Completely true Meatrace... I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that the taking of the combat trick multiple times was a no go. The use of other talents to gain feats is of course completely possible, and I agree that several of the talents are quite handy in and of themselves... offering abilities that are not available to most of the party and very much liked when present. In my opinion these are yet another perk of having a rogue around (if not strictly necessary).
So yeah I love the PF rogue, the way they reworked abilities to be talents from the very start, and the talents they created, are incredibly useful. I'm looking forward to playing a rogue, and I'd be hard pressed to choose which talents to take.
@The OP, you've seen the math so if you're not convinced then nothing will convince you. Bards are great and all, but they're a different class with different strengths. They can be the jack of all trades but you forget the other half of that aphorism, master of none. Rogues are good at a great deal of things and they are unequalled at finding and disarming traps.
Also, if you haven't seen AMIB's DPS Olympics thread, the barbarian IS underpowered. Woefully so, at the only thing he can be reasonably expected to do, smack things until they die from it.
To be fair, with the new skill rules Bard, Rogue, and Ranger can largely be used interchangably and I understand how at first glance it seems that rogues don't have the same kind of party synergy. Some of his talents end up being pretty synergistic though, like Slow Reactions and Crippling Strike for instance, at least in relation to melee.
And if you have only one PC to do the job?That is an unrealistic scenario but you only get one PC to do the job? Id probably take a Bard... And if anyone disagrees clearly there was a fail somewhere along the way in making the bard a jack-of-all trades.
I'm not talking about having only a Rogue instead of whole group, but I wonder who exactly replaces the rogue in your group?
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I'm not talking about having only a Rogue instead of whole group, but I wonder who exactly replaces the rogue in your group?And if you have only one PC to do the job?That is an unrealistic scenario but you only get one PC to do the job? Id probably take a Bard... And if anyone disagrees clearly there was a fail somewhere along the way in making the bard a jack-of-all trades.
Well obviously he would decide what everyone plays because his opinion is the only one and all others are full of fail. You must agree with him or you are wrong, even in matters of personal preference. Otherwise you are plain silly, full of fail, have "absurdity in your judgement", and retarded according to RJ. I love how people are taught today to be rude little trolls on the web. More maturity please.
This right here is just straight up lies.I would love to agree and say, "Play what you will."
As a matter of fact I do.
However the poster of this thread made this to prove to the group that rogue was useless so they would ban me from playing one.
You forgot to answer a question before you left.
And the question is:
By the way, what does a monk contribute that a rogue doesn't exactly?
This right here is just straight up lies.I would love to agree and say, "Play what you will."
As a matter of fact I do.
However the poster of this thread made this to prove to the group that rogue was useless so they would ban me from playing one.
You forgot to answer a question before you left.
And the question is:
By the way, what does a monk contribute that a rogue doesn't exactly?
He won't try to answer what he can't. Well, he can, but it won't help him in his trolling.
Sorry I was wrong about the feat guys, my bad.
I've had games with no rogue. I don't see the group any more effective with out a rogue than with one. Someone always ends up spending skills, feats, and buying magic items to do the rogues job at the detriment of their own class which balances out the gains they get from having say having a Barbarian instead of rogue. It all works in the end.
This could probably be a decent thread if restarted, since rogues are the most versatile class that is also expected to be realistic. But I don't think feeding RamboJesus's trolling is the best way to conduct it.
The irony...
Yeah, it will Ruin your lifeNow what about Two-Face's alignment?Oh dammitall do not link that site.
Don't tell me i was the one who first linked you to that page in the Monk's Guide
Yawar
Let's hear it for DM fiat!I would love to agree and say, "Play what you will."
As a matter of fact I do.
However the poster of this thread made this to prove to the group that rogue was useless so they would ban me from playing one.
Too late! This apparently useless rogue stole it!
Wait... DPR is all that matters? No one told me!
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Rogues at a glance look ok but in practice they are bad. They don't do well in combat compared fighters barbs etc they also don't disable device all that well compared to the groups ability to open doors and activate traps. Discuss plox
I have been all through the books and the discussion forums about rogue skills and it seems that you can indeed take a single level of rogue and then apply your total HD to the acquired skills. This rules discrepancy makes leveling a Rogue a pointless waste of time. Since essentially it is the same as taking 1 level of wizard and gaining every spell and every level. The entire class is bought for a SINGLE level and the only thing left exclusively to the Rogue is a collection of little talents.
This essentially makes Rogues obsolete.
I removed an older post that used unacceptable language.
