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MY FLGS kicked our group out last week because they needed the tables for Magic tourneys. They haven't had this many people show up in years.
Our FLGS never really lost much momentum when it came to MtG; for every player lost, a new one seemed ready to fill their shoes. Their case of MtG cards was always being leaned over, even moreso than the D&D miniatures case or the dice bins.
Its a shame to hear that Rob is gone, but I am unfamiliar with the work of the other two. I hope they all do well, though.
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I can't wait until 5e rolls around. Bill Slavicsek is gonna have a lot to answer for it they try to promote another electronic product. All he did during the 4e launch panels was keep promising the gaming board software wouldn't turn into another 3rd edition's E-Tools. Well, each year they lay off more and more people and grow quieter and quieter on all DDI fronts.
I remember those events just as you've described them SirUrza. Good point.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Is Yo Gabba Gabba on the take? I just watched a cartoon with my daughter about some grumpy wizards who lived in a tower on the seashore and don't want anyone to have fun. Is that a secret message that Christian Jacobs and Scott Schultz are secretly anti-4E fanboys, or am I reading to much into it?
As much as a stoner fantasy as that show is, I wouldn't read too much into it. Of course, when the kids start hating the 4e, you'll know why...
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I can't wait until 5e rolls around. Bill Slavicsek is gonna have a lot to answer for it they try to promote another electronic product. All he did during the 4e launch panels was keep promising the gaming board software wouldn't turn into another 3rd edition's E-Tools. Well, each year they lay off more and more people and grow quieter and quieter on all DDI fronts.I remember those events just as you've described them SirUrza. Good point.
The sad part is, if it worked, I'd actually play 4e.. online. Some how I have a feeling the offline part works, it's the online they're having trouble with.. which is a shame.
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The sad part is, if it worked, I'd actually play 4e.. online. Some how I have a feeling the offline part works, it's the online they're having trouble with.. which is a shame.I can't wait until 5e rolls around. Bill Slavicsek is gonna have a lot to answer for it they try to promote another electronic product. All he did during the 4e launch panels was keep promising the gaming board software wouldn't turn into another 3rd edition's E-Tools. Well, each year they lay off more and more people and grow quieter and quieter on all DDI fronts.I remember those events just as you've described them SirUrza. Good point.
Funny, an "online" RPG would be the final straw for me for D&D. I think that DDI is completely fine as is and well worth the money. Dragon, Dungeon, character gen, compendium, monster stuff. I think people are whipping WotC over not having the silliest idea since opening windows in a submarine, i.e. a virtual table, without looking at what they already have. If you're going to have a virtual table, why not have a virtual DM - hang on, I think we call that World of Warcraft or D&D Online.
So yes the "offline" parts, meaning the pen & paper game of D&D, works a treat. 4e has drawn back 3 players from my area that 3.5e scared off. Well the optimiser from hell scared off due to their PC's being redundant...
This won't be the first time marketing people run with the ball a little too far and it won't be the last. Lucky WotC defined what was really important and got those bits working. In fact can't remember ANY character generator being as good as the 4e one.
S.
If you're going to have a virtual table, why not have a virtual DM
Are you really unable to see why one might want a virtual tabletop with a real DM using it? There are very real, very good reasons for wanting a way to get as authentic a D&D experience as possible even when the players can't sit down around the same table. Statements like the above are simply dismissive of those reasons, and I have a hard time understanding why someone would make them.
A virtual tabletop isn't something I'd get a whole lot of use out of, personally, but I know there are loads of people out there who currently use them, and loads more who would use them if WotC released one.
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If you're going to have a virtual table, why not have a virtual DMAre you really unable to see why one might want a virtual tabletop with a real DM using it? There are very real, very good reasons for wanting a way to get as authentic a D&D experience as possible even when the players can't sit down around the same table. Statements like the above are simply dismissive of those reasons, and I have a hard time understanding why someone would make them.
