I wondered if adding the dimension of pharmacist to the alchemist class may expand his flexibility. I would expect the alchemist to be able to create drugs or medicinals which could do more than just cure wounds and illnesses, but enhance the capabilities of others.
The Book of Vile Darkness offers examples of "drugs" which are sinister in nature by virture of their addicting properties. I recommend opening this option to the Alchemist, but with similar "drugs" or "medicinals" which provide an alchemical bonus, but aren't damaging or addicting.
I'm in my second year of pharmacy school right now (with 3 years of undergrad already under my belt). You, good sir, just made my day hahah.
Does anyone else think that the Alchemist should get Extracts that mimick the "Infusions" that a 3.5 Eberron Artificer can utilize? I honestly think that the two systems of magic are strikingly similar, so I really don't see a problem with making Extracts that work on armor/weapons/items.
So, we've just been presented with the last of the links in the "secondary base class" chain. Theoretically, one could now form a group of nothing but these secondary base classes, and they would perform admirably when stacked up against a group of nothing but the original set. Is this true? Are the New Champions up for the challenge?
What are the roles these new classes fill? Where are they strong? Where are they weak? Can they perform their roles, and are they worth having in a party of New Champions? Let's find out.
** spoiler omitted **...
I agree with you on most things, but I think that you overlooked two crucial points about these classes:
1) The Alchemist has perception and disable device. Since it receives 4+int skills per level (let alone the fact that it's an int-based class), it has plenty of points to throw into both of these skills in order to make it a good "trapmonkey"
2) Alchemist aside, the Inquisitor's skill list contains:
Couple this large list of skills with the fact that the Inquisitor receives 6+int skillpoints per level, and you have yourself a pretty decent "skillmonkey." The only two significant deficits that I see for a "skillmonkey" are the lack of disable device and use magic device. However, both of these are supplied by the Alchemist.
By the same token, I wish people wouldn't complain about people posting the obvious mechanical or thematic defects of a class from a quick readover or an in-depth deconstruction and pass it off as being some great personal sorrow to them.
I hate to be a buzzkill, but I don't need to play an Alchemist to see that it needs brew potion, or to do the math that Mutagen is underpowered at higher levels due to its lack of flexibility in comparison with Barbarian rage, or to see that seven total discoveries is not enough to make alchemists competent at any of their specialties in comparison with the ninth level spells and magic weapons of higher-level characters.
You are not the be-all, end-all of this playtest. The obvious mechanical, thematic, and mathematic flaws need to be exposed too, and playtesting is in fact subjective, NOT objective.
This is not to say that playtesting is somehow unimportant. But theorycraft is important as well. So don't make it out like it's some big deal that theorycrafters are shredding these classes. Objectively theorycraft is much more useful than playtesting; it provides a solid base on which to stand, minimums and maximums that are unlikely to come up in Real Play but need to be considered anyway, and things that anyone could point out as needing fixing.
You just come off looking like a jackass when you complain like this.
Now, putting words into peoples' mouths and accusing paizo of some sort of conspiracy, that I can get behind.
I agree. There's nothing wrong with shredding defects in the classes. However, I think that the main complaint here (aside from people who aren't being respectful) is that a lot of the time the criticism is purely destructive in nature. Two things need to be considered:
1) Criticism over flaws should cut to the bone, but it needs to be balanced with pointing out what is actually GOOD about what has been presented to us.
2) Criticism shouldn't just be left at the level of complaints--helpful suggestions for improvement should be made. Stopping at the "I hate this. Fix it." line of thinking doesn't help anybody.
More support, more alchemical items alleviating this handily.
The ability to brew potions. Learning new extracts. Better use of alchemical items.
More discoveries, at more levels - they don't do enough to restrict them 1 every 4 and they screw you up bad if you don't focus on a single path.
Better mutagens and extracts. A larger list of extracts.
Research journal.
Golem-creation, chimera-making, and maybe a few nods to Fullmetal Alchemist's Alchemy flavor without actually -making- it a transmuter would be pretty neat.
Lead to gold without wasting a discovery. Seriously.
I love everything that you just suggested, especially the golem/chimera creation stuff.
+1 for all of this.
I really do not see the logic in preventing the ALCHEMIST learn new ALCHEMICAL FORMULAE. You know, like an alchemist would. Really
I believe they're treating these new classes much like I would: They start off nerfing the crapload out of them to get a good baseline as to what is considered to be "normal" vs. "too weak," then they proceed to make them more powerful as data starts to roll in. I've always believed that it's easier to strengthen something than to weaken something--you have less resistance to move against.