Rogues at a glance look ok but in practice they are bad. They don't do well in combat compared fighters barbs etc they also don't disable device all that well compared to the groups ability to open doors and activate traps. Discuss ploxI have been all through the books and the discussion forums about rogue skills and it seems that you can indeed take a single level of rogue and then apply your total HD to the acquired skills. This rules discrepancy makes leveling a Rogue a pointless waste of time. Since essentially it is the same as taking 1 level of wizard and gaining every spell and every level. The entire class is bought for a SINGLE level and the only thing left exclusively to the Rogue is a collection of little talents.
This essentially makes Rogues obsolete.
They still get more talent points than anyone else, and sneak attack (meh)and a lot of those rogue talents are very good and unique. Nonetheless I agree that Rogues are sort of bottom of the barrel right now, along with Monks and Cavaliers.
Rogues work very well indeed.
Learn to play.
Actually I was just thinking about this again after looking at the vivisectionist.
We now have an alchemist that has two good saves, sixth spell level "casting" and the mutagen, plus discoveries and bonuses with/against poisons as well as 'decent' skill points and skill choices -- on top of sneak attack.
It puts the rogue in a very awkward position -- he only has one good save, but does have double the number of base skill points. His talents are... not on par with the new discoveries, however he does gain some class functions that work like them (uncanny dodge compared to preserve organs for example), but it is really hard to argue for the rogue once the mutagen and extracts come out.
Actually I was just thinking about this again after looking at the vivisectionist.
We now have an alchemist that has two good saves, sixth spell level "casting" and the mutagen, plus discoveries and bonuses with/against poisons as well as 'decent' skill points and skill choices -- on top of sneak attack.
It puts the rogue in a very awkward position -- he only has one good save, but does have double the number of base skill points. His talents are... not on par with the new discoveries, however he does gain some class functions that work like them (uncanny dodge compared to preserve organs for example), but it is really hard to argue for the rogue once the mutagen and extracts come out.
An alchemist is a better rogue, basically put.
Alchemist suffers from one big problem-- they get something *and* spells every single level. Just look at the amount of things they get. Every single level, new spells. Every odd level, a feat and another d6 of bombs. Every even level, a discovery. 6 out of 4 even levels, they also get an ability or passive bonus.
If you want to melee? Vivisectionist, and now you have sneak attack, but why would you? Bombs are ranged sneak attacks that don't require you to flank or catch enemies flat footed, hit touch AC, and do damage that bypasses DR and uncanny dodge while also splashing damage to everyone around the person you sneak attack. And the biggest problem-- "Oh, the alchemist only has x and x bombs" is solved by being frugal with your bombs and using something like, I don't know, chakrams or any other throwing weapon when you're not throwing bombs.
I mean, the rogue can sneak attack all day long. But then rogue gets into CRs with large opponents. And then suddenly the bomb alchemist can make his bombs do force damage and knock enemies prone on Reflex saves. And now suddenly the rogue can run up, dual-wielding, hoping to hit, and the alchemist will *always* hit. They have a guarantee to hit with their bombs much like a fighter has a guarantee to hit with his first attack.
I played a rogue (and then a ninja) next to a bombs alchemist, and it honestly would just straight invalidate entire encounters. I actually had to roll well to hit, and late in the campaign thanks to mind control the bomb alchemist was hitting my character, completely dex focused, on 2s.
Like, here's how to be a better rogue as an alchemist than a rogue:
1) Ask the GM if you can buy a magic item that can detect magic, or have a friend detect magic
2) Take the dispelling bombs discovery
3) Put ranks in disable device for mundane traps
#$^@!@$%~ing alchemists.
Just to answe the OP's original stament, i my curent pbp te rogue has clearlt out performed the fighter in terms of kill and damage inficted.And was built as a charismatic skill monkey. She even has a tail. :P
Now I didn't read more then the first page because I am so not getting into this again (there are much more pressing matters I must attend to regarding classes).
But Moorluck..... How in the 9 hells did you manage to butcher this mans sentence so badly when you quoted it? I am genuinely curious. I am aware it already had some grammatical errors but I mean... how did you make it worse??
the alchemist only has so many bombs per day. any bombs spent dispelling magical traps are bombs not spent in combat.
and the int bonus only applies to thrown splash weapons. it doesn't work with chakrams or stuff like that.
the alchemist only has so many extracts as well.
and a dose of mutagen takes a whole hour to brew. that is a whole hour that you can be ambushed. which ruins the effort for making the mutagen. which only lasts about 10 minutes per level
the alchemist only has so many bombs per day. any bombs spent dispelling magical traps are bombs not spent in combat.
and the int bonus only applies to thrown splash weapons. it doesn't work with chakrams or stuff like that.
the alchemist only has so many extracts as well.
and a dose of mutagen takes a whole hour to brew. that is a whole hour that you can be ambushed. which ruins the effort for making the mutagen. which only lasts about 10 minutes per level
Did you seriously just say 'He only has so many of them?'
