eljava77's page

p.156 in Mystic Strikes states that you need an item "such as Handwraps of mighty fists." Should be Handwraps of Mighty Blows.

Why do dwarves have a charisma penalty again? Oh right, it's more complicated than just charisma = force of will, it's *also*likeability and gruffness. At least pay a hint of homage to the actual definition of charisma. ...

Well, I suppose they now have a story mechanic as to why dwarves have low charisma, it's not because they are gruff, distrusting grumpy people, it's because they are resistant to magic and as such they have naturally low resonance!

The problem isn't just healing though. How many wands of Bless are going to be picked up? Is Potion of Enlarge Person going to still be considered? Shield, Mage Armor, Barkskin; how many buffs are going to not be considered in item form now? Espically early when your options are going to be "heal or buff"

Exactly! there is no versatility, especially for the poor martials who have such a gear requirement to keep up with the casters.

Plus another resource to run out of is one more reason to shorten the adventuring day. Now it's going to be, when the fighter/barbarian/monk/paladin/rogue is out of resonance, "well, I'm done for the day, can't use my boots of flying anymore or get anything out of my bag of holding so I need to go rest." blech.

Or if someone locks it out, it is only for their use vs. everyone else?

My understanding is that it's just for you. You don't break the wand, it just ceases to work for you because your body has to much magic in it?

Resonance reminds me of the Shadowrun Essence mechanic that counted how many body mods you could have. Though that made more sense than this thing.

That same sword in PF1 would be 1/day. No option to use it two or three times if you want to.

Maybe, like the crown of blasting is 1x per day, but you can use it once, and also use your sword, and boots, armor, and a potion of comprehend languages,and a potion of see invisibility and a potion of darkvision etc. Which gives you a lot more versatility.

I see a lot of focus just on healing potions/ wands of clw, (which are usually the spam of choice true) but this resonance is also going to really limit how many of these "cool" magic items you can use. What good is a sword that shoots fire if you can only do it once or twice a day? Are you going to even bother with it when you have other items to equip that you can just invest and then not worry about all day?

Kain Gallant wrote:

Here's what I want to see in the 2nd Edition:

5 of your 6 items align closely with the design goals of the new edition.

So which one doesn't align with the design goals?

Finally got around to listening to the podcast section that covered resonance. Another thing to track daily YAY! (sarcasm) I know we don't know the whole picture yet, but it sounds terrible to me. I get they want to reduce magic items, but why link it to charisma, other than it's your typical dump stat, once again nerfing the fighters.

You could call him Gurgam the Sage, and have his heraldry be a big ol' clump of Sage. And hit people with sage when you give them "sage advice"

I play a good goblin who still offers praise to Lamashtu.....basically since she created the goblins she is their mother....and it's a good deed to honor your mother right?

Elves too thin and dwarves too thick
Half-orcs will just make you sick
Humans can be quite a treat
Roasted Gnome is hard to beat
But for something that is finger-licken
Halfling sure does taste like chicken

The rules for the cursed pick follow the same as the Cursed Sword (-2)

Currently running a game where a wizard was forced to pick up a pick and use it for a few rounds.
Turns out it was a Cursed Pick. As such he is now forced to use the pick in combat instead of another weapon. This could cause major havoc for his spell casting as I have several different interpretations.

1) As the cursed item forces him to employ the pick over any other weapon he cannot draw his bonded sword, and so cannot cast spells.
2) he CAN draw his bonded sword, as he is not in melee, but cannot cast spells because his other hand is holding a pick.
or
3) he can draw his bonded weapon and cast spells, because he is not in melee.

I could go a number of different ways on this. But want to see what other people think.

I'm just starting to read through the knot section, and it seems that even for a party of 5-6 characters, it's going to be quite difficult.
Do any of you who have already run it have any suggestions, or am I missing something?

In our game we love Reincarnate, especially since we have 1 character, who we refer to as Kenny. As in "oh my gawd they killed kenny!" (Extremely bad luck) Who started life as a human male, and has died multiple times and come back human,as a female,then as female gnome, and then a female half orc. It was hilarious when we went back to the druid after the gnome attempt and told the druid to "try harder, that one didn't work so well" (we now have a frequent reincarnate card, 4 reincarnates and the 5th one is free!)

and it's been alot of fun role playing wise for him too.

