6th to become medium, and than at 11th level to go Large for 5 or 6 evo's. Getting strength of 28 without buffs at level 6 equals strength of Barbarian with starting Str of 20 going into rage and getting Bull's Strength on him, doesn't seem 1 bit balanced to me.
Huge should be dumped as an idea completely, or again cost 5-6 evo's at level 16 to get.
Please comment. :)
Yes.Also, any Eidolon with the Arms evolution can wear rings, which means they can wear a ring of counterspells with the banishment spell stored inside.
LOL, I had this image of the eidolon in question brandishing a ring of banishment in a kind of heroic gesture pose and saying, "I don't think so"!
OK, then the whole banishment thing and sorry if earlier I was sounding a little defensive.
On a separate note does an item that grants SR stack with a natural SR?
Oh, wait, it was a dismissal spell not banishment. Sorry Mr. E, your ring is useless.
The thing is if you have munchkin players they can and will find ways to push the limits of each and every rule. Munchkin players require a munchkin DMing.
My players quickly figured out they cannot out munchkin the DM. I have infinite resources, I adjudicate the rules, and I can choose to secretly bend them. After that the games turned into lets try to have fun and roleplay, and the munchkin moments died down a lot.
"Oh I am sorry, but there was a pit trap designed to collapse under the weight of a large or bigger creatures. Mr E just fell 100' and is trapped at the bottom of a pit. Oh by the way, the BBEG was waiting for just this moment to attack, roll initiative. Sorry, the pit is to narrow for Mr. E to fly with his poor manuverability, I hope you took the climb skill evolution and some ranks in climb. You didn't oh, that is just too bad...."
I have absolute no remorse or pity for munchkin characters that are warping game balance and making things unfun for all the other players. Any player who does that at my table will get a couple warnings where I design encounters that make them useless. If they don't reform their ways, the next archer they meet may just happen to have Arrow of Slaying(Munchkin) ready and waiting for them.
Now you see, it is stuff like this that really ticks me off because both of these passages are in total contradiction to each other.Incorrect. The first passage is referencing the fact that normal summoned creatures vanish as soon as they reach 0 hit points. This is clear given the context that Eidolons don't vanish until they reach -Con hit points.
Although I still think that the banishment rule for eidolons is pretty lame because since it the summoner would then again have to wait 24 hoursAlso incorrect. The 24 hour wait period only applies if the Eidolon is banished due to hit point damage.OK ya I was wrong about the 24 hour thing but still it takes from what I read 1 minute to summon it again. It still gimps the Summoner big time making him a weak wizard with just a limited spell selection. What is the point of playing a summoner all that time, the time it is to get to around level 20, only to have an enemy pull a punk card like that.
The point is that it should be harder to banish than a normal summons because it is not a normal summons. I would suggest perhaps a bonus against that particular or similar spell to reflect this fact. Another option is that the banish only operates differently on a eidolon that perhaps it works a little like the Maze spell where the eidolon is gone for a temporary time period.
As far as the reference thing then I think that sentence should say that a little more clearly.
Yes it gimps them..but thats the exact point of it. While you can throw together a creature that can deal the damage of an entire party..but if that happens to be your only trick, then you get what you deserve. And as an after thought, even an invisible creature that is huge should be fairly easy to track, simply by the amount of noise it makes. Using size altering magic to stuff mr Tentacles into a dungeon removes a lot of its combat bonuses..and you had better watch the duration of the spell, or it will get really squishy in there..
My point being, even if you want to build a creature that is overpowered, and the DM allows it..its hardly the end of the world. A Dm that plays it every bit as smart..and as nasty..as his or her players will find away around any single threat.
OK, so over the last two weeks, we put our ROTR campaign on hold to playtest the new character classes. I allowed everyone to roll up a 6th level character, but they had to pick a single classed, APG character.
So, we have:
Half-orc Cavalier
Human Inquisitor
Human Alchemist
Elven Summoner.Eidolon is Quadruped with Large, Claws, Energy Attack (Claws), Lunge, Increased Armor.
Right now, the Eidolon has more HP than anyone else (by almost 15) and, with the Claws (now a primary attack), it has 4 attacks per turn at 12/12/12/7 with more damage than anyone else.
The summoner just sits back and shoots arrows. Pretty much, the Eidolon can take on almost any CR 6 encounter they meet by himself! He has more attacks for more damage than the Cav or Inq, moves at speed 40, has a rediculous number of HP, and a huge CMB...