Wizards and clerics are considered some of the most powerful classes. They, too, only have 'so many' spells.
Wait until an alchemist has sticky bombs, can give himself extracts of haste, or is attacking large or huge creatures. Around level 10 is when the alchemist basically becomes a god. He can't miss a lot of monsters, even on 2s, when taking precise shot penalties, all thanks to things like haste, mutagen, throw anything, or the biggest culprit, attacking touch.
why bother trying to emulate a cheap knockoff of a rogue when you can just play a rogue?
please tell me how you beleive an alchemist can completely replace a rogue with the following guidelines
elite array
10th level
no custom items
no traits
a description of function must be provided. as must a completed build.
a build must be provided for what you beleive is a rogue doing the rogue thing that the alchemist is trying to replace. this second build must follow the exact same guidelines.
why bother trying to emulate a cheap knockoff of a rogue when you can just play a rogue?
please tell me how you beleive an alchemist can completely replace a rogue with the following guidelines
elite array
10th level
no custom items
no traits
a description of function must be provided. as must a completed build.
a build must be provided for what you beleive is a rogue doing the rogue thing that the alchemist is trying to replace. this second build must follow the exact same guidelines.
Shouldn't you also have to provide a competing rogue. That way you can't try to pick it apart with your own build after the fact.
For the purpose of this experiment you and the competitor should be assumed to have a cleric, fighter, and wizard in the party, IMO.
Whoa, thread necromancy ftw!
Anyways: between a Bard, an Alchemist and, soon to come, a Ninja, there is no real need for a Rogue.
For those who want a rogue to be a dpr machine.
Rogue 12 (Scout, Thug archetypes)
Fighter 8 (WeaponMaster)
Go Conrugan Smash and TWF.
Between Auto Intimidate Check on Power Attack (shaken)
Brutal Beating (Sickened)
and Befuddling Strike the enemy takes -6 to hit you (-2saves, -4 to attack allies)
Take Offensive Defense (+6AC from SA).
Tank like a champ.
Scout Charge and Conrugan Smash has you SA all the time, no flank required.
6d6 SA using Subtle Shortswords (Which you took Gtr Wpn Fcs, Wpn Training and Duelist Gloves.
Multiclassing rocks
Rogues aren't useless they just the least optimal choice for a party. They can contribute they just don't do it well. We play tested the Ninja in our game along with a rogue, now that's what the rogue should be. The Ninja wasn't over power but made the rogue left wanting.
Actually I was just thinking about thisI mean, the rogue can sneak attack all day long. But then rogue gets into CRs with large opponents. And then suddenly the bomb alchemist can make his bombs do force damage and knock enemies prone on Reflex saves. And now suddenly the rogue can run up, dual-wielding, hoping to hit, and the alchemist will *always* hit. They have a guarantee to hit with their bombs much like a fighter has a guarantee to hit with his first attack.
This is admittedly a nitpick, but EVERYONE always has at least a 5% chance of missing (i.e., rolling a 1). There is no such thing as a guaranteed hit. :)
My thought is that if you're judging the rogue purely on combat capability, you're not judging the rogue fairly. Rogues can be THE best class to play depending on the TYPE of campaign and the play style involved (as, probably, can any class, to be fair). With the rogue versus the alchemist, at a glance I would say that the alchemist seems to have more, but the alchemist constantly has to worry about resource management (as one of Shuriken's posts notes) but the rogue's abilities are largely endless and unlimited and only very slightly gear reliant (thieves tools are nice to have).Ultimately it's about what you want to play and what you personally find fun.
I'm sorry for going off topic, but is there anyway to open up a thread that says 0 posts and can't be accessed? I posted 2 threads this morning and neither of them will open.
You want to post this in this thread here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizo/websiteFeedback/0PostThreads
(Located in Website feedback, where you should generally report such problems. :) )
How useful a rogue is is almost completely dependent on what type of campaign you are running. To figure it out, here are some questions you could ask yourself:
Is your campaign combat-heavy? The more combat is emphasized in the game over other elements, the less useful the rogue is. Not useless, with Sneak Attack, but less useful then martial classes and casters
Do you make a lot of skill checks? Rogues are the best skill monkeys - if you rarely make skill checks, they have fewer opportunities to shine.
Is Stealth a viable option in your game? Some GMs make it very hard to use Stealth by including tons of encounters with creatures having high Perception checks. If yours does, the rogue is less useful. GMs can also reward scouting more by giving more useful information for potential scouts. If yours does, rogues are more useful.
