I know a lot of these ideas have already been stated, but here's my impression of the class after play testing a bit.
I love how customizable the class is, the curses are excellent for flavor and are mechanically very interesting. I think some (specifically deafness) needs a little bit more clarification because the actual condition of being deaf as a curse brings unique problems as per the deaf condition in the book (basically, that you can become accustomed to being deaf which may offset the initiative/perception penalties).
I really liked revelations, as well, as it added even MORE choices to how I wanted my Oracle to work. That said, I really would like to see a lot of the once per day (with more at 5 and later levels) altered so that they could be used more. I realize this means some power levels would have to be affected, but I feel like if you can only use something once per day, it needs to be a game changer (or solve a significant problem) and I just do not feel that way about the revelations.
I do not think Oracle needs the delayed casting progression. The cleric spell list, particularly at lower levels, does not have the game changers that the Sorc/Wiz list does. On the subject of spells, I think it'd be nice if the Oracle had some more known---a simple way to fix this (in my opinion) is move the bonus spells back two levels. A flame oracle, for example, would then get produce flame at first level and resist energy at third. This, obviously, only works if the delayed spellcasting is eliminated.
Another minor problem I have are the revelations that provide a melee touch attach that does damage. In my opinion I'd like to see these as a ranged touch attack as the Oracle is only allowed to be in light armor which, to me, means it probably shouldn't be in melee too often (unless the Battle Focus is taken, obviously).
I love the idea of an Oracle, but honestly if I was playing in a campaign and was filling the "Divine" roll, I feel a Cleric fills that roll significantly better, to the point that there's virtually no incentive to taking an Oracle (beyond the interesting flavor of the curses).
See, I thought the incentive to playing the Oracle was exceedingly interesting. I saw it as sort of a divine sorcerer, which I thought was cool. I made a Suli (from the Qadira Companion) flame oracle, and I cant wait to playtest it. I like the mix of melee and spells all centered around a single concept. The curse folds in well for roleplaying (I took the speech curse, and will be speaking Ignan) challenging, but not detracting from the game itself. Moving the bonus spells down two levels would be fine , but I like the spell progression, I dont think it will be an issue.
See, I thought the incentive to playing the Oracle was exceedingly interesting. I saw it as sort of a divine sorcerer, which I thought was cool. I made a Suli (from the Qadira Companion) flame oracle, and I cant wait to playtest it. I like the mix of melee and spells all centered around a single concept. The curse folds in well for roleplaying (I took the speech curse, and will be speaking Ignan) challenging, but not detracting from the game itself. Moving the bonus spells down two levels would be fine , but I like the spell progression, I dont think it will be an issue.
Ill admit, later on the spell progression isn't HUGE. I mean, in reality its just a bump of one level. My point, though, is that it isn't necessary. The advantage a sorcerer has is the spell list. Arcane Spells are game changers (color spray, for example, at early levels) and being able to cast a bunch of those (as the sorc can) is...well...game changing! The thing is, though, is that the Cleric Spell list is that it doesnt provide game changers. The cleric spell list provides answers (in my opinion) to the problems your allies face, as opposed to problems for the enemies to deal with. Theres no reason to have the spellcasting delayed. Look at Favored Soul from Complete Divine in 3.5, no one cried over powered there, and I dont think it would cause that to happen here, either.
I feel like Oracle just suffers too much at low levels from delayed spell casting. I feel like you REALLY need that CMW at 3 as baddies are starting to really dish out some damage!You're right, though, that the Oracle can be an interesting mix of melee and spells. You have 3/4 BAB and the possibility of better armour (through feats or battle focus). That last "criticism" was really just more on personal opinion, to be honest :)
I agree I would like the oracle to have better spell progression, or just something better than clerics since,
1. Flavor wise it seems more mystical orientated than a cleric.
2. mechanically oracle spell casting is horrible compared to clerics.
Clerics can spontaneously heal and have access to their entire list to choose from every day. Not including other stuff to add more spontaneous spells. I would like the oracle to at least be able to switch out its spells known every day instead of every level.
Well, I will agree that the divine list is somewhat , limited. The solution however is in the bonus focus spells, they can be used to bolster the Oracle's spell choices, and, so long as they follow the focus, they stay true to the character concept. Perhaps in boosting the focus spells, the class will be givin the spellcasting chops, that everyone seems to feel they need. As long as it isnt overdone.
I agree I would like the oracle to have better spell progression, or just something better than clerics since,
I've been looking at the Bonus Spells an Oracle receives for a particular Focus and some fit the class perfectly but others seem out of place.
Like an Oracle of Battle getting Fog Cloud as a bonus spell at 5th level.
I've taken the liberty of jotting down a mock up of the bonus spells that could be switched for new spells for each focus. These new spells I feel are more advantageous because I have seen these spells used more often than other spells.
