Those are some good points. The only thing i disagree with is the last bit(though the needle idea is great!) the infusion discovery takes care of that even if it is a bit restrictive still. As to the elixers becoming inert i agree, how about making it so that they are tuned to a specific metabolism and setting up a table, if you drink somebody elses elixer roll a d20 and check to elixer table, and some random thing happens to you 1:really bad 2-18: 19:good 20: gain orignal effect.
I also concur with this assessment. I agree that something along the lines of inertness is necessary for the sake of game balance, and I agree that Ken has some good ideas for achieving this.
I believe that alchemists should be much less about magical effects and more about messy, smelly chemicals. Their concoctions should NOT be magical effects or even tainted by magic; indeed, alchemists should be the first of a "new philosophy" that produces magic-like effects without resorting to the arcane at all. Of course, this really rankles wizards, but it makes the alchemist a truly unique class.
Making his elixirs (and other stuff) dependent on some sort of inner magical resonance with himself is kinda hokey, IMO. Sorry to be so blunt. Much better than other PCs have a pretty good chance of causing mishaps if they try to use them (which can be mitigated at higher levels by the alchemist's increased training and experience).
If we think of the alchemist as a scientist instead of a quasi-wizard, we'll be a long ways into making something very classic, interesting, AND balanced.
I think...
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Those are some good points. The only thing i disagree with is the last bit(though the needle idea is great!) the infusion discovery takes care of that even if it is a bit restrictive still. As to the elixers becoming inert i agree, how about making it so that they are tuned to a specific metabolism and setting up a table, if you drink somebody elses elixer roll a d20 and check to elixer table, and some random thing happens to you 1:really bad 2-18: 19:good 20: gain orignal effect.
Random tables are not good... It goes away from a lot of the core paizo design philosophy. How many random charts have you seen in the game so far? I would do what they do with Mutagen which is require a fort save or be sickened with no chance to gain the beneficial effect. There is a discovery for it. You can always sight biological differences, or that the Alchemist has slowly been making himself immune to the adverse effects of some of the reagents( like the poison drinking scene in The Princess Bride ).
That's pretty much my response. The magic vs chemical is what really bothered me about the class. The magic fluff. I'm ok with formulae that simulate spells (easiest that way, no need to add in a bunch of new mechanics to duplicate existing mechanics).
But 'magical aura' bothers me. I'd expect an alchemists stuff to work in an anti-magic field, not be shut down as well. Would give the class a buff nobody else has (my stuff works here!).
I agree that the feel here is very gamist - the "alchemist's magical aura," besides falling on the magic side of the magic/science debate on alchemists, just seems wonky.
Heck, I don't even see the problem with letting other folks consume the alchemist's stuff, though I guess it means they don't have to be a "selfish caster..." But the limitation of being a selfish caster really only makes sense if your stuff is better than average, not worse.
The one thing to look out for is an entire party tossing in a bunch of bombs all at once for a nova effect...
I agree that the feel here is very gamist - the "alchemist's magical aura," besides falling on the magic side of the magic/science debate on alchemists, just seems wonky.
Heck, I don't even see the problem with letting other folks consume the alchemist's stuff, though I guess it means they don't have to be a "selfish caster..." But the limitation of being a selfish caster really only makes sense if your stuff is better than average, not worse.
The one thing to look out for is an entire party tossing in a bunch of bombs all at once for a nova effect...
Agreed on the "gamist" angle. I'd feel a bit more different were this the "Explodeymancer" or "Crazed Apothecary" or something more lyrical instead but not a name as iconic as "Alchemist." I'm really wanting more alchemy feel, and I'm not really seeing that except for the capstones.
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Agreed on the "gamist" angle. I'd feel a bit more different were this the "Explodeymancer" or "Crazed Apothecary" or something more lyrical instead but not a name as iconic as "Alchemist." I'm really wanting more alchemy feel, and I'm not really seeing that except for the capstones.I agree that the feel here is very gamist - the "alchemist's magical aura," besides falling on the magic side of the magic/science debate on alchemists, just seems wonky.