Do you use the 15-minute adventuring day? If casters are allowed to rest whenever they want to recover spells, rogues are less useful, as many of their powers can be replicated by spells. However, longer adventuring days mean the casters run out of those spells, while the rogue never runs out of his abilities.
Do the other players choose options/spells that duplicate or replace rogue abilities? If so, the rogue is less useful.
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Do you make a lot of skill checks? Rogues are the best skill monkeys - if you rarely make skill checks, they have fewer opportunities to shine.
I'd say bards and rangers are at least as good. They also have access to spells for even more utility without using expendable items through UMD (which the bard usually does better anyway).
Do you make a lot of skill checks? Rogues are the best skill monkeys - if you rarely make skill checks, they have fewer opportunities to shine.I'd say bards and rangers are at least as good. They also have access to spells for even more utility without using expendable items through UMD (which the bard usually does better anyway).
And Inquisitors who happen to have a very rogue like set of class skills to boot.
I think that's the problem though. The APG boosted Bards and made them better with a better spell list and some archetypes like Arcane Duelist for combat oriented Bard. The Ranger got the Urban Ranger with Trap Spotting. Then add the Inquisitor and Alchemist to the mix. Next the UM added all kinds of goodies to these classes.
What did the rogue get? Some more talents that aren't all the useful for the most part and so options to swap out trap spotting or evasion with Archetypes.
Of course the UC book is due out in August. I'm hoping some real rogue love appears there. The Ninja may cause that based what I saw playing it. Now that's a rogue.
why bother trying to emulate a cheap knockoff of a rogue when you can just play a rogue?
The rogue is the cheap knock off of the alchemist, in this case.
The Rogue
Male human rogue 10
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4 Senses Perception +18
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 natural)
hp 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +7, Ref +14, Will +7;
Defensive Abilities evasion
-Offense---------------------------------
Spd 40 ft.
Melee +2 shortsword +12 (1d6+3/19-20 x2)
Or +2 shortsword +10/+10/+5/+5 (1d6+3, 1d6+2/19-20 x2)
Special Attacks sneak attack 5d6
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 24
Feats Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Step Up, Following Step, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills Acrobatics +16, Bluff +12, Climb +15, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (planes) +13, Linguistics +16, Perception +18 (+23 to locate traps), Stealth +16, Swim +13 and Use Magic Device +12
Languages Common, Azlanti, Varisian, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Aklo, Polyglot, Ignan, Aquan, Auran, Terran
Gear climber’s kit, masterwork thieves’ tools, mithral chain shirt, +2 short sword, +2 short sword, belt of incredible dexterity +2, headband of vast intelligence +2 (Knowledge: [Planes]), +2 mithral chain shirt, +2 cloak of resistance, +2 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, boots of striding and springing, eyes of the eagle, +1 silver heavy mace, mwk hand crossbow, assorted goods (~4,000gp worth)
Special Abilities rogue talents (trap spotter, slow reactions, expert leaper, fast stealth), advanced rogue talent (opportunist), trapfinding, trap sense +3, improved uncanny dodge
The rogue is built to be able to both damage in melee combat with two-weapon wielding and to be an acrobatic scout. +23 to see traps means I am seeing traps. +23 to Disable Device means I am disabling those traps. On top of that, the high Perception and DD should have other uses, like detecting ambushes, or noticing clues and unlocking doors to get to them. I took Iron Will to shore up for my bad Will save, but you could easily replace it with other feats. I also took the first two in the Step Up chain so that if an enemy steps out of stealth I can tumble directly back into flank. With Step Up and Strike next level, whenever an enemy five-foot steps out of flank, I can tumble back into flank and sneak attack them. My AC is kind of bad, but I used the NPC wealth guidelines to divvy up items. Let's not talk about how my acrobatics is near-maxed, but I have to roll 15s to beat monster CMDs straight out of the bestiary.
