One of my players wanted to try the Summoner and I agreed. He's basically playing a person born with deformities and he had an "imaginary friend" as a child who became his eidolon, a creature from the firmament between the Dreaming and Arcadia. The creature has become manifest and now protects him. Great concept.
I have a high-magic world, so the medium-sized snake with funny, glowing eyes and rune on its head coiled around the PC as he walked about the borderland city didn't cause much of a stir. In fact, the character's own physical deformities caused more of a problem with the locals than the snake.
As far as combat goes, at level one the snake was good at harassing.
The Summoner being able to cast Enlarge Person on the snake was great. Please DO NOT change this. It is great for the class. The snake tied up a lot of enemies in one encounter thanks to this.
My player chose to focus on Strength as a secondary attribute for his Summoner and gave himself a longspear. He gave his snake reach. Between the two of them, they were very good at controlling a WIDE portion of the battlefield.
The summoning ability was poor. He used it once during the adventure. An action to cause a single creature to spring into being and do a charging smite at an enemy. At one point, the PCs had to hack through two feet of ice. Several PCs were tied up doing this while the others stood watch.
The PCs were ambushed because all three watchmen rolled poor perception checks. If the Summoner had utility summons (a minute or longer), there would have been far more people on watch and a greater chance of not being ambushed. I know I've kvetched about this on the boards, but this really is what happened.
My suggestion is to give the Summoner's daily summons either the ability to use the summon monster spell OR to create a 10-min per level or even an hour-per level laborer which will not engage in combat.
One of my players wanted to try the Summoner and I agreed. He's basically playing a person born with deformities and he had an "imaginary friend" as a child who became his eidolon, a creature from the firmament between the Dreaming and Arcadia. The creature has become manifest and now protects him. Great concept.
I have a high-magic world, so the medium-sized snake with funny, glowing eyes and rune on its head coiled around the PC as he walked about the borderland city didn't cause much of a stir. In fact, the character's own physical deformities caused more of a problem with the locals than the snake.
As far as combat goes, at level one the snake was good at harassing.
The Summoner being able to cast Enlarge Person on the snake was great. Please DO NOT change this. It is great for the class. The snake tied up a lot of enemies in one encounter thanks to this.
My player chose to focus on Strength as a secondary attribute for his Summoner and gave himself a longspear. He gave his snake reach. Between the two of them, they were very good at controlling a WIDE portion of the battlefield.
The summoning ability was poor. He used it once during the adventure. An action to cause a single creature to spring into being and do a charging smite at an enemy. At one point, the PCs had to hack through two feet of ice. Several PCs were tied up doing this while the others stood watch.
The PCs were ambushed because all three watchmen rolled poor perception checks. If the Summoner had utility summons (a minute or longer), there would have been far more people on watch and a greater chance of not being ambushed. I know I've kvetched about this on the boards, but this really is what happened.
My suggestion is to give the Summoner's daily summons either the ability to use the summon monster spell OR to create a 10-min per level or even an hour-per level laborer which will not engage in combat.
That's a good idea!
What about a Invisible Servant in the place of Summon Monster One? Make it last 1 hour/level? You could even do the same with Mount or spectral steed (utility, not combat).
That's a good idea!What about a Invisible Servant in the place of Summon...
While I would love to se unseen servant in place of Summon monster, I would love it more if the servant could get better as it levels (ex. instead of 20 lbs flat, 10lbs +10lbs/lvl) so that you could use it for the utility people want
While I would love to se unseen servant in place of Summon monster, I would love it more if the servant could get better as it levels (ex. instead of 20 lbs flat, 10lbs +10lbs/lvl) so that you could use it for the utility people want
That's a good idea!What about a Invisible Servant in the place of Summon...
I kind of hate to say it but I'd almost rather see the summons replaced with the ability to call a "mini-eidolon". Maybe something with a uniform statline but FAR fewer evolution points / different options. We already have the ability reduced to one monster at a time.
I kind of hate to say it but I'd almost rather see the summons replaced with the ability to call a "mini-eidolon". Maybe something with a uniform statline but FAR fewer evolution points / different options. We already have the ability reduced to one monster at a time.
This could be very cool, maybe reduce it to only one hit point regardless of level, and have some other abilities to make it useful outside of combat.
It's not one monster at a time. It's one casting of the spell like ability at a time. Doesn't sound like a big difference, but in all reality (or should that be fantasy?) it is.
I like the idea of having the option of casting unseen servant. Might end up as a house rule for me...that and summon nature's ally.
