I was perusing the monk character and ran across the abundant step ability and got a little excited, what a cool ablility. I started searching this forum to see what others thought of this ability and found that most people don't like it much because they think it ends your turn.
I don't think I agree with this interpretation.
Yes, the spell dimension door ends your turn, I agree. However, I don't think this ability does.
It states that using this ability is a move action, which means you still have an attack action and/or any other immediate actions blah blah blah.
Yes it does state that it is 'as if using the dimension door spell'. But that statement could just as easily read 'similar to using dd spell'.
I think they reference the dd spell to use as a guide for range and duration. They say the abilitiy is a move action where the spell is a standard action to cast, they contradict themselves because the ability supersedes the spell, since the monk can't cast the spell anyway. The monk can't take any creatures with him while using this ability but in the spell you can, why? Who cares, but same thing here applies, the monk rule supersedes the spell rule.
So the ability is a move action which leaves an action for an attack.
I haven't talked to my GM about this yet, what do you all think?
No, the problem is dimension door itself specifies that you can't take any other actions after casting it. Third sentence into the description.
You do have the option of attacking first, then teleporting to safety.
While waiting for an official clarification (another one... is somebody making a list?), this issue will need discussion with your local GM.
Why? Because there are opinions both ways, and both ways are logical. Seriously... a monk being able to use a move action to escape but not able to use it to attack... that's not coherent with a melee-oriented character.
What's to clarify?
Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.
Dimension Door
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired - whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
It's pretty clear. If you use Abundant Step, your turn ends. So you better take all your other actions first.
Dimension Door works out to be a bit odd in any case. Via the Monk ability, the monk only needs a move action, but can't attack afterwards. Via the spell, a caster needs a standard action, but can't move afterwards.
But I really don't see a need for further clarification on abundant step. It works like dimension door, which means it also ends your turn.
What I would like to see clarified is the "as if" bit.
In common discussion, using "X as if Y" doesn't mean that everything from Y transfers to X. If it was meant to imply that "X is Y" or "X equals Y" or "everything from Y applies to X", the "as if" bit is fuzzy, blurry, and incomplete.
All instance of "as if" in the rules (including wildshape) could have been more precisely defined by using something like "This ability works exactly as the spell X, except for the following changes..."
Or even better IMHO, copy/paste the spell's description into the ability. After all, it is not a SLA. And the added text could be read before delivery to ensure that it isn't inconsistent with the class. As I said before, I don't find logical for a character designed to attack to have a move-equivalent ability used only to flee (or as a utility). And I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that.
In common discussion, using "X as if Y" doesn't mean that everything from Y transfers to X.
In common discussion, it's usually used metaphorically. The literal meaning, however, is exactly that.
The reason for the "as if" is because it's not excatly like the spell. The ability describes how it's different, ie. move action rather then standard action. If there is ever a difference it will be stated in the ability section, all other information regarding the spell it's "as if" can be found in the spell itself.
I understand.
I understand that RAW (Pathfinder and 3.5) imply that you stop acting after the spell. Even hasted? I don't find it logical, that's all.
On top of that, Paizo downgraded the monk's ability (now they can't take people with them) while upgrading the action's cost (standard to move). It would have stood to reason to allow a standard action afterwards. As a tactical offensive ability, it is almost useless.
I have personally used the Abundant Step as Otsego would do (allowing a standard action even after using it) during the High Level Beta Playtest, and the results were very cool and dynamic (Monk abundant-stepping on a flying dragon and starting to hit it).
Was it legitimate by rules? I personally don't know, but the fact that a power is a Supernatural ability and not a spell-like is (at least for me) a decisive factor.
A spell-like ability is exactly like the spell it simulates, and all the exceptions have to be mentioned (like the Greater Teleport ability of Devils and Demons, which does not allow to bring other creatures).
A supernatural ability is based on a spell, and then has its own 'personal twists'. Abundant Step specifies that you cannot bring other creatures with you (while DD does) and that requires a move action (while DD needs a standard action). It doesn't specify that you end your action after using Abundant Step, however.