Level: Original Spell - New Spell
Oracle of Battle:
03rd Level: Enlarge Person - Stays the Same
05th Level: Fog Cloud - Rage
07th Level: Magic Vestment - Stays the Same
09th Level: Wall of Fire - Stays the Same
11th Level: Righteous Might - Stays the Same
13th Level: Mass Bulls Strength - Stays the Same
15th Level: Control Weather - Mages Sword
17th Level: Earthquake - Iron Body
19th Level: Storm of Vengence - Power Word Kill
Oracle of Flames:
03rd Level: Produce Flame - Stays the Same
05th Level: Resist Energy - Scorching Ray
07th Level: Fireball - Stays the Same
09th Level: Wall of Fire - Stays the Same
11th Level: Summon Monster V - Flamestrike
13th Level: Fire Seeds - Stays the Same
15th Level: Firestorm - Stays the Same
17th Level: Incendiary Cloud - Stays the Same
19th Level: Elemental Swarm - Meteor Swarm
Oracle of Stone:
03rd Level: Shield - Magic Stone
05th Level: Acid Arrow - Shatter
07th Level: Meld into Stone - Stays the Same
09th Level: Wall of Stone - Stays the Same
11th Level: Stoneskin - Stays the Same
13th Level: Stone Tell - Stays the Same
15th Level: Statue - Stays the Same
17th Level: Repel Metal or Stone - Stays the Same
19th Level: Elemental Swarm - Stays the Same
Oracle of Waves:
03rd Level: Obscuring Mist - Stays the same
05th Level: Chill Metal - Lesser Restoratin
07th Level: Quench - Water Breathing
09th Level: Wall of Ice - Control Water
11th Level: Baleful Polymorph - Cone of Cold
13th Level: Transmute Rock to Mud - Heal
15th Level: Freezing Sphere - Stays the same
17th Level: Animal Shapes - Polar Ray
19th Level: Shapechange - Mass Heal
Oracle of Winds:
03rd Level: Shield - Stays the same
05th Level: Gust of Wind - Soundburst
07th Level: Levitate - Windwall
09th Level: Freedom of Movement - Shout
11th Level: Control Winds - Stays the same
13th Level: Overland Flight - Chain Lightning
15th Level: Control Weather - Greater Shout
17th Level: Whirlwind - Stays the Same
19th Level: Storm of Vengence - Storm of Vengence
|
I always thought the the idea of spontaneous divine casting was a little weak; you barely get any spells, and most divine spellcasters HAVE to get CLW, CMW, and so on and so forth. Clerics can already cast those spells spontaneously, so the Oracle having to waste a precious spells known slot for that is just bowing down to the awesome power that is the cleric.
I think having them be able to change spells known every day isn't that unbalancing. The Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine did it, which I thought was a very good way to approach divine spontaneous spellcasting since, in comparison, the sorcerer is closer in spells known to the wizard (if you're looking at just the spells gained from levels, and not copied from the local Wizards union) than the Oracle is to the cleric (since his spells known is all of the freaking spells in the list). The spirit shaman also had the cleric and druid's spell progression, didn't have as many castings per day as a sorcerer, and didn't have as many spells retrieved per day as the sorcerer had spells known, but the versatility it allowed with a spontaneous caster was very interesting. Essentially though, it would just be -1 spells per day and spells known for every spell level for the ability to swap spells known every day.
Some other things that might help the oracle out:
Getting UMD as a class skill (sorcerers do, wizards don't, so oracles should when clerics don't). Remember, though, that they can use any scroll and any wand of divine magic, just like any other caster, without a UMD check.
Spontaneous cure spells. Druids get it. Clerics get it. But Oracles don't? Perhaps either tie it to healing, or tie it to revelations, or tie it to their curses. "Hi. I'm an oracle. What differentiates me? I can cast spontaneously! What? Clerics and druids can already cast spontaneously, too? Well, that sucks."
One thing I've noticed is that one common mismatch is that you'll have characters with a vision limit of 60' taking up the ability to fly 60'. I'm still not sure how to treat that.
Curses seem somewhat ambivalent when you have spells that remove the afflictions in question. I suggest more oddball curses that factor more into RP rather than physical handicaps. "Curse: You must sacrifice a chicken everyday or you become a chicken yourself. Sacrificing the chicken daily grants you bonus spells per day."
Some other things that might help the oracle out:
Getting UMD as a class skill (sorcerers do, wizards don't, so oracles should when clerics don't). Remember, though, that they can use any scroll and any wand of divine magic, just like any other caster, without a UMD check.
Spontaneous cure spells. Druids get it. Clerics get it. But Oracles don't? Perhaps either tie it to healing, or tie it to revelations, or tie it to their curses. "Hi. I'm an oracle. What differentiates me? I can cast spontaneously! What? Clerics and druids can already cast spontaneously, too? Well, that sucks."
One thing I've noticed is that one common mismatch is that you'll have characters with a vision limit of 60' taking up the ability to fly 60'. I'm still not sure how to treat that.
Curses seem somewhat ambivalent when you have spells that remove the afflictions in question. I suggest more oddball curses that factor more into RP rather than physical handicaps. "Curse: You must sacrifice a chicken everyday or you become a chicken yourself. Sacrificing the chicken daily grants you bonus spells per day."
Well technically druids get spontaneous summon nature's ally spells but we get your point.
And the vision thing is probably my biggest complaint with the oracle curses.
I want to play the blind prophet concept but having a 60 ft maximum vision either leads to a melee fighter type, or an ineffective blaster type, since a lot of AoE spells will affect the party as well.
I have to disagree here. There's no good reason for the Waves oracle to get healing spells. Yeah, I get it, water traditionally associated with healing, but we're going to have a Life or Healing or something Focus down the line, and the elemental foci should focus on the elements themselves. In fact, I'm not even sure I like how much polymorphing is on the list now, but at least if they're morphing into water creatures it makes more sense than healing, which a separate focus will cover anyway.
True and a Healing focus would balance the Oracle back on par with the cleric, which I have seen a debate about recently.
However the spells that were put there for healing are minimal at best.
I only included 3 such spells and two of which you don't receive until 12th level at least.
I mean one of the deities on the Oracle of Waves is Pharasma, goddess of Healing, Death, Prophecy, etc etc.
Still having a focus on the Element I do agree with and those spells could be switched into something else so who knows.
Personally, I think an Oracle dedicated to healing (if they do make a healing focus) SHOULD be better than a cleric at healing, if not at least on par. An Oracle of healing EMBODIES healing powers (just as an Oracle of Battle embodies fighting, and a Flame Oracle embodies burnanating the countryside).
It'd be easy to do, give an Oracle with the healing focus channel positive energy and empowered healing as revelations, as well as the healing line for bonus spells (this would only work if bonus spells are bumped back two levels, as I dont think anyone who is building a healer is going to "wait" till level three for CLW).
That said, I think this would end up being a very...boring character, for most, as you really become a the epitome of a healbot. BUT, I would like the option for those of us that actually enjoy that very supporting role. Yes, I realize a lot of people will say building a healing cleric is "missing the point" or not optimal (and Im sure this criticism would continue to include building an oracle), but...I'd still like to see an option out there to make a healer oracle. Maybe a good way to do this is have a sun focus that has some of the healing-ish stuff mixed in with the undead hating-ness of the sun domain.
