I've begun turning my brain towards what a Summoner only party would look like. Normally this is an almost absolute no-no with most classes (although I seem to recall the 3.5 Cleric worked out well as a party of 4). The Eidolon has some amazing flexibility as has been demonstrated in the sample eidolon thread, so I'm naturally curious if the summoner can be made to fit all four main party rolls.
Any thoughts on how to approach this multi-build puzzle. Builds for the eidolons, and builds for individual summoners?
I've begun turning my brain towards what a Summoner only party would look like. Normally this is an almost absolute no-no with most classes (although I seem to recall the 3.5 Cleric worked out well as a party of 4). The Eidolon has some amazing flexibility as has been demonstrated in the sample eidolon thread, so I'm naturally curious if the summoner can be made to fit all four main party rolls.
Any thoughts on how to approach this multi-build puzzle. Builds for the eidolons, and builds for individual summoners?
Well first of all one summoner would have a highly offensive 'melee monster' of an eidolon and focus on buffs in terms of spells.
Another summoner would have an eidolon that focused on skills, especially perception and disable device, but also some talking skills. He would take a higher int for the summoner and pump into skills, and take skill focus for important ones.
A third sommoner would focus on the more battlefield control spells in the summoner list, and give his eidolon a spell like abilities, maybe a breath weapon, and use reach grappling and tripping for crowd control.
The last summoner would take as many utility spells and spell like abilities as possible and both the summoner and eidolon would have max umd with cure wands, and eventually scrolls and staves of higher level healing and status removal spells.
Between them you have a pretty effective party. That flexibility is probably my favorite part of the summoner. Even just having a typical summoner opens up more possibilities for the rest of the party. Have 2 players that want to play a rogue and one that wants to play a bard? No problem, add in a summoner and you will mostly be ok.
Having no class capable of healing would worry me.
True, and the limitation on Spell-Like abilities makes it that much harder (although I've seen parties, most of what my players do actually, get by with very minimal healing). The best I can come up with so far have all summoners spend EP on any kind of Wiz/Sorc healing SLAs you can find, and as Kolokotroni says UMD to fill. UMD (+3 for Class choice, +8 Racial) for sure, and crafting to boot possibly using Master Craftsman. Wondrous (item) elixirs go down well in any party.
Summoners are a Charisma fronted class. They can take ranks in Use Magical Device (which is a class skill for them) or the Leadership feat and acquire a Cleric (or Bard - all those eidolons and summons around for buffing will get unpleasant) for basic healing.
That would normally be enough, but you have account for twice the amount of healing needed. Each Summoner is two characters in one, so that is twice the healing needed.
Of course, each Summoner in the group can take Leadership to gey a Cleric cohort...
A base healer would be well received in a (mostly) all Summoner group though.
Summoners are a Charisma fronted class. They can take ranks in Use Magical Device (which is a class skill for them) or the Leadership feat and acquire a Cleric (or Bard - all those eidolons and summons around for buffing will get unpleasant) for basic healing.
That would normally be enough, but you have account for twice the amount of healing needed. Each Summoner is two characters in one, so that is twice the healing needed.
Of course, each Summoner in the group can take Leadership to gey a Cleric cohort...
A base healer would be well received in a (mostly) all Summoner group though.
I believe in the treamonk school of thought on healing, preventing the damage is more effective then healing in combat. The 4 summoner party will need less healing because they will be more focused on removing the things doing the damage in the first place. After combat just spam the healing wands.
I believe in the treamonk school of thought on healing, preventing the damage is more effective then healing in combat. The 4 summoner party will need less healing because they will be more focused on removing the things doing the damage in the first place. After combat just spam the healing wands.
Who said anything about healing in combat?
The Summoner still takes twice as many healing resources than any other character, making them less efficient.
And "free" casting of healing is always more efficient than spamming healing wands, since an all Summoner group will need approximately twice the number of wands as another group.
