P.S. The plural of eidolon should probably be "eidolons" or "eidola," not "eidolon's" ... Or is it "eidoli"? "Eidolae"? Does anyone here speak Greek?
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Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.Just so im clear, does that mean that the items ONLY return to the eidolon when it is summoned again if it is a cursed item? Is it only the cursed item that returns immediately?
Do they return and are equiped? Or are just next to him like on the floor in his square?
Also, how does the cursed item return to the Eidolon if it falls to the floor and is left there and the Eidolon next summoned 100 miles down the road?
Good change to the Eidolon. Not as happy with change to SLA. I'm not sure both changes of duration and instances were necessary (and casting time just adds insult to injury). As far as i was concerned the problem wasn't power so much as logistics.
For what it's worth, I heartily SECOND your opinion!
Director of Games
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Also, how does the cursed item return to the Eidolon if it falls to the floor and is left there and the Eidolon next summoned 100 miles down the road?Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.Just so im clear, does that mean that the items ONLY return to the eidolon when it is summoned again if it is a cursed item? Is it only the cursed item that returns immediately?
Do they return and are equiped? Or are just next to him like on the floor in his square?
The items are not equipped, with the exception of cursed items... which simply appear with the eidolon.
I am not thrilled with the cursed item bit, but in lieu of another solution, I am going to leave it for the time being.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I actually liked the summoner class as it was. The Eidolon change cleared some things up, and it didn't change the class too much. The SLA nerf on the other hand robs me of all desire to play this class. I would be happy with the ability to only use one of them at a time to maintain balance, but taking away the longer duration means at lower levels my summoner will have to chain summon just to keep some monsters on the field of battle most of the time and slowing them down to a full round action means the summoner has to just stand there and summon instead of at least being able move with the party. also it makes the SLA inferior to simply casting the spell since those can be affected by metamagic rods, and makes the summoner less likely to use the spells which enhance the party, and only use the SLA when they are burnt out of spells.
I think that just adding the standard action cast to the class ability would be a good balance because u can use the summon immediately which makes it good at lvl 1. An immediate attack from a riding dog which if hits can trip is really solid.
i would still be happy even if u dont further change the abilty at all because as written it is really good class but i thought this might be something to think about
I just don't think its right that a summoner is worse with summoning than a conjurer speced wizard.
I would be curious to see the logic behind this.
A summoner can cast 6-8 of their highest level summons per day via SLA. He can also cast normal summoning spells as well. A wizard can cast 2-3 of his highest level summons during the day. Then 3-4 of his second highest.
An example:
Start of round 1 the summoner has 1 BAMF summons on the table already. Wizard has none.
Start of Round 2 summoner and wizard bring out their Summon Monster X (where X is the highest level available summons)
Round 3 Wizard brings out a second Summon Monster X, summoner calls a summon monster X from his spell list.
Round 3 (we'll assume an even numbered level) Wizard brings out Summon Monster X, Summoner brings out Summon Monster X-1 from spell.
At this point it appears the wizard does have an edge, but he's now tapped his highest level power, his summons just get worse from here. When the summoner's first Monster X goes down he can re-summon it, or summon one for the next encounter.
So The wizard has an edge in a single encounter if he novas but the summoner has more staying power and the Eidolon kind of dwarfs a normal summons. So where does "Summoner is worse" at summoning come in?
Also, how does the cursed item return to the Eidolon if it falls to the floor and is left there and the Eidolon next summoned 100 miles down the road?
It's magic!
It makes sense mechanically at least - cursed items are notorious hard to get rid of (otherwise they wouldn't be considered cursed).
This is probably getting into the realm of things that aren't worth taking up valuable space in the rulebook, but you could say that cursed items (only) do follow the eidolon back home when it leaves.
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Aww man, long-duration summons that allow you to
1. use them better at low levels and
2. actually use them for utility
were one of my favorite features of the class! Is there any chance we'll maybe see a feat that does this, or something?
It seems we have two kinds of summoner fans, those who want to focus entirely on the eidolon, and those who see the summoner as a 'I may only know a few spells, but summons are _very_ versatile, so I can do a lot with them!' type like the Shaper/Constructor.
Edit: Good to hear you're considering bumping it back up. Personally, it's the duration that hurts the most -- the casting time hurts a bit, but only in combat. I don't mind the limit of one active summon SLA at a time -- there are few situations where you should be mass summoning, and if you want to you can always just cast Summon Monster from spell slots.