Personally when he came back as a gnome, we decided he could learn the racial benefits, like giant fighting etc, with enough in game training.

In the 3.5 magic item compendium (I think) there was a enchantment you could at least put on weapons that would let them resize to the wielder.

Since it was a straight GP cost, I'd let it be added to any item.

Besides...just imagine making a robe of the archmage, then having it shrink in the dryer.

One of the characters from Marvel comics is called Diablo, and he was a wacky alchemist character. Aside from sucking down potions to change his physical stats, which is well covered in the current rules, (except where he had precoated his mustache in potions and was able to lick the mustache as a last minute escape device) he also tossed around pellets to hurt/hinder his opponents.

So we've got Bombs....and they can do some things, like the madness affect etc, but what about bombs ore even call them extracts that mimic other spells...maybe something like Black Tentacles, Baleful Polymorph (or whatever it's called now), Hold Person, Daylight, Darkness, etc.

Thoughts?

The Alchemist is really quite awful....

he is combat ineffective...other than his bombs, which don't help you if your standing next to his target. Splash damage doesn't care whose side your on.

The mutegen is really quite sad. It does not allow the alchemist to be effective in melee. So even if you want to build a Jeckle/Hyde guy..it's not effective.

His spells are self only. Unless he uses 1 discovery to allow others to partake.

I wouldn't want one in my party.

Even with the combo, the Alchemist needs a ton of time to sit back and swill potions for a few rounds to get into combat.

And even then I feel like it takes away from the Jeckle Hyde motiff...I drink my Hyde mutagen...and then....turn into a dragon.

I was REALLY looking forward to the mutagens, the whole concept of this meek little character going all Hyde (or Hulk)on the bad guys seemed great.

But this? given that it only affects 1 stat, and nat armor it's kinda sad. I really wanted something that would let the Alchemist go toe to toe with something i.e. replace the Fighter or Barbarian...for a short amount of time only.

and currently it can't, even with bumping all Mutagens. So at level 12 you get a whopping +4 to Nat armor, and +4 to one ability and WEE! you just replaced a barkskin and a bears endurance potion...congrats. Yes it lasts a bit longer....but you still can't go do anything.

Ooo...claws...great....a bite attack...oo spiffy... great roleplaying in my opinion, but um...who are you planning on attacking...kobalds?

Meh.

I'd drop the tactics entirely. Given the class is based on Van Helsing, Solomon Kane, monster hunters etc, why should they be good at party tactics?

Or change them so it's all solo tactics based on monsters, a Dragon Tactic, Golem Tactic, Undead Tactic, etc.

I'd also give it Martial weapons to start.

What I don't get is that the oracle is required to have a curse, no other class requires such a negative (even if balanced with some benefit)

I could see for flavor having them as optional. But not required.

(and for the people saying being blind is not a that much of a hinderence try fighting a dragon doing strafing runs on you...or telling which way is East)

And if you really want blindsense, grab the blindfold from the 3.5 magic items compendium.

Personally I'd like to chime in on the curses, I just don't think they are very well planned out.

The negatives are way to harsh. I've played a character with limited sight before...and wow is it awful. You get killed by archers or mages really quickly without being able to tell where they are. You can't tell directions, etc.

I can't see any character wanting to take these, even if they made them optional. I like the flavor, but eh...not great implementation.

I realize everyone seems to be jumping on the Smite evil as the primary reason the paladin is more of a munkchin than entire lollypop guild.

And I tend to agree, seeing as how I started this whole discussion...Any attack that overcomes DR, adds an AC bonus to you, adds a bonus to attack that's probably much higher than the fighters weapon training, adds your level in damage (x2 if it happens to be one of 3 large sets of monsters and apprantly doubles with crits) and doesn't stop until the creature is dead irritates me beyond belief.

BUT I'm looking at the Paladin class as a WHOLE. Smite is Sick. add in spells that are Charisma based...(Hellooooo Wisdom dump stat!)
Add in the Mercies, which can get rid of just about every condition, toss in the immunities to fear, mind control,disease, add either a poke'horse, or a the weapons bond...(hmm I can either have a horsie...or add magic and abilites up to +6 to my weapon....) Channeling, GREAT saves, especially after adding in the CHA bonus. Good HP, Good AC, Good BAB.