A virtual tabletop isn't something I'd get a whole lot of use out of, personally, but I know there are loads of people out there who currently use them, and loads more who would use them if WotC released one.
Add in a "virtual spill coke over your books" or "virtual lose your dice down the back of the couch" button and I'll reconsider my ill thought out yet stubborn position.
See I can be swayed by a sound argument...
:)
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Are you really unable to see why one might want a virtual tabletop with a real DM using it? There are very real, very good reasons for wanting a way to get as authentic a D&D experience as possible even when the players can't sit down around the same table. Statements like the above are simply dismissive of those reasons, and I have a hard time understanding why someone would make them.
A virtual tabletop isn't something I'd get a whole lot of use out of, personally, but I know there are loads of people out there who currently use them, and loads more who would use them if WotC released one.
At the cataclysmic risk of agreeing with Scott (gasp!), if the DDI virtual tabletop ever became a real thing, it could entice me into playing/running 4E, since so many of my gaming friends are geographically remote (my SCA household -slash- City of Heroes Supergroup).
At the cataclysmic risk of agreeing with Scott (gasp!), if the DDI virtual tabletop ever became a real thing, it could entice me into playing/running 4E, since so many of my gaming friends are geographically remote (my SCA household -slash- City of Heroes Supergroup).Are you really unable to see why one might want a virtual tabletop with a real DM using it? There are very real, very good reasons for wanting a way to get as authentic a D&D experience as possible even when the players can't sit down around the same table. Statements like the above are simply dismissive of those reasons, and I have a hard time understanding why someone would make them.
A virtual tabletop isn't something I'd get a whole lot of use out of, personally, but I know there are loads of people out there who currently use them, and loads more who would use them if WotC released one.
I was running for about a year a game with people in DC, PA and NY. I have a vent server, we found a dice server, and a virutal table program and ran with it. There are some out there for 3.5 and Castles and Crusades/1st ed at least that I know of. Not sure about 4e. I even have a website where I keep records of the game with week by week postings about what happened the previous week for those who could not make it, listing of known NPCs, cities, and geographical data the players should have access to and other little bits and pieces.
We had a good time finished one game and most of Paizo's first AP too. My middle earth 4e is actually looking to be done the same way and I will find a way to have a virtual table top either buying out from a 3rd party or making our own (which frankly isn't impossible). Sure it might not be perfect but it will do what we need.
((City of Heroes....boy that takes me back. Been years since I played but I did have some fun with that game. Too bad it got a case of ED...))
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I was running for about a year a game with people in DC, PA and NY. I have a vent server, we found a dice server, and a virutal table program and ran with it. There are some out there for 3.5 and Castles and Crusades/1st ed at least that I know of. Not sure about 4e. I even have a website where I keep records of the game with week by week postings about what happened the previous week for those who could not make it, listing of known NPCs, cities, and geographical data the players should have access to and other little bits and pieces.
We had a good time finished one game and most of Paizo's first AP too. My middle earth 4e is actually looking to be done the same way and I will find a way to have a virtual table top either buying out from a 3rd party or making our own (which frankly isn't impossible). Sure it might not be perfect but it will do what we need.
Can you supply a link for the VTT?
((City of Heroes....boy that takes me back. Been years since I played but I did have some fun with that game. Too bad it got a case of ED...))
<threadjack>
Enhancement Diversification was more of a communications issue at the time -- they rolled it out after promising no more system-wide power nerfs. In any event, with the rollout of Invention Origin (IO) enhancement sets, it's a complete non-issue now -- the power builds are orange and purple IO sets with set bonuses.
</threadjack>
Can you supply a link for the VTT?I was running for about a year a game with people in DC, PA and NY. I have a vent server, we found a dice server, and a virutal table program and ran with it. There are some out there for 3.5 and Castles and Crusades/1st ed at least that I know of. Not sure about 4e. I even have a website where I keep records of the game with week by week postings about what happened the previous week for those who could not make it, listing of known NPCs, cities, and geographical data the players should have access to and other little bits and pieces.
