the mutagens ability fell a little short for me. when i first saw it mentioned i physically had to stop myself from skipping ahead to read about it, my mind was racing with what possible "mutations" you would be able to have...
...then i got there, a stat bonus and natural armor.. i guess.
don't get me wrong, is a nice bonus especially if you go the CON route, but to me it's just so bland. i was thinking it would be some kind ability that would allow you to mimic some racial traits or something for s few rounds. i get the concept and what it is, but i think it could have been something more interesting.
After my COTCT game last night, I played around a little bit with the mutagen idea. That got me thinking about the spiritual aspect of real world alchemy.
While Alchemy is considered the root of chemistry, it actually concealed a strong spiritual aspect. Many of the terms that made it in to science were code for spiritual concepts in order to protect the tradition from the Catholic Church. Alchemy draws largely from older hermetic beliefs and practices.
One of the ultimate goals of spiritual alchemy was physical perfection and immortality. This was a transformation from the imperfect and diseased to the perfect and healthy.
To this end, I was thinking that a revised “Mutagen” mechanic might work to mimic spiritual alchemy. Now, I am not saying to do away with the Jekyll and Hyde aspect. After all, people have different views of “perfection.”
I am going to start out by suggesting that mutagen be changed to transcendence (more spiritual and less scientific sounding). It would provide an alchemical bonus and scale as follows:
At 2nd level, +2 alchemy bonus to one physical ability score.
At 8th level, +2 alchemy bonus to two physical ability score.
At 14th level, +2 alchemy bonus to all three physical ability score.
Discoveries can be used to modify the base form. There is no Charisma damage from using transcendence; instead penalties and personality effects are tied to the discoveries. Some examples are:
Feral Transcendence: Gain claw and bite attacks; cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, and Intimidate) or any ability that requires patience or concentration
Monstrous Transcendence: Become one size larger; +2 size bonus to Strength; +2 natural armor (requires one other discovery)
Awakened Transcendence: May apply alchemical bonuses to mental stats
Enlightened Transcendence: Immune to the shaken and frightened conditions; may not use Bluff or Intimidate (cannot lie/threaten); +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive (requires one other discovery)
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The stat bonuses from the Shape spells are size bonuses, so they will stack with the mutagens.
Change the mutagen bonus to an alchemical bonus, flatten them out somewhat so they stack with but do not overwhelm the stat boost items, and throw in some giant/dragon form-like benefits (wings, breath weapon, size change, rock throwing) and it's well on it's way to being workable.
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Even with the combo, the Alchemist needs a ton of time to sit back and swill potions for a few rounds to get into combat.
And even then I feel like it takes away from the Jeckle Hyde motiff...I drink my Hyde mutagen...and then....turn into a dragon.
More like "I drank my Hyde mutagen, but still sucked, so I turned into a dragon".
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Currently, they don't. I was suggesting that Form of the Giant I be added to their "spell" list, and that mutagens change to an alchemical bonus. Then you could have an alchemist with a stat-boost belt drink an extract of Form of the Giant I, then a mutagen to get an alchemical bonus, a size bonus and an enhancement bonus and maybe, just maybe DO something in melee.
Director of Games
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Hey there folks,
I am currently mulling over a number of options for this mechanic, which range from dropping the Cha damage, changing it to a temporary penalty, changing the bonus to alchemical, adding a bit of increase to the bonus, and altering the way the discoveries interact...
That said, I am still looking for more playtest data on the topic...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That said, I am still looking for more playtest data on the topic...
I think this ability is actually different in that a lack of playtesting kind of proves the point. It's not going to see much playtesting, because there's no point in using it, at all. I've tried to come up with a situation where I would bother with it, and haven't come up with one yet. With two items (one admittedly pricey until upper levels) I can nearly mimic the effects of a fully maxed out mutagen, losing only 3 natural armor in the process (and not suffering Cha damage).
I would like to throw in a vote for keeping the Charisma problem, but making it a temporary penalty (perhaps adding the Wisdom penalty that someone else mentioned, since the penalties would be temporary).