Am I missing anything?
and how is this not sick?

Oh darn, I can only move 20...I can't keep up with the fighter...wah!
I have to act LAWFUL!...darn. there goes that great torture scene! WAH.
and...um...thats about it.

The pros to this class totally outweigh every other class out there. A PARTY of paladins would kill a dragon in 2.9 seconds.

Where are the developers? Can ANYONE tell me why they decided that the paladin NEEDED this much stuff? Every other class is fairly balanced, bard prob on the low scale, Monk at the high end, but with in reason....except for the paladin which is just awful.

And as DLCUPCAKE said, if my dm makes an antipaladin by simply changing the word Good to Evil, we are SCREWED.

Wow...and I thought they really wanted to make combat maneuvers EASIER to figure out than 3.5.

Krauser_Levyl wrote:

For instance, the GM may feel strongly disencouraged to use undead/evil dragon/evil outsider BBEGs for his campaign, simply because he doesn't want to see his greatest villains smashed in seconds by a party of 11th-level of higher boosted by the paladin's aura.

How sad, then that GMs will have to be a little more creative when it comes to BBEG. Because I feel that most of those used to date belonged to one of the THREE types of creature you mentioned.

So, maybe it was not such an unexpected consequence/oversight on Paizo's part ;-)

Yeah right, now we will have to have ton's of neutral characters to fight...

Evil Spawn orphanage and day care center, guarded with neutral security only ;P

For the on the go blackguard or succubus right? 8)

Cause I can argue both sides of a point for fun, I'll agree with the combat fragility this way. If you take a party of 5 all of the same class and send it up against a number of different types of threats, the results should be somewhat similar (assuming proper level to deal with the treat.) Say 5 fighters or wizards, monks, rangers, or rogues vs ...a giant, should produce a dead giant..5 bards would end up singing themselves a lovely funeral dirge.

Actually thinking this could be a fun class, depending how they implement the pet. If it's from a list of creature then meh. But I'm thinking more of being able to build a frankencreature type pet...Hm. maybe I'll duct tape on the wings from a manticore...and....
throw in a basilisk eye to give it a gaze attack!

Ouch, sounds like someone played a bard and got shut down hard. 8)

I'll agree with some of your points. Because yes, not matter how much diplomacy you use, it's all going to end in blood, or boredom for 80% of the party.

But I still think in a proper group the bard is a fun character.

What...you don't wanna play Pokemon?

I'd sign on as long as it was 1) Balanced and 2) Sufficiently different from magic, not just take the magic spells and call them "psionic"
(I do miss the old psychic combat system for 2nd edition. Darksun anyone?)

I read somewhere they intended to remove the CHA bonus to save, maybe pathfinder forgot to update the final modifications to pallys. I just hope they intend to make an errata.
Really, if pally stays the way it is now, I'll force the players pally to eat small evil babies to sustain the god like powers they have

Dropping the Cha bonus would have helped a bit. Still not enough in my opinion, but I think I'm in the minority.

Where would the paladin find the evil babies? Does your game have an evil orphanage? Cause that would be awesome.

(and you just gave me idea for using baby as the villian in my game thanks!)

I've always found the bard to be one of the classes that's more effective OUT of combat. It's especially effective in heavy roleplaying games.

In one game I run the Bard is the party leader.

I was hopeing they would have added some abilities that would help the noncombat experience....Bardic Diplomacy maybe? how bout Flattering Song?

St. George? Also, I believe the devil used to be symbolized by the dragon.

Everyone keeps saying St. George.....but he was made a saint for his martyrdom....less so because of any myth about slaying a dragon. and in none of the accounts does he use a smite evil 8) (though in some of the stories he does use the sign of the cross to protect himself)

And yes, the devil was occasionally symbolized by a dragon...however dragons in RPG's are generally considered to be magical type beasties, not paragons of evil.