The only thing the Eidolon doesn't have is good skills or spells.
Maybe I have an old or updated DL, but mine stats that claws ARE a secondary attack for eidolons. That would give him an AC of 19, +12/+7/+7, dealing 1d6+7+1d6 energy for all 3 attacks and assuming you mean pounce for lunge, it can make a full attack after a charge. Its damage is still nasty for a CR 6 critter, (max damage per the bestiary *should* be 25, vs this monsters max at 57)
Just a thought..maybe taking an energy attack should come with vulnerability to the inverse effect..fire=vulnerability to cold...
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Well ... At this moment making a skill monkey out of your Big E is possible but not so easy, cause he got too low of an wis and int, to be able to do anything. You can get evo that gives +2 to an ability and put +1 from levels into it, but that just means that your skills won't have a minus from stats. And it should be like that, that he can fulfill any role in a party but not quiet as good as class intended to fulfill it.
The Evolution gives a racial bonus of +8 which if pretty nice. Use of Feats can further increase skills and 4 points per HD is decent. You can definitely make a highly skilled Eidolon. Without a bonus to their social abilities they are hobbled somewhat compared to PC's but not bad at all. And for skills utilizing Strength and Dex they'll be in pretty good shape,
And my current problem with E, is not that he can fill any role in a party - thats cool and i like that, but that he can fulfill some of the roles better than classes intended to do them, true he can't perform better out of combat than lets say rogue/bard/etc. and thats fine by me, no thats great by me - thats how it should be, but in combat he surpasses more or less all of the martial classes at anything - and thats the whole problem, we are talking about just E here, not even getting summoner into the picture, nor his very limited but very well put list of buffs.
A wildshaped Druid with a AniCom can match the Summoner and Eidolon's damage or close to it (assuming you don't munchkin the crap out of the Eidolon) and the Druid has wildly better spell casting.
While its true, most sane GM's won't allow munchkins to get 101 tentacle attack by level 10, they don't even have to get them to be better than any other marital class in combat - just blindly poking combat abilities as it is now, is enough, and you can hardly call that optimization or munchkinism.
My reasonably made Eidolon (4 claw attacks and a bite with trip) does not do more damage on average than a Two-hander Fighter. The Eidolon also has an extremely hard time with DR.
Not all Evo's are silly strong as you know, E being able to go Large at 6th and then Huge at 11th is not only inappropriate for most adventures, its also too strong for those that mostly happen in the open, ergo allows him to be Huge.
A Cleric can be large for a good portion of a day's encounters at lvl 6 (and get reach out of the deal which the Large Evolution does not provide) and no one throws a fit about that.
This is my suggestion:
Note: These are suggestions about combat oriented E's, cause out of combat oriented E's are fine in my book.
I will probably start repeating myself right about now but w/e.
Ability Increase costs 2 Evo's and gives you +2 to one stat, Large costs 3 and nets you +10 to stats. - going by that, shouldn't Large cost at least 5-6 ? So it nets you a lot combat advantage if you are going for it but also make you waste 1/5 or 1/6th of your total Evo's in process, making it a lot more balanced.
Large does not net +10 to stats. You gain +10 for sure. But you also lose 2 dex, 1 AC (in effect a loss of two more points), and 1 to hit (similar to another 2 points). You therefor arguably only net +4 to stats. Add in the difficulties of managing something of that size in buildings and other enclosed spaces and I think its priced about right even including the bonuses to CMB and CMD, which are somewhat circumstantial, that large also grants.
Tentacles should cost 2 and there should be some kind of limit to them - (con modifier)/2 limit seems most appropriate to me. Wing Buffet is ,more or less good example of how to get extra attacks, spending 3 evo's to get 2 attacks that are secondary(i would make Flight cost 4, but Wing Buffet to be incorporated into Flight).
Did you mean con modifier x 2? Or Con score /2? I would not combine the two evolution points because I'm against limiting the flexibility of the Evolution system.
Claws are next to tentacles most imbalanced way of getting attacks - costing 4 Evo's for 2 attacks (if i am not wrong, 2 for arms, 2x1 for claws)that are primary,best way to fix this, is that both claws cost 3 points, a total of 5. While flight does get you another form of movement, arms do have their advantages next to more damage as well, all it takes is to be a bit creative - not trying to argue that arms are better than flight, cause they aren't.