I've begun turning my brain towards what a Summoner only party would look like.Unless you plan to make a Summoner only PbP, I'm going to consider you a tease.
Sure why not. Either one of the shorter modules or one of the mini-stand alones. I'll cross link here later in my local time afternoon. I'll hold a slot for you then Dragonborn3?
Draeke, it's the lower level heals that will be the issue more then higher levels. At the very least at higher levels the can get fast healing.
I also don't think there should be twice as much healing need. At a basic encounter assumption the should still be loosing as many HP as 4 person party, only the number 8 plus extra summoned creatures with basically temporary party Hp. The case where more healing would be needed is in cases of AoE attacks. So maybe 1.5 times the healing need if tactical conditions are unfavorable.
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Sure why not. Either one of the shorter modules or one of the mini-stand alones. I'll cross link here later in my local time afternoon. I'll hold a slot for you then Dragonborn3?I've begun turning my brain towards what a Summoner only party would look like.Unless you plan to make a Summoner only PbP, I'm going to consider you a tease.
I'd love to play.
As request cross-posting link to Summoner only play test game in Connections.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/connection/summonerPb PAtWhitePlumeMountainPathfinder
I'm of the school that if a class is well-designed, then a party composed entirely of that one class should be perfectly viable and effective.
That said, an all-Summoner party would be spectacular. They are, perhaps, the most powerful melee class in the game, what with the pat tentacular horror and dozen grizzly bears on speed dial, and have a lot of the most important combat spells, like Wall of Blah, Grease, Fly, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles.
For some of the incidental spells (Silent Image, Command Undead, etc.), wands and scrolls will do just fine, what with UMD being a class skill.
For the party? Primary melee is the summons. It's hard to top the melee presence of a band that can field a dozen grizzly bears in a single round. Two eidolons backing that up should be plenty. Probably a grounded grapple-monkey (who can take to the air via Fly if need be) and a flying pouncer, both as large as possible, and probably both with a large number of tentacles, maybe Favored Enemy: Japanese Schoolgirl. One of the other eidolons may take melee as well, but at least one needs to be a small, high-stealth/perception scout, with the latest supersense, possibly capping at Blindsense, allowing Master the ability to pinpoint and Glitterdust any invisible foes. The scope of the skill eidolon's job is such that it may be best for two eidolons to handle the job.
The summoners themselves won't have nearly so much variance, though it would probably be best for one of them to handle the task of party face; use Aspect and naturally high charisma to boost Diplomacy, with Aspect and decent wisdom to boost Sense Motive, and you should be more or less set. Maybe use half-elf to make up for Sense Motive not being a class skill. Other than that, it's mostly minor spell- and skill-coordination. Someone should probably take primary buffing duty. Get some extend rods for buffs. Make sure everyone has at least one really good battlefield control spell (aside from the innate summon). Maybe have an elf on the team with a side of archery. Really, an all-summoner team isn't that hard.
That would normally be enough, but you have account for twice the amount of healing needed. Each Summoner is two characters in one, so that is twice the healing needed.
That doesn't really stand up.
Case 1: A Paladin can kill a hill giant in two rounds. In the interim, the hill giant dishes out 27 damage, then dies.
Case 2: A Druid and her animal companion can kill a hill giant in two rounds. In the interim, the hill giant isn't suddenly getting twice as many attacks. The hill giant still dishes out 27 damage, then dies.
Either way, the amount of healing required doesn't change. And mind, a portion of your funds are expected to go towards expendables; it's just, in this case, that portion is for healing wands. However, picking up Fast Healing on the front-line eidolons and keeping summons closer to the fore should keep healing prices very low.
As request cross-posting link to Summoner only play test game in Connections.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/connection/summonerPb PAtWhitePlumeMountainPathfinder
I'm in. Sneaky eidolon is on its way.
That doesn't really stand up.