We had a good time finished one game and most of Paizo's first AP too. My middle earth 4e is actually looking to be done the same way and I will find a way to have a virtual table top either buying out from a 3rd party or making our own (which frankly isn't impossible). Sure it might not be perfect but it will do what we need.
I will have to get home to do that, tonight I will look for it. We bought software about a year and a half ago, and it work well enough with some work.
As for CoH, well it wasn't a communications issue, it was a lie. Creating a method to overcome ED doesn't remove the lie. I don't like dealing with dishonest companies and so I left that game. Shame it was a decent game but I don't take well to bold face lying so left over that.
Are you really unable to see why one might want a virtual tabletop with a real DM using it? There are very real, very good reasons for wanting a way to get as authentic a D&D experience as possible even when the players can't sit down around the same table. Statements like the above are simply dismissive of those reasons, and I have a hard time understanding why someone would make them.A virtual tabletop isn't something I'd get a whole lot of use out of, personally, but I know there are loads of people out there who currently use them, and loads more who would use them if WotC released one.
I still have doubts that there is enough of a market to make this fly. I'd be pretty surprised if the demographics that were interested in this enough to pay for it added up to 10% of total 4E players. Especially since it would have to be constant. Old lapsed users would have to be replaced by new users. Even if its a full 10% that means 90% don't want to pay more for this product. So now we have that 10% group that needs to cover the entire cost of this venture and pay for the endless upgrades to it as the rules are changed and improved....just how much is this group willing to pay a month? Because I don't think we are talking trivial sums to make this profitable. Furthermore the product is in direct competition with much less technologically advanced but far cheaper (free or close to it) alternate products.
This gets compared to a MMO a lot but its not the same sort of program at all. Its essentially a program for people without a group (or who also want a remote group on top of the Thursday night gang). Thing is this product does not really reduce prep time for the DM (in fact it probably adds to it) and there is still that great bane of adults everywhere - the need to get everyone together at a specific time. However it does eliminate the core dynamic of any RPG gathering...which is fundamentally a social event. Hence it really has none of the strengths of a MMO where you can just pop in whenever you can find some spare time in front of the computer. Its ultimately a product that combines some of the weak points of a MMO game with some of the weak points of a real life face to face game and which would probably cost a fairly significant chunk of change for subscribers to boot. The product is doable but it strikes me as a real gamble.
Especially considering that there must be a dozen tools they could add to the DDI along the lines of their monster builder for example a trap builder, a good program for mapping out skill challenges, a campaign tracker with well implemented links to the DDI, An adventure designer etc. All of these products would probably be of use to at least 75% of D&D groups (I use groups because many tools are of interest either only to players or only to DMs) that currently subscribe to the DDI and at least some of them would probably be of value to 90% of all such groups. Done well (and the current tools show us how it ought to be done) these tools tie people ever further into their subscription model. The DM simply can't imagine how he ever managed to play rpgs at all without the tools. Considering that such tools are technically a lot less difficult to make then a full fledged online table and one can easily see why the online table just does not make any real sense to produce - there is a better and cheaper alternative that likely makes more money for WotC. The online table is the kind of product thats best made after all of these tools are created both due to bang for the buck reasons and also because its probably much easier to make the online table when all the tools have been created to serve as the back end of the program. DMs creating their adventure for the online table will still want the ability to modify monsters and will want to embed skill challenges into their online adventure so such programs need to exist in any case.
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I still have doubts that there is enough of a market to make this fly. I'd be pretty surprised if the demographics that were interested in this enough to pay for it added up to 10% of total 4E players.
Putting numbers to it aside, I agree with this. The same argument as to why not make a Mac or Linux port of the current software suite can be used. I say great if you can do ALL, but I too would rather see the "tools" side expanded first.
S.
Agreed. I'm sure WotC has taken this into consideration, though. I don't think we're going to see a VTT for a while. Other tools that they feel more people will find useful will be released first.