Perhaps some kind of class feature that focuses on one of these two aspects, like how you can have a melee or a ranged ranger? One version of the feature for those who just care about the eidolon, and another version for those who see summoners and their summons and spells as an awesome toolbox?
I will be honest, as a GM, the thought of an NPC summoner dropping multiple summon monsters on a party worried me more than player problems. The question was, "why won't an NPC that was meant to die NOT do this?" Yes that is metagaming, but the question is still valid.
The idea of a prepared boss villan placing multiple long duration summoned monsters against a party is a concern IMO. Given the right conditions, the PCS could quickly face overwhelming numbers. Even if the encounter did not result in a TPK, the summoned creatures do not provide XP. This could result in extra resouces being spent for no reward, and that screws the players.
In anycase, this particular concern may have been fixed with just the return to a full round casting time and duration (putting the summoner on par with other spellcasters) and not stopping the multiple summons, but I am not sure.
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I just finished my first play session with a summoner when I saw this, and while I think that the changes to the Eidolon make sense and I agree with them, and I think the limit on one active SLA at any one time is also a good idea, I do have to say that losing the 1 min/level really hurts, so much so that I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't want to play the class nearly as much
I think that the 1 active SLA, and even keep the casting time at one round, but you gotta give that 1 min/level back. Otherwise it is just an ability that at low levels is not very useful and a higher levels is only marginally more useful than simply casting the spell version of it.
Hey there all,
I have been going through a great deal of playtest feedback and speculation over the past few days. It has become obvious to me that there needs to be a few adjustments made to the summoner for balance reasons. Although I would not say that these changes are final, from this point onward, they are part of the class for playtesting purposes (this includes the Pathfinder Society Organized Play). I need to implement these changes to get a bit more productive feedback, since the issue seems to be skewing results a bit too heavily.
Feel free to post comments and feedback concerning this rules change in this thread, but leave other issued out of this discussion please.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Eidolon's are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolon's with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolon's cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolon's can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
In addition to the above language, the following changes are made to the summoner.- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as...
I think if you are limiting the summons to 1 you need to bump the monsters up to the next level. IE a 5th level summons turn into a 6th level.
I still think tentacles and Energy evolutions are too cheap.
Thanks for listening and allowing us to provide feedback.
I just don't think its right that a summoner is worse with summoning than a conjurer speced wizard.I would be curious to see the logic behind this.
A summoner can cast 6-8 of their highest level summons per day via SLA. He can also cast normal summoning spells as well. A wizard can cast 2-3 of his highest level summons during the day. Then 3-4 of his second highest.
An example:
Start of round 1 the summoner has 1 BAMF summons on the table already. Wizard has none.Start of Round 2 summoner and wizard bring out their Summon Monster X (where X is the highest level available summons)
Round 3 Wizard brings out a second Summon Monster X, summoner calls a summon monster X from his spell list.
Round 3 (we'll assume an even numbered level) Wizard brings out Summon Monster X, Summoner brings out Summon Monster X-1 from spell.
At this point it appears the wizard does have an edge, but he's now tapped his highest level power, his summons just get worse from here. When the summoner's first Monster X goes down he can re-summon it, or summon one for the next encounter.
So The wizard has an edge in a single encounter if he novas but the summoner has more staying power and the Eidolon kind of dwarfs a normal summons. So where does "Summoner is worse" at summoning come in?
Unless you are a conjurer, in which case you have a summoned monster on the board already as well. Of course the 20th level wizard (conjurer) also has at their disposal, time stop, which makes the whole thing moot, because the summoner and eidolon will be toast.
The summoner benefit would be hey I can put a monster on the field and move, where the conjurer would have to stand still which would give the summoner an advantage. Now the conjurer has longer summoned creatures, a permanent IX creature walking around with them, and has same casting time. Yeah the summoner can cast summon monster more times, but again, why in the world would you spend round after round doing that anyway. Unless their is a whole army you are facing it doesn't make sense. And if there was a whole army the sorcerer blasting away with area effect spells would be more potent.
The limit of one SLA summon monster at a time makes sense and really has little impact in my opinion since I still have not seen a viable situation come up with any frequency where throwing a ton of creatures out beforehand would make sense.