I certainly do agree with you. I find that it's best to try it first BEFORE making up your mind on the matter. One thing that people seem to keep having a problem with is how each individual envisions the same class concept. I think the best way to address this is for a person to post educated, fair suggestions about changes while indicating what your view of the class is. One should be respectful in all intelligent discourses, as it's the most decent thing you can do.
(a) Free Brew Potion feat with text that allows an Alchemist to qualify for any and all spell requirements necessary in the crafting of potions (they'd still have to fork out the material component cost)
(b) Ability to learn new extracts. The idea of an Alchemist "forgetting" extract formulae in between levels is absolutely silly to me (flavor-wise, if not mechanically). I foresee a hybrid system wherein an Alchemist can learn new extracts each level like a wizard is able to, adding them to his total list. After they have been added to his net list, he is able to utilize any of the formulae available to him in a spontaneous manner (as he is currently able to). New extracts gained through luck or through study could be added to his formulae list as well (as the wizard).
(c) Better use of existing Alchemical items.
(d) More "path" diversity. The discoveries help a player to create an alchemist with specific areas of focus, but giving a player the option of choosing something along the lines of a domain-like set of abilities would help further differentiate an alchemist's various capabilities.
(e) An expanded extract list that includes things similar to the Artificer's Infusions from 3.5 Eberron. For example, an Alchemist may coat his weapons or armor in certain extracts that give them various weapon/armor properties and/or abilities. The extract system is essentially identical to the infusion system in both mechanics and flavor, so I don't foresee any problems with creating specific extracts like those found in the Artificer class.
(f) Giving the Alchemist a Discovery that would allow him to "hold" the effects of a small number of extracts indefinitely. This would be after he has imbibed them and would last until he chooses to activate their effects as a free, swift, or possibly immediate action. As I said before, it would be a limited number of extracts (scales with level?). This would help to decrease the losses that the Alchemist currently suffers in the action economy.
More support, more alchemical items alleviating this handily.
The ability to brew potions. Learning new extracts. Better use of alchemical items.
More discoveries, at more levels - they don't do enough to restrict them 1 every 4 and they screw you up bad if you don't focus on a single path.
Better mutagens and extracts. A larger list of extracts.
Research journal.
Golem-creation, chimera-making, and maybe a few nods to Fullmetal Alchemist's Alchemy flavor without actually -making- it a transmuter would be pretty neat.
Lead to gold without wasting a discovery. Seriously.
I love everything that you just suggested, especially the golem/chimera creation stuff.
Since I made one about the Inquisitor it seems fitting that there should be one for the alchemist as well.
1) An ability somewhere early that allows him to ready his bombs as a swift action. Using up a full-round action every time you want to throw a bomb does not sound fun.
2) Mutagen scaling with levels to some degree. This has been covered pretty well in another thread.
3) The Infusion discovery a core part of the class.
4) Some way to combine Bomb effects. Possibly a high level discovery.
5) A bomb that dispels magic would be pretty sweet.
And that's it. I really like the Alchemist and just think he needs some minor adjustments.
I think those are all great suggestions. I would add:
(a) Free Brew Potion feat.
(b) Mutation gives a non-enhancement bonus.
(c) Ability to learn new extracts, either by anazlying a potion or from another alchemist's repertoire.
(d) Faster progression for new discoveries (e.g. 1/3 levels instead of 1/4 levels).
(e) An extract list that's based on spell (sub)schools rather than an idiosyncratic list (e.g. "Alchemists can learn an extract based on any spell that has a target of one or more creatures or a target of 'You', and is in one of the following schools: transmutation, divination, conjuration (healing), illusion, or abjuration").
I'll have to try actually playtesting the class before confirming my initial suspicions, of course.
(a) Free Brew Potion feat with text that allows an Alchemist to qualify for any and all spell requirements necessary in the crafting of potions (they'd still have to fork out the material component cost)
(b) Ability to learn new extracts. The idea of an Alchemist "forgetting" extract formulae in between levels is absolutely silly to me (flavor-wise, if not mechanically). I foresee a hybrid system wherein an Alchemist can learn new extracts each level like a wizard is able to, adding them to his total list. After they have been added to his net list, he is able to utilize any of the formulae available to him in a spontaneous manner (as he is currently able to). New extracts gained through luck or through study could be added to his formulae list as well (as the wizard).