Director of Brand Strategy
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As bad as the economy is doing there are some industries making out well, we are currently looking to hire nearly 1200 people in the NY/NJ area in the first 6 months alone. So it isn't all doom and gloom.
I live in NY and need a job. What exactly will you be hiring these 1200 people to do and where do I send a resume?
As bad as the economy is doing there are some industries making out well, we are currently looking to hire nearly 1200 people in the NY/NJ area in the first 6 months alone. So it isn't all doom and gloom.I live in NY and need a job. What exactly will you be hiring these 1200 people to do and where do I send a resume?
((Sorry if this bothers anyone but he asked and if he needs a job I just want to let him know how to get one. ))
We have a very unique organization, think of us as a reverse chain and that helps a little. Basically a bunch of little guys grouped together to purchase product and compete with the larger chains. So far it is working pretty well, been working pretty well now for 50 years so it aint exactly a new company. I think we are the largest such company in the US but I am not sure.
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Want to play virtual D&D then play NWN persistant worlds. I could play some very engaging sessions with lots of people. I was both a player and a DM. We build the worlds, the quests, everything that was on the server. No, it wasn't WoW or DDO like. It was PnP roleplaying without the nonsense you see in most MMO's. That is my virtual tabletop.
Main Point: Condolences to those who got axed, it is a pain anytime of the year.
MTG Point: They did an amazing marketing job this year by putting out a very good, cheap Xbox360 magic game that totally hooked me back in right as they launched a rev of the basic game and I have bought a lot of cards since. I am SURE I am not the only one. Dunno how many *bleep*-tastic MTG games I have tried but the finally got one close to right. if it supported deck-building I'd be in heaven but I suppose that would threaten the cash cow of magic online.
VTT Point: my regular group has one guy in DC and another in ST. Lois with the rest in Wisconsin. We just use webcams pointing at our playgrid. Not as fun as all being there but if I had to chose from this and doing it all virtual, I would go with the cams since it is much more like a 'normal' dnd game than playing video games together.
[off-topic]
It's seeing the first real revival at my university in years. People are actually holding tournaments, a student club has started, and wild games of free magic are being played during spare time.And to be honest I have seen way too many business's go under this last 12 months due to the recession so I hope WOTC do continue.I hear Magic: the Gathering is doing *very* well this year.The exchange rates (and possibly other factors) have hammered M:tG over here in the UK. Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block boosters were retailing for approximately £2. Alara block boosters hit in the region of £3.50... [/off-topic]
The other factors are that economics, as the rest of the world understands it, don't apply on that island. They use a whole different system over there.
For example - exchange rate. The dollar is weak compared to the pound. End result - its dirt cheap for people with pounds to buy things priced in American Peso's...except in Britain where it somehow becomes more expensive.
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For example - exchange rate. The dollar is weak compared to the pound. End result - its dirt cheap for people with pounds to buy things priced in American Peso's...except in Britain where it somehow becomes more expensive.
I'm all for the US dollar taking it's nose dive. It's now cheaper for me in New Zealand to buy from Amazon in the US my RPG books than from my local store. Of course this will backfire if the US economy strengthens and my local store has gone under because no one shops there... Hmmmm, long term planning - ah screw it short term benefit. Here's praying for a slow US recovery*!
;)
*Actually I wish for a fast recovery for the poor people in the middle and at the bottom and a slow to non-existent recovery for the greedy bastards at the top that caused this in the first place.
((Sorry if this bothers anyone but he asked and if he needs a job I just want to let him know how to get one. ))
I don't think any apology is needed. You are helping out a fellow gamer and forum participant in a bad economy. I think it is great that you did that. and who knows, there may be more people on the forum in the NY/NJ area in a similar position.
