It's just too bad that they gave us a good product after spending six months promising us an amazing one. They shot themselves in the foot by talking it up to the point where they couldn't possibly live up to their own standards. Even if the current incarnation is good, those of us who remember their pie in the sky marketing are still waiting for the magic to happen, thus engendering even more distaste for WotC. It's too bad and a classic case of promising too much, delivering too little, too late.
I don't agree that this is still really doing them any harm. It certainly was released badly but the fall out from that is done with and has likely been so for more then a year. The present incarnation of the DDI is an exceptional tool for running 4E games and most people in the 4E community make sure they have access to it. After that I don't think anything else really matters much to WotC - people not in the 4E community were not going to give them money anyway.
Now if they could figure out how to make a virtual table top they might still do it because it may bring in a lot of people that did not historically play 4E...
...but they might also have just swept this under the rug. It'd cost a fortune to make and, in the past, when they discussed putting this out with a hike in fees for the DDI the biggest storm in the teapot was not people excited about having this but people demanding that WotC allow them to forgo this unwanted product and just keep the rest of the DDI at a lower price point. That's when I started thinking we might well never see this.
When the biggest buzz on the most recent release of your latest wizz bang product is half your customer base insisting that they don't want it and won't pay for it maybe its time to see the light and focus on giving them what they do want (which appears to amount to an ever expanding data base program - boring but super useful to 4E users).
I'm sorry to hear that this tradition continues. I'd think that anyone who accepted a design job at WoTC would try to get an extra dollop of relocation money added to the back end of their contract. The "If you let me go before three calendar years are up, you're paying reasonable relocation expenses to the city of my choice." clause.
The people WoTC fires for this are generally their game design staff, not their content writers. I've found that there are people who can do game design, and there are people who can write content, but people who do both mechanics and settings with equal facility are rarer than hen's teeth.
It's just too bad that they gave us a good product after spending six months promising us an amazing one. They shot themselves in the foot by talking it up to the point where they couldn't possibly live up to their own standards. Even if the current incarnation is good, those of us who remember their pie in the sky marketing are still waiting for the magic to happen, thus engendering even more distaste for WotC. It's too bad and a classic case of promising too much, delivering too little, too late.
I think its more the case they, eventually, saw the light.
I mean they might still do the virtual table top if they think they can actually bring in a lot of new people with that but, honestly, I doubt it.
The last we heard about this they announced that they would eventually put out the virtual table top along with a hike in DDI fees. So what did they get for the announcement? A huge storm in a teapot where half the audience made it vehemently clear that they did not want this product and they had no plans to pay for it. The other half of the audience did not really jump up and down squeeing happily about this product either - they just seemed kind of apathetic with a few significant exceptions.
The end result is it appears that the virtual table top is going to cost a fortune to make and not very many people appear to give a rats rear end about it. Meanwhile the rest of the DDI has become a 'must have' product for 4E players. I think WotC finally saw the light - what most of the audience appears to really want is data base programs to help run their games - not much in existence more boring then a data base program but they sure are good for running a pen and paper RPG.
I'm sure the WotC marketing department is crying in their beer at this point - their job is to somehow make a database program sound cool and exciting - which ranks write up there with being the head of tourism for Iceland.
I'm sorry to hear that this tradition continues. I'd think that anyone who accepted a design job at WoTC would try to get an extra dollop of relocation money added to the back end of their contract. The "If you let me go before three calendar years are up, you're paying reasonable relocation expenses to the city of my choice." clause.
The people WoTC fires for this are generally their game design staff, not their content writers. I've found that there are people who can do game design, and there are people who can write content, but people who do both mechanics and settings with equal facility are rarer than hen's teeth.
Don't think potential employees can really put much in terms of demands in. Way to many people willing to jump at a chance to work in this industry - especially for WotC which pays above average for this industry. Beyond that I've read (on a post at enworld) that they already give out a pretty good severance package.
In the end it seems to be a very corporate environment (except that your peers are other gamers and you work on games all day) with all the good and all the bad that this entails.
It's just too bad that they gave us a good product after spending six months promising us an amazing one. They shot themselves in the foot by talking it up to the point where they couldn't possibly live up to their own standards. Even if the current incarnation is good, those of us who remember their pie in the sky marketing are still waiting for the magic to happen, thus engendering even more distaste for WotC. It's too bad and a classic case of promising too much, delivering too little, too late.