The Alchemist (before)
Male human alchemist 10
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6 Senses Perception +19
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 natural)
hp 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +6
Immunity poison
-Offense---------------------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 spiked gauntlet +7/+2 (1d4+1)
Ranged bomb +11/+6 (5d6+6) splash 11
Or +2 longbow +12/+7 (1d8 /x3)
Special Attacks bomb 5d6+11 18/day
Extracts Prepared (CL 10th)
1 – 7 ~3 empty slots, shield, cure light wounds, bomber's eye, reduce person, disguise self
2 – 6 ~1 empty slot, barkskin, false life, see invisibility, alter self, alchemical allocation
3 – 4 ~1 empty slot, haste, fly, heroism
4 – 2 ~1 empty slot, freedom of movement
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Extra Bombs, Improved Initiative, Brew Potion, Throw Anything; Extra Discovery (explosive bombs), Extra Discovery (extend potion), Extra Discovery (infusion), Extra Discovery (force bombs)
Skills Appraise +19, Craft (alchemy) +20, Disable Device +16, Knowledge (arcana) +19, Knowledge (nature) +19, Knowledge (planes) +16, Knowledge (religion) +16, Perception +19, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +10, Survival +14, Use Magic Device +12
Languages Common, Draconic, Celestial, Aklo, Polyglot
Gear climber’s kit, masterwork thieves’ tools, belt of incredible dexterity +2, headband of vast intelligence +4, +2 mithral chain shirt, +2 cloak of resistance, +2 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, eyes of the eagle, boots of striding and springing, +1 spiked gauntlet, wand of detect magic, lesser bracers of archery, +2 longbow (7,000~ gold of miscellaneous goods)
Special Abilities swift poisoning, swift alchemy, poison use, mutagen (+4 Dex/-2 Wis/+2 natural armor, 100 minutes), discovery (precise bombs, explosive bombs, frost bombs, extend potion, dispelling bombs, infusion, fast bombs, force bombs)
The strange thing about that mundane rogue is that he has a big acrobatics and climb, but still has to roll well to do difficult tumbles and climbs. Well, first off, the alchemist can fly. Soon he can fly for hours. As far as scouting, the alchemist can take one minute to prepare an extract of invisibility which can, in turn, give him +30 to stealth (right now, I have 9 cross-class ranks invested in it). For 500gp, I could just make a potion of invisiblity with a CL of 10 that lasts for 20 minutes, cutting down my prep time to turn into a better scout than the rogue down to 2 rounds from 10. Speaking of potions, what better what to show your party that you love them than crafting them a bunch of extended haste potions? Speaking of that, I have infusion, so I can hand my extracts out to my party, and a bunch of empty slots, so I can take any of the highly situational spells like Remove Curse or Remove Blindness/Deafness or tongues and hand them out as well. Who needs ranks in linguistics when you can spend 10 rounds to make a potion to invalidate that? And on the topic of "who needs this", who needs feats? Without precise shot I should be doing pretty hot at this level, since ACs for me are routinely 5 to 10 points lower anyways. If they're resistant to fire, then force bombs-- nothing says 'hilarious' like a creature with a 49 CMD (58 vs trip) and a +8 reflex save taking a dive right next to the fighter. How will I know it's resistant to fire? Well, I have knowledges-- nature, arcana, planes and religion. That's three more than the rogue who has to do things like spend skill points to be able to climb mountains, talk to the natives, swim, or scout. Oh, and has anyone read alchemical allocation recently? You know how you get all of those useless little potions throughout adventure paths? Well, if we get hurt, I can help you out with alchemical allocation-- which lets you drink a potion and just spit it right back out, keeping the extremely valuable potion for just 10 rounds of prep time. And if it looks like we won't have prep time in the future, well, I'll just prep some stuff right now, if you guys don't mind, while we talk tactics.
Oh, and traps. Well, traps.
CR 12 trap right out of the Core Rulebook: DC 25 to spot, DC 20 to disarm. Well... I... 6 to see, 4 to disarm it. Um, well. That's not hard. I wonder if magical traps are harder? Well, I dig out my wand of detect magic when we get somewhere where it looks like there might be magical traps-- if someone seriously leaves magic traps in the middle of a dirt road in a peasant farming community, something is wrong here and we need to stop and save these people from the invisible wizards-- or, since I mentioned we have a wizard, I lean over, nudge him, ask him to use detect magic and to tell me if anything glows funny or weird. I have to roll an 8 to get the wand working and it works for 1 minute, so probably enough to carefully walk around and check out things. With the wizard doing it, it's much easier. That way I can just dispel bomb squares he tells me to. I won't have to roll over an 11 to dispel most stuff, anyways.
The Alchemist (after mutagen and long-term [over 30 minutes duration] dungeon prep, one round into combat)
Using: see invisibility, heroism, haste, mutagen and barkskin
Male human alchemist 10
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8 Senses Perception +19; See Invisibility
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 32, touch 19, flat-footed 25 (+6 armor, +6 Dex, +2 deflection, +7 natural, +1 haste)
hp 83 (10d8+30);
Fort +13, Ref +17, Will +7
Immunity poison
-Offense---------------------------------
Spd 60 ft.