As bad as the economy is doing there are some industries making out well, we are currently looking to hire nearly 1200 people in the NY/NJ area in the first 6 months alone. So it isn't all doom and gloom.I live in NY and need a job. What exactly will you be hiring these 1200 people to do and where do I send a resume?** spoiler omitted **
We have a very unique organization, think of us as a reverse chain and that helps a little. Basically a bunch of little guys grouped together to purchase product and compete with the larger chains. So far it is working pretty well, been working pretty well now for 50 years so it aint exactly a new company. I think we are the largest such company in the US but I am not sure.
Kind of a co-operative type model?
Things like that always make me happy. Up with the little guy, down with the big guy. (As long as the little guy doesn't become a big guy, we don't need anymore Wal-Marts.)
I came into this conversation very late for one simple reason: I quit coming to these boards and buying WotC books two weeks after 4E came out. I really only came here today in hopes of seeing something that might say 4E was a colossal failure and a much improved and far more traditional 5E was on the horizon. I know that sounds horrible, and I give props to the 4E designers for all their effort, but I'm sorry... they failed to deliver a game that would keep me as a paying customer.
I'm a long-time gamer. Started in 1987 with 1E, though 2E was already putting out books by then. I shifted into 2E and began to gather everything I could from D&D. By the time 3E came out, I literally had hundreds of Dragon magazines, dozens of Dungeon magazines, enough D&D books/modules/materials to fill a 4 level bookshelf, and a two drawer filing cabinet full of home-brewed materials. 3E came out and I gave it a shot. Different, but I grew to enjoy it immensely! I even loved the changes to 3.5! When I heard about 4E and read the initial ideas behind it, I was extremely excited. I rushed out the day the core books arrived at my FLGS to get them and began reading immediately. I was decently impressed with the presentation, the pictures, and even the initial changes on the first few pages. Then I get to something that made me shut the book and not pick it up again for a few hours: spells.
The more I read, the more the rules were disappointing me. I'm a World of Warcraft fan, but I wanna play it on my PC, not at table-top! Despite my initial anger, I showed it to my group I've been DMing for 7 years now and they were initially excited, too. We all made characters and by the time we were done, I was getting disgusted looks from every single one of them. We played a game anyway, just to give it a chance. Maybe in play it made more sense than from the outside looking in.
I've never played a gaming system that irritated and disappointed me more, and I own a HUGE library of other RPGs.
4E has done something no other D&D product ever has: made me stop buying their products. Since the day I returned my books to the store, I've never bought another product from Wizards of the Coast. When 3.5 and 3E was rampant, I was buying two hardback books a month, any novels coming out or all settings, and buying character sheet bundles like they were going out of print. I easily dropped $100+ a month on D&D alone. I rarely ever bought any other gaming systems new. I'd get them down the road at one of the half-priced stores. D&D was the ONLY system I would pay full price to get. The only one.
I'll give 5E a shot if/when it comes out, but until then WotC has lost a long-time, faithful customer. I'm sorry to see it happen. For those who enjoy 4E, kudos and more power to you! I'm truly glad you do. I don't want to see WotC go bankrupt or any of their staff face lay-offs. I just lost my job today (the day after Christmas) to a lay-off, so I know how they must feel. It stinks. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But for now, given the present state of the company's direction, I won't be a part of it beyond checking the boards here for news of a new version of the game emerging.
Farewell.
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While I disagree with a lot of what you said about 4E Jeremy I understand and respect it. I said I never would play 3.5 again after I bought 4E but I bought Pathfinder instead. I do not thing ownong one should exclude the other. I recommend buying Pathfinder only if yiou dislike 3.5. Otherwise if 3.5 is good enough for you stick with that. I like Pathfinder but to be honest if I still had my 3.5 books I would not have bought it. While it is a fun game it does not fix many of the problems I have with 3.5.
I came into this conversation very late for one simple reason: I quit coming to these boards and buying WotC books two weeks after 4E came out. I really only came here today in hopes of seeing something that might say 4E was a colossal failure and a much improved and far more traditional 5E was on the horizon. I know that sounds horrible, and I give props to the 4E designers for all their effort, but I'm sorry... they failed to deliver a game that would keep me as a paying customer.