Heck, I don't even see the problem with letting other folks consume the alchemist's stuff, though I guess it means they don't have to be a "selfish caster..." But the limitation of being a selfish caster really only makes sense if your stuff is better than average, not worse.
The one thing to look out for is an entire party tossing in a bunch of bombs all at once for a nova effect...
Yeah. The class really seems like "bombs are great" with a couple other things added in as after thoughts to allow for a little variation. The main focus of the class definitely seems to be bombs as opposed to Extracts or Mutagens.
If you want to see a really good stab at an alchemist, check out Bastion Press' "Alchemy & Herbalism." They started with the idea that alchemists are non-magical and make a bunch of...well...alchemical items, like we already see in the game. The tindertwig, sunrod, alchemist's fire...kids' stuff.
The philosopher's stone, elixir of life, and other very iconic alchemical things...the stuff of legendary alchemistry.
Granted, Paizo can't copy what Bastion Press did, but I think they'd get a lot further with this class with some old fashioned mimicry.
I agree on the gamist angle as well. One thing that caught my eye was the extract formula. When reading that I was thinking it would be like a wizard's spell book. I envisioned alchemists lugging around a book full of crazy formulas and possibly sharing and selling with each other. But was dissapointed seeing it was like the sorcerer by having a formula known list.
My 2 coppers.
Infusions should be allowed without making you use a discovery to take it.
In fact, any extract/bomb/mutagen should be allowed to be used by others with a penalty just for other classes using bombs. If you don't at least allow extracts and mutagen be used by other PC's, then what good is the class? You'd be better off playing a cleric or an oracle.
The extract/bomb/mutagen that the alchemist makes should have an expiration date but not be restricted to just him.
I agree, I don't think a discovery should be necessary to share your "spells". I understand why the other PCs cant just hold on to your "potions," by why can't my Alchemist feed the potion TO the other character (mechanically replicating a spell). I think this would really help the class out as it gives it the utility I think it was trying for but...just...couldnt...get...there...
An example, during today's playtest some baddie used Air Walk. We didn't have an arcane caster and our cleric was out of the picture at this point. As it was, the Alchemist could drink his potion of fly and go plink away at the baddie's HP with his simple weapons (even though he was better of chucking potions at her), how great would it have been for the Alchemist to dig around in his satchel, pull out a fly potion, and pour it down one of the more melee focused guys (who could have dealt with the problem). I don't feel this would be game breaking as its simply filling a niche.
Edit - As an after thought, yes I realize there is a discovery for this. But discoveries are a very precious resource, and I just want to emphasize that I dont think a discovery should be required in the case of the Alchemist directly applying the potion to another party member.
If you want to see a really good stab at an alchemist, check out Bastion Press' "Alchemy & Herbalism." They started with the idea that alchemists are non-magical and make a bunch of...well...alchemical items, like we already see in the game. The tindertwig, sunrod, alchemist's fire...kids' stuff.
The philosopher's stone, elixir of life, and other very iconic alchemical things...the stuff of legendary alchemistry.
But then that raises the question: "Why do we need to drag an alchemist around with us when we can leave an NPC alchemist at home and just use all of the neat stuff he creates ourselves?"
Personally, I have no problem with a fantasy alchemist in a magical world using "magical science" to create items (although I probably would have referred to the alchemist infusing an extract with "quintessence" rather than his "magical aura").
For those concerned about the "gamist" feel of the Alchemist imbuing part of his magical aura into his potions, a literary equivalent would be Harry Dresden from the Dresden Files series of books. Harry imbues his potions with some of his magical power to create a temporary magical potion that will degrade with time. In the Dresden books, the actual ingredients are only important in what they symbolize, not the actual formula. The ingredients act as a base/stabilizer, while Harry's magic that he imbues into the potions are what gives them their power.
Which is what alchemy is. What people here are asking for is chemistry... completely different beast.
Note of the Day -- Magic is pseudoscience is magic.
