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So, a number of people have contacted Hyrum, Stan! and myself, in forums and private emails, suggesting we re-write the d20 Modern SRD to be a Pathfinder-compatible product. Both Stan! and I have a number of credits in d20 Modern products (both for WotC and 3PP), and it's something that's been on our mind for a while.
The main sticking point is that to get this done right would take a lot of time, and therefore a lot of money. The current state of modern rules is pre-3.5, and there is a ton of feedback available on what worked in the modern rules, and what didn't. We'd need to take time out to look through all of that, discuss and map-out an R&D plan, and only after forming a roadmap for redesign and rule updating could we actually get to writing.
Then there are minor details like commissioning art, layout, print costs, and so on.
This is a huge project for a company our size. As well as our products are doing (and we DO appreciate the support we've received), our coffers aren't deep enough to cover the cost of doing this up-front. During the writing period, we'd need money to cover our expenses. We couldn't undertake both this and our current lines of products without getting some more hands to pitch in, and those hands would need to be paid.
But fans have asked for it, so we want to see if we could do it. One suggested solution to this potential money-crunch was to do it as a patronage project. And there's a lot to be said for that. If fans were willing to pay for a book in advance, in return for copies of the book when it was done, exclusive access to forums where we discuss, debate and update the project as we go along, and maybe even have opportunities to be immortalized as iconics or other NPCs, that would let us give this project the time and attention it deserves.
So we sat down and looked at the amount of money we'd need, as a rough estimate. And we went over it again, to make sure we were neither shortchanging ourselves, nor asking for unneeded funds. And we came up with figures between $65,000 and $75,000.
Assuming an average patronage price of $50 (we'd have different levels, but that would be the baseline for forums access, online discussions, and copies of the book), that means we'd need about 1,400 people to be willing to pay for this book in advance. Given that hardback RPGs don't always sell through 2,000 copy print runs currently, but some blow through 10,000 copies without difficulty, that looks like a big, but not impossible, number.
Now, one of the nice things about patronage is we can get a go/no go before a penny is spent. We can set up a funding process, and give people a month or so to decide if they want to be part of this. But even that would require a business plan, some guaranteed scheduling of our future time, and other general busy-work on our part. We're willing to do that if it looks like there is even the smallest chance the demand for this product meets the level needed to make it work.
So, here's the question. If we do put up a patronage funding option, how many of you foresee being willing to put up money for a project to produce a professionally redesigned, reworked, print and .pdf Pathfinder-compatible version of the modern d20 rules?
I'm not asking for any money now. I just want to see an interest level before we do the work to have funding become an option.
Owen K.C. Stephens
Super Genius Games
Pathfinder-compatible Developer
I am interested. I have 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4 freelance design credits to my name with major third party companies.
Count me in. I have $100.00 dollars put aside, right now.
I hope this takes off!
Peace,
tfad
I would definitely commit money to this venture.
In fact, within my self-imposed limits of internet behavior, I would do everything in my power to make this work.
Post on my long-disused blog. Be a regular commentor with sexy userpics on the design forum. Post playtest reports of my very adult-themed games. Whatever could possible convince people to give you the money to make this
happen.
Please do this.
Nowish.
While I can't say for certain that I'd sign up, I'd definitely think long and hard about it. I've been eying the patronage projects out there and none of them really interest me. OTOH, I have both interest in a d20 Modern refresh and ideas/opinions about it. $50 seems like a reasonable price for patronage of a project of this scope.
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I believe the question was who would participate in the FUNDING of the project.
I'll be watching this thread and reading every post, and any comment pro- con- or sidewise is going to impact our thinking. But yeah, our main question is who is willing to put up money if we put up the patronage page?
And thanks for the qualifier. We already have a few fans offering to be monitors for us on this thread, and honestly I don't see that being needful. The polite opinion and potential correction is great (thanks, Manictao!), but Paizo has it's own monitors. We're just here to see how interested the core crowd is!
You could definately count me in.
I'll be watching this thread and reading every post, and any comment pro- con- or sidewise is going to impact our thinking. But yeah, our main question is who is willing to put up money if we put up the patronage page?
I'll be watching, too. ;^)
And to reiterate what Owen said, this is our Phase 1 assessment ... to see how many people SAY they'll commit money. So the best way you can help is to spread the word about this thread to make sure as many interested parties as possible show up to voice their INTENTION of support.