Sorry to disappoint you. All signs point to 4e being quite successful. Tastes in tabletop gaming have moved on without you.
That said, your post is almost completely off-topic. It's like you found the most popular current thread on the 4e sub-forum and decided to make it home to your personal rant against the game (and then attempted to justify its presence with a few words about lay-offs at the end). I particularly loved the token "WoW-on-paper" line.
I've never played a gaming system that irritated and disappointed me more...
You're not alone. :)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Scott,
I draw comfort in the knowledge that, if I'm ever lost in the wilderness of western Nebraska, far from cell-phone coverage, standing next to my car with a flat tire, looking in through the window at the styrofoam box containing a heart on ice, desperately needed to save a child's life if only I could get it to the Denver hospital in time...
...I would only have to speak aloud, something like "4th Edition really isn't even D&D anymore, and the Skill Challenge mechanics are nonsense." ...
...and suddenly you would pop up, just to berate me, and I could get you to help me fix my car and get me back on the road.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Sorry to disappoint you. .... Tastes in tabletop gaming have moved on without you.
This is not precisely true, and you know it, Scott.
Dungeons & Dragons has moved on without him, but Pathfinder (and other games) offer options that can allow him to continue playing the type of game he prefers.
I appreciate your defense of 4e, and I know you were responding to a riled-up post that reeked of advocacy, but "responding in kind" is no improvement over what you appear to be condemning.
Let's lay off the advocacy on all sides of this debate, please.
There are games for everyone to play. No need to keep up this pointless bickering. Play what you want to play without denigrating the tastes of others, please.
I don't mean to single Scott out with this, his post was just a convenient vector from which to deliver my message of peace and understanding to all of humankind.
Hi Erik,
You're a name I recognize from your time as editor of Dragon Magazine. Glad to see you're still around the D&D in one fashion or another. I always enjoyed your editorials.
I apologize for my post "reeking of advocacy" as well as hijacking this thread. Scott was right, though. I did find a thread that was recent and posted what I wanted on there. I didn't want to spend hours sorting through the other threads just to find one relevant. Call it laziness, if you will, but it was hundreds upon hundreds of posts and I felt it much simpler to just get on this one. He was also right about tabletop leaving me behind, but only in regards to D&D. I still play other gaming systems that are putting out new materials monthly; it just seems an old friend and I have parted company.
I have tried Pathfinder and I do enjoy it. I feel it's a fantastic update to the 3.5 system and has a slew of fixes that tweaked some of the more problematic areas. I own a huge amount of 3.0 and 3.5 books still and will devote my D&D playing to those and Pathfinder for now. I do support that product line and throw my full weight behind it. I'm glad there are people out there that like and enjoy 4E, but I won't be one of them.
Erik, one thing I am confused on is you're asking of us to lay off the advocacy. I'm not an expert on these boards by far, having this be my 2nd post here ever, but I thought that was precisely the point of message boards: to express your viewpoints. I wasn't name-calling anyone or starting a flame war of any kind. I was expressing my viewpoint on a system I don't care to play. I wasn't being rude and never once used unprofessional language at any time. I thought I laid out the reasons behind my feelings plainly and even added that I wasn't making this argument lightly having played the game before making any conclusions. To ask us NOT to express our opinions, be it good or bad, sounds like an approach at censorship to me. The exact purpose of a debate is to express opinions of all sides, not just the ones that are popular. I'm not on some crusade to convert all 4E players to another game. I have friends that like and play it. I just turn down invitations to their games and they to mine. To each his/her own. I was mainly wondering how many people felt like I did, hence the post. I'm trying to get a feel for the future of D&D. I'd like to know if I should prepare to stick with 3.5 and Pathfinder for the long haul or keep a watchful eye for a new system on the horizon. After all, there were 3 rules revisions to the game in less than 7 years (3.0, 3.5, then 4.0 - 4 if you count Pathfinder as 3.75).