Case 1: A Paladin can kill a hill giant in two rounds. In the interim, the hill giant dishes out 27 damage, then dies.
Case 2: A Druid and her animal companion can kill a hill giant in two rounds. In the interim, the hill giant isn't suddenly getting twice as many attacks. The hill giant still dishes out 27 damage, then dies.
Either way, the amount of healing required doesn't change.
Sure it does.
If the Druid and Animal Companion split the damage (we'll make it 13 each, for simplicity) they each need 3 charges from a wand of Cure Light (assuming minimum caster level - average 5.5 hit points per charge). Where the Paladin only needs 5 average. An expenditure of at least more 1 charge, on average.
As the number of opponents increase, and the challenge approaches more appropriate levels, that value increases.
If the Druid and Animal Companion split the damage (we'll make it 13 each, for simplicity) they each need 3 charges from a wand of Cure Light (assuming minimum caster level - average 5.5 hit points per charge). Where the Paladin only needs 5 average. An expenditure of at least more 1 charge, on average.
Except you're assuming they heal to full for every little boo boo, which is just not a good idea. There's nothing wrong with starting off down three hit points. If you're using the wands sensibly and efficiently, there will be no difference. But even in the example you give, that's not even close to doubling the requisite healing.
I believe in the treamonk school of thought on healing, preventing the damage is more effective then healing in combat. The 4 summoner party will need less healing because they will be more focused on removing the things doing the damage in the first place. After combat just spam the healing wands.Who said anything about healing in combat?
The Summoner still takes twice as many healing resources than any other character, making them less efficient.
And "free" casting of healing is always more efficient than spamming healing wands, since an all Summoner group will need approximately twice the number of wands as another group.
I'm going to disagree and say that the summoner needs less healing, but even if I'm wrong here I'm still going to be right in the end. First off the the Eidolon however it's spelled, can be a huge flying charging creature with pounce and an incredible number of primary attacks, each attack dealing acid, fire, frost, and electric damage, power attacking and wearing an amulet of mighty fangs +5. In this regard, he's not going to have to heal much, because dead enemies don't fight back. If I'm wrong, you can equip him with fast healing, that doesn't take any party resources. If I'm wrong, you can summon things to heal you, you can summon things to heal you in battle and then kill your enemies. That is economy of actions, which the cleric does not have access to if it spends it's turns healing in action, and has to use up spell slots to do the same, not class features X/day.
Therefore my theory is that the summoner needs less healing, not more, than the typical character.
Also, and far more importantly, mind that a lot of the damage will be eaten by summons, that then disappear and don't need to be healed.
Except you're assuming they heal to full for every little boo boo, which is just not a good idea. There's nothing wrong with starting off down three hit points. If you're using the wands sensibly and efficiently, there will be no difference. But even in the example you give, that's not even close to doubling the requisite healing.
"In the example I give?" You're funny. In a not really kind of way.
Also, and far more importantly, mind that a lot of the damage will be eaten by summons, that then disappear and don't need to be healed.
I have to give this to you.
Back when Summoners could have more than one SLA active, and they lasted for minutes per level, they were far more likely to take up healing resources. There was much more of an incentive to keep the summons healthy.
"In the example I give?" You're funny. In a not really kind of way.
Well, you are the one posited the group that always heals to full every single time.
Back when Summoners could have more than one SLA active, and they lasted for minutes per level, they were far more likely to take up healing resources. There was much more of an incentive to keep the summons healthy.
Eh. Not really. Even at minutes/level, you're probably not going to get more than one or two encounters out of them. You're probably better off driving the first beast into the ground and summoning a new one than healing the first while its rather limited timer runs down.
Yeah, between full healing your Eidolon as a once per day ability (no healing needed for them at the end of the day essentially), expendable summoned creatures, fast healing evo's, and UMD + wands/staves/scrolls, I'm thinking the summoner is better off for healing than most other single class parties (probably better than any non-divine class).