The great thing about the Oracle is that it IS a breakaway from the traditional divine healer type, on the whole. I dont think most parties would EXPECT you to make a healing oracle just because its an option. You can build very different Oracles based on the focus you take. My Flame Oracle is a completely different animal than my friend's Battle Oracle, and both of these would be miles away from whatever healing Oracle I might build, I bet.
Finally, I do have to agree that the waves should NOT be given the healing spells. MAYBE a purification spell (remove disease/lesser restoration), but not HP healing spells. I think when we see the new spells that the Cleric list is getting, the elemental nature of the waves focus may be more...appealing.
I agree. Oracles do not need healing, but should you want it, there are enough options for it already. I can see changing the spell progression, but it isn't bad. Unlike the Favored Soul, Oracles have other things to do in combat (that a commoner can't also do).
I guess I really dont understand why you're militantly against a healing-ish focus? If you dont like healing, don't pick that focus, but I think the option should be out there for those that want it. I'm honestly interested as to why you'd want it excluded, though?
As to the Favored Soul comparison thing...true, the oracle already has "more"...but...thats a Pathfinder thing. The PF Fighter, Sorcerer, Cleric, etc all have MORE, so it makes sense that a "Favored Soul" type class would have "more" in Pathfinder.
If you have divine spells, the party expects you to heal.
If there's more than one divine caster, the party expects one of you to heal.
The oracle is best suited to being the one div caster who doesn't heal, but when he needs to heal, he feels rather stymied at low levels. Basically, until level 7 or 11, a cleric can do anything the oracle can do better, including heal, self-buff and party buff.
It basically comes down to asking yourself why you'd play an oracle if you could play a cleric.
If you have divine spells, the party expects you to heal.
If there's more than one divine caster, the party expects one of you to heal.
The oracle is best suited to being the one div caster who doesn't heal, but when he needs to heal, he feels rather stymied at low levels. Basically, until level 7 or 11, a cleric can do anything the oracle can do better, including heal, self-buff and party buff.
It basically comes down to asking yourself why you'd play an oracle if you could play a cleric.
Um why would he be stymed at healing magic? He has more slots than the cleric does. Now when it comes to other options of healing he has less... currently but we haven't seen if there will be a focus of life or healing yet which would probably be as good if not better than the cleric at healing.
Um why would he be stymed at healing magic? He has more slots than the cleric does. Now when it comes to other options of healing he has less... currently but we haven't seen if there will be a focus of life or healing yet which would probably be as good if not better than the cleric at healing.If you have divine spells, the party expects you to heal.
If there's more than one divine caster, the party expects one of you to heal.
The oracle is best suited to being the one div caster who doesn't heal, but when he needs to heal, he feels rather stymied at low levels. Basically, until level 7 or 11, a cleric can do anything the oracle can do better, including heal, self-buff and party buff.
It basically comes down to asking yourself why you'd play an oracle if you could play a cleric.
In my mind, it's the same reason for playing a sorcerer instead of a wizard. Raw Power. The Oracle trades versitility for power. Just like the Sorcerer does. Its less evident because, when you are talking "cure" spells, a cleric's spontaneous casting ability closes the gap. That's why people keep saying a "healing" Oracle needs extra pop, because of the clerics spontaneous casting ability makes all good clerics approach Oracles with numbers of healing spells.
Ok that makes a little more sense.
The cleric is still going to have less slots, but I'll agree that's made up for some in the channel energy department (depends on how much of a heal bot the character makes). However how does this make the Oracle a poor healer? I was expecting someone to mention the fact he gets his spells on the even levels instead of odd meaning he's a step behind the cleric in access. Each of them still only heal xd8+x when casting the spells (unless the cleric takes the healing domain).
If you have divine spells, the party expects you to heal.
Never play with a divine caster I'm playing then, because while I will heal if necessary, my main attention is going to be on doing everything in my power to make sure that the healing isn't required in the first place. The idea that divine must equal healer is extremely annoying to me since even clerics are going to be vary on what they focus on depending on what god they worship. To try to make all oracles healers would be a big mistake in my opinion. Make a focus for those who want to fill that role, but [/b] do not [/b] try to tell me that a divine caster has to be good at healing; there are many other roles a divine caster can fill.
I apologize if I screwed up the quote thing. It's the first time I've tried to do it.
If you have divine spells, the party expects you to heal.Never play with a divine caster I'm playing then, because while I will heal if necessary, my main attention is going to be on doing everything in my power to make sure that the healing isn't required in the first place. The idea that divine must equal healer is extremely annoying to me since even clerics are going to be vary on what they focus on depending on what god they worship. To try to make all oracles healers would be a big mistake in my opinion. Make a focus for those who want to fill that role, but do not try to tell me that a divine caster has to be good at healing; there are many other roles a divine caster can fill.
I agree with you, completely. A divine caster isn't meant to just run around healbotting shamefully, they're meant to get in there with divine power and shield of faith and mix it in melee using spells like hold person, bless, etc. etc. However, when you're a 4th level oracle, the other PCs are on the ground, the battle isn't won yet and you look at the group and shrug and go "My second level spell was hold person... I can cast it 4 more times... I don't have cure light wounds, but I do have doom" you're not going to get a very warm response.
Face it; if you can heal, there will be a time you need to heal. The party is mid-way through the dungeon after a tough fight and they're low on HP, the party fighter just got one-rounded by the ogre champion, the wizard just got knocked to 1 hp by an archer and is hiding around the corner for all intents and purposes out of the fight.
When that happens, the cleric just polishes off his selective channeling feat (or not) and then channels once and the fighter is back up again, the wizard is fine, or the entire party becomes more battle ready for the next encounter.
On top of that, the cleric doesn't *need* to prepare cure spells while the oracle does. If you don't *need* healing, you're not going to cast cure spells at all. For instance, if your party was going to a big spooky mansion to investigate a series of murders, you could load out with cool spells like Augury or Commune, Hallow, Discern Lies, Locate Object, Speak with the Dead. You get surprised by a vampire! Now if you need to, you can drop any of those spells to convert them to heals for your party. And if you didn't get jumped by the vampire, you can use all of those spells for their intended purpose.