I look at it this way. Demons/Devils are lower plane baddies, the exact opponent of the good gods, Undead are unnatural beings that want to kill you and convert you into undead and have always been opposed by positive energy. Dragons just want to kill you and loot your corpse...(kinda like an adventurer).

If you can smite dragons you should be able to hurt them with positive energy....

Just think, a paladin could use 2 sponges as weapons, and smite every time and still kill a dragon. 8)

We've already talked about the paladin picking up other characters and using them to smite.
I smite with the dwarf!

which is actually kinda funny.

I love the changes they made to the combat maneuvers.

I really love the skill system. What you mean I NEED to put more points into acrobatics since 15 tumble doesn't get me past everyone any more?

I love more protective armor...when it's the evil bad guys turn to hit me. Less so when I'm trying to hit them.

I love races having a net positive number for their ability modifiers

I love the art work

I love a book that is so heavy I'm going to be able to use it as an offensive weapon.

How to bring non-smitable creatures into play...

Summons.
Elementals.
Constructs.
Plants.
Magic Beasts.
Neutral mercenaries.
Illusions.
Range attackers.
Swarms.
Swarms of minions.

Yes, the BBEG is likely to be Evil with capital E, but that does not mean that she/he has to wade into melee against Paladin. Actually, most of BBEGs are able to exercise a little of battlefield control (that makes them BBEGs, after all) - why cannot they avoid melee guys?

BBEGs tactics:
- illusionary doubles,
- flying,
- invisibility/hide,
- always useful Dimension Door/Teleport (most of the outsider got access to some form of instantaneous transportation),
- difficult terrain / enhanced mobility,
- (dragon/bigger guys) Grab, Chomp Chomp, Swallow or Grab, Drown or Grab, Smash

Overall, the paladin abilities are extremely conditional (must be Evil Outsider to be fully operational, mere Evil just adds some oomph, melee range only). If a paladin opponent is capable of using any tactic more advanced than Hulk Smash, they are likely to be able to make Paladin work for the reward of closing in.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Again, please remember that all of this is spoken from experience, as we have been playtesting PFRPG rules for months - 12th-level PFRPG Barbarian and Paladin say "Hi".

Of course you are still just focusing on the smite. It's the combo of that plus everything else the paladin can do. I still say being able to jack up your weapon a number of times a day up to a +6 makes up for the fighters +5 weapon training. (yeah limited use 4x per day....for 20 min at level 20 is still enough for most encounters in 1 day)

Also sometimes the BBEG tactics you have stated only work if the end boss IS a magic user or Dragon. What if the end guy is a death knight?
Dead in 3 rounds. Heck lets just say it's an evil general....so your ONLY doing +20 damage....(plus whatever other pluses you have) They are still going to spend the entire battle RUNNING from the paladin.

A Council of Thieves game should be starting up in October, where I will be playing a Pathfinder paladin. Hopefully then I'll be able to offer my take on how paladins are now, with gameplay experience to support my opinions.

Currently, I'm unconvinced on the broken/unbroken possibilities of smite evil, but I'm already considering a change to aura of justice. Maybe something like:

Aura of Justice (Su) At 11th level, when a paladin activates smite evil, they may choose to grant the same bonuses against their target to any number of allies within 10 feet. If they target even one ally with this effect, the duration of the smite becomes rounds equal to 1/2 paladin level or until the target of the smite is killed, whichever occurs first. The paladin must expend one additional use of smite evil for each ally they wish to affect with this ability. The bonuses granted to the paladin's allies are immediately revoked if the paladin is knocked unconscious, killed, or forced to quit the battlefield.

I think the extra power offered by the smite AND all of the other powers make it drastically overpowered. I mean really, just the weapons bond give him a +6 weapon by level 20. which is much more than the weapons training of the fighter. The fighter and Barbarian have DR 5 at level 20, the paladin is 10/evil which is almost balanced.

And yes I realize that the paladins are restricted by the alignment...oh no..I have to be lawful good! But no one ever says when playing a barbarian...oh no I have to be chaotic! (I saw this argument somewhere else on the boards, can't remember where)

On the whole I think I misnamed the overall post...The fighters and barbarians are pretty balanced with each other...I just think the paladin is waaaay overpowered.

I hope my group sticks with the beta paladin. I think it was much more balanced.

