So, we've just been presented with the last of the links in the "secondary base class" chain. Theoretically, one could now form a group of nothing but these secondary base classes, and they would perform admirably when stacked up against a group of nothing but the original set. Is this true? Are the New Champions up for the challenge?
What are the roles these new classes fill? Where are they strong? Where are they weak? Can they perform their roles, and are they worth having in a party of New Champions? Let's find out.
Cavalier - Tank/Melee Damage. Analogous to the Paladin, the Fighter, or the Barbarian, a Cavalier should be capable of holding his own against any of these, and perform to expectations when dealing with anything from goblins to boss monsters.
Where Cavalier Is Strong: High HP, high damage, and the Challenge ability are definitely the central features of the class. Utilizing effective tactics, Challenge becomes a bosskiller supreme; focus on one guy once the room is clear and flanking no longer becomes a problem. Order abilities and oaths provide some impressive icing on an already high-damage, high-tank cake. Mmm, delicious.
Where Cavalier Is Weak: Supreme Charge is not a useful capstone. Sure, it's nice and powerful, but compared to Barbarian's Mighty Rage (buffs the primary class ability), Fighter's Weapon Mastery (auto-confirm crit, automatic disarm immunity, improved critical modifier), and Paladin's Holy Champion (banish outsiders on with a single hit and improved Damage Reduction), Supreme Charge is just too situational. It would be nice to see some sort of Challenge improvement to remove the auto-flanking or something. Also, giving them Tactical Feats instead of Inquisitors would make them stronger at their general role of tank, coordinating the party more efficiently.
Can the Cavalier Perform?: Oh yeah it can. Definitely an acceptable tank/frontliner, the Cavalier hits like a brick. With good Summoner synergy (I'll get to that), Supreme Charge and Challenge can be utilized to take high-damage bosses down in no time.
Final Judgement: Fantastic frontliners. Good synergy with the rest of the party, and some strong abilities. Definitely a necessity. Give them a big sword and shield, heavy armor, and let them loose.
Oracle – Divine Caster. Analogous to the Sorceror and the Cleric, with spontaneous cleric casting and ninth level spells, the Oracle is improved even more by its Foci.
Where Oracle Is Strong: Everywhere, really. Oracles are Clerics but spontaneous, and with fascinating extra abilities (Foci and revelations in particular are fantastically powerful). They can blast, they can heal, they can buff, they can even tank if you give them the proper proficiencies and Foci. Thanks to spontaneous casting, Oracles can be even more versatile than a cleric in any given situation.
Where Oracle Is Weak: Nowhere. Oracles are the perfect fusion of Divine and Spontaneous casting.
Can The Oracle Perform?: You bet. The only primary Divine Caster in the New Champions roster, Oracles are definitely good at what they do.
Judgement: Have one in the party if you can't get a Cleric. That is all.
Summoner – A buffer with a pet! Two classes in one! A bit spastic, the summoner can function as scout, secondary buffer, general, frontliner...you get the idea. Super-versatile.
Where The Summoner Is Strong: Eidolon. Eidolon Eidolon Eidolon. Easily their best and most powerful ability, the Summoner is the undisputed master of utilizing summoned creatures; their abilities (Twinned Eidolon, Dimension Dooring Eidolons, Castling with Eidolon, Mighty Guard) simply reinforce this, allowing them to maneuver about the battlefield in ways Druids dream of. Their ability to summon as a spell-like ability makes them the perfect backup; throw out a horde of creatures and gain tactical superiority over your foes. Taking evolutions for the Summoner also gives added versatility; fight alongside your Eidolon like a champion.
Where The Summoner Is Weak: The spell list pigeonholes them into being a tagalong for the Eidolon – not that this is a bad thing (we all knew it was coming, right?). Some of the Eidolon evolutions are a bit overpowered (you know who you are, Spell-Like Ability), and if applied to the summoner, can be really crazy.
Can The Summoner Perform?: Again, a yes. Whatever the role, the Eidolon is probably suited to doing it. Best utilized as a frontliner in a New Champions party, the Eidolon works fantastically as a mount for the Cavalier. Arm it with Gore and watch the Charge damage fly. With the right spells and evolutions, the Summoner can settle in alongside the Eidolon too. Pick up Tactical Feats and watch the Eidolon and your summoned monsters synchronize like a swarm of death.
Final Judgement: Wherever you place them, they're another great class. Front line, back line, they're guaranteed to fill the weak links of the party with no trouble. Take one in a New Champions party.
Witch – Primary Arcane Spellcaster with a few neat new tricks. Analogous to the wizard, with a few nods to 3.5e Warlock.
Where The Witch Is Strong: Ninth-level spells in and of themselves are a world of good, but on top of that, the Witch spell list is a wonderful fusion of Cleric and Wizard, enabling them to backup buff, blast, heal, or whatever they need to do. Hexes in particular are a neat class ability, making them useful even if they've run out of spells for the day. The ability to teach their familiar new tricks is especially great.