Meanwhile, the oracle can't pick any of the cool spells on the divine list, only the ones with the most throughput. So not only will he have very little if none (I could see an oracle taking commune, but only barely) of the spells above-- they don't supply a mechanical benefit, so having Speak with the Dead as a permanent known spell would be situational at best and completely unused at most-- but if he does choose those spells he can't convert them to heals, and then he's stuck with them if he goes out to investigate the vampire's evil hollow. Whereas now that the cleric knows he's chasing a vampire down, he can rest 8 hours and prepare Daylight, Searing Ray, Holy Smite... and when he needs heals, he can convert one to one for him or his party.
Or he probably doesn't even need to convert _any_ heals. He can just channel. And it'll damage the vampire!
If divine is to healing as arcane is to damage, imagine the wizard could, 3 times + his wisdom modifier per day, channel arcane power to harm his enemies. Now imagine the wizard could spontaneously convert any of his prepared spells into evocation spells; Mount becomes Magic Missile, Resist Energy becomes Scorching Ray, Illusory Script becomes Fireball.
To complete the analogy, the wizard also gets to choose two favored schools and recieves the benefits of both. He also gains a free spell slot every level that he can choose from either of his favored schools.
Also the Wizard has good progression on his fortitude and can wear medium armor with no penalty.
In addition, as a sorceror, you must choose a debilitating injury or mental illness or curse at first level. This gives you benefits best described as "fringe" until 11th level.
It's very easy to see how much this stacks up against the oracle. What could an oracle do that a cleric could not do, besides cast four or five more spells than the cleric? I guess the oracle could automatically succeed on saves versus sonic damage because _he's deaf_.
Re: Ice Titan and other
If your group is making all divine casters be healers, thats a problem of the group, not the class. My DM/group would gladly let me make a Bones Oracle who focused on inflict spells and didn't pick up any cure spells if thats what I really wanted. This isnt some MMO where you need to min/max every character's effectiveness, instead you should focus on min/maxing fun! But, I realize not everyone will agree. Regardless, my point is that just because a character CAN heal (which would happen if we gave the Oracle a healing focus) doesnt mean that that character will always be pigeonholed into a healing role. Heck, the cleric can be built to be an excellent heal bot, but I know a lot of Clerics that haven't gone that way!
For the record I dont think divine is to healing as arcane is to damage, instead I see it as more of "Divine is to providing answers for allies as arcane is to causing problems to enemies".
Finally, Im not trying to say all Oracles need to be healers, I do think there needs to be the possibility for them to be good healers, though!
Ill agree, the oracle needs a bump in power as I see no reason to (from a min/max perspective) play an oracle over the cleric.
|
|
After having one of my players test the oracle out, I am wonderfully underwhelmed by the class as written. You only get one more spell per day per spell level, with nowhere near the flexibility that a cleric is normally allowed. The cleric is made for healing right out of the box with some options for further flexibility if you so choose, whereas if you want to heal at all as an Oracle (without the aid of items, of course) you have to give up one (or more) of your very precious spells known slots, with no options to increase your healing whatsoever. The biggest issue I have is with the spells known; It's not the same as the gap between the wizard and sorcerer. When the Wizard attains a new spell level, he gets to know 2 more spells while the sorcerer knows 1 more. The cleric learns all of the spells of his new spell level, while the oracle only learns 1. How is that the same? There needs to be some balancing on this.
Also, I don't really see why the Oracle loses proficiencies when compared to the cleric (unless you're a battle oracle with the revelation that allows you to go past the clerics). The sorcerer gains proficiencies over the wizard without having to burn a class feature on it, and all clerics, no matter the specializations, can wear heavy armor from the get-go. I don't see why you should have to completely focus your character on front-line combat to wear good armor when the cleric doesn't have to.
Even though the oracle gets all sorts of neat tricks in her book, none of them ever match up with Channel Energy as far as usefulness goes. All of the abilities that allow you to deal damage over an AoE are only 1/day + 1/day for every 5 levels, when compared to channel energy which is 3+cha mod, and has dual uses (damage undead, heal allies+self unless negative energy. With negative energy, Selective channeling + high cha becomes a must, but I digress). The Oracle just runs out of her revelation-granted abilities far too fast while her very situational spells quickly become useless as soon as the situation changes.
Also, I know it has been said before, but from what I can tell the Battle Focus is the only one really worth anything as is. Which is a real shame, because the other foci have some real potential, they just need a power boost.
After playtesting it a little bit, my player quickly requested to be able to change his decision and just make a cleric, so as to not be screwing himself in the long run.
Interesting class with really neat fluff, but the crunch is sorely lacking the same appeal.
EDIT: Also, wtf is up with the revelations that say "You must be 5th level before selecting this revelation" when you don't get another revelation until 7th level? Is it just a typo, or did they really not realize that it would be redundant to have revelations that say "learned at 5th" and "learned at 7th" when the first option to learn another revelation after 3rd is 7th level?
|
I agree I would like the oracle to have better spell progression, or just something better than clerics since,
1. Flavor wise it seems more mystical orientated than a cleric.
2. mechanically oracle spell casting is horrible compared to clerics.
I am glad other people have noticed this. I played an Oracle for about two sessions at (I think) 4th level, and having only two spells to choose from was murder. Literally to, because it doesn't replace the cleric as healer as well as I would have liked it to.
But man, does it have some dynamite flavor! Especially with those curses!
However, when you're a 4th level oracle, the other PCs are on the ground, the battle isn't won yet and you look at the group and shrug and go "My second level spell was hold person... I can cast it 4 more times... I don't have cure light wounds, but I do have doom" you're not going to get a very warm response.Face it; if you can heal, there will be a time you need to heal.