Personally, I'm glad that Devastating Blow is gone; it gave a large advantage to users of oddball weapons like picks and scythes which I didn't particularly care for. Although I could have lived with it if it just gave triple damage (including bonuses) instead of a critical per se.

It's a little disappointing that Overhand Chop and Backswing are gone, but I agree that:
(a) two-handed fighters get enough benefits already, and
(b) ideally (IMO) feats should add more options, not just more damage.

Devastating blow doesn't bother me that much. But I just miss that there were specific feats just for 2 hand weapon users. Shield users get something, 2 weapon users get feats, archers get various feats, why not for 2 handers?

I also don't agree that 2 hand fighters get more benefits than other types of fighters. The increased damage is more than offset by either their reduced AC since they can't have a shield, or their damage increase is offset by the extra attacks offered by 2 weapon users.

The problem with fighter feats is that in order to keep up with other classes in damage potential the feats have to offer some kind of increased damage either through extra attacks, or straight up increased damage.

angelroble wrote:

[So if that fighter level 6 (and lets say 20 str), was dealing while power attacking and a halberd:

1d10 + 5 (str)*2 + 10 (powatt) = 1d10 + 20 = 25.5 avg, but had -5 to attack
Now, if you change OC with VS, he is dealing:
2d10 + 5 (str) + 6 (powatt) = 2d10 + 11 = 22 avg, but has a only -2 to attack

Sorry I failed my Knowlegde (Math) check:

While using Overhand Chop and Power attack, the Beta fighter deals:
1d10 + 5 (str)*2 + 10 (powatt) = 1d10 + 20 = 25.5 avg, at -5 to attack

While using Vital Strike and Power attack, the PF fighter deals:
2d10 + 5 (str)*1.5 + 6 (powatt) = 2d10 + 13 = 24 avg, at -2 to attack

There, almost the same damage, much better attack bonus: -1.5 vs +3

I think issue comes in with Backswing, which let you keep your second/third/etc attacks. And that power attack in Beta didn't increase. (barring changes in strength)

So your fighter in Beta had 1 attack at 1d10 +20 at -5, and then a second attack at 1d10 + 17 at -5.

While Vital strike your stuck at 2d10 +13 at the -2.

Even maxing up to greater Vital Strike you are at 4x the damage. (at the cost of another feat by the way) But sticking with Backswing the fighter was having 4 attacks.
so a 16th level fighter
was still 1d10 + 5 (str)*2 + 10 at -5 and then 3 more attacks at 1d10 + 17 at -5 (granted your next 3 attacks are less likely to hit) Not sure of the probabilty #'s but lets say only 1 other attack hits.
and you'd be at 25 + 22 = 47.

But the Greater Vital strike guy is
4d10 + 5 (str)*2 + 15 power attack at -5. so about 45

So if only 1 extra attack hits your about the same, with the same negative. However if even 1 more attack hits, then the old methods were drastically better. And your down an extra feat.

eljava77 wrote:

So making up for another company's error is the way to go? I wasn't comparing 3.5 to 3.75....All of the classes are better than they were. I was doing a comparison BETWEEN the classes

Stating that the paladin was boosted is comparing it to 3.5, because that's the pre-boosted paladin's existence. You're comparing Pathfinder smite to 3.5 smite. Just by talking about improvements, you're comparing 3.5 to Pathfinder.

No, I was comparing Beta to ...Book?
We've been running beta for the last few months....so THATS what I was comparing.

And you weren't comparing the classes. You were stating that two of them got shafted and the paladin got shiny new toys. That's an opinion, not a comparison.

Fair enuff..though I'd maintain I was comparing beta to the new system.

Yes, paladins didn't lose anything. You know why? Because the 3.5 paladin SUCKED. It was, at best, a 4-level dip class that you took on your way to something better. Pathfinder paladin is actually worth playing.

So making up for another company's error is the way to go? I wasn't comparing 3.5 to 3.75....All of the classes are better than they were. I was doing a comparison BETWEEN the classes

Because when you have an evil dragon around that needs killing, you call in the knight in shining armor.