I agree the casting time and duration were the draws of the class to me even more so than the eidolon since it was unique and had value beyond just combat. I know others have said it but at least in our games we almost never have combats that occur within 20 minutes of one another. Hours? Absolutely. But minutes is rare so it really does not impact a game. But again just my opinion based on playing the game.
To me it was pretty cool to summon a creature to clean up the dead bodies on the field, or bury them, or scout a location. The minute duration offered a ton of versatility that no one else had. Round durations for summons make them only really useful for combat and you have to be able to sit there for a round and do nothing else. Definitely not as exciting to play since I can get most of the same with an existing class.
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I just don't think its right that a summoner is worse with summoning than a conjurer speced wizard.I would be curious to see the logic behind this.
A summoner can cast 6-8 of their highest level summons per day via SLA. He can also cast normal summoning spells as well. A wizard can cast 2-3 of his highest level summons during the day. Then 3-4 of his second highest.
An example:
Start of round 1 the summoner has 1 BAMF summons on the table already. Wizard has none.Start of Round 2 summoner and wizard bring out their Summon Monster X (where X is the highest level available summons)
Round 3 Wizard brings out a second Summon Monster X, summoner calls a summon monster X from his spell list.
Round 3 (we'll assume an even numbered level) Wizard brings out Summon Monster X, Summoner brings out Summon Monster X-1 from spell.
At this point it appears the wizard does have an edge, but he's now tapped his highest level power, his summons just get worse from here. When the summoner's first Monster X goes down he can re-summon it, or summon one for the next encounter.
So The wizard has an edge in a single encounter if he novas but the summoner has more staying power and the Eidolon kind of dwarfs a normal summons. So where does "Summoner is worse" at summoning come in?
Actually at round three they are still tied, the wizards 3 summon monster only equals his summons to the summoner because of the eidelon and the summoner still has more on the table because of his summon monster X-1
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Also the Summoner seems to lend itself to helping out in combat more. That isn't going to be the case if he has to sit there for a round and take aoo. He is most likely going to lose his spell before it goes off if he is anywhere near the enemy.
The it was originally allowed a 5' step back and cast summon monster for some quick support. I agree completely with the 1 active at a time though.
For those that thought of the ability to summon as "playing chess with my pieces", having a shorter duration on the summon vs a conjurer is a bitter pill. With the more limited spell list, while you DO have more of those top level summons, you really have fewer overall options, so those summons SHOULD be better.
Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. I must have missed the earlier reference to the conjurer's bonus time, I'd completely forgotten about that.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Summoner get some additional time so they can use the ability at first level and use it a little for utility. On the flip side, it's a very powerful class and would be great even without the additional time.
The items are not equipped, with the exception of cursed items... which simply appear with the eidolon.I am not thrilled with the cursed item bit, but in lieu of another solution, I am going to leave it for the time being.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly, this is really really flaky Jason. Plus it leads to really really odd happenstances, for example, the Eidolon is dismissed, the cursed item falls to the ground, and then is given to an NPC who puts it on.
When the Eidolon is resummoned, what happens? The cursed item is already 'attached' to a new person. Do both of them suddenly become equipment on the Eidolon? Some poor farmer is now strapped to the Eidolon's cursed shield? ;)
I think it would be easier and more logical if all magical equipment being used by an Eidolon is pulled with him to the plane, but any non-magical equipment (or magical equipment that is not equipped) is left behind. So if you give him a battleaxe and a backpack, that drops to the ground. Give him a +5 longsword and a +2 shield and he appears wearing that.
Unless you are a conjurer, in which case you have a summoned monster on the board already as well. Of course the 20th level wizard (conjurer) also has at their disposal, time stop, which makes the whole thing moot, because the summoner and eidolon will be toast.
No fair bringing non-conjuring into the mix.
Ultimately, the conjurer is just as strong, or stronger because he brings a lot of other talents to the table, not because he's a better summoner. Though I guess you could say time stop is the ultimate boost for summoning. Also, time stop is a 9th level spells which doesn't come into play for a long time.
This is why I thought the whole thread about the summoner eliminating the conjurer was so silly. The classes bring different things to the table.
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Are you still planning on rebalancing evolution point costs? because some are seriously just off.
and what about large size and huge size, how come you took away the stat boosts for AnCos, but kept them in the eidelons? The stat boosts are majorly broken when you compare going to large size to the ability increase point cost.