EDIT: Forgetting entire words makes sentences read funny.
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Hey there folks,
I am currently mulling over a number of options for this mechanic, which range from dropping the Cha damage, changing it to a temporary penalty, changing the bonus to alchemical, adding a bit of increase to the bonus, and altering the way the discoveries interact...
That said, I am still looking for more playtest data on the topic...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
i'll be throwing a multiclass gnoll alchemist, a gnoll summoner and a gnoll cavalier into my monsters this weekend.
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Director of Games
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That said, I am still looking for more playtest data on the topic...I think this ability is actually different in that a lack of playtesting kind of proves the point...
It has been out for a total of 1 day.. I think we can give it a bit more time...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
i'll be throwing a multiclass gnoll alchemist, a gnoll summoner and a gnoll cavalier into my monsters this weekend.I approve... make them pay!
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I also approve, if for no other reason than gnolls need some love. (Sorry...I think gnolls are cool, but they are horribly underused in most campaigns I've played in.)
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I also approve, if for no other reason than gnolls need some love. (Sorry...I think gnolls are cool, but they are horribly underused in most campaigns I've played in.)i'll be throwing a multiclass gnoll alchemist, a gnoll summoner and a gnoll cavalier into my monsters this weekend.I approve... make them pay!
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Isn't Gnoll love one of Lamashtu's main tenets?
My only question is if you can justify changing over to Alchemical from Enhancement if you go to +8. You could make a pretty mean Alch if you can give yourself a total of +14 to a stat.
Agreed. If the bonus changes type, that makes it more powerful and this should be included in the consideration.
Away from the bonuses, but in line with the terminology, would it be possible to request a more standard nomenclature, along the lines of Lesser/Improved/Greater, rather than the proposed Greater/Grand/Whatever? It is something of a burden having to memorize a different progression of comparative adjectives for each class. This would apply equally to the witch's hexes.
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Away from the bonuses, but in line with the terminology, would it be possible to request a more standard nomenclature, along the lines of Lesser/Improved/Greater, rather than the proposed Greater/Grand/Whatever? It is something of a burden having to memorize a different progression of comparative adjectives for each class. This would apply equally to the witch's hexes.
Greater/Grand/True
My first post, so please don't kill me, people. Yet.
Taken from an analysis that I and some friends did, we come to the following consensus about the Mutagen:
- Change the type of bonus to Alchemy.
- Request a Will save (DC 20, perhaps?) to take any action other than to attack the nearest creature, while under effect. This is in addition to the Charisma damage (who should be in effect only under the Mutagen influence).
- Extend the progression bonus of +2 on Attribute / +1 Natural Armor for every 5 or 6 levels of the Alchemist automatically. Progression could also give a bonus to a secondary attribute equal to half the bonus to the primary attribute.
- The Discovery's should give extra effects to the Mutagen like increasing size, physical characteristics such as claws and wings, extension of effect time and so on. Not just increase the bonus to attributes and Nat Armor.
And sorry for my very bad english.
Greater/Grand/True
In the interest of sanity, consistency, and clear communication, it seems reasonable that there would be a standardized progression of "normal ... better ... best," rather than a different set of such terms for each individual instance.
- The Discovery's should give extra effects to the Mutagen like increasing size, physical characteristics such as claws and wings, extension of effect time and so on. Not just increase the bonus to attributes and Nat Armor.
Man Bat
While I agree the mutagen tends to fall short in the later levels without specialization, it also becomes basically an all day buff once you get it to hour/level. And since you can get rid of the bad effects immediately (let's see, brewed my daily "mr. hyde" potion, now for my daily restoration potion) at little to no cost, i honestly think it's going to be fine as is.
Especially since at level 20 (which is where one my little niggles with the class comes in), you don't really require any specialization into it to make it good, as true mutagen doesn't seem to require the previous mutagen increasing discoveries selected, and in fact makes them look subpar to pick if you're going to make it to 20.