Yeah...but...paladins aren't what I would consider a knight. They are holy in nature....so I can see the undead...and the demons...but when were religions anti-dragon?

The rage powers are neat, though.

Some of them...raging swim?

Well, the reason heavy armor fighters dumped Dex before was that they didn't have any use for it. Now they do, so feel free to start with a decent Dex and possibly get your physical buff belt to boost Dex as well.

well, one more stat to increase...so we are left with even dumber less charismatic fighters.

How about the fact that in 3.5 after 4-5th level, you got nothing in the paladin class? That you were better off going fighter for the bonus feats?

Yes, the fighter did not get as much of a boost as many of us think it should have, but the paladin needed it about as much.

Oh I agree with that statment....(to some extent...they did get spells which make up a bit) and I thought the beta paladin was fine.

Well, there's tons of melee feats that are nice now: Stand Still, Lunge, the Vital Strike chain, Step Up, the Critical Focus chain, Disruptive, Spellbreaker. The more good feats that exist, the better off the fighter is since that's their main class feature.

Also, fighters still get the attack and damage bonus for weapon training.

The fighter bonus feats aren't the equalizer they once were.

The problem is that since everyone gets tons of feats...they don't matter as much...there aren't that many feats that a paladin can't grab the decent feats.

Also I don't really like the critical feats...I like feats that always are working. not 1 chance in 10 with a 19-20 crit range weapon. (yeah you can double it to 17 with improved crit...or keen) but they aren't that great.

and yeah. weapon training is nice...at 20 + 5/+5 is cool...and you can't be disarmed....
of course the paladin is smiting for +20 points of damage or +40 if its an evil outsider/undead/dragon....and ignoring the damage reduction...
for the entire combat, and getting an ac bonus.

So I'm looking at the paladins....and going Oh my GAWD...
smite is soooo much stronger now...it lasts till the target is dead?
you get an AC bonus against the target?! 2x level vs undead, evil outsiders or evil dragons? (I still don't get the evil dragon part....undead and outsiders at least make sense, why not evil woodchucks too?)
They get better saves...fort AND will
and haven't lost...anything.
They still have the weapons bond, the mercies, the spells etc.
I don't get it.

Barbarians, poor bstrds They can now rage for 4 rounds + their con MODIFIER.
with 2 more rounds per level.
ooooo
so at 10th level you get....29 rounds....
maybe 2 good combats. (our combats last awhile....maybe it's just us)
but still some of those rage powers are AWFUL raging climb? raging swim?
oooo that darn river makes me SO MAD!!!
who is gonna take these things? LAME.

Ya know....I really loved the beta fighters, they got a ton of feats,
and the armor bonuses were nice, the weapon training was cool.
But now that I've seen the book, hey really nerfed armor training by getting rid of the armor bonus, great we can keep the dex bonus increase (cause heavy armor fighters have TONS of dex)...and we get to move at full speed....except for dwarves who could do it anyway

ooo they added a number of feats for higher level fighters...that all seem to chain off critical hits. Which is great if you have a build for that...
but if your main weapon is a great ax, your hosed.

and they took away my favorite feats...overhand chop/backswing etc.

Is it me? am I missing something?

In PFS, can my Level 1 Druid with the Arctic Domain choose Channel Smite as their 1st level feat?

The Arctic Domain's Call Cold ability has a clause to prevent Druids from using similar feats, but I have no intention of actually using Channel Smite. I just need it to qualify for Guided Hand.

Here is the relevant text:

Arctic Domain

Call Cold (Su): You can channel energy (as a cleric of your druid level) a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, but only to heal creatures with the cold subtype or to command them (similar to using the Command Undead feat against undead). You can take other feats that add to this ability, such as Extra Channel and Improved Channel, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel. The DC to save against this ability is equal to 10 + 1/2 your druid level + your Charisma modifier.

Channel Smite

Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature.

Benefit: Before you make a melee attack roll, you can choose to spend one use of your channel energy ability as a swift action. If you channel positive energy and you hit an undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel positive energy ability. If you channel negative energy and you hit a living creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel negative energy ability. Your target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If your attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect.

Guided Hand

Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, Channel Smite, proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon.

Benefit: With your deity’s favored weapon, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier on attack rolls.