Where The Witch Is Weak: Hexes being primarily touch-ranged, combined with low Attack Bonus, low AC, and low HP, makes Witches...want to avoid any combat hexes. The Familiar being easily killed is worse for a Witch than a Wizard's spellbook burning; a Wizard can make a backup. A Witch is screwed.
Does The Witch Perform?: Keeping the familiar out of trouble and utilizing Hexes to fill weak spots on their spell list makes a Witch a powerful and dangerous caster. Again, ninth level spells rule the day.
Final Judgement: Take a Witch along. They're definitely a necessity in a New Champions party.
Alchemist – Item masters with a spastic number of tricks up their sleeves. Like a fusion of the old 3.5 Artificer, a bard, and a rogue.
Where Alchemist Is Strong: The sheer variety of tricks Alchemists have to pull from is astounding. Extracts, bombs, mundane alchemical items, mutagens...an Alchemist probably has something for any given situation. It's like being a dumbed-down Batman. Add to that some really cool Discoveries (Eternal Potion + Grand Mutagen + Extracts = Wow!) and you get a neat self-buffer class. Bombs are also super strong.
Where Alchemist Is Weak: Synergy. It lacks the ability to function well with the rest of its party, lending it a “mine” air that others on the board have already observed. Moreover, Discoveries are cool, but highly specialized – if you don't complete a tree of discoveries, you're punished at higher levels. Mutagen doesn't improve on its own, making its discoveries almost required if you want to tuilize them. Also, the inability to -actually Craft Potions- kind of bothers me. Formula being “known” and not learned, as well as a lack of 0th-level Extracts, also bothers me; Alchemists deserve 0th-level Extracts they can craft like Alchemical items. Throw Anything is nice, but does it add anything?
Does The Alchemist Perform?: Not really. As an itemist class, it's punished by requiring too much specialization in either Bombs, Mutagents, or Potions/poisons. As a crafter, it's punished by the inability to, well, craft properly.
Final Judgement: Fun, but don't hold your breath. Summoner or Inquisitor is a much better fifth wheel on the ol' party wagon. With more alchemical items, it might be made into a really great class.
Inquisitor – Battle bards with cleric spells. Paladins with more spells and self-buffs. Not really inquisiting much at all.
Where Inquisitor Is Strong: Inquisitor has some fantastic buffs in both Judgement (a very misleading name for an ability that buffs you instead of debuffing the enemy) and its spell list. It's a competent front-liner with a decent Attack Bonus and Hit Die, plus its slayer abilities are fantastic. Bardic – I mean, Monster Lore makes for a great tag-in ability to give them all the ins and outs of being Buffy the Vampire Inquisitor.
Where Inquisitor Is Weak: Not doing much inquisiting there. Maybe it ought to be called Slayer. Bonus feats seem unnecessary and tacked-on as a way to show off Tactical Feats early – why aren't they with Cavalier, where the theme would work? Or Summoner, where they could make great use of them?
Does The Inquisitor Perform?: It's better than the Alchemist, that's for sure. As a secondary frontliner, it falls in line with the Summoner's Eidolon in backing up the Cavalier. As a midliner, it has good buffs and healing ability; keep it off the back line.
Final Judgement: Needs a solid theme of “inquisition” and less misleading names (what are you judging, exactly? Yourself?). Mechanically, though, it's a strong front- or mid-line class easily synchronizing with the others. The best fifth wheel in the group.
So what's the final word? How does Cavalier/Oracle/Witch/Summoner/Inquisitor look against the classic Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue/Bard? Do the New Champions stack up to the Icons?
In my opinion, yes. Except for the Alchemist, there's a heck of a lot of synergy between the classes – a Summoner's Eidolon being ridden by a Cavalier, buffed by the Summoner and the Oracle, supported by the Witch and aided by the Inquisitor, makes a strong five-man party with the Oracle in the middle. The synchronized and stacking buffs between all the classes makes for a really scary bit of tactical know-how with the right players, and Tactical Feats in the hands of a Cavalier or a Summoner are just plain hell. Steamrolling through armies seems to be this group's thing; a dungeon will screw over the Eidolon or the Cavalier, but against a group of ten or twenty they're going to find themselves quickly outclassing their foes. A startling lack of Skillmonkey/trapmasters secures the Rogue's place in any party, meaning that, again, Dungeons simply shut this group down.
All in all? Give us more alchemical items and improve the Alchemist's flaws, and we'll have a six-man party able to hold its own against the classics. Nice work, Paizo.
You can also make perception a class skill for the Eidolon and spend one evolution point on a +8 bonus to the roll. Same for Disable device and such.
(optimal use? maybe not.. but the fact that it can do relatively easily is nice if you haven't another option)
-S
You are correct. I did overlook the Alchemist's ability to function as a Rogue. So that's good.
(personally I'd rather use the much-more-nimble and durable Eidolon with Disable Device)
Which raises a new question -- are they too good?