The if in the last part is key; oracles aren't clerics and do not by default have healing. If a party cannot figure this out before they go into battle and plan accordingly, I cannot help them. Oracles are designed to represent specific aspects of some idea; if I am playing an oracle of fire or some other element, I would have a hard time understanding why I would take cure light wounds for a spell. Clerics, on the other hand, represent not just a divine power, but also the earthly organization and representation of that power; therefore, having some healing available on the side, regardless of the diety's focus, to aid fellow believers makes perfect sense. For the oracle, who did not ask for his power, assuming some kind of healing capability just because he is wielding divine magic is silly.
As far as comparing channel energy to anything the oracle gets, as has been done frequently, I'm waiting to see how the class develops before I draw any conclusions. While I agree that as written, it is a bit weak, I do not think that making the class in general more of a cleric is particularly a productive route. Aside from a focus for healing, the oracle does not need healing, and any party that insists that the oracle use all their slots on healing is completely missing the point of the class.
Amen Brother.
What I want to see happen is Oracles of elements from Tian Xia.
Since they would technically have 5 Elements to choose from: Earth, Fire, Water, Metal, Wood.
|
|
and any party that insists that the oracle use all their slots on healing is completely missing the point of the class.
Do you realize that you are the same guy who is the reason why I always have to play a healer?
Yeah, anyone who COULD heal doesn't have to, but BOY would it be nice if you did.
I see were you are coming from, with a lack of spells known. So, personally, I think increasing the spells known is a good solution to this problem.
I don't mind healing if I built the character in such a way to make that part of him, but the oracle is not an alternate cleric, and to automatically assume every oracle is going to be built with healing in mind goes against all the support text. I understand perfectly that as a cleric or druid, classes that require the character to seek the power out, I will be called upon to heal; I may be more or less willing to do so in battle, based on the character, but if push comes to shove, I accept that is a basic reality of playing those classes.
The oracle, even though they cast divine spells, is a different beast altogether; you are talking about someone who may or may not accept the power that has been forced upon him, and may or may not be focused on something that typically involves healing. Therefore, if I build a oracle, and make it clear up front he is not a healer, the rest of the party is just going to have to find ways to deal with that.
I do not think that healing should automatically be part of the oracle class. If people want to play oracles that heal, great, but to assume that every oracle is going to have healing capability takes a lot away from the whole background for me.
|
|
My main beef about the oracle in regards to the healing issue is that they do not currently even have any way to make them a semi-dedicated healer if one was so inclined. Face it, when most players think about playing a caster, the major difference that makes their decision on whether they want to be arcane or divine is the capability to dish out major damage or to heal, respectively. To say that healing is not one of the major draws to divine casters would be a blatant lie. With the Witch, arcane magic that can heal is now a possibility (not even counting the Bard, he gets so few castings per day that he almost needs a wand to be a competent healer), but that's a different type of beast all together.
I just honestly think that the Oracle needs more spells known and that the revelations need to make more appearances per day, and the added option of a life/healing focus of some sort. As it stands now, an Oracle is better off getting a wand of Cure [insert severity here] Wounds than actually choosing it as a spell known.
I must be unusual then, because none of my arcane casters are designed around doing massive damage, and none of my divine casters are particularly focused on healing. I prefer to play with the other spells that no one else ever uses and see what I can do with them.
And I am sure the oracle will get a boost now that they have some idea of where to give the boost to. All of these classes are being built from the ground up for most part, so a little looseness at the beginning is to be expected. I am really looking forward to what other foci they come up with; the elemental ones are cool, but seeing how they envision some of the other domains/concepts will be interesting.
|
|
Notice that I did put most in italics, as you do seem to be one of those players actively shirks the normal stereotypes from what I can gather from your posts.
Aside from what's already mentioned, why the hell do they have revelations that say you can't pick them until after 5th level and ones that say you can't pick them until 7th level when you couldn't pick either of these until 7th anyways??? It's really starting to bother me, because as it is in multiple places throughout the PDF it seems like it's not just a normal typo. Are they going to release a feat called [Extra Revelation] that you can take at 5th to be able to get these earlier? Please tell me, because this little inconsistency vexes me like nothing else
EDIT: Also, I've noticed that all of the AC increasing revelations say they grant an Armor Bonus in the description... Does that mean that they don't stack with existing armor, like how Mage Armor works? Because with the precedent that mage armor set out (spells that grant an Armor Bonus don't stack with mundane armor), if the intent was to have them stack I would word it more carefully, like specifically stating that it stacks with existing armor. Just a thought
I can't really comment on specifics of revelations due to the fact that I am not in a position to play test any of these classes (though it would be fun to), and it is hard to judge the exact power of the revelations without actually playing them first. That said, I am sure given the experimental nature of the play test, a lot of these bugs are bound to come up, and I will wait to reserve final judgment until I see how Paizo reacts to the play tests of those who have been able to play these classes.
The big thing I see with all of these classes, though, is that people keep trying to approach them as if they are approaching these classes as if they were well developed standard classes with well defined rules. I for one am glad that Paizo is stretching the preconceived notions of what arcane magic does and what divine magic does, and the only way to see the full potential of these classes and the variety the final product could offer is to be willing to consider things like a divine caster that does not heal or a magic user that behaves more like a rogue than anything else. I guess that is ultimately the point I have been trying to subtly hint at, obviously with little success.
|
|
Well, my player was unsatisfied with his playtest of the class, but I think I'll try to help him find a way around his initial displeasure. One of his pet peeves is that he chose the Wind focus, which gave him shield as a bonus spell. Well, since he's proficient with shields he went ahead and got one, making that spell much less attractive since shield bonuses do not stack. I guess I see why divine casters never got that spell before. I'm thinking Unseen Servant would be a better choice for the first level bonus spell for the Wind Focus, and then perhaps also replacing Shield on the Stone Focus's list with Magic Stone. I know they can already choose it, but it seems like a much better choice, especially since the Waves/Bones foci get a spell from the cleric list for their first as well.
As far as my player's desire to heal more... I'll suggest that he shell out the 4,500gp for a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds. Or even just a half-charged one since this isn't going to be a terribly long campaign, and there's a druid and a paladin in the group.