This is more a marketing flaw than an actual flaw with the DDI. If they had not promised the gameboard and such, everyone would think DDI was a huge success. In my mind, the DDI is a huge success. I've never seen a better computerized character builder or monster builder for any roleplaying game of any edition. A magic of a certain kind has happened, just not the magic they originally promised.
During the release of 4e and several months prior, they made huge mistakes as far as marketing. It's kind of shocking looking back at it. They should have hired my company as a consultant. :) They've seemed to correct some of their marketing mistakes since then.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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This is more a marketing flaw than an actual flaw with the DDI. If they had not promised the gameboard and such, everyone would think DDI was a huge success. In my mind, the DDI is a huge success. I've never seen a better computerized character builder or monster builder for any roleplaying game of any edition. A magic of a certain kind has happened, just not the magic they originally promised.
Right, but that's like saying "Sorry kids, I know I promised you Heaven, but I got us as far as Jersey... Enjoy!" Jersey may be your cup of tea but it's still disappointing after being promised heaven. In this day and age you can't divorce marketing and game, especially from a big company like WotC, who has an actual budget for this sort of thing.
Right, but that's like saying "Sorry kids, I know I promised you Heaven, but I got us as far as Jersey... Enjoy!" Jersey may be your cup of tea but it's still disappointing after being promised heaven. In this day and age you can't divorce marketing and game, especially from a big company like WotC, who has an actual budget for this sort of thing.
Analogies are always faulty, but if we're going to, I'll use this one: Instead of my dream of winning an Academy Award, I won an Emmy. I do think that the Tools thus far are achievements in their own right, even if WotC hasn't come through on other promised items.
I think we can agree that screwing up the marketing as they did was just downright inexcusable. They are a multinational company, and yet they didn't fulfill on promised products. It was just one of the many marketing errors they made.
It's just too bad that they gave us a good product after spending six months promising us an amazing one. They shot themselves in the foot by talking it up to the point where they couldn't possibly live up to their own standards. Even if the current incarnation is good, those of us who remember their pie in the sky marketing are still waiting for the magic to happen, thus engendering even more distaste for WotC. It's too bad and a classic case of promising too much, delivering too little, too late.
Given the truly tremendous amount of support put out for the current DDI applications, I don't think it's in any danger of going the way of E-Tools. The Character Builder and Monster Builder have been almost universally praised (even by those who don't like 4th Edition) as great examples of digital game tools. WotC isn't releasing more applications because they want every app they release to be of that same high quality. About a year ago they decided they were going to take the same stance Blizzard has towards their digital games: don't talk about upcoming releases until you are positive you can deliver on what you talk about. That's what they've been doing in the year since, and it's been working well for them.
As Jeremy said, I think very few of us who have actually played around with DDI extensively have much in the way of distaste towards WotC over it. It's just about the best thing they've ever put together, from where I stand.
The people WoTC fires for this are generally their game design staff, not their content writers. I've found that there are people who can do game design, and there are people who can write content, but people who do both mechanics and settings with equal facility are rarer than hen's teeth.
Though they have laid off content people as well. I suspect you will find strong correlations with a) higher-paid employees, b) higher users of company health/medical benefits and/or c) those who received poor performance reviews, which can either be accurate or slanted because the management doesn't review your work fairly.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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As Jeremy said, I think very few of us who have actually played around with DDI extensively have much in the way of distaste towards WotC over it. It's just about the best thing they've ever put together, from where I stand.
And that's fine, but I think we've gone off topic enough for this thread.
My sympathies to those who were laid off, again.
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I'm sure the WotC marketing department is crying in their beer at this point - their job is to somehow make a database program sound cool and exciting - which ranks write up there with being the head of tourism for Iceland.
<threadjack>
Heh. You clearly don't know anything about Iceland. Tourists go there in the summer to ride the Icelandic horses on a tour of the volcanoes. Rich friends of mine did this a couple years ago and had a blast, they brought back great pictures.
</threadjack>
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Hmmmm, I think they should re-release Alternity....Not until next year when they can finally get rid of that pesky Wyatt and that upstart Mearls. Slavicsek and Baker are the masterminds behind Alternity in the first place. 5E D&D might look a lot like 2E Alternity if that happens.
Yay. Let's see a dragon go toe to toe with my Fraal battle cruiser... :)
I guess this is a wake up call that WotC is first and foremost a company and are not there (bottom-line) to do anything other than provide share/stake-holders returns on their investments.