Phase 2 will, if we get to it, will involve us actually requiring people to COMMIT the funds they promise here. But, to be sure, right now should be the EASY part. If we can't get people to make enough promises (even potentially empty ones) to make it LOOK like there will be sufficient support ... then we may not get to Phase 2.
Not trying to be alarmist here ... I'm just trying to make sure the current situation is clear. Right now the biggest help you can be is to make sure news of this thread spreads.
Count me in.
I'd be very interested in supporting this at the $100 level.
Will you be following the same model as Wolfgang or Rite Publishing to do the patronage?
I'm not sure if this would necessarily apply, but I recently supported a web-comic creator through Kickstarter. It seems like they help manage the fund-raising aspects of starting a new project. Just throwing it out there...
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Will you be following the same model as Wolfgang or Rite Publishing to do the patronage?
We'll certainly be looking at what they've done, but I expect we'll handle ours a little differently. We hope to have print books in stores when all is said and done, for one thing. But those are the kinds of details we'll work out if it looks like initial interest justifies it.
I'm not sure if this would necessarily apply, but I recently supported a web-comic creator through Kickstarter. It seems like they help manage the fund-raising aspects of starting a new project. Just throwing it out there...
Thanks! We'll take a look at it.
Though I do understand the desire to do a high print run rather than a pdf and print on demand, (color interior artwork dives the cost up of course). You might take a look at the Flaming Cobra imprint, I know it worked well for the folks over at Crafty Games.
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Note on Kickstarter (it limits you to Amaazon payments only, no paypal)
yeah, i'd put down $50 to see this happen.
Though I do understand the desire to do a high print run rather than a pdf and print on demand, (color interior artwork dives the cost up of course). You might take a look at the Flaming Cobra imprint, I know it worked well for the folks over at Crafty Games.
Steve Russell
Rite PublishingNote on Kickstarter (it limits you to Amaazon payments only, no paypal)
Thanks Steve! Unfortunately Flaming Cobra isn't an option right now.
Hyrum.
Would the goal be backwards compatibility with the D20 Modern work put out before, or is it solely to be compatible with Pathfinder?
If it's the former, I'll be happy to buy. If it's the latter, I'd have to wait and see.
I'm happy with my WoD, so no thanks
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Would the goal be backwards compatibility with the D20 Modern work put out before, or is it solely to be compatible with Pathfinder?
The goal would be to manage to be as compatible with both as possible while creating the best game we can. There's no way to know how close we think we'd come to that (or if you would agree with our assessment) until we were pretty far along in the process.
And that highlights a few of the issues with a patronage project. Obviously people won't know exactly what they are going to get until it's done, but they have to pay for it before we even start. On the other hand, people willing to put their money in up front are going to have a venue to discuss the design with us as we go along. They are also going to have a pretty strong argument that they are our core customers, and thus who we should be designing for.
On the end I suspect we'd err on the side of being more like Pathfinder than more like old d20 Modern, or why bother with a revision? Certainly I wouldn't allow the fact d20 Modern didn't have a universal Perception skill to convince me not to go that route. But I have a slew of old d20 Modern books and pdfs myself, and I'd love to be able to use them when I was done.
So with that explanation, the question is: Do you see yourself committing money to the project in advance?
Would the goal be backwards compatibility with the D20 Modern work put out before, or is it solely to be compatible with Pathfinder?
My support is not conditional on either of these. Unlike D&D 3rd edition, I don't have a hundred or so d20 Modern books I'd like to keep using, so backwards compatibility is not essential for me.
However, I imagine this kind of discussion will have to wait for phase 2, so I'm just gonna keep-schtum and hope it gets that far. I am really excited at the prospect of this, though.
Peace,
tfad
Hey Owen,
I'm not the biggest fan of d20 Modern and I'm incapable of putting any money towards even an existing product at this time.
That said, I like to see these sort of things and would definitely be interested in purchasing a core book, if such came out in print at a later date and I had cash for RPG products.
d20 Modern in my experience (and I begrudge no one with a different one) has been best for two things, incorporating advanced technology into my DnD world when such is called for, and in internet arguments about whether a single pit fiend could take on the U.S. Army. :-) I hope that whatever changes you make to that system, those elements can be retained.
Would you have an option for patrons to sign up multiple people to receive copies? I might be able to sign up my whole group if they could pay me $25 each for just a pdf, as add-ons to my patronage.
Are you going to take pay-pal, or just credit cards, or what?
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d20 Modern in my experience (and I begrudge no one with a different one) has been best for two things, incorporating advanced technology into my DnD world when such is called for, and in internet arguments about whether a single pit fiend could take on the U.S. Army. :-) I hope that whatever changes you make to that system, those elements can be retained.