Melee +1 spiked gauntlet +7/+7/+2 (1d4+1)
Ranged bomb +16/+16/+11 (5d6+6), splash 11
Or +2 longbow +17/+17/+12 (1d8 /x3)
Special Attacks bomb 5d6+11 18/day
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 19
Skills +2 to all skills
Special Abilities swift poisoning, swift alchemy, poison use, mutagen (+4 Dex/-2 Wis/+2 natural armor), discovery (precise bombs, explosive bombs, frost bombs, extend potion, dispelling bombs, infusion, fast bombs, force bombs)
Now, here's me at my highest. I probably notice the surprise round, while our Big Dumb Fighter and God Wizard don't. I'll drink an extract of haste-- but to be honest, if the wizard already told me or I knew he'd probably cast it, I'd just drink an extract of reduce person. +1 to AC and +1 to attack puts my bonuses even higher, just in case I actually, god forbid, run into a monk of some kind. But, well, we'll assume the wizard is doing something else right now-- probably not being grappled because I can make him an extract of freedom of movement-- but he's definitely being attacked. Oh, and if they're more than 20 feet away, I guess I could also bomber's eye to increase range-- not like its needed, with ACs being around the 8 to 14 range for touch from CRs 8 to 12.
Well, right now, within 2 CR up and down of the Alchemist, including precise shot penalties, here are the lowest and highest rolls I'll have to make on these attacks:
-8 on a d20 for the Treant (not counting the giant slug, that's cheating)
5 on a d20 for the Elder Air Elemental
So, highest total roll I'd have to get is a 5 and a 10 to hit the air elemental from 20 feet away. Since most creatures are between 12 and 14 AC, this means I can roll a 2 (19) and another 2 (14) and hit them twice reliably. The best part is that if I miss, it doesn't just go away like a normal attack-- no, it haunts us by deviating into other squares and blowing up anyways, forcing the enemy and anyone around him to save for minimum damage even though he missed. Usually you have to hit a monster to deal damage to him, but not any more! If a melee character hits a monster and gets unlucky, an alchemist can probably almost out-DPR them with misses.
So, here's where I also sneak attack better than the rogue. See, rogues are tied down by things like "actually having to hit AC" and "actually having to be near the monster," archaic designs such as "needing to flank" or "having to break DR." On top of that, there are entire types of creatures immune to a rogue's sneak attack, such as oozes, ghosts, or spaghetti creatures. Well, the alchemist doesn't care about getting in position, or trying to eke out a full attack. He's always in position and can always full attack! On top of that, he attacks touch AC, which is pretty nifty considering he's alsogot3/4thsbabandgetsweaponfocusforfreeinthrowanything *cough* *harrumph*. On top of that, bombs ignore DR. With my pretty decently high knowledges, I can identify rare CR10 creatures (DC25) on 6s and 9s (for planes), which isn't bad. Since this isn't an action, and if I beat the DC I can ask about a bit of useful information, let's ask for resistances and immunities. And if I don't make the check and it looks rough, well-- I'll just force bomb it!
Not a big difference-- and force bomb knocks them prone, too, which makes meeting extremely interesting unique creatures and killing them even more fun.
"Alchemist-- alchemist! What was that creature? What did it do? I've never seen anything like it, and it didn't get to do a single thing before you knocked it prone and we were able to surround it. I dare say we'll never see another creature such as it again!"
"I don't know, son. All I know is that it was resistant to fire and immune to electricity and sonic damage."
So, what DOES the rogue do better than the alchemist would be a much shorter question, wouldn't it? I could probably come up with an answer a lot faster than this garbled mess of stat blocks and semi-storytelling. Ah, I've got it!
The rogue is better at dying.
I once saw an aligment chart which had batman in i for all possible outcomes XD.
So batman's all aligments....he just picks any that suit him from his bat belt.
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On those examples:
Wow that Rogue picked the worst Rogue talents you can for combat. Replace them with Finesse Rogue, Combat Trick, Weapon Training, and Offensive Defense and you can throw on three extra Feats (Dodge, Weapon Focus-Short Sword, and say, Outflank, which he takes along with a Fighter buddy) as well as +5 AC during any turn he hits with any of them, and throw in a Wand of Shield.
He can also definitely afford to have Dex 22 if the Alchemist can afford Int 22...though he might need to drop his Ring of Protection to +1 to do it.
That'll up his AC to 25. 29 with a round to prep, 34 if he hit someone last round and his attack to +12/+12/+7/+7 and with Outflank (which he'll be using a whole lot), effectively to +16/+16/+11/+11.
All that took me only a few minutes and (except for the Wand of Shield, which is cheap) uses no notable reources.
So that looks quite comparable if you make the Rogue pretty combat-focused. Now the Alchemist can hit against Touch AC and has other advantages...but so does the Rogue.