I'm just making sure that this update isn't the last of them, cause there are still some issues, but this update does fix the most glaring.
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The items are not equipped, with the exception of cursed items... which simply appear with the eidolon.I am not thrilled with the cursed item bit, but in lieu of another solution, I am going to leave it for the time being.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingHonestly, this is really really flaky Jason. Plus it leads to really really odd happenstances, for example, the Eidolon is dismissed, the cursed item falls to the ground, and then is given to an NPC who puts it on.
When the Eidolon is resummoned, what happens? The cursed item is already 'attached' to a new person. Do both of them suddenly become equipment on the Eidolon? Some poor farmer is now strapped to the Eidolon's cursed shield? ;)
I think it would be easier and more logical if all magical equipment being used by an Eidolon is pulled with him to the plane, but any non-magical equipment (or magical equipment that is not equipped) is left behind. So if you give him a battleaxe and a backpack, that drops to the ground. Give him a +5 longsword and a +2 shield and he appears wearing that.
I would much rather an eidelon just not be able to use magical equipment.
With the exception of a magic weapon with the right evolution of course I would much prefer if eidelons just couldn't use magic items, say it interfere's with their morphic structure or something.
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Director of Games
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Are you still planning on rebalancing evolution point costs? because some are seriously just off.
and what about large size and huge size, how come you took away the stat boosts for AnCos, but kept them in the eidelons? The stat boosts are majorly broken when you compare going to large size to the ability increase point cost.
I'm just making sure that this update isn't the last of them, cause there are still some issues, but this update does fix the most glaring.
There are some other changes that I have in mind, but most of them are too clouded by the problems caused by the armor training evolutions. I am interested in seeing some feedback without them muddling up the field.
I am well aware of some of the other problems with this class, but I am currently swamped with the next two, so fixing every bug with the summoner is going to need to wait a bit. (so.. yes, there are some other changes, but no, you will not seeing them in the immediate future).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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Honestly, this is really really flaky Jason. Plus it leads to really really odd happenstances, for example, the Eidolon is dismissed, the cursed item falls to the ground, and then is given to an NPC who puts it on.
Like a biscuit?
This is a fluid process folks. This sort of flexibility lets me see how some things work, in absence of other things. The curse bit is just tacking on a bit of rules to cover an infrequent loophole. Since I am not 100% sure that anything about this update is final, it is fine for the time being.
The questioning in valid, but I think you could be a little less aggressive here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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As a side note, any chance Jason could edit the post to put in that the Eidolon can understand and speak the languages that the summoner can? He mentioned it in another post, but it will likely be buried and the subject will come up again.
This is True...
The eidolon can speak any languages that the summoner can speak.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly, this is really really flaky Jason. Plus it leads to really really odd happenstances, for example, the Eidolon is dismissed, the cursed item falls to the ground, and then is given to an NPC who puts it on.Like a biscuit?
This is a fluid process folks. This sort of flexibility lets me see how some things work, in absence of other things. The curse bit is just tacking on a bit of rules to cover an infrequent loophole. Since I am not 100% sure that anything about this update is final, it is fine for the time being.
The questioning in valid, but I think you could be a little less aggressive here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Wasn't trying to be aggressive, was trying to be funny (the farmer strapped to the shield). :)
Just trying to put in a 2 cents worth. It is kind of wonky, you have to admit.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I also think the no armor change is at least a step in the right direction (though perhaps a slight decrease in natural armor and letting eidolons spend feats for armor like other creatures could also work.)
Also, I think the allowed magic item slots are a bit too restrictive. Why can't an eidolon wear shoes/boot/horseshoes for instance, or bracers, if they have arms or legs? I see that this starts to impact the serpent form, but there's nothing stopping a serpent from having arms or legs, similar to a wyvern or dragon.
As for cursed items re-appearing on eidolons, I don't see that as any different as a character dropping a cursed item, teleporting, and having the cursed item mysteriously being on their person again.
As for the SLA summon monsters, one at a time works for me, but think some duration boost would be in order, so that low level summoners can get a bit more value from it. As has been suggested in the past, how about a flat 1 minute bonus to the duration, plus 1/round per level?