IMHO: the Cavalier, Oracle & Witch are at the same power-level of the basics... then comes the Alchemist, who is a bit better, and then the hell brakes loose with the inquisitor & the summoner
Alchemist is certainly not more powerful than any of the basics; it's substantially under-powered when compared with its nearest relative (the rogue) due to the limitations of its class features, the lack of meaningful power boosts without specializing in discovery trees, the lack of synchronicity between Mutagen and other self-buffs (enhancement bonus bad), and the limit of bombs per day.
Inquisitor is also not substantially more powerful than any of the basics; it is a bard, but a bard focused on killing things. A bard focused on buffing is going to make the entire party better; an inquisitor only makes himself better, and not by much.
Summoner is...an exception. It's a fascinating class. It's unlike any core class, in that it gives you a second party member on top of it. But if that second party member dies, you're screwed. It's got a couple gaping weaknesses easily exploitable and heaven help you if your enemy comes prepared with dispels, banishments, and AoEs.
I'd say that, again, this group is more specialized. Any of them could substitute for any of the base classes that their niche is supposed to fill, with Summoner substituting for Bard most likely. But they aren't much more powerful.
Which raises a new question -- are they too good?IMHO: the Cavalier, Oracle & Witch are at the same power-level of the basics... then comes the Alchemist, who is a bit better, and then the hell brakes loose with the inquisitor & the summoner
The alchemist is better then what exactly? He has a limited use semi powerful thrown weapon that the rogue can do alot more times a day (and alot more damage with multiple attacks). It isnt as versatile as any primary caster, its self buffs are weaker then the druid and takes longer. So where is the edge here? Poison use?
I dont see how all hell breaks loose with either the summoner or the inquisitor. For the most part playtests I've seen show the summoner is good but not better then the 'top tier' current classes. It compares very well with the druid in terms of power.
The inquisitor, seems very balanced with the paladin to me. Its basically a bard with a focus on offense. It isnt going to do anything a paladin isnt capable of in terms of power. Judgement is not more powerful then smite, just more flexible (but less overall power in the long run). Bane is very comparable to divine bond. And the better spellcasting evens out vs full bab/HD. The rest of the abilities obviously dont match up as easily, but they are certainly not out of balance with what the paladin has, just a different focus.(mercies/lay on hands/channel energy/ divine grace/ auras are not inferior to evasion[with a weak ref save], exploit weakness, cunning initiative, tactical feats and track.
|
So, we've just been presented with the last of the links in the "secondary base class" chain. Theoretically, one could now form a group of nothing but these secondary base classes, and they would perform admirably when stacked up against a group of nothing but the original set. Is this true? Are the New Champions up for the challenge?
What are the roles these new classes fill? Where are they strong? Where are they weak? Can they perform their roles, and are they worth having in a party of New Champions? Let's find out.
** spoiler omitted **...
why is everyone worried about "tanks" buffers" and world of warcraft CRAP my group gave 4th ed a try and that was One of the big problems...we dont want to playt WoW...arrgh i cant even text right now..........
why is everyone worried about "tanks" buffers" and world of warcraft CRAP my group gave 4th ed a try and that was One of the big problems...we dont want to playt WoW...arrgh i cant even text right now..........So, we've just been presented with the last of the links in the "secondary base class" chain. Theoretically, one could now form a group of nothing but these secondary base classes, and they would perform admirably when stacked up against a group of nothing but the original set. Is this true? Are the New Champions up for the challenge?
What are the roles these new classes fill? Where are they strong? Where are they weak? Can they perform their roles, and are they worth having in a party of New Champions? Let's find out.
** spoiler omitted **...
The terminology is probably most closely associated with MMO's but the concept always existed in DnD. 4E strictly defines roles but they have to some degree always existed. Combat is a big part of the game whether you want to admit it or not, and how each class fits into combat is important. Whether you want to call him the big stupid fighter, or the tank, the idea that the cavalier fits the role of a front line fighter (or doesnt) is important to its design. The question what does it do well, is an important one. Using terms like tank or buffer is a matter of convenience.
|
why is everyone worried about "tanks" buffers" and world of warcraft CRAP my group gave 4th ed a try and that was One of the big problems...we dont want to playt WoW...arrgh i cant even text right now..........
I think that they're just using shorthand to get an idea across. It's classic for a party to have a fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue. You take that to 3.X and you could have a paladin, cleric, sorcerer, and rogue, and still be a pretty balanced and diverse group.
So you take a look at what qualities the Paladin and Fighter share that allow them to fill the same basic slot of the party, and you realize that they're heavily armed and armored guys who stand in front of the enemies and draw their attention, generally acting as a meat shield.
Roles have existed, they just weren't really explicit until 4th edition. Making a fuss when they are called by a name doesn't change the fact that they're still there.
I take back what i say about the alche, today i played one :P...
The inquisitor seems really powerfull, some threads have the mechianic explanation for this... in my experience (lvl 12, generic equipment), there is Always something i could do (and be almost good as a specialist) in and out of combat, and greater bane+the jugdment+stealth(or invisibility) that allows you to buff yourself= its a win over teams of 1-2 tough monsters... now i have to try a lvl 5 or 7...