Before the fix the summoner could cast summon monster and it would last one minute per level right? So in your game he could have brought out something to either chip ice for one minute...or help stand guard for one minute. Frankly I don't see that making much of a difference. Maybe it's an issue in the mechanics of chipping ice...I don't know.
Personally I would have rathered Jason cut back on the eidolon's power rather than the summoner's ability to summon monsters, but it honestly doesn't hurt my feelings to have them cast summon monster like everyone else. They still get free castings of it, so they're still better at summoning than anyone else.
So how exactly is the summoner worse off than the wizard/sorcerer? A summoner comes equipped with a fighter to keep the bad guys off of him. Can cast as many summon monster spells as he has slots, and can cast an extra summon monster of the highest level as a spell like ability. A wizard can cast summon monster as a spell however many times he prepares it, which isn't likely to be all that often. A sorcerer is better off than the wizard, and can cast summon monster a number of times per spell slot, but without the extra highest level version, and without the added in blocker.
Competition: To be a Summoning Master
Competitors: Summoner vs. Wizard/Sorcerer, Bard, Cleric, Druid
Summoner: gets an Eidolon, summoning spells, and SLAs, gets Summon Monster - at lower levels
Wizard/Sorcerer: gets abilities from schools/bloodlines, gets more spells, no SLAs, can get a Summoner Scribed Scroll and add the "unusual spell" to their spells known. More/better(?) offensive spells.
Bard: gets Bardic Music, more spells(?), minor healing, plenty of buffs
Cleric: Gets Channel Energy, buffs, medium BAB and armor prof, major healing
Druid: gets animal companion, medium BAB and armor prof, wildshape(better to fight alongside the summons), moderate healer
Does anyone else want to add to this?
|
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Sorcerers and bards are allowed(at the GM's discretion) to learn new and unusaul spells they gain from adventuring.
So they can learn the Summoner's version of Summon Monster.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
Sorcerers and bards are allowed(at the GM's discretion) to learn new and unusaul spells they gain from adventuring.
So they can learn the Summoner's version of Summon Monster.
Not if its already on their spell list at a higher level
The fireball spell doesn't suddenly become a second level spell for them though. Just because a fighter is specialized and focused with a long sword doesn't meen the ranger gets those bonuses when he picks up the fighter's sword.
Also, what is this talk of the summoner's version of summon monster? Even before the change a summoner cast summon monster exactly like a wizard. His spell like ability was different yes...but when he cast the spell it was the same as anyone else casting the spell. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I didn't think you could make scrolls from spell like abilities.
|
|
The fireball spell doesn't suddenly become a second level spell for them though.
Level 2(like glitterdust), not caster level 2. Once he has spent time(and possible money to determine it isn't a fake), he can learn the unusual spell, which in the case just so happens to be a Lv2 fireball.
Also, what is this talk of the summoner's version of summon monster? Even before the change a summoner cast summon monster exactly like a wizard. His spell like ability was different yes...but when he cast the spell it was the same as anyone else casting the spell. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I didn't think you could make scrolls from spell like abilities.
A Summoner gets Summon Monster IV(4), as a 3rd level spell, Summon Monster V(5) as a 4th level spell, Summon Monster VII(7) as a 5th level spell, and Summon Monster IX(9) as a 6th level spell. Their version of the spells are different, because the spell level is lower.
The summoner can only have one SLA active at a time; that does not mean he can have only one summon spell active at a time. He can still use his spell slots just like anybody else can. While soeme improvement of duration would be nice on at least the SLA to counteract the one at a time limit for the SLA , the limit does not apply to summon spells using normal spell slots.
The summoner can only have one SLA active at a time; that does not mean he can have only one summon spell active at a time. He can still use his spell slots just like anybody else can. While soeme improvement of duration would be nice on at least the SLA to counteract the one at a time limit for the SLA , the limit does not apply to summon spells using normal spell slots.
I have no problem with the SLA limit, personally. I mean, between the Eidolon and your SLA, its kind of like you have 2 summons out already, anyway. I do agree the length needs to be adjusted, min/lvl was probably a bit too much, but automatically extending the SLA as per Extend Spell, adding your Cha mod to rounds, or even just a static number like +2 to rounds/cast would help it out greatly. Although the summoning is an ability secondary to the main feature (the Eidolon), I think its still pretty much the summoner's shtick, and its kind of lame that that shtick is pretty much worthless till level 3.
I personally like the limit on active SLAs; I was just pointing out to some of the people above who seemed to believe that the limit applied to all summon spells, including normally cast ones. The best solution for the SLA that I see is let the SLA have an extended duration of some kind, and I could even see at 5th level or somewhere in there giving letting them cast it as a standard action. The biggest problem with the SLA as originally written was that at lower levels no other class could realistically match or overcome it; by 5th level, that is much less of a concern, and a faster casting time wouldn't have that much more effect than what other classes are starting to be able to do.