If you want to see a really good stab at an alchemist, check out Bastion Press' "Alchemy & Herbalism." ...But then that raises the question: "Why do we need to drag an alchemist around with us when we can leave an NPC alchemist at home and just use all of the neat stuff he creates ourselves?"
Which begs the obvious response: "Why do we need to drag a wizard around with us when we can leave an NPC wizard at home and just use all of the neat items, potions and scrolls he creates ourselves?"
Hopefully, the whole point of the alchemist is to provide a class that kinda-sorta looks and feels like a spellcaster but really isn't. He works with the mundane to create pseudo-magical effects. How he does it is fluff text and may be debated forever.
Which begs the obvious response: "Why do we need to drag a wizard around with us when we can leave an NPC wizard at home and just use all of the neat items, potions and scrolls he creates ourselves?"If you want to see a really good stab at an alchemist, check out Bastion Press' "Alchemy & Herbalism." ...But then that raises the question: "Why do we need to drag an alchemist around with us when we can leave an NPC alchemist at home and just use all of the neat stuff he creates ourselves?"
Because the wizard also has a totally awesome class feature called "spellcasting" that requires him to be physically present. Is there a similar awesome class feature for Bastion Press's alchemist that you neglected to mention?
Because the wizard also has a totally awesome class feature called "spellcasting" that requires him to be physically present. Is there a similar awesome class feature for Bastion Press's alchemist that you neglected to mention?
No, it doesn't require him to be there. All the wizard really has to do is write it down and give the scroll to someone else to cast. A wizard can write a week's worth of scrolls and carry around 7 times the spellcasting power he has in his head.
I suggest it's perfectly fine for the alchemist to do the same.
Regarding the wizard's "totally awesome class feature" of being present on scene, it is also the alchemist's advantage in that he (like the wizard) can perform his craft on the spot, whipping up just the right concoction to counter the challenge on hand. It might even be more of an awesome feature for the alchemist because, unlike the wizard, he is not limited to an arbitrary capacity for memory. (Or at least, he shouldn't be...)
What if, after the infusion leaves the alchemists hands, it degrades into inertness within 1d4 hours/minutes?
Doesn't kill the "gamist-ness/magic-ness" feel of it, but an alchemist in town won't ruin the economy of potions...Would it be that game breaking to be able to share infusions at low level?
Bombs, I can see balance-wise, and they are unstable and take a knowledgeable alchemist's hand to use.
What if, after the infusion leaves the alchemists hands, it degrades into inertness within 1d4 hours/minutes?
Doesn't kill the "gamist-ness/magic-ness" feel of it, but an alchemist in town won't ruin the economy of potions...Would it be that game breaking to be able to share infusions at low level?
Bombs, I can see balance-wise, and they are unstable and take a knowledgeable alchemist's hand to use.
To me, the whole idea of an elixir remaining viable so long as the alchemist holds it is more than a bit cheesy. Of course, I'm coming from the presupposition that an alchemist is more about pseudo-science than pseudo-magic. From that angle, then, having an elixir degrade simply because he's not touching it anymore is silly. That said, the concept of degradation is a nice touch.
What if ALL his elixirs degraded in a matter of time regardless of who's holding them? How would that work?
To me, the whole idea of an elixir remaining viable so long as the alchemist holds it is more than a bit cheesy. Of course, I'm coming from the presupposition that an alchemist is more about pseudo-science than pseudo-magic. From that angle, then, having an elixir degrade simply because he's not touching it anymore is silly. That said, the concept of degradation is a nice touch.
What if ALL his elixirs degraded in a matter of time regardless of who's holding them? How would that work?
Yeah, once it's mixed, it begins dying...
I don't think there should be any daily limits on the number of bombs the alchemist can use. They cause damage that is pretty much identical to the warlock's eldritch blast, and the warlock isn't broken with its at will eldritch blasts. Also, it's kind of weird that a character as smart as the average alchemist "forgets" how to make a specific alchemical compound, especially since he was able to remember how to do it several times earlier that day.