As the guy who playtested the Executor Super star Destroyer against Mighty Cthulhu, I certainly have no intention of removing the ability to throw a pit fiend and the U.S Army into the ring of honor and have them duke it out. :D
Owen, Stan!, Hyrum .... since I know I've publicly voiced my opinion on this, I am going to put my money where my mouth is. You know I'm in, and I'm not talking entry level either.
Are you cross posting this to other gaming sites? I know there'll be the crowd that may turn their nose at Pathfinder support, but given that there's no further support for 3.5 aside from OGL 3PP products, we should be going toward the product that has active support for your core audience.
So, yeah, I'm diving head first into the deep end of the pool with you guys. :D
Are you looking at other freelancers or name designers into the project? I have a couple of names based on their previous WotC connections.
Owen, Stan!, Hyrum .... since I know I've publicly voiced my opinion on this, I am going to put my money where my mouth is. You know I'm in, and I'm not talking entry level either.
Are you cross posting this to other gaming sites? I know there'll be the crowd that may turn their nose at Pathfinder support, but given that there's no further support for 3.5 aside from OGL 3PP products, we should be going toward the product that has active support for your core audience.
So, yeah, I'm diving head first into the deep end of the pool with you guys. :D
Are you looking at other freelancers or name designers into the project? I have a couple of names based on their previous WotC connections.
We're going to spread it far and wide, but if you frequent someplace we don't, then by all means tell folks what the plan is. We're going to need a fair amount of people buying into the project to pull this off.
It's too early right now to talk about additional designers, but further down the road I'm sure we'll start talking about it.
Hyrum.
I'd sign up on the first day.
I'd be interested, for sure.
We're going to spread it far and wide, but if you frequent someplace we don't, then by all means tell folks what the plan is. We're going to need a fair amount of people buying into the project to pull this off.
You guys probably already cross posted to the usual suspects. Do the other sites have their own threads or are you trying to lead them all back to here?
You guys probably already cross posted to the usual suspects. Do the other sites have their own threads or are you trying to lead them all back to here?
We're going to spread it far and wide, but if you frequent someplace we don't, then by all means tell folks what the plan is. We're going to need a fair amount of people buying into the project to pull this off.
I started a thread at ENWorld that points back to here, but I'd be willing to discuss it there as well. I've also emailed Morrus to ask if he'll put it up in the news section too.
Hyrum.
Definitely worth every penny. I'd be glad to spend my hard-earned dollars on a quality product.
S.
count me in
I started a thread at ENWorld that points back to here, but I'd be willing to discuss it there as well. I've also emailed Morrus to ask if he'll put it up in the news section too.
I have an account there, but I haven't posted in a long time (and it's a different alias). I'll have to read accordingly when I remind myself to check over there (their site just moves a little too slow for my patience).
What about Rich Burlew's GITP site? I don't have an account there, but there's an audience there too.
count me in
Was wondering when you'd get here. :D
I'd be very interested in this, I've been hoping for a Modern update for several years now.
So with that explanation, the question is: Do you see yourself committing money to the project in advance?
I would have to know that the core classes would be the same. While others may deride it, I found the "generic", and not occupation specific classes were far better for game flexibility. If that were to stay the same, I'd be all aboard.
I admit I have a certain amount of caution on my part. I was one of the people who preordered BESM 3rd Edition a few years back and, well, once bitten twice shy.
That being said, 60-odd dollars AU sounds like a small price to pay to give a great game a new lease on life. Mark me as cautiously interested.
I would be interested. I would essentially view it as preordering really really early, as I would be mostly interested for copies of the books. I would peek into the design forums every once in a while, but it's likely that I'd lurk. But, hey, who knows.
While I'd be all for a modern pathfinder sourcebook, I have to say I wasn't a fan of the D20 Modern approach. Having the Base Classes based on one of the attributes then advanced classes kinda seemed redundant.
Also, the way FX was handled really got messy.
What's wrong with a Level 1 Fighter who happens to use guns instead of swords?
That being said, I'd still be interested in the sourcebook, so as soon as I know where to read up on this "Patronage" idea, I'm in.
I'll pass. While I'd like to see a Modern or Sci-Fi Pathfinder, I'd rather not see it as a patronage project. Sorry guys, good luck though.
I am not a modern role play kind of guy. Sci Fi maybe
yeah! Count me in. My wallet hates me now, no reason to change anything.