I think our group noticed the issues with the Rogue when we play tested the Ninja. At first look we thought it was over powered as it was all rogue and then some. In play the Ninja was able to contribute a bit more but not over powered at all. After that the rogue just hasn't looked good since. It's still a viable class and fun to play but you just know it could a bit better like the Ninja.
Now, here's me at my highest. I probably notice the surprise round,
Quick question: if you're being surprised, how would know to buff yourself beforehand -- with 5 buffs no less, and ergo 5 rounds of buffing before combat starts?
I'm nitpicking, yes, but I'm having trouble imagining the scenario.
And if your alchemist is able to have 5 buffs, what is the rogue doing during those 5 rounds while the alchemist is buffing himself? Surely not picking his nose. More likely, if the whole party is buffing, then the Rogue is going to end up with comparable buffs on his own person via party members, potions, and Use Magic Device. As you also have the alchemist working with the party wizard to help be buffed, there is no reason the rogue cannot do the same thing. This is after all a cooperative game.
Your builds are interesting and show the differences and similarities between the rogue and the alchemist. The alchemist appears more versatile for a shorter period of time (for as long as he has extracts and mutegens available); the rogue can be more well rounded on the long term. Both have decent fighting skill for a d8 hit die class, each dealing damage in a different way (though the alchemist may run out of bombs whereas the rogue will not run out of sneak attack. The tradeoff is that the rogue has to play more tactically--i.e., flank or be concealed--whereas the alchemist has to manage his resources more carefully).
Your accompanying narrative clearly favors the alchemist, but it fails to note the hurdles the alchemist may have to face to perform at his best--having the time and materials to buff and prepare extracts. Likewise you note most of the hurdles the rogue has to face while not acknowledging the rogue's advantages.
Also your Rogue build also has an error in your Acrobatics calculation--IF you maxed out Acrobatics (which I assume you did if you want him to be good at it), the Acrobatics bonus should be 10 ranks + 3 class bonus + 5 Dexterity = +18 (there shouldn't be an ACP from the mithral chain shirt) (+23 to jump with the boots of striding and springing). Didn't check the other skills. Could also swap the boots for boots of elvenkind--lowers speed, but then you get a flat out +5 to all Acrobatics checks, which would improve your chances of bypassing enemy CMD greatly if that is the goal. An acrobatics focused rogue could also take ledge walker to be able to move farther while using acrobatics.
As for your trapfinding narrative: the rogue, if wanting to be the best at trapfinding, could take trapspotter (an ability the alchemist cannot duplicate without using UMD to activate an item of find traps). You mentioned detect magic, which the rogue could also take as a minor magic talent, or just like the alchemist does in your narrative, use a wand of detect magic with UMD. They can come out more or less the same here, and the rogue can come out slightly better if he focuses on it (probably depends on the needs of the campaign as to whether it's important or not). The alchemist can do it, yes. I don't see that minimizing the rogue's role, however.
Rogues don't need to beat you down in combat if they develop contacts in their city and pay the entire assassin's guild to kill you with a couple of IOU favours called in because you've done stuff for them.
That's just a benefit any class can gain by role playing. It's not the domain of rogues only. I always play my character like that. I find all combat dungeon crawling kind of dull. I like to interact in the setting playing politics where I gain favors and enemies exacting my influence in the area.
I think our group noticed the issues with the Rogue when we play tested the Ninja. At first look we thought it was over powered as it was all rogue and then some. In play the Ninja was able to contribute a bit more but not over powered at all. After that the rogue just hasn't looked good since. It's still a viable class and fun to play but you just know it could a bit better like the Ninja.
A lot of awesome stuff the rogue could have, have been stripped from him and put somewhere else. See as an example the Master Spy, Assassin and Shadowdancer prestige classes*.
In other instances you can take either an iconic ability or another. See Trapfinding or Poison Use.
Finally, there is no so much love for him in the equipment. See in 3.5 flask sneak attack, gone. See how could have been cool and iconic the Garrote if allowed adding Sneak Attack damage.
I don't think that the rogue "sucks" but definitively needs some love.
* They are fun and I don't think should be removed (they can create interesting concept, think about a Fighter or paladin dipping SD), but let's think to the base classes first!
I think our group noticed the issues with the Rogue when we play tested the Ninja. At first look we thought it was over powered as it was all rogue and then some. In play the Ninja was able to contribute a bit more but not over powered at all. After that the rogue just hasn't looked good since. It's still a viable class and fun to play but you just know it could a bit better like the Ninja.A lot of awesome stuff the rogue could have, have been stripped from him and put somewhere else. See as an example the Master Spy, Assassin and Shadowdancer prestige classes*.