The key definition, for me, is that Abundant Step doesn't say "At 12th level or higher a Monk can use the Dimension Door spell as a supernatural ability, except that he cannot take other creatures with him and that it requires only a move action to activate (instead of a standard action)", it says "At 12th level or higher a Monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell Dimension Door. Using this ability(...) "
I agree however that an official answer would be better. For the time being, I will continue to use it as I always had, however - call it a house rule, if you want...
Just my 2c.
The key definition, for me, is that Abundant Step doesn't say "At 12th level or higher a Monk can use the Dimension Door spell as a supernatural ability, except that he cannot take other creatures with him and that it requires only a move action to activate (instead of a standard action)", it says "At 12th level or higher a Monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell Dimension Door. Using this ability(...) "
These two constructions are grammatically and mechanically identical, except for the fluff text ("can slip magically between spaces"). The difference between "can use dimension door with the following changes" and "can use this ability as if casting dimension door except for the follow changes" is imaginary.
Monk abundant-stepping on a flying dragon and starting to hit it
Exactly. As you and I see it, you could slip on or next to a flying ennemy and grapple it. It has a cost (Ki points aren't that abundant) and would be a monk's only ability to attack flying creatures efficiently.
However, it seems that RAW would make you fall immediately after appearing in the air. That's why it has to be discussed with the GM if a monk's player envisions tactics like that.
As always, what I write reflects my opinion on the topic, not a definitive ruling on the game.
Thanks for the feedback.
I'll have to houserule it with my GM.
Cheers!
I think the issue here is one of the writing vs the logic. For example, why can a monk attack and then AS, but not AS then attack? Why would it not work backwards and forwards? Of course, I can't think of a reason why a mage couldn't/shouldn't be able to DD and then take a move action, except that it would be a lot of movement? except that a mage could move then cast the spell, right?
edit- Ahhh, I think I see why now. A mage can bring his friends, which means that they could be teleported, and then take actions which could be a little abusive. Still, monk's can't bring friends so I see no reason to limit their actions after AS, especially when mages are casting dimension door 5 levels earlier.
In conclusion, a monk can do a standard action after abundant step?
In conclusion, the consensus tends to lean toward "no", but a few people say "yes". It's a GM call.
In conclusion, a monk can do a standard action after abundant step?In conclusion, the consensus tends to lean toward "no", but a few people say "yes". It's a GM call.The problem is that you can do a move action before or after a standard action.
There are not writer of the original text than can solve this question?
Sometimes, one or another of the editorial team will appear in a thread to state the intent of a specific passage - but it isn't something that can be relied upon.
Sometimes, one or another of the editorial team will appear in a thread to state the intent of a specific passage - but it isn't something that can be relied upon.In conclusion, a monk can do a standard action after abundant step?In conclusion, the consensus tends to lean toward "no", but a few people say "yes". It's a GM call.The problem is that you can do a move action before or after a standard action.
There are not writer of the original text than can solve this question?
Actually James addressed this recently in another thread that I can't find right now. His answer was "no".
The problem is that you can do a move action before or after a standard action.
This is not really a problem, any more than the spell. A Quickened Dimension Door would leave you with a full round action, that you can't use any of.
Paizo is a little unprofessional.
The books are not written clearly and give rise to misunderstandings.
I have the Italian version and there are also spelling errors.
First, you try writing 200,000 words that are all 100% perfectly clear. It's essentially impossible.
Second, I don't believe Paizo is responsible for the translations. They only write the English rulebook, other companies do the translations.
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Seems pretty clear to me. Ability functions as if you cast dimension door, subject to changes unique to monks: (1) uses Move action (2) can't take anyone with you, (3) supernatural.
Even if you go with the Realms dissection of monk powers as stemming from psionics (e.g. explains how they don't break bones when hitting iron golems), the 3.5 psionic description of dimension door says it functions the same as the spell unless otherwise noted.
In literature, I recall reading a D&D themed book where dimension door left one wanting to wretch and hurl, accounting for a literary reason why no one gets to take an action immediately after exiting.