I would have thought that it is wise to hang on to the designers of 4e given the release of 1 PHB per year. I'm thinking it must make it that much harder to keep a level playing field from PHB to PHB. Last thing 4e needs is some "must play" classes that make others redundant.
S.
Question: does WotC go through some kind of hiring process, or does the D&D staff just get smaller and smaller each year?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Question: does WotC go through some kind of hiring process, or does the D&D staff just get smaller and smaller each year?Sort of a "last to leave please turn the lights out" sort of thing?
Last to leave gets to head the next edition!
Many designers enter, one designer leaves!
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Question: does WotC go through some kind of hiring process, or does the D&D staff just get smaller and smaller each year?Sort of a "last to leave please turn the lights out" sort of thing?Last to leave gets to head the next edition!
Many designers enter, one designer leaves!
"There can be only one..."
Actually just thought of a great new reality show (because we NEED more). I would have had Gygax front it, but that's not really possible now. Call the show "5e", catchy sound to it. Annoyed game designers made redundant by their current employer are locked in a house with a pen, 2 pieces of toilet paper and a d20. Each week one is voted off...
I'm keeping a copy of this on my computer, if I see this being aired anytime soon you will be speaking to my lawyers. As I don't actually have a lawyer I'll be calling on Scott... You have been warned.
S.
Question: does WotC go through some kind of hiring process, or does the D&D staff just get smaller and smaller each year?Sort of a "last to leave please turn the lights out" sort of thing?Last to leave gets to head the next edition!
Many designers enter, one designer leaves!
"There can be only one..."
Actually just thought of a great new reality show (because we NEED more). I would have had Gygax front it, but that's not really possible now. Call the show "5e", catchy sound to it. Annoyed game designers made redundant by their current employer are locked in a house with a pen, 2 pieces of toilet paper and a d20. Each week one is voted off...
I'm keeping a copy of this on my computer, if I see this being aired anytime soon you will be speaking to my lawyers. As I don't actually have a lawyer I'll be calling on Scott... You have been warned.
S.
Hopefully the build-up to 5e won't happen until after I've already gotten my J.D., then (which is another four or five years off). ;P
I'm sure the WotC marketing department is crying in their beer at this point - their job is to somehow make a database program sound cool and exciting - which ranks write up there with being the head of tourism for Iceland.<threadjack>
Heh. You clearly don't know anything about Iceland. Tourists go there in the summer to ride the Icelandic horses on a tour of the volcanoes. Rich friends of mine did this a couple years ago and had a blast, they brought back great pictures.
</threadjack>
True, I don't know anything really about Iceland. Though I used to listen to a radio station which would give out 'extreme' trips including ones to Iceland in February.
True, I don't know anything really about Iceland.Off-topic: Didn't their economy collapse recently?
-Skeld
Yes, they were very heavily leveraged. The country was forced to nationalize their bank, receive a bailout from the IMF and solicit multi-billion dollar loans from the Russians.
Condolences to the newly unemployed. This happened to my wife in March when the pharma company she worked for decided to sack nearly three quarters of their HR staff. It can be demoralizing as all get out. I sincerely hope these folks realize that they are talented and gifted designers, writers and artists, regardless of any business decision made by Hasbro/WotC.
The season is upon us again, and Enworld's Morrus reports that Rob Heinsoo, Chris Sims and Logan Bonner have involuntarily parted their ways with WotC.
As always, may there be better things in store with those cast-off the WotC tower!
My best wishes to those that had to go.
[quote Chris Pramas on ENworld=]"These things often also hinge on internal politics, who your friends are, and how well you play (or insulate yourself from) the corporate game. And to be clear, I don't have info on this specific round of layoffs. I'm just generalizing based on past history."
I wonder if corporate managements think that if they fire a few, they not only save a lot of money, but induce the remaining folks to work harder to keep their job. I honestly don´t think that this thinking will do them any good - fear is always a bad advisor, even more so for creative folks.
I´m more than happy that paizo does not go corporate. Of course, if you want to make *more* money, you have to at some point. But as long as there are no shareholders demanding outrageous yields, just the owners themselves who have to earn a living and seeing that their company is healthy (which includes a certain yield of course), and not needing to satisfy some greedy investment bankers, it is probably all the better. I guess greed is one of the Seven Deadly Sins because it can destroy a lot.