It costs 3 for two attacks. The Claws Evolution puts claws on both hands. Making it cost 5 points in total is wildly over valuing d4 damage on 2 attacks. Wildly.
E's should start with a size of small, get free evo (if summoner so wishes) at 6th to become medium, and than at 11th level to go Large for 5 or 6 evo's. Getting strength of 28 without buffs at level 6 equals strength of Barbarian with starting Str of 20 going into rage and getting Bull's Strength on him, doesn't seem 1 bit balanced to me.
How did you get to 28? I suspect thats large on a Biped with Ability Increase purchased twice. Doing so you've used all but two of your EP. congrats. You have a glass cannon or a not great damage dealer if you burn those last two on natural armor (still only AC21 though).
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I think that one of the things that people theory-hammering the Summoner often forget is that having essentially two PC's means that you're only able to equip each with half the magic items that other PC's have or give one all the good stuff and leave the other very vulnerable.
OK first I would like once again to clarify something. That whole tentacle monster example is not something that I personally want to creature. In some of the responses I have been reading where I am quoted suggests that is what people are thinking. I only used that example to show how this evolution can be abused. If I wanted to abuse this wouldn't I not bring it up in the first place? I even suggest before you could take another pair of limbs or tentacles that a limit of buying something else before your next limb or tentacle would balance this out.
As far as the ability increase evolution I don't think it is overpowered because it does have limits in the fact you can only take it 4 times by level 20 or something like that.
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Since the octopus-out-of-water is not an Eidolon you would make, here is one I would(for reasons not related to power. He is still built for combat though...)
Huge Biped Eidolon
HD: 10d10+20+10 ( hp)
Speed: 30ft,
Fort: 13=7+6 Reflex: 6=3+1+2 Will: 7=7+0 Bab:+10 CMB:+25 CMD: 36
Ac: 24=10+1(dex)+15(natural)-2(size) Tch:9 Ff:23
Str36 Dex12 Con22
Int7 Wis10 Cha12
Bite(2d6+13, x2, BPS)+21
Power Attack(2d6+13+6)+18
2 Claws(1d8+13, x2, B)+21
Power Attack(1d8+13+6)+18
Breath Weapon(10d6 fire, 30ft-cone or 60ft-line, DC:21) 1/day
Evolutions: Claws(f), Limbs(arms, f), Limbs(legs, f), Tail(1 point), Bite(1 point), Breath Weapon(4 points), Large(3 points), Huge(4 points), Trample(2 points)
Special: Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Feats: Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus(Intimidate), Toughness
Skills
Intimidate: 33=1+10+3+13+6
Use Magic Device: 14=1+10+3
Sense Motive: 14=1+10+3
Heal: 14=1+10+3
OK I thought it time to start looking in other directions of overpoweredness. One of the major duties of a combat group is the tank the meat shield that takes all the abuse. However all the playtests I have have read so far have not been stated up for that. So I suggest a more meaty and more defensive eidolon.
Once again level 20 Biped model.
Also please note this is not something I intend to build and I am not a munchkin I am just checking for the overpowered factor.
First off magic items that the eidolon could use to beaf up AC: Any time that provides a direction bonus to base AC, natural Armor and deflection. So just from that lets say a max of +15 from 3 different item. Of course there is also the misc slot as well but we will leave that alone for now. Also any item that raises both Dex and Con so lets say just for agrument sake that the eidolon has two items that raises Dex and Con by 5 each. Also let say we give him a heavy steel Shield of +3
So at level 20 before evolutions but with these hypothetical magic items and all normal ability increases going to Con.
29 str, Dex 25, and Con 22 39 AC
Feats taken: Weapon Finesse (or equivalent) These feats can be applied to natural weapons, dodge (+1 dodge to AC), Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Focus
29 str, Dex 25, and Con 22 40 AC
But can now attack with shield as well as use it defensively
Now the Evolutions.
4 evo points for 4 natural armors increases for a total bonus of +8 to AC
6 evo points for 3 con ability increases for a + 6 to con
5 evo points for Damage Reduction +10
4 evo points for spell resistance of 21
So these leaves us with 7 evo points to spend for whatever.
So finally we would with the hypothetical magic items have stats like this.
29 str, Dex 25, and Con 28 48 AC
With out the items however and just a heavy steel Shield
24 str, Dex 21, and Con 22 27 AC
So would this be overpowered?