I can understand not taking healing spells if it's your "thing," and if you are in a group that's well off and has a multitude of options at their hands you don't need healing spells as much if at all. But, I'm talking about between the levels of 1 and 6. If all of the people in the party who can wear full plate are wearing full plate, and if everyone else's armor has at least an enhancement bonus, you're not in the range I'm most concerned about. If you're on one of Paizo's adventure paths, you can't really scrounge up the gp to buy a wand of cure moderate wounds for a while because the AP awards you in physical goods much more than gold.
And yes, if you have divine spells and someone goes down you should have at least a cure spell, a cure wand or stabilize ready. Do whatever else you want on your downtime, just be ready to help the party. The worst clerics I've ever seen played were clerics who tried to be selfish wizards. The _worst_ cleric I've ever seen played used summoned monsters exclusively.
I'm not saying that you have to heal and that's your job get used to it, I'm saying that healing has its place (and that place lies most soundly in low levels, where oracles are the worst healers and are expected to be able to heal as the divine caster).
The problem is that you are still trying to treat the oracle as a substitute cleric; as written, it is not, at least not by default. To say that all oracles must have healing is akin to saying all bards must magic missile and fireball because they cast arcane magic just like wizards do.
These classes are not supposed to be alternate forms of existing classes or even substitutions, they are designed to be unique playing experiences. I can see a lot of people not getting that when it comes to the oracle or alchemist; they break too many ingrained rules of how magic and magic users should work.
It makes absolutely no sense for me to make a character that is told by a elemental spirit that he is now that spirit's mouth piece, and have him suddenly spitting out cure spells. Healing and curing are fine when you have characters that have a background that it makes sense for, but unlike all the other divine casters, it doesn't automatically make sense for the oracle.
I am not against healing, or giving the oracle the option to heal if they desire, but to treat all oracles as required to have healing reduces them to alternate clerics. If you are going to do that, you may as well not bother with the oracle and roll a cleric.
As far as the adventure paths go, you may well be right, but it that case, you may just have to treat the oracle as a 5th or 6th PC, and not expect them to fill the role of a cleric unless the player is willing to. Also, in those scenarios, I would expect the other players to respect the fact that a) if they do something stupid, they may have to wait a few rounds before I get to them, and b) if they go to somewhere where I have to take AoO's to get to them, they may have just done something that falls under a.
|
|
Sunshadow, you're just acting indignant without reason at this point. The Oracle is compared to the cleric because it is the cleric's version of the Sorcerer, plain and simple. It is very mechanically similar to the Sorcerer, you just have a Focus rather than a Bloodline. Because they are so similar to the sorcerer in this way, people expect it to resemble the cleric much in the same way the sorcerer resembles the wizard.
The harsh truth is, if the Oracle is the only one in the party that can select healing spells, he would be berated by the rest of the party if he didn't. When there are other people in the party that can heal (read: Cleric), you can do whatever you want with your spells known.
EDIT: Also, it is compared to the cleric because they share a spell list
Sorry if I seem I am coming across strong, but as it stands right now, any healing an oracle takes has a serious impact on his ability to play with his focus. If it were possible to do both healing and still take spells that allow you to focus on the focus, it would not be as big a problem, but as it currently stands, I cannot support the oracle being seen as a healer because in order to do so you effectively negate the central idea of the class, that the oracle is the mouthpiece for a chosen idea. There may be ways to fix this problem, but even then, I just cannot support the idea that the oracle is some kind of substitute for the cleric. We have plenty of arcane casters who fill various roles that don't overlap, is it really that hard to accept that the same could be done with divine magic?
Sorry if I seem I am coming across strong, but as it stands right now, any healing an oracle takes has a serious impact on his ability to play with his focus. If it were possible to do both healing and still take spells that allow you to focus on the focus, it would not be as big a problem, but as it currently stands, I cannot support the oracle being seen as a healer because in order to do so you effectively negate the central idea of the class, that the oracle is the mouthpiece for a chosen idea. There may be ways to fix this problem, but even then, I just cannot support the idea that the oracle is some kind of substitute for the cleric. We have plenty of arcane casters who fill various roles that don't overlap, is it really that hard to accept that the same could be done with divine magic?
Ok, now Ill admit the Oracle really needs more spells known, but i have to disagree with you that taking healing spells is making the character worthless. I mean, honestly, my first level Flame oracle would be very happy with Produce flame and CLW as his two spells (since it would fit into his concept of burning things, but also protecting those that help him burn things). Granted, I'd love a third spell (or some random SLA/SU ability), and I think that will get addressed in the updated PDF we're getting (since I've offered at least three lambs and a goat to the Paizo gods[you guys rock btw...please have pity on my favorite new class!]).
If you dont want to take CLW as a spell, let your party know that, and someone else will take a class that can learn some curing spells. Or, theyll just pool together their money and buy a wand for you to use!|
|
I might also add that when I rolled up an Oracle (mostly simulation, possible NPC) I didn't take any Cure spells at all. I do agree with you that taking cure spells hampers your ability to play with your focus. I just reassured myself on that point by factoring in a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds into his gear at some point.
I am giving my player that chose to be an oracle some extra spells known per spell level to close the gap between the cleric and the Oracle. It will give him a little bit more versatility, without having quite as much versatility as the cleric. I'll let you guys know how it goes after a session or two
I might also add that when I rolled up an Oracle (mostly simulation, possible NPC) I didn't take any Cure spells at all. I do agree with you that taking cure spells hampers your ability to play with your focus. I just reassured myself on that point by factoring in a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds into his gear at some point.
I am giving my player that chose to be an oracle some extra spells known per spell level to close the gap between the cleric and the Oracle. It will give him a little bit more versatility, without having quite as much versatility as the cleric. I'll let you guys know how it goes after a session or two
Let Charisma give bonus spells known as well as per day. Only applies to the characters actual Charisma, not modified by magic items, unless it is a permanent increase.
|
|
See, that was suggested to me earlier today but I decided against it for the sole fact that it seems to make charisma a little too important for this caster, when the main casting stat of the other spellcasters do not get such treatment. I decided that I will just increase the spells known at each level by 2 (maybe not all at once, though... like at first level you would know 3 first level spells, then it would go up to 4 at level 2).