Stefan
I wonder if corporate managements think that if they fire a few, they not only save a lot of money, but induce the remaining folks to work harder to keep their job. I honestly don´t think that this thinking will do them any good - fear is always a bad advisor, even more so for creative folks.
The security of jobs as it was in the past is long gone. There is a lot more competition now. If the company is not getting the profit it wants or needs heads are going to roll. I agree that fear is a bad motivator for anyone, but it is the one most people can relate to.
I´m more than happy that paizo does not go corporate. Of course, if you want to make *more* money, you have to at some point.
As long as Paizo is profiting to their liking I'm sure all will be all right. They don't need to be a corporate company, though, to let people go if their not profiting.
For a minute there, I thought this post title was "X-Man layoffs at WOTC". Which would have made my head hurt.Same here. Though wasn't "Decimation" a X-man layoff? ;-)
Part of me wanted to see a picket line with characters we haven't seen in years demanding their jobs back. Most of me just wanted to see Wolverine wrestled to the ground pleading "Don't tase me, bub!" seconds before he got tased.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Most of me just wanted to see Wolverine wrestled to the ground pleading "Don't tase me, bub!" seconds before he got tased.This. A lot.
Someone needs to read X-Men: Forever
Most of me just wanted to see Wolverine wrestled to the ground pleading "Don't tase me, bub!" seconds before he got tased.This. A lot.Someone needs to read X-Men: Forever
** spoiler omitted **
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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** spoiler omitted **Most of me just wanted to see Wolverine wrestled to the ground pleading "Don't tase me, bub!" seconds before he got tased.This. A lot.Someone needs to read X-Men: Forever
** spoiler omitted **
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** spoiler omitted **Most of me just wanted to see Wolverine wrestled to the ground pleading "Don't tase me, bub!" seconds before he got tased.This. A lot.Someone needs to read X-Men: Forever
** spoiler omitted **
This is a new high for completely off-topic, some people lose their jobs and we are more concerned over the love-lives of some cartoon characters. All class guys.
S.
Seriously?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is a new high for completely off-topic, some people lose their jobs and we are more concerned over the love-lives of some cartoon characters. All class guys.
S.
Wow,
Considering I just survived round of of 'Wheel of layoffs' and have round 2 in March, I really take it as 'better to laugh at the reaper'.
Yes, it sucks that folks lost their jobs. That said, what can we do, hold a wake?
They did this every year during 3rd as well. Heck the policy seems to predate their ownership of TSR's products. Goes back to '97 or '98 according to an old post by Vic (Vic had an accurate date I've just forgotten which year he mentioned). Hence it remains unclear to me how '4th edition' is the answer to this policy.I presume there is some kind of method to the madness but its not clear what that method is at all.You really want to know... two words 4th Edition
do i really need to give you any more reasons than that.
I'd say that was a pitiful attempt at starting another flame war!!
Speaking from a big business, it does appear to be a customary 'plan' to show additional funds in the coffers by laying people off and saying 'look we will be saving\gaining this amount of money over the projected 12 months'. The actual person is rarely anything to do with the whole process.
It's big business.
And to be honest I have seen way too many business's go under this last 12 months due to the recession so I hope WOTC do continue.
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As I see it, WOTC is very likely going to end up making less money on their books than they've ever made before.
At the risk of saying something everybody already knows: The DDI character generator is so effective that I'm surprised people still bother to lug books around; you're looking at an annual fee to gain access to a program that gets updated every month, and holds every bit of crunch the system has to offer in one nifty creation tool that does all the math for you, eliminates the need to dig through three or four books to make your character, auto-fills a character sheet and creates power cards as you level up.
To boot: the program runs on computers going on 7 years old, [snark]the only drawback it is limited [sic] to five downloads per account, per update, so only four of your friends can download the program off of your account[/snark]. Armed with access to a username and password, there isn't much going for a ton of books when you could very likely just avoid purchasing the next ten $30 books, using the money saved to acquire a cheap laptop, and play the game off said laptop. Some people may prefer the feel of a book in their hands, but I'm far far happier with money in my pocket, a lighter load to and from the game table (1 laptop vs 2-7 books, depending on the day), and less of a chance of me having to do math.
So, all in all, I can see why primarily PnP guys might end up on the chopping block. Not that I feel it justified, but that's just my $0.02, viva la internet focused branches of WOTC!
As I see it, WOTC is very likely going to end up making less money on their books than they've ever made before.