Maybe to make it a little bit more realistic, replace the bomb-making material mechanic that is a quasi-spell component pouch with an alchemist's kit mechanic that is similar, mechanically, with the healer's kit. It's a relatively negligble cost, but more realistic and there is still a way to run out of "charges" or uses of the alchemist's abilities.
Maybe to make it a little bit more realistic, replace the bomb-making material mechanic that is a quasi-spell component pouch with an alchemist's kit mechanic that is similar, mechanically, with the healer's kit. It's a relatively negligble cost, but more realistic and there is still a way to run out of "charges" or uses of the alchemist's abilities.
For Pete's sake, Smilo, that's possibly the most obvious solution ever!
An alchemist's kit has limited uses (like a healer's kit), so why the heck not? It's a godawful heavy thing to tote around and it costs a lot to replenish...BUT, he can make stuff on the fly--anything he has written down in his "research journal." Anyone can use what he makes, but it all has a "shelf life."That's settles it for me, guys. Chew on it for a while and see how it tastes.
I don't think there should be any daily limits on the number of bombs the alchemist can use. They cause damage that is pretty much identical to the warlock's eldritch blast, and the warlock isn't broken with its at will eldritch blasts. Also, it's kind of weird that a character as smart as the average alchemist "forgets" how to make a specific alchemical compound, especially since he was able to remember how to do it several times earlier that day.
Maybe to make it a little bit more realistic, replace the bomb-making material mechanic that is a quasi-spell component pouch with an alchemist's kit mechanic that is similar, mechanically, with the healer's kit. It's a relatively negligble cost, but more realistic and there is still a way to run out of "charges" or uses of the alchemist's abilities.
It's not "forgets" so much as it is "runs out of energy". He could probably make the formula part out of bug juice really, it's the personal touch of his aura that makes it work.
maybe some history on the subject would help:
Honestly this isn't science and never was... it was magical, and magic was the expected means and process.
Maybe to make it a little bit more realistic, replace the bomb-making material mechanic that is a quasi-spell component pouch with an alchemist's kit mechanic that is similar, mechanically, with the healer's kit. It's a relatively negligble cost, but more realistic and there is still a way to run out of "charges" or uses of the alchemist's abilities.For Pete's sake, Smilo, that's possibly the most obvious solution ever!
An alchemist's kit has limited uses (like a healer's kit), so why the heck not? It's a godawful heavy thing to tote around and it costs a lot to replenish...BUT, he can make stuff on the fly--anything he has written down in his "research journal." Anyone can use what he makes, but it all has a "shelf life."That's settles it for me, guys. Chew on it for a while and see how it tastes.
I was proposing a new item, the Alchemist's Kit, which would have a cost and weight similar to a Healer's Kit, which isn't THAT heavy. I wasn't proposing toting an Alchemist's Lab into a dungeon!!!
Another idea I had was that Alchemists should have an Alchemical Grab Bag. Similar to that class feature from the Pathfinder Guide or whatever PrC, it would be 50 or 100 gp per level of alchemist worth of generic alchemical items, whose costs would be deducted from the limit until the alchemist restocked in town. For example, a sunrod would deduct 2 gp from the Grab Bag, an alchemist fire would be 20 gp, a tinder twig would a sp or cp or whatever.
<Grins sheepishly>
I saw "kit" and read "lab." My bad. Still, I think yours is a splendid idea and an easy one to implement.
And here I'm thinking all magical like for labs....Seriously, a mansion type item that leads to an extradimensional lab would be awesome. Perhaps said lab even contains a magical construct (that doesn't work outside the lab) and a link to some sort of extradimensional alchemy shop (leave your gold with the construct and he'll shop while you adventure).
<Grins sheepishly>
I saw "kit" and read "lab." My bad. Still, I think yours is a splendid idea and an easy one to implement.
No worries.
It could even be kind of modular, so several uses could be used to make mundane alchemical items depending on their normal price.