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Jeremy since your new you wasn't around for the 4e vs 3e war. We have for the most part moved on from it and most of us want that debate to stay dead and buried.
So yes paizo wants to hear what you think, but I think Erik's point is tell them what you like or dislike about what they do and leave the comments about 4e out. Since they don't make 4e or support it, so our opinions here on the board for or against 4e is a moot point to paizo and doesn't help them become a better company.
Not to speak for Erik or anything just trying to be helpful.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Scott,
I draw comfort in the knowledge that, if I'm ever lost in the wilderness of western Nebraska, far from cell-phone coverage, standing next to my car with a flat tire, looking in through the window at the styrofoam box containing a heart on ice, desperately needed to save a child's life if only I could get it to the Denver hospital in time...
...I would only have to speak aloud, something like "4th Edition really isn't even D&D anymore, and the Skill Challenge mechanics are nonsense." ...
...and suddenly you would pop up, just to berate me, and I could get you to help me fix my car and get me back on the road.
You win the Internet. This just might be my favoritest post ever.
I see. I actually didn't realize this was the Paizo board until after my initial post was up. I was on the WotC site and clicking links to express my opinions there when it redirected me here. I assumed (incorrectly it seems) that they were just using this site for their forums. Sorry for the confusion.
For the record, though, I do enjoy Pathfinder and have bought many of the products for it Paizo offers. I frequently use the Deck of Critical Hits and can't wait to buy the other decks available now. My arguments were not directed at Erik or any of the Paizo crew, rather my dislike of WotC's direction of the game I've loved for more than two decades.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Jeremy,
Welcome to the Paizo forums! I'm very pleased to see you found your way here!
As others have posted, the edition wars triggered by 4th edition were EXTREMELY bloody. All of the "cons" against 4e are pretty well covered here and elsewhere at this point, and in addition to being repetitive, they often trigger knee-jerk responses by posters who wish to offset criticism with their own escalation.
It gets ugly, but most of all, it just gets boring.
Now that Pathfinder exists, there is a supported game for those of us 'left behind" by tabletop gaming (snort) and for those blazing exciting, innovative new trails with their game of choice.
I didn't mean to call you out specifically (or Scott, for that matter), but we have all been round and round on this issue so many times that it just gets old after a while.
You're free to post whatever you'd like on these messageboards, so long as you maintain a friendly attitude and don't try to stir up trouble for the sake of it.
I suggest leaving alone the boards for a game that you don't like and instead concentrating on something you do enjoy playing. You're pretty well on record about 4e at this point, so there's no real need to belabor the point.
All it's going to do is trigger retaliatory posts from the folks who do like fourth edition, and sooner or later we're all in a big fight.
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Erik, one thing I am confused on is you're asking of us to lay off the advocacy. I'm not an expert on these boards by far, having this be my 2nd post here ever, but I thought that was precisely the point of message boards: to express your viewpoints. I wasn't name-calling anyone or starting a flame war of any kind. I was expressing my viewpoint on a system I don't care to play. I wasn't being rude and never once used unprofessional language at any time. I thought I laid out the reasons behind my feelings plainly and even added that I wasn't making this argument lightly having played the game before making any conclusions. To ask us NOT to express our opinions, be it good or bad, sounds like an approach at censorship to me. The exact purpose of a debate is to express opinions of all sides,...
Problem is imo that this was not the thread to do it in. This is a thread about the lay-offs at Wotc. Not an anti-4E thread. I'm all for debate on a message board. As long as it is civil and in the appropriate thread. This was not the thread imo.
Scott,
I draw comfort in the knowledge that, if I'm ever lost in the wilderness of western Nebraska, far from cell-phone coverage, standing next to my car with a flat tire, looking in through the window at the styrofoam box containing a heart on ice, desperately needed to save a child's life if only I could get it to the Denver hospital in time...