All of those are good thoughts that would help the class a lot. However, while I don't think taking cure spells are worthless, I would like to see people get away from the idea that all divine casters must cure spells or they are playing the class wrong. If the theme of the oracle in general fit, it would be one thing, but I just cannot see a bunch of earth spirits being so concerned about healing that they would make sure their mouthpiece knew healing spells. Just like the sorcerer is likely to choose different spells for different reasons than the wizard would, the oracle, or rather the spirits behind the oracle, would be likely to see different spells as important than a cleric and his god would. I personally would like to see a separate spell list, or barring that, tapping into the druid spell list more than the cleric. The force of nature that the druids have going for them just seems like a better fit for someone who is acting as the embodiment of something. And the whole oracles and healing is the same vibe I got with the alchemist and everyone insisting that the share infusion discovery be automatic. I don't honestly know if either the alchemist with his self infusions or the oracle without built-in default healing capability would work or not, but until it is tried, we will never know.
See, I still stand by my origional post. Drop the focus spells by 2 levels , so they start at 1st instead of 3rd. Add to THIS list those spells that would fit the Oracle's focus, thus beefing up his/her spell selection, AND preserving the flavor of the class. The divine list spells can then be used for cure spells, support spells, whatever you want, thus allowing the Oracle to maintain it's uniqueness, while still serving the divine caster role, at whatever extent the party needs. The Oracle won't be able to do everything a cleric does, however you arn't playing a cleric , so that's fine. The Oracle can do things a cleric can't.
Alright, as I have been involved in a playtest of higher level (14th) and am playing an Oracle of Stone, I figured I would toss out what I have learned.
First off, regarding the spells - Yes, the Healing is slightly limited in compared to the cleric. But, what cleric has the ability to cast a non-prepared remove spell multiple times a day? The spell list is up to the player to put together. in example, my spell list is a majority of cure and status ailment removal. And that was just because it makes sense to me - a healer that can swap a Cure spell to rid a party member of a curse, blindness, deafness or other affliction? Very worth it.
Yes, the spell list is limited at the moment. But I believe APG will solve that with some more spells. That said - the basic cleric list contains enough to get by with. You want to deal damage, build the oracle that way. Battle Foci and some nifty feat work will allow that.
Next up is the Foci themselves. Yes, the Battle one seems beastly (And is) when you first look at it. But the others also gain some nifty tricks as they progress. Take Clobbering Strike in the Stone Foci - whenever you score a critical hit against an opponent with an attack spell, you can trip as a free action. Seems a little underpowered, right? Add in that some spells allow multiple attacks, or that most of them are ranged touch. So you have spells that can trip on a very rare chance - imagine that ability from longer distances. There are a few others, but as the Stone Foci is the one I am most familiar with, I will stick within it.
Now onto the curses. I am currently playing a deaf Oracle. This does mean I cannot hear - so I am already immune to a good number of spells for will, because they require that I hear the caster. Enthrall is completely useless, as are a number of charm spells. Anything with the sonic descriptor needs to be looked at and go "Will it work against them?" Now, It also brings into effect another thought - since the bonus languages assume you speak them, do you have the ability to read lips, or is it total deafness?
I was torn to between a few of the curses, so let me explain how i viewed them. The vision curse means you have 'muddy vision', but when your vision bonuses go out to longer than your normal vision, think of using other senses. Maybe your hearing is what is giving you the darkvision, like echolocation. Lame - one I *almost* took, this is going to be very powerful in combination with the Battle Foci. The ability to wear heavy armor and move at 25 ft/round is nasty, even if it kicks in at 10th level. Wasting is a problem, excepting that the character gets immunity boosts. So your hard to look at. Honestly, the Tongues was a problem for me to even consider - you speak in tongues during times of stress. But you gain additional languages? Kind of useless, until 10th level.
My only real qualms was the fact that I had to burn out two feats in order to get heavy armor. It has an amazing ability to cast without Arcane Spell Failure, so make use of that. Maybe give it heavier armor as the levels progress?
Now onto actual rules bits -
Mighty Pebble - Does this ability mean that the stone is thrown as part of the standard action, or does it have to wait until another round to be thrown. If it is the second choice, what is the duration on the charge?
Rock Throwing - Does this combine with the Mighty Pebble ability? In such case, does it deal the Mighty Pebble's elemental power AND the base rock damage?
Crystal Sight - The ability is measured in rounds, not minutes. Typo, or is that supposed to occur. It seems a little weak compared to Earth Glide, which lasts minutes on the level.
Steelbreaker Skin - does this ability also work with the 'natural' weapons like claws, bites and a monks unarmed attack?
Right now the oracle is, mechanically, a lousy cleric. The focus abilities, with the possible exception of battle, are hardly any better then the clerics channel energy and 2 sets of domain abilities, and the oracle spellcasting style is just woefully ineffective when compared to the cleric.
The cleric knows all their spells, can spontaneously cast healing spells so they don't run the risk of memorizing anything useless, and gains two sets of bonus spells, and they can cast these spells as soon as they can cast spells of that level. The oracle knows a measly handful of spells, only has one list of bonus spells so they're more likely to be stuck with duds, and they have to wait an extra character level for new spell levels, and they have to wait even one more character level to gain access to their bonus spell of that level. Sure, they cast spontaneously, but the cleric, again, already does that.
They draw spells from the cleric list, which is a list designed for a healer and for a character who knows the entire list, so it's full of situational spells that are all but worthless to the oracle. stone to flesh? What oracle will learn that? You'll need it maybe once in an entire campaign. But when you do need it, your party will lose characters if they don't have it, and the oracle won't have it. And if the APHB includes a bunch of awesome and versatile new cleric spells to help the oracle, then the cleric really will simply remain that much better.