I do wonder if you can use multiple shield with a multiple arm creature as long as you took the multiweapon feat since you can use them as weapons. If this is true at a second pair of arms and weapon training and then you have a bash happy AC heavy tank creature
Since the octopus-out-of-water is not an Eidolon you would make, here is one I would(for reasons not related to power. He is still built for combat though...)
** spoiler omitted **
That is pretty strong with out any magic items to augment. Reminds me a bit of the last boss of Tekken 3
i'd go for a large centipede. (maybe huge) how would you pull off a centipede? preferrably large.
i'd go for a large centipede. (maybe huge) how would you pull off a centipede? preferrably large.
Well you could never actually pull of the total number of legs of a centipede because first it would be a waste of points to buy limbs that many times and two you don't have enough points. I guess it would be up to your DM. If I were your DM I would make this call:
For every limb evolution you buy would would get 6 insect like limbs that have no feet, for every six extra limbs you will gain a 10 ft movement in speed. For the most part it would only be cosmetic.
Also purely for cosmetic reasons take the quadruped base spit each normal leg into 3 insect like legs but the stats remain the same. This would give you base form a total of 12 legs, 6 on each side. But like I said the stats remain the same.
So by putting lets say 8 points into insect like limbs: Your eidolon centipede would have starting with a (modified) quadruped base (for flexibility) would have a centipede like creature with a total of 28 insect like legs 14 on each side and would have a base speed of 70. Wow that is fast.
At least 1 point for pounce.
1 point for bite to gain the 1 1/2 str bonus to damage
3 points for large ( this would increase the bite to 1d8 plus give a larger strength bonus )
1 point to increase damage on bite this would increase it to 1d10 (and if you take the feat improved natural attack this increases to 1d12 I believe)
4 points for a Con poison with it's bite
4 points for natural armor for a +8 to AC
3 points into Damage Reduction
and then after that anything you want as long as it keeps it's form.
No, you just represent a centipede Eidolon with a Serpentine base form. Centipedes don't move all that quickly, which is the mechanical function of the Legs evolution, so just represent em with the legless Base Form and state that it's essentially serpentine in shape with dozens of "legs" or "feelers" that provide its method of locomotion (rather than sidewinding or other actual snake locomotion methods).
Coincidentally, this also fits their attack forms best.
what about claws on each leg? i was thinking that it would wrap around it victim, bite, and hack with it's sharp legs.
i guess i could go with the tentacle monster too. it just won't be loaded with them. (8 tentacles is enough)
No, you just represent a centipede Eidolon with a Serpentine base form. Centipedes don't move all that quickly, which is the mechanical function of the Legs evolution, so just represent em with the legless Base Form and state that it's essentially serpentine in shape with dozens of "legs" or "feelers" that provide its method of locomotion (rather than sidewinding or other actual snake locomotion methods).
Coincidentally, this also fits their attack forms best.
You could go that way as well but I was going with the thought that the creature was not a normal centipede but more of a demonic kind.
Although just doing the centipede via the serpentine form does free up more points and it would let you have the look from the get go. If you wanted to give it a little more speed though both ways (minus the quadruped form) could work as well.
You could do the serpentine form that has a lot of little legs and then take extra limbs but instead of two animal like limbs they look like 6 extra insect legs but with only boost of 10 feet in speed.
No, you just represent a centipede Eidolon with a Serpentine base form. Centipedes don't move all that quickly, which is the mechanical function of the Legs evolution, so just represent em with the legless Base Form and state that it's essentially serpentine in shape with dozens of "legs" or "feelers" that provide its method of locomotion (rather than sidewinding or other actual snake locomotion methods).
Coincidentally, this also fits their attack forms best.
You could go that way as well but I was going with the thought that the creature was not a normal centipede but more of a demonic kind.
Although just doing the centipede via the serpentine form does free up more points and it would let you have the look from the get go.
i was thinking of a demonic centipede. something akin to the demons from inu yasha.
what about claws on each leg? i was thinking that it would wrap around it victim, bite, and hack with it's sharp legs.
You're not going to end up with much of a centipede (100 feet, literally) if you try to actually buy legs for it. Even less if you try to put claws on those legs.