(c) Better use of existing Alchemical items.
(d) More "path" diversity. The discoveries help a player to create an alchemist with specific areas of focus, but giving a player the option of choosing something along the lines of a domain-like set of abilities would help further differentiate an alchemist's various capabilities.
(e) An expanded extract list that includes things similar to the Artificer's Infusions from 3.5 Eberron. For example, an Alchemist may coat his weapons or armor in certain extracts that give them various weapon/armor properties and/or abilities. The extract system is essentially identical to the infusion system in both mechanics and flavor, so I don't foresee any problems with creating specific extracts like those found in the Artificer class.
(f) Giving the Alchemist a Discovery that would allow him to "hold" the effects of a small number of extracts indefinitely. This would be after he has imbibed them and would last until he chooses to activate their effects as a free, swift, or possibly immediate action. As I said before, it would be a limited number of extracts (scales with level?). This would help to decrease the losses that the Alchemist currently suffers in the action economy.
I have heard a lot of folks wondering why the alchemist does not have Brew Potion. We did not include this initially due to the different way that extracts and formulae work. That said, there are some pretty simple work-arounds here to fix this issue and I am considering a number of them. It does seem a bit odd to me thematically that the class does not have this ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Here's an idea: Why don't you just give the feat to the class in its level progression? Additionally, I would suggest that you add wording to the feature that would essentially allow the Alchemist to qualify for any spell requirements necessary in the brewing of potions (material component costs would still need to be forked out, of course).
EDIT: It would also help if I actually read the rest of the previous posts prior to posting something hahah. Most people were thinking the same sort of thing that I was.
I've always liked MoI quite a bit for the fluff. The crunch of the classes and the melds themselves have always left me struggling to find a way to use them. Other than the Totemist, it's very hard to use the classes as written.
The Incarnate gets lots of melds but most of them don't do anything offensive. You're basically a wizard with nothing but buff spells. The melds are cool and useful in a passive/defensive manner, but an Incarnate doesn't replace a primary or even secondary spellcaster.
The Soulborn doesn't get meaningful melds until mid-level. Until then you're a paladin with nothing useful to do.
In my opinion Incarnum needs two things: the classes need a rebuild so that they're capable of being used in place of existing classes in the traditional four-character party, and additional melds need to be created for the Incarnate such that it can actually do something active instead of purely passive.
I may get around to either or both of these projects in the future as I'd really love to play some Incarnum.
I completely agree with you. The Incarnate is the one who needs the most help, imho. The Totemist can almost be converted as it's written, as it was a very well-designed class. It seemed to get all of the love from the developers.
I would propose that you give the Incarnate 3/4ths BAB, a redesigned complement of skills, and then some actual "combat" soulmelds. There have been some really great ones that people have designed--I'll dig them up when I have the time. Those are just my starting suggestions. I also developed an extra class ability that basically let Incarnates (and only Incarnates) "shift" a chakra bind to an open chakra. I'll post that here when I find where I put the write up lol.
I think the Absorb Spell (Immediate Casting) is one heck of a capstone ability! But I also made some epic level feats for the Spellthief that might not be too "epicky" and able to add to a Pathfinderized spellthief without getting too uber.
One was Absorb Area Effect. This let the spellthief use their absorb spell ability on area effects they were affected by....so they could get fireballed, absorb it, and then launch it back at who cast it at them. Others in the original Area of Effect would still suffer from the fireball.
The other was Devour Area Effect. If the spellthief successfully absorbed an area of effect spell, the whole spell would be negated (and absorbed by the spellthief, allowing him to launch back at its original caster or whatever).
Maybe change the spellthief to:
7. Absorb Spell
11. Absorb Area Spell
15. Absorb Spell (immediate casting)
20. Devour Area Spell
Also, what's an Incarnate and MoI? Psionics? I know squat about them.
Those are some pretty good ideas. They don't seem too ridiculous at a first glance, but I do kind of wonder how powerful they'd be when you played them out.
To answer your question, the Incarnate was a class from what is (at least in my opinion) one of the coolest ideas for an alternative magic system--Magic of Incarnum (MoI). To give you the basic gist, here's a link to the product spotlight from wizards of the coast:
The Incarnate was basically a cross between a cleric and a wizard for the purposes of the system. The biggest complaint people had with the incarnate was the fact that it wasn't as viable in combat as it really should have been. Most people thought that the Incarnate deserved 3/4ths BAB instead of 1/2 (among other issues). Consequently, the Totemist (the book's druid) got all of the attention.