In other instances you can take either an iconic ability or another. See Trapfinding or Poison Use.
Finally, there is no so much love for him in the equipment. See in 3.5 flask sneak attack, gone. See how could have been cool and iconic the Garrote if allowed adding Sneak Attack damage.
I don't think that the rogue "sucks" but definitively needs some love.
* They are fun and I don't think should be removed (they can create interesting concept, think about a Fighter or paladin dipping SD), but let's think to the base classes first!
I agree, the Rogue really needs some love. The fighter, Monk, and Barbarian got it in the APG. The Rogue really didn't get much, a few more talents of which most I wouldn't take and the archetypes nothing special. I mean rogues have a lot of class feature but they only swap out trap sense/trap Finding or Uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge. Lots of other stuff could have been swapped out for interesting and efficient combos. I have high hopes for the Ultimate Combat. If they can make the rogue anything like the Ninja then we have something worth bragging about.
Now, here's me at my highest. I probably notice the surprise round,Quick question: if you're being surprised, how would know to buff yourself beforehand -- with 5 buffs no less, and ergo 5 rounds of buffing before combat starts?
4. Outside. While people are making survival checks, knowledge checks, and talking. I'm talking about like, ambushes, and creatures who hear us coming and hide to get the drop on us, not like... oh, here's the market, what a quaint day, look dear pigeons, oh a ninja kind of ambushes. Those are special and the alchemist is in a bit of a bind when that happens, since most of his extracts are probably for everyday use.
All of the buffs last 100 minutes, and if they were extended potions I could make some last 200 if I felt like it. It honestly doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a giant black castle, dark cave or field of bones and think to yourself "I should buff myself and the party." It's like the fighter not taking his weapon out.
And if your alchemist is able to have 5 buffs, what is the rogue doing during those 5 rounds while the alchemist is buffing himself? Surely not picking his nose. More likely, if the whole party is buffing, then the Rogue is going to end up with comparable buffs on his own person via party members, potions, and Use Magic Device. As you also have the alchemist working with the party wizard to help be buffed, there is no reason the rogue cannot do the same thing. This is after all a cooperative game.
All of those spells on the alchemist are from the alchemist. The thing is that I can do them, and give out spells to everyone else-- the rogue can't, and if we're taking each class at its face value, he can just kind of sit there and watch. The rogue has to buy those spells. Anyone could buy those spells or take a trait for UMD. The alchemist could also buy those spells. If the rogue buys a wand of shield, like a previous example, then the alchemist can too, and skip out on having to make an extract of it. May as well claim the alchemist should have 4 more AC-- he can, by the way, because he has shield as an extract, but it's not up. I wouldn't use shield until I'd gotten through at least one combat and was about to open an ominous door.
Finesse Rogue, Combat Trick, Weapon Training, and Offensive Defense
Unique class features for feats, and then I also have to ask the fighter to take a feat with me. I didn't really think that my build could also include companion coercion, though I did include it a bit in the alchemist along with the parts about the wizard. I'm a bit loathe to trade unique class features for feats. "You can make an enemy not take AoOs, get double rolls on traps when you get within 10 feet, or be able to make every jump as if you had a running start... or have +1 to hit or AC!" Well, not taking AoOs has actually saved people's lives before when +1 to hit or AC wouldn't have mattered, trapspotter detected traps that would've greatly inconvenienced our level 2 characters, and being able to jump as if I had a running start was really useful for scouting around a ruined city. I dunno-- that's just my personal opinion.
Also you took Weapon Focus twice there. Which is cool. But kind of wrong.
And, about the +4 int headband-- no. The Rogue has 4,000 gold left over after all of the purchases, and it's assumed most of that is tied up in resources like potions, a horse, a wand or two. If he trades his ring down to +1, he gains 6,000 gold. Now he has 10,000 gold. He could spend it all on that belt and go into debt or something, but now he's right near WBL and can't have that wand of shield you want.
Offensive Defense sucks on my end. I suppose it's been errata'd into something magnificent (been meaning to re-download all of the PDFs I have for errata), and that actually looks much cooler than bleeding attack, to be honest.
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The rogue talents in the APG are remarkably weak. The so-called "Powerful sneak" talent is shockingly bad. It is the worst class ability in the whole game. I wouldn't want it even if I got it free.
I agree, the Rogue really needs some love. The fighter, Monk, and Barbarian got it in the APG. The Rogue really didn't get much, a few more talents of which most I wouldn't take and the archetypes nothing special.
Yes, Powerful Sneak is horrible. Post errata Offensive Defense is pretty good, though.