I strongly recommend going the Serpentine route and taking things like Sting, Poison (Con), Large/Huge, Frightful Presence, Elemental Attacks (Acid), etc.
guess i'll have to go with a nerfed tentacle monster (only 8 tentacles) or even a humanoid skill monkey eidolon. the humanoid skill monkey eidolon with spell like abilities actually sounds interesting too. is there a sneak attack evolution?
guess i'll have to go with a nerfed tentacle monster (only 8 tentacles) or even a humanoid skill monkey eidolon. the humanoid skill monkey eidolon with spell like abilities actually sounds interesting too. is there a sneak attack evolution?
I would suggest doing a combo between what I suggested and what Zurai Suggested.
Take a Serpentine form say it has a lot of legs this would also make it flexible.
Take a couple points in extra limbs and stat wise treat it the same as the text however they would look like 6 extra centipede legs for each limb evo you take.
Put claws for each limb evo you bought. Visually though it would like like a single claw or two on each insect like leg. So 3 insect clawed legs would equal 1 clawed limb.
And then from that point on just do what you like.
On the other hand it sounds like you want to have multiple attacks and if you want that then you are probably going to want to have pounce. Pounce requires the quadruped form.
I don't know if this has changed but I know from 3.5 if you move more than 5 feet you can only do one of your attacks but with pounce you can charge and do a full attack.
On the other hand it sounds like you want to have multiple attacks and if you want that then you are probably going to want to have pounce. Pounce requires the quadruped form.
I don't know if this has changed but I know from 3.5 if you move more than 5 feet you can only do one of your attacks but with pounce you can charge and do a full attack.
yeah, a pouncing multiattacking fiend, or a skill monkey eidolon that sneak attacks with spell like abilities, is there a sneak attack evolution? (1 point per d6 perhaps? no more than 1/2 of current hit dice)
There isn't a sneak attack one yet.
if they add one I rather figure they'll put some hard caps on it, to keep folks from goin the zillion-arm-and-high-str-plus-precision-damage thing.
Suggestions from other threads have it to be limited to medium or smaller E's only, with some fairly hard caps on how high the damage can go.
But as yet, there is no SA evolution that I'm aware of.
-S
Sorry, i meant 26, but even 28 is highly doable - you forgot to calculate +2 E gets from being Eidolon and +1 from level, and in Attribute Increase its said that it doesn't stack for same attributes, so you can't get same attribute twice - thats how i read it at least, which is why i didn't complain about it =P
Yea, but Eidolon still can't get trap finding, which is nice, he can be a skill monkey, but i seriously cannot see Eidolon as a party face going high diplomacy or bluff. Intimidate for certain, but than thats not really much for a party representative, except if party isn't evil of course :)
Through he can get most of the Knowledges and such skills, which is always nice to have in right circumstances and campaigns.
On other topic, i agree with Zurai, look under centipede you will see that it got a single bite attack. Now as this is demonic centipede, you could add more bite attacks (having more heads(2-3 would be enough)) and buying poison once is enough, cause its per type of attack not per attack.
As for legs, simply go with snake form take limbs (legs) 2 times, thats 40 feet speed and i would say that makes climb speed 40 feet as well (if not, its 1 point evolution to get that 20 speed increase). Large and that pretty much covers what centipede can do and after that its up to you. Getting Grab and than Constrict, Energy Attack is also a nice thing to have.
You know there is something that I was thinking about and that is about base forms of the eidolons. The forms themselves are primarily based on how limbs are put on. Then I started to think about centaurs and that you could easily make a centaur like creature from either the biped or quadruped forms just with the evolution of limbs.
For instance the quadruped form just add a pair of arms or the biped an extra pair of legs. Anatomically speaking both would then constitute for being a quadruped.
Another thing that I haven't seen yet is that while I know at each level you can shuffle your entire evolution pool to make a new form, I am wondering if you can change the base form as well.
For example in Shuriken Nekogami centipede case:
She starts off with serpentine form with a lot of cosmetic insect like legs and a bite evolution.
But as time goes on she when she reaches a certain level she then switches to quadruped base form and then treats each limb cosmetically as 3 insect legs per limb. Each pair of limbs would still count as one limb but would look like 3 insect legs.
Since the base form is now changed her eidolon then can still look more or like as it has all this time but still gain new abilities.
On other topic, i agree with Zurai, look under centipede you will see that it got a single bite attack. Now as this is demonic centipede, you could add more bite attacks (having more heads(2-3 would be enough)) and buying poison once is enough, cause its per type of attack not per attack.