...I would only have to speak aloud, something like "4th Edition really isn't even D&D anymore, and the Skill Challenge mechanics are nonsense." ...
...and suddenly you would pop up, just to berate me, and I could get you to help me fix my car and get me back on the road.
Just don't forget to set up that Magic Circle before adjuring me! Wouldn't want a loose Scott Betts on your hands!
And don't you know that edition wars are off-topic in Nebraska?
Problem is imo that this was not the thread to do it in. This is a thread about the lay-offs at Wotc. Not an anti-4E thread. I'm all for debate on a message board. As long as it is civil and in the appropriate thread. This was not the thread imo.
Agreed. I didn't really see an active thread where it would have been appropriate, though. I was also curious to see if the lay-offs had anything to do with 4E sales, as well. Likely not, but now I know.
Thanks, Erik, for the welcome, as well. I'll drop the anti-4E remarks now that I know. I play on a play-by-post board where it's still a hot topic, so I assumed it was all over. Guess that's what assuming gets me, eh? I am glad for Pathfinder, because it gives me new material to work with in a setting I find works best for me and my group. Keep up the great work!
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Problem is imo that this was not the thread to do it in. This is a thread about the lay-offs at Wotc. Not an anti-4E thread. I'm all for debate on a message board. As long as it is civil and in the appropriate thread. This was not the thread imo.Agreed. I didn't really see an active thread where it would have been appropriate, though. I was also curious to see if the lay-offs had anything to do with 4E sales, as well. Likely not, but now I know.
Thanks, Erik, for the welcome, as well. I'll drop the anti-4E remarks now that I know. I play on a play-by-post board where it's still a hot topic, so I assumed it was all over. Guess that's what assuming gets me, eh? I am glad for Pathfinder, because it gives me new material to work with in a setting I find works best for me and my group. Keep up the great work!
Well don't worry about it, we all at times ass-u-me about things often with the same results. But welcome to the boards and hopefully you will enjoy your time here, especially if you like and use Paizo pathfinder products and want to discuss them or what direction they should take and stuff.
Problem is imo that this was not the thread to do it in. This is a thread about the lay-offs at Wotc. Not an anti-4E thread. I'm all for debate on a message board. As long as it is civil and in the appropriate thread. This was not the thread imo.
Not the thread to do it...well that's a bummer. I wanted to deconstruct the 'It's WoW' statement and argue about its elements. You guys are no fun.
I feel really bad for the guys at WotC who lost their jobs. Doesn't it seem like a really bad PR move to lay people off before xmas? I mean, it's happened so many times with WotC now, that they've actually got the reputation of 'the company that lets people go during the holidays' If I ran a company, I wouldn't want that hanging around my neck.
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I mean, it's happened so many times with WotC now, that they've actually got the reputation of 'the company that lets people go during the holidays' If I ran a company, I wouldn't want that hanging around my neck.
Not only are they far from alone in the business world, they're not even alone in our *industry*. Another local game company (which I won't name) actually had two separate rounds of layoffs in December.
(Paizo had holiday bonuses instead. We like those a lot better.)
*snip*
(Paizo had holiday bonuses instead. We like those a lot better.)
Although I could likely guess the 'other' company, I like this line. Bonuses are good. I'm glad to see that happening to such good people.
/d
WOTC make some good products. After Days of Wonder having to be bought by Fantasy Flight I think all companies need to take the hard decisions (laying off staff is a tough and unpleasant task for any manager) and stay in business in this challenging economy. We have very few of what we all think of as proper 'companies' in this industry. The designers laid off have a following and hopefully will do some more stuff. My company had its first layoffs ever this year (100+, many divisions closed) and no matter how a company goes about it, people will be angry that there are layoffs. But it's just business, and the more companies that do business in an above-board and diligent manner, the bigger our industry will be. WOTC by being a success has brought many talents to the public eye, so I wish them and all game companies small or large success and survival.