I would love to see some of the soulmelds and the Incarnate converted to Pathfinder.
I think a Spellthief can already do the second thing. When they steal a spell, they can either re-cast the spell, or use the spell energy to cast one of the spells they know from the spellthief list, provided the stolen spell level is at least as high as the spellthief spell. A spellthief can hold a number of spell levels in ready like this equal to his class level.
I might have been mistaken on that one. It's been a while since I looked at the write up of the spellthief's abilities.
What's everyone's opinion on giving the spellthief bard casting progression?
Also, I'll direct everybody's attention to this remake of the spellthief:
Spellthief (click the spellthief hyperlink on the post)
A few noteworthy changes in this spellthief remake:
1) A spellthief can keep stealing spell resistance (in a minor way)
2) The progression of Spellgrace now takes it to +5 by level 20
3) There are a few good ideas for talents and advanced talents
4) There is a capstone ability at level 20 (I think it may be a bit on the complicated/broken side)
In short, I think SmiloDan's Spellthief is way better, but there are a few good ideas that could be garnered from the other and applied to his. We should develop a capstone ability to keep players interested in the class for all 20 levels.
I'd really love to see what you'd do to the Incarnate and MoI, SmiloDan hahah.
Oooo - there are some nice ones in there! The Spellthief player in my game wanted to be more of a thieving sorceror type - so I gave him Bard spell progression and it hasn't caused any trouble or seemed unbalanced yet. (Now 10th level)
I made up one for 3rd level he wanted to steal a spell without sneaking. We couldn't figure out a way to let him do this (I may just be blind) and invented the following.
Blatant Theft: Beginning at 3rd level, a spellthief can use a standard action to attack any spellcaster to steal any un-cast spell or spells that the target has. If they hit, they deal normal damage and can attempt to use their Steal Spell ability as if they had made a successful sneak attack. The target receives a Will save to deny this (much more obvious) assault. The SR of the Will Save is 10 + 1/2 Spell Thief level + Spell Thief's Int bonus.
Looking back, I might allow it to steal active spells too.
I really liked the idea behind your ability (good job!), so I have attempted to retool it in an effort to expand its capabilities while keeping it reasonably balanced.
Blatant Theft: Beginning at 3rd level, a spellthief may attempt to steal the abilities of his enemies through more direct means. As part of a standard attack action, a spellthief can attempt to use their Steal Spell, Steal Spell Effect, Steal Spell-like Ability, Steal Energy Resistance, or Steal Spell Resistance ability as if they had made a successful sneak attack. The spellthief must declare which ability he is using prior to resolving the attack. If the spellthief hits, they deal normal damage and the target receives a Will save to resist this ability. The SR of the Will Save is 10 + 1/2 the spellthief's level + the spellthief's Cha bonus. A spellthief may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
As I said, I really like this ability, but I also like SmiloDan's spellthief, so I'm throwing that ability on his remake for my campaign.
In terms of extra Talents for SmiloDan's very awesome remake, here's an idea for a regular one:
Arcane Guile: As an immediate action, a spellthief can redirect any spell or spell-like ability (assuming he's of the right level) targeting an ally within 30ft upon himself. A spellthief can redirect touch spells in this way. Such spells use their original attack roll against the spellthief's AC. A spellthief may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
At a first glance, you may think "...Wait, what?!?"--Look closer! The idea behind this ability is that it can be used in conjunction with the Spellthief's Absorb Spell ability. However, because it's an immediate action, it's impossible for a spellthief to redirect a spell absorbed in this manner on the round that he absorbed it. I haven't decided whether or not that's a good thing yet, but there's always room for an advanced talent to beef it up (with some other added benefits, of course).
And here's an idea for an unrelated Advanced Talent:
Arcane Vigor: Through his constant exposure to spells, a spellthief has learned true control over their energies, using them to restore his own natural spellcasting abilities. Once per day as a full round action, a spellthief may expend any number of his stolen or absorbed spells, breaking them up into their component energies. With this energy, a spellthief may regain his choice of spell slots up to a total spell level less than or equal to the combined spell level of the spells expended. This ability may not be used to exceed the maximum spells per day that a character can cast (IE you can't use it to gain "extra" slots on top of your regular ones).
This ability may not be the most well-worded, so I apologize. Also, if once per day is seemingly on the weak side of things, you could try adding another 1-2 uses.