As for legs, simply go with snake form take limbs (legs) 2 times, thats 40 feet speed and i would say that makes climb speed 40 feet as well (if not, its 1 point evolution to get that 20 speed increase). Large and that pretty much covers what centipede can do and after that its up to you. Getting Grab and than Constrict, Energy Attack is also a nice thing to have.
Ya but the problem is that you can't add pounce because that is only open to quadruped base form.
Multiple attacks are really only good if the enemy can come to you or you are already there. With pounce you can charge a enemy and get a full attack.
This is one of the reasons people have a hard time with monks being effective.
Ya but the problem is that you can't add pounce because that is only open to quadruped base form.Multiple attacks are really only good if the enemy can come to you or you are already there. With pounce you can charge a enemy and get a full attack.
This is one of the reasons people have a hard time with monks being effective.
Well truthfully centipede shouldn't be able to pounce, as its not. Pounce ability is ability that mostly(/only) cats got, such as lions, tigers, cheetah, etc.
Now ask yourself, in full 3D when you would see centipede charging at someone and instead biting and constricting its prey it suddenly jumped into the air and attacked with her little legs, would you be like "wow ... cool" or "damn, son, thats funny" ? Dunno about you, but i just laughed.
Now ask yourself, in full 3D when you would see centipede charging at someone and instead biting and constricting its prey it suddenly jumped into the air and attacked with her little legs, would you be like "wow ... cool" or "damn, son, thats funny" ? Dunno about you, but i just laughed.
Depends on how you visualize it I guess. I know that I have seen similar monsters in Anime do that kind of thing and to me it was the Wow ....cool
Yep, if I were building a centipede Eidolon I'd go the Grab (tail), Constrict, Poison route. The Centilon charges, attacks with the tail, hits, wins its Grab check, and begins to wrap itself around its prey. If you watch a Youtube video of a real centipede, this is actually pretty close to how they hunt.
OK, since this thread is about the power level of the eidolon lets get back to that.
I was going through the evolutions and came across sting.
Sting (Ex): An eidolon possesses a long, barbed stinger at the end of its tail, granting it a sting attack. This attack is a primary attack. The sting deals 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must possess the tail evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the tail evolution.
Tail (Ex): An eidolon grows a long, powerful tail. This grants it a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to balance on a surface. This evolution can be selected more than once.
This is a one point evolution as is the tail evolution.
Now lets say a 20 level eidolon has 20 points invested into this. BTW we are going for "Ouch that's got to hurt" factor.
Now the way it reads to me is that if you take it again you will either get another tail or the current tail just becomes enhanced. The same is true with the stinger except the number of barbs might increase.
The reason I see this is that I really can't see more than one tail. Nothing in nature is like that really, as far as I know. I guess I could see two tails but the primary purpose of any tail is balance. Anything past two tails becomes unbalanced to me and thus they cease to become tails but rather tentacles.
So lets assume that we go with the tail enhancment version which is my whole idea behind this post.
So we take 10 points and invest it into tail. This tail then becomes a super tail that provides a +20 to acrobatics on a surface. Now we take 10 points and invest in the evolution "Stinger" thus creating a 10 barbed sting.
This stinger would do at level 20 do 10d4+7 points of damage
or
two tails that do 5d4+7 points of damage
anything after that just becomes a tentacle.
Now we add the improved damage evo and we get 10d6+7 or 5d6+7 X 2
Add in the feat Improved Natural Attack and it get bumps up to d8's and then give it the Large Evolution and the die is increased to d10's.
So now with one tail and viscous stinger the Eidolon does 10d10+7 points of damage or more or with two tails and stingers does 5d10+7 points of damage.
Now let's get silly and have it drip acid with the energy attack evo so that it does an extra 1d6 points of damage
One massive tail: Average dmg per hit 70.5 points of damage
Two Tails: Average of 39 points of damage per tail.
Depends on how you visualize it I guess. I know that I have seen similar monsters in Anime do that kind of thing and to me it was the Wow ....cool
I think we are seeing things from different perspective, while i like anime, its not every day that you see Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, etc. in anime - what more i think only Records of Lodoss War exist that got a lot in common with Pathfinder or DnD. I mean i would like for i dunno my fighter to have his sword changed to be bad ass when he is pissed off, making a 4 feet blade of a greatsword, into i dunno 15 feet blade of doom that cuts down everything in its way on its own and be able to make popcorns for me at the same time so i can enjoy the show :P but alas system is built around myths, legends and middle age, not around anime :)