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Are you still planning on rebalancing evolution point costs? because some are seriously just off.
and what about large size and huge size, how come you took away the stat boosts for AnCos, but kept them in the eidelons? The stat boosts are majorly broken when you compare going to large size to the ability increase point cost.
I'm just making sure that this update isn't the last of them, cause there are still some issues, but this update does fix the most glaring.
Am I missing something? You are talking about the stat boosts for increasing in size right? Or are you talking about the STR/DEX Bonus?
I'm looking at the core rulebook and the summoner pdf right now, and the Eidolon Large evolution is as follows:Large (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large.
The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to
Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes
a –2 penalty to its Dexterity.
But you look at a Wolf Animal Companion who advances to Large:
Wolf
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft.; AC +2 natural
armor; Attack bite (1d6 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex
15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities scent.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural
armor; Attack bite (1d8 plus trip); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex
–2, Con +4.
They both get STR +8, DEX -2, CON +4, and +2 Natural Armor for going up in size. So... what stat boost does the Eidolon have that the Animal Companion doesn't (other than Ability Score Increase Evolution)?
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Director of Games
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Wasn't trying to be aggressive, was trying to be funny (the farmer strapped to the shield). :)
Just trying to put in a 2 cents worth. It is kind of wonky, you have to admit.
That, it certainly is.
And no worries.. it is hard to gauge tone on the tubes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Wasn't trying to be aggressive, was trying to be funny (the farmer strapped to the shield). :)
Just trying to put in a 2 cents worth. It is kind of wonky, you have to admit.
That, it certainly is.
And no worries.. it is hard to gauge tone on the tubes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yep, why I wanted to correct say something. :) Better to be thought of as someone with a quirky sense of humor that is hard to translate via text than a ******** (insert your favorite insult here). :)
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Are you still planning on rebalancing evolution point costs? because some are seriously just off.
and what about large size and huge size, how come you took away the stat boosts for AnCos, but kept them in the eidelons? The stat boosts are majorly broken when you compare going to large size to the ability increase point cost.
I'm just making sure that this update isn't the last of them, cause there are still some issues, but this update does fix the most glaring.
Am I missing something? You are talking about the stat boosts for increasing in size right? Or are you talking about the STR/DEX Bonus?
I'm looking at the core rulebook and the summoner pdf right now, and the Eidolon Large evolution is as follows:
Large (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large.
The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to
Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes
a –2 penalty to its Dexterity.But you look at a Wolf Animal Companion who advances to Large:
Wolf
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft.; AC +2 natural
armor; Attack bite (1d6 plus trip); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex
15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities scent.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural
armor; Attack bite (1d8 plus trip); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex
–2, Con +4.They both get STR +8, DEX -2, CON +4, and +2 Natural Armor for going up in size. So... what stat boost does the Eidolon have that the Animal Companion doesn't (other than Ability Score Increase Evolution)?
My bad, I was comparing it to the stat boost of going from small to medium in AnCo.
In that case then the large and huge size evolutions are just underpriced.
It seems that the changes to the Eidolon are a little unbalanced in favor of humanoid forms due to the ability to use rings, weapons and shields. Is there any chance of getting some love for the quads and serpents to mitigate this ?You might notice that the quads and serpents have some evolutions that the biped cannot access.
Its a tradeoff... but I am willing to see how it goes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Fair enough!
Hmm apparently an Eidolon can still take a mithril chain shirt since it has no armour check penalty is this right?
Note sure. I think Jason has changed it so you can't give them armor at all. After all, they don't really need an evolution to take armor, they could take proficiencies with feats, unless they specifically can't wear armor.
Personally, I'd prefer to tone down the natural armor and let them wear barding or armor, it feels neater and less forced than 'Oh, they change too often', since really, they don't. Not at low levels, and even at higher levels.
Yep, why I wanted to correct say something. :) Better to be thought of as someone with a quirky sense of humor that is hard to translate via text than a ******** (insert your favorite insult here). :)
Don't worry, MDT, your gaming group knows the truth.
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Hmm apparently an Eidolon can still take a mithril chain shirt since it has no armour check penalty is this right? Apparently proficiency only comes into it if there is an armour check penalty (Arcane spellcasters can apparently do the same thing)
Incorrect. It does not say anything about proficiency, it says "eidolon's cannot wear armor due to their shifting form".