Off hand, the alchemical bonus sounds ok, until we, once again, get into increasing the mutagen's power. With true mutagen, you're getting a +8 (true gives 8, right? i cant remember, but i think it is) to all physical stats that's basically going to stack with ANYTHING, and last you all day with no (well, at this point very minimal) draw back.
A flat progression sounds good, as long as we don't change the bonus type, and remove the improvement through discoveries, and replace with additions to the bonuses (NA attacks, size, etc.)
All in all, though, i'm hesitant to weigh on and change things until i get some actual playtesting going. We're actually making characters this saturday, and one of our group plans on being an alchemist (we're actually gonna have an alchemist, inquisitor, summoner, and oracle, and potentially a witch all in the same game)
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While I agree the mutagen tends to fall short in the later levels without specialization, it also becomes basically an all day buff once you get it to hour/level. And since you can get rid of the bad effects immediately (let's see, brewed my daily "mr. hyde" potion, now for my daily restoration potion) at little to no cost, i honestly think it's going to be fine as is.
Especially since at level 20 (which is where one my little niggles with the class comes in), you don't really require any specialization into it to make it good, as true mutagen doesn't seem to require the previous mutagen increasing discoveries selected, and in fact makes them look subpar to pick if you're going to make it to 20.
Off hand, the alchemical bonus sounds ok, until we, once again, get into increasing the mutagen's power. With true mutagen, you're getting a +8 (true gives 8, right? i cant remember, but i think it is) to all physical stats that's basically going to stack with ANYTHING, and last you all day with no (well, at this point very minimal) draw back.
A flat progression sounds good, as long as we don't change the bonus type, and remove the improvement through discoveries, and replace with additions to the bonuses (NA attacks, size, etc.)
All in all, though, i'm hesitant to weigh on and change things until i get some actual playtesting going. We're actually making characters this saturday, and one of our group plans on being an alchemist (we're actually gonna have an alchemist, inquisitor, summoner, and oracle, and potentially a witch all in the same game)
Actually a couple of points,
it's a +6 for grand mutagen which requires three previous discoveries (meaning level 16 before you get it) one of which has to be grand mutagen, so no you can't just take the highest level one you have to use 2 of your 5 discoveries to get a decent mutagen. It provides an enhancement bonus (which means it stacks with very little) So while you are right it's a decent all day buff, it isn't as good as you make it out to be.
i'm talking about true mutagen, the grand discovery (level 20), which as far as i can tell has no pre reqs to select.
Edit: also, the alchemist gets 6 discoveries, not 5. 1 at 4th, 1 at 8th, 1 at 12th, 1 at 16th, and 2 at 20th plus a grand discovery. unless, of course, something has changed since the PDF came out that i dont know of.
I also checked while i was at it, true mutagen is +6 to all stats and +8 to NA, and I doubled checked and still see no pre-reqs
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i'm talking about true mutagen, the grand discovery (level 20), which as far as i can tell has no pre reqs to select.
Edit: also, the alchemist gets 6 discoveries, not 5. 1 at 4th, 1 at 8th, 1 at 12th, 1 at 16th, and 2 at 20th plus a grand discovery. unless, of course, something has changed since the PDF came out that i dont know of.
I also checked while i was at it, true mutagen is +6 to all stats and +8 to NA, and I doubled checked and still see no pre-reqs
Yup, if you are going to be taking True Mutagen, Grand and Greater are useless.
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i'm talking about true mutagen, the grand discovery (level 20), which as far as i can tell has no pre reqs to select.
Edit: also, the alchemist gets 6 discoveries, not 5. 1 at 4th, 1 at 8th, 1 at 12th, 1 at 16th, and 2 at 20th plus a grand discovery. unless, of course, something has changed since the PDF came out that i dont know of.