I personally like the limit on active SLAs; I was just pointing out to some of the people above who seemed to believe that the limit applied to all summon spells, including normally cast ones. The best solution for the SLA that I see is let the SLA have an extended duration of some kind, and I could even see at 5th level or somewhere in there giving letting them cast it as a standard action. The biggest problem with the SLA as originally written was that at lower levels no other class could realistically match or overcome it; by 5th level, that is much less of a concern, and a faster casting time wouldn't have that much more effect than what other classes are starting to be able to do.
To me, the biggest reason casting time will always have an impact is because the difference between standard action and full round casting time is HUGE. While casting standard, you can pretty much guarantee that people won't disrupt the casting, but a 1 round casting leaves you open to A LOT of interruptions, and delays the arrival of the creature by one round.
Casting time is ALWAYS relevant, even more so at high levels were time becomes the only resource that matters.
Casting time is relevant, but when you figure that summoning is what this class does best, and actually about all this class really does well, letting him get a little faster on the SLA goes a long way toward balancing out his lack of other options. And at the levels my suggestion would give it to him, he needs something to compete with the sheer versatility of other casters. It makes him a true master of summoning at a level I would expect him to be a master of summoning. Also, the fact that its on the SLA, but not regular spells, would keep him from spamming anymore or really any faster, after the first round with the SLA, than any other caster.
Well, I would just like to update this with session 2 of our game, and the death of our great lvl 1 summoner friend to 21 trogladites. We are using a house rule to double lvl 1 PCs HP, but not give them any for lvl 2, as well as using the critical hit and fumble decks. Our stats are rolled and high.
The party consisted of 5 lvl 2s (ranger, Paladin, Bard, Evoker, Druid) and a lvl 1 summoner. It was the second combat of the day.
There were 14 enemies on the field initially. The summoner did an amasing job at crowd control. Before engaing, he buffed both himself and Mr. Wiggles, his snake Eidolon, with Enlarge Person while the rest of us shot arrows. Using a large spear and Mr. Wiggles having reach, they affected movement and took on about 1/2 of the trogladites. They both had trouble hitting without the Bard's inspire, but faired pretty well while the rest of us got the kills in. The enemy reinforcements came in, 7 more trogs, about the time the ones on the board died (~8 rounds) At this point, the summoner was low on HP and the druid was unable to heal him in time. He got crit for X3 damage and was brought down to -17, dead.
If anything, this summoner's biggest flaw is that he is too much of a threat. 2 of the 4 combats he was in, he went down because he too effectively pulled agro. His AC was good enough to deflect most damage in the mobs, but without a dedicated healer he eventually succumbed.
Well, I would just like to update this with session 2 of our game, and the death of our great lvl 1 summoner friend to 21 trogladites. ...A party of 6 fought 21 trogs? Even the initial encounter of 14 seems extremely dangerous for that level.
yeah, it was fun. Did you read the first post? I'm suprized Loopy didn't mention that was 24 snobolds (kobolds with Ice immunity, double fire damage, bonuses to stealth in tundra) that we fought. They had the suprise round on us too. At least for the Trogs, we took 1 out in the suprise round.
the Summoner himself is not going to be a very effective melee character. You'd probably be better off using that Enlarge person on your fighter and pursuing archery.
the Summoner himself is not going to be a very effective melee character. You'd probably be better off using that Enlarge person on your fighter and pursuing archery.
Except the summoner was a good melee character. Why enlarge characters who can already 1-shot enemies when you can buff someone who is going to be in melee anyway to a point where he is killing guys effectively? He was the 2nd highest str character in the party.
Well, I would just like to update this with session 2 of our game, and the death of our great lvl 1 summoner friend to 21 trogladites. ...A party of 6 fought 21 trogs? Even the initial encounter of 14 seems extremely dangerous for that level.
I use a high-powered rolling system. 3 sets of 3d6, do not arrange, keep your favorite, then apply 25 points (-2 points for each 17 or better and +2 points for each 5 or less). They were also all level 2 except the summoner who missed the first adventure. Still, I granted level 1 and 2 HP at first level to make the fledgling characters more survivable.
Except the summoner was a good melee character. Why enlarge characters who can already 1-shot enemies when you can buff someone who is going to be in melee anyway to a point where he is killing guys effectively? He was the 2nd highest str character in the party.
Yeah, I think his Str was his secondary stat.