The oracle is a full caster using the cleric spell list. That alone puts them squarely in the cleric's party role - a role they simply cannot fill. Sure, there are personal buffs in the cleric list, and a battle cleric can use them to be a respectable melee fighter. But elemental oracles are inevitably going to amount to subpar sorcerers because the wizard list is just a better list for that kind of elemental spellcasting. And other oracles are either going to be painfully subpar clerics, or just confused characters who don't really do anything at all. Introducing new foci won't change the fact that oracles of most of the existing foci don't really do much of anything at all, and certainly don't do anything that a cleric couldn't do exactly the same, only much better.
The oracle really needs either their own spell list, different casting mechanics, Many more spells known, or a dramatic improvement to the majority of Revelations to make the non-battle foci into more functional builds. I for one like the suggestion of choosing new spells known each day really, but if no changes are made the oracle really is just a wonderfully flavorful but mechanically crippled cleric.
I would love to see a separate spell list for the oracle; it would solve the majority of the problems people have with it. I know it's more space and time, but really for the oracle to stand out from the cleric it's a necessity. Base it mostly around druid and cleric spells, with perhaps a few bard spells to flesh out the edges, and I could see a few of the spells from the sorcerer/wizard list as bonus spells to really flesh out the different foci.
Right now the oracle is, mechanically, a lousy cleric. The focus abilities, with the possible exception of battle, are hardly any better then the clerics channel energy and 2 sets of domain abilities, and the oracle spellcasting style is just woefully ineffective when compared to the cleric.
The cleric knows all their spells, can spontaneously cast healing spells so they don't run the risk of memorizing anything useless, and gains two sets of bonus spells, and they can cast these spells as soon as they can cast spells of that level. The oracle knows a measly handful of spells, only has one list of bonus spells so they're more likely to be stuck with duds, and they have to wait an extra character level for new spell levels, and they have to wait even one more character level to gain access to their bonus spell of that level. Sure, they cast spontaneously, but the cleric, again, already does that.
Alright, I can see on the surface why that is said. Now, step it up a bit farther please. As a cleric, how many times would you prepare a status ailment spell? Once, maybe twice? Truthfully, if you come across a situation that needs ailment removal, you will need it again. The comparison between Cleric and Oracle of any Foci for their casting styles is just like going into an argument between Wizards and Sorcerors. There are a great many things good about both sides. Yes, the Oracle is a very difficult class to choose spells for, but the spells exist. Even within the basic cleric lists, there are a great amount of spells that while might not see alot of light normally, there are always spells like that. The fact that ailment removal can be done like this is a huge boon. Unless you wait a day for the cleric to prepare a bunch of remove curse, or other ailment removal, your stuck. And that can prove costly. Where as the Oracle walks over, and spends a slot to remove it, and moves on. Yes, it limits your spell selections if you go that route a bit, but honestly? I look it over, and out of the cleric list, why not go with ailment removal? I still got a bunch of spells to play with, and the Foci themselves give you some additionals. And while soem Foci have very powerful spells in their lists, some of the revelations are sub par in that list. Bones is a perfect example of this - Animate Dead, Control Undead, and these are automatically added to your spells known list at the appropriate levels. They don't need to be taken, since you learn them automatically.
Now, on the topic of the Foci - the Battle Foci to me seems a little over-powered in comparison to even the cleric. It turns the Oracle into a character whom surpasses a cleric in every aspect. The cleric gains two Domains and the ability that goes with them, some more armor/weapon profs and channel energy. To be truthful, I have been on the Stone Foci with an Oracle, and even seeing it isn't min-maxed but built for my fun first, to say they are not even is easy for me to disagree with. You lose the channel ability, but gain a great number of additional abilities - moving thru/seeing thru that Foci's specialty, or a touch attack of that element. Yes, I can understand if that element is ignored by the creatures you are fighting, but that is what you have weapons for folks. In addition, not all of the elemental revelations attach the descriptor. Mighty Pebble is unassigned 'elemental' damage, wind gives you invisibility, waves give syou punitive form - look over the class and yes, it is different than the cleric. But is the cleric better? In my opinion not - your channel energy does have it's uses, but honestly I will take the ability to excel in an area rather than the blanket that channel energy covers. Yes, there are times where the cleric will excel, but in my opinion, while not humble, The Oracle's revelations give a different spin on things - giving abilities that might not always be used, but they are there, and a great many of them have additional effects that you can use creatively to do other things. Flame wings - light a building on fire from the roof. Maybe use it for light as well as flight? Earth Glide - use it to flee a battle, or to put yourself in a position to flank with a rogue. Sneak attacks are really difficult to block if they come from above a large boulder. Gaseous Form - need I even get into this one's ability to put people in a good place, and it does not expressly say they have to even be touching you....none of them do. I assume they are required to be, but even still, moving out in emergencies.And Bone's Spirit Walk - this ability is both powerful AND could be used to move very quickly. Spirit walk your party, get on the other side of a room with a beholder you are afraid to fight. Boom, you have avoided a big nasty with one ability. And this is just off the top of my head folks,not taking hours to come up with them. The Foci themselves seem balanced to me - I have yet to see why people believe that the Foci other than Battle are under-powered. If you scale Battle back, it turns the Foci to the same 'power level' as the rest. Otherwise, if your party wants a healer, run an oracle with some item creation feats. Brew Potion, Craft Wand all have amazing ideals and can do alot in between - give the wizard, rogue, sorceror and bard wands, potions to the fighter, barbarian, ranger and druid. There, you have extended your spellcasting even farther. Choose a Foci, and figure out how to extend it into various things. Yes, resistances and immunities will pop up and make your Foci useless if you run an elemental type. But there are things to negate everything folks.
Another quick note:
Spiritual Weapon.
My battle-focus Oracle was reaaaally excited for Spiritual weapon.
And then I noticed it functions off of the wisdom modifier of the cleric casting it.
Which makes sense-- it's the _cleric_ spell list. But... I can't think of a wizard/sorceror spell that hinges on having a high intelligence to make it function in the least amount of usefulness.
Some things may need to be erratad in the APG...