At the risk of saying something everybody already knows: The DDI character generator is so effective that I'm surprised people still bother to lug books around; you're looking at an annual fee to gain access to a program that gets updated every month, and holds every bit of crunch the system has to offer in one nifty creation tool that does all the math for you, eliminates the need to dig through three or four books to make your character, auto-fills a character sheet and creates power cards as you level up.
To boot: the program runs on computers going on 7 years old, [snark]the only drawback it is limited [sic] to five downloads per account, per update, so only four of your friends can download the program off of your account[/snark]. Armed with access to a username and password, there isn't much going for a ton of books when you could very likely just avoid purchasing the next ten $30 books, using the money saved to acquire a cheap laptop, and play the game off said laptop. Some people may prefer the feel of a book in their hands, but I'm far far happier with money in my pocket, a lighter load to and from the game table (1 laptop vs 2-7 books, depending on the day), and less of a chance of me having to do math.
So, all in all, I can see why primarily PnP guys might end up on the chopping block. Not that I feel it justified, but that's just my $0.02, viva la internet focused branches of WOTC!
I can see how all of this makes a certain amount of sense but they still need to provide content for the DDI itself so they need either writers or editors for that. Plus they still have a book heavy schedule with Darksun et al. coming down the pipeline.
Plus they still have a book heavy schedule with Darksun et al. coming down the pipeline.
I hope the real book format stays relevent.
I like my Mac. My 4E bookbag may be heavy, but at least I don't have to buy into a PC (no offense, I've just made my choice,) to play the game.
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This is a new high for completely off-topic, some people lose their jobs and we are more concerned over the love-lives of some cartoon characters. All class guys.
S.
Wow,
Considering I just survived round of of 'Wheel of layoffs' and have round 2 in March, I really take it as 'better to laugh at the reaper'.
Yes, it sucks that folks lost their jobs. That said, what can we do, hold a wake?
** spoiler omitted **
Nope, they'll get some fine positions doing cool things for sure. Just the thread had got both WAY of topic and WAY X-Men uber-geeks only. Laughing at the reaper would have been all good, the discussion about fictional mutants in spandex... Having said that as a youth I watched the X-Men cartoon on TV and thought Storm had great breasts... Ah puberty.
S.
And to be honest I have seen way too many business's go under this last 12 months due to the recession so I hope WOTC do continue.I hear Magic: the Gathering is doing *very* well this year.
That game has life, I still have my old cards, mostly revised and later but some few beta and all still I am amazed. I knew a guy who built his store to a great success off that game in the early to mid 90s, he had a full store all weekend long and really made buck.
I am just impressed they can keep it alive and still drawing in new players.
As bad as the economy is doing there are some industries making out well, we are currently looking to hire nearly 1200 people in the NY/NJ area in the first 6 months alone. So it isn't all doom and gloom.
As bad as the economy is doing there are some industries making out well, we are currently looking to hire nearly 1200 people in the NY/NJ area in the first 6 months alone. So it isn't all doom and gloom.
Likewise. My company is hiring as well. So some industries are doing pretty well.
And to be honest I have seen way too many business's go under this last 12 months due to the recession so I hope WOTC do continue.I hear Magic: the Gathering is doing *very* well this year.
It's seeing the first real revival at my university in years. People are actually holding tournaments, a student club has started, and wild games of free magic are being played during spare time.
I feel bad for them. They were good designers.
As to the insights provided by Vic, Mike, and Lisa... Thank you for explaining them.
LPJ Design's offer looks pretty nice, from my outsider point of view, and it would bring home something of a paycheck (I hope I hope).
Anyways, good luck Rob, Logan, and Chris. I enjoy your material, and hope you can continue.
/d
It's seeing the first real revival at my university in years. People are actually holding tournaments, a student club has started, and wild games of free magic are being played during spare time.And to be honest I have seen way too many business's go under this last 12 months due to the recession so I hope WOTC do continue.I hear Magic: the Gathering is doing *very* well this year.
R&D made some smart decisions in the last little while - in particular they weakened the 'control' decks and strengthened the creature decks. The result is that little Timmy is still going to loose the game when he plays his deck against an older more experienced player but he is going to get to play his good cards and he is going to have some fun. When control decks ruled the roost they made the game not fun for little timmy because every time he tried to play a creature they countered it - so the whole game was all about little Timmy sitting there and not being allowed to play at all - 'not fun'. Little Timmy can handle loosing so long as he gets to play too.