I also checked while i was at it, true mutagen is +6 to all stats and +8 to NA, and I doubled checked and still see no pre-reqs
EDIT: Oh your talking about the capstone, yeah I don't really care about that, you shouldn't have to take pre-reqs for a capstone ability and it only affects one level of play. So True mutagen doesn't bother me and is actually super suck as a capstone if you've taken the previous discoveries, ooh I got to 20th level and I got a +2 bonus to natural armor and a +4 to one stat and a +2 to another. That's actually a pretty lame capstone in those circumstances. I think true mutagen is specifically for those who didn't build their mutagen with discoveries.
EDIT: Oh your talking about the capstone, yeah I don't really care about that, you shouldn't have to take pre-reqs for a capstone ability and it only affects one level of play. So True mutagen doesn't bother me and is actually super suck as a capstone if you've taken the previous discoveries, ooh I got to 20th level and I got a +2 bonus to natural armor and a +4 to one stat and a +2 to another. That's actually a pretty lame capstone in those circumstances. I think true mutagen is specifically for those who didn't build their mutagen with discoveries.i'm talking about true mutagen, the grand discovery (level 20), which as far as i can tell has no pre reqs to select.
Edit: also, the alchemist gets 6 discoveries, not 5. 1 at 4th, 1 at 8th, 1 at 12th, 1 at 16th, and 2 at 20th plus a grand discovery. unless, of course, something has changed since the PDF came out that i dont know of.
I also checked while i was at it, true mutagen is +6 to all stats and +8 to NA, and I doubled checked and still see no pre-reqs
Well, I agree that the capstones shouldn't have pre-reqs, but my problem with it was the fact that all the mutagen increasing discoveries are made null with the capstone. So someone who focuses on mutagens and picks this gets gypped, where as someone who doesn't focus on mutagens gets more than the previous person, basically for free.
Honestly, the only capstones i really care about are fast healing, awakened intellect, and true mutagen. The others are handy, but I don't see them as useful as those three.
I just think that the capstone shouldnt outshine the specialization it goes for like it does, or it should work with someone who is specialized and make theirs better. (for example, something like "if you have greater and grand mutagen, also gain X")
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I have been using 2 simple changes that make Mutagens more powerful but does not change much. First change the type to a mutant bonus not enhancement. It make it more comparable to Rage.
Second Made Mutant types. Using and Modifying some sifter stuff.
Feats:
Lessor animal Form
Pre: Mutagen
1d6 bite or 2 1d4 claws
one ability from BS 1
Animal Mutation
pre: most have LAF
1d8 Bite or 2 1d6 claws
2 ability from BS 2
Elemental Mutation
Pre: LAF
Air
Air Mastery: -1 to attack
Most have dex as primary ability
whirlwind: DC=10+int+1/2 class level
Brute Mutation
Pre:class level 8
Dex must be Tri
2 Slam Attacks 1d6
+2 Str Size mod
-2 Dex Size mod
Large size
Reach 5
Improved natural attack
Improve Damage buy one size Increments .
My first post, so please don't kill me, people. Yet.
Taken from an analysis that I and some friends did, we come to the following consensus about the Mutagen:
- Change the type of bonus to Alchemy.
- Request a Will save (DC 20, perhaps?) to take any action other than to attack the nearest creature, while under effect. This is in addition to the Charisma damage (who should be in effect only under the Mutagen influence).
- Extend the progression bonus of +2 on Attribute / +1 Natural Armor for every 5 or 6 levels of the Alchemist automatically. Progression could also give a bonus to a secondary attribute equal to half the bonus to the primary attribute.
- The Discovery's should give extra effects to the Mutagen like increasing size, physical characteristics such as claws and wings, extension of effect time and so on. Not just increase the bonus to attributes and Nat Armor.
And sorry for my very bad english.
This is right in line with a Jekyll and Hyde kind of feel that I wish alchemist had.
In simplest of terms, the Mutagen ability could work just like the Summoners Eidolon ability with Evolution Points and everything. Alternatively the Mutagen power could work just like rage, that way they couldn't craft bombs or chug potions (form is unstable and chugging a potion would end the form prematurely, , , for example).
This is a highly flavorful class that fills a steampunk niche that Pathfinder needs.