Having just done extensive playtest for an (upcoming) article I can say that most of the times the party wins against a level 9 sorcerer or wizard. Using the exact same pregens.
If that is the case you and I play casters very differently, and I will simply accept your results as what will happen with your style of play. I should have a report on tuesday regarding the summoner as a pc. One of the bigger munchkins of our group is playing one so I hope it will provide some insight from the more extreme side of things.
If you want to be taken seriously use legit tactics.Tactics were legit, if you don't like the outcome of them......
Again, my playtest, my result. I fully expect that your playtest has the same result.
The previous posters said just about everything I would have said. There were multiple ways for the wizard to get away and/or take care of the invisible summoner. The same goes for the cleric. I am not the greatest strategist, but my casters always have an escape route, and invisibility won't be something I can't counter if I know you just turned invisible.
The results are not the issue, it was the fact that they could have been easily avoided. I think that is a better way to say it.
Thank you Darkjoy for your playtest. I found it quite interesting. I am sorry some find it better to attack your results than to discuss them. Please keep testing the summoner I am interested in seeing more of what you come up with.
It was not an attack. We just consider the tactics to be poor. Well ok, he was accused of rigging the playtest by one poster, but most people just think it was lopsided. I would have no issue donating one of my old NPC's or PC's* to him with instructions on how to use it, and it wont be a metagame issue because I have no idea what his next Eidolon will be.
*converted to Pathfinder of course.
PS: I am not the best builder, but I can out do a pregen. I just put that out there so I have an excuse when my build is laughed at if it's accepted.
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Another thing that neither of the casters did.
He started summoning things. The cleric never tried to detect alignment and the neither of the casters tried a protection spell, in most fights with humanoids in a real game you would have a pretty good hunch of their alignment. A protection spell up, the party wins or at worst the summoner escapes.
Hardly a win button - most things that you get through summon monster spells have SR. If he'd been using babau demons, for instance, they'd have had SR 17, which is fairly close to 50/50 in terms of whether the protection spell would have done anything at all.
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Several posts all but accused the guy of rigging the playtest to wipe the party. And then when he suggested folks go play their own and post it all they did was continue to rip apart the playtest. It looks like a lot of folks are scared to death of anything that shows the summoner in to good a light. I have news for you. The class will be in the book so calm down and yes, chances are it will be toned down a bit. If you were involved in any of the playtesting for the core you will notice a trend. They throw everything, including the kitchen sink at you and then some of it doesn't make it to the final book. My guess is the summoning will not be as over the top as it is now, but they won't know how far to move it, one way or the other, if you run everyone out of the boards who dares report a playtest.
You don't like his tactics. Fine we get that. Make your own playtest. It isn't hard. You can run all the characters yourself if you can't get anyone to play with you. Just make a party, make a summoner and his pet(s) and have at it.
There is a huge gulf between berating and discussing and I assure you that I am not the only one who feels like you are on the wrong side of that gulf.
Honestly,
I see the way the fight played out as being almost identical if you substituted a Druid with a big nasty animal companion wolf for A-Man and Dog. Or Sorcerer with a trained dog (using handle animal).
As soon as he was invisible, the 'summon as standard action' turns into 'spam summon as full action' and he can summon the exact same creatures (using summon nature's ally or summon monster) to attack the four party members.
I'm not invalidating the playtest, just pointing out that any CL 9 caster with summon monster could do the same thing and spam out a bunch of monsters to attack the party. That's sort of the idea of the spell, put a bunch of things out to attack people. I did it as a favored soul in a game, I'd spam celestial eagles to attack the bad guy, once I had 5 to 8 of those out there, he was taking as much damage from them as he was from the fighter, with less chance to take them down.
A conjurer focused wizard could do similar things with his summon monsters, honestly, after invisibling himself. Teleport to get out of the tentacles (teleport on top of the building, invisible, then spam summon monster every round while taking 5 foot steps on the roof).
I am going to run another playtest this evening. I plan on reworking my summoner and eidolon a little. Fire immunity is gone.
I am going to take Black Moria's suggestion and use average results for everything, so d20 result becomes 11, d12 becomes 7 etc. etc.
Encounter distance will still be 90 feet. There will be no cover, lots of bright light.
I haven't received a new set of 7th level PC's so I'll reuse the pregens.
Given that the initiative will likely be rogue, fighter, summoner, cleric, wizard. What will be the rogue's and fighter's best opening moves?
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Given that the initiative will likely be rogue, fighter, summoner, cleric, wizard. What will be the rogue's and fighter's best opening moves?
Flank the Wizard and take him out before he can do anything, if you have any attacks left then see if you can beat the cleric up a bit...
Then throw yourself at the mercy of the Summoner
:)
Several posts all but accused the guy of rigging the playtest to wipe the party. And then when he suggested folks go play their own and post it all they did was continue to rip apart the playtest. It looks like a lot of folks are scared to death of anything that shows the summoner in to good a light. I have news for you. The class will be in the book so calm down and yes, chances are it will be toned down a bit. If you were involved in any of the playtesting for the core you will notice a trend. They throw everything, including the kitchen sink at you and then some of it doesn't make it to the final book. My guess is the summoning will not be as over the top as it is now, but they won't know how far to move it, one way or the other, if you run everyone out of the boards who dares report a playtest.
You don't like his tactics. Fine we get that. Make your own playtest. It isn't hard. You can run all the characters yourself if you can't get anyone to play with you. Just make a party, make a summoner and his pet(s) and have at it.
There is a huge gulf between berating and discussing and I assure you that I am not the only one who feels like you are on the wrong side of that gulf.
Waves hand < obiwan voice > " Listen to this man"
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Okay so I ran a playtest last night using the pregens, I built a level 8 summoner so that it was a cr7 encounter and ran it in an inn map, which for the first few turns was filled with people who were in the way for lines of sight, getting attacked by summons, etc. Here's how it went down.
I played both sides as not wanting to go Nova, assuming both sides would attempt to conserve resources as long as the fight was not heavily one sided, if one side was obviously beating the other, then the loosers would go nova if there was no means of escape.
The only change I made to the pre-gen stats for the heroes was to substitute mage armor for shield in ezren's spells known, I find it ludicrous that he would prepare a spell know for a +1 gain in AC. And I didn't optimize either my summoner or my pet, the pet has DR, SR, and a bite for 2d6+6 plus poison, and has power attack.
Surprise round: Ezren is the only PC to notice the gnome performing a ritual across the crowded bar, and made his knowledge: arcana roll to identify it, so he was ready to react in the surprise round when monster appears in the middle of the room (I made the eidelon all about it's bite and it looks like an otyugh without any tentacles) Monster bites civilian killing it. Ezren tells party it was summoned by the gnome in the corner and casts shield.
Round 1: Merisiel being nuetral goes for the caster, double move across the bar and around the monster and the crowd, ends adjacent to the gnome. Valeros charges the beast and misses (trying to save civilians), Ezren cast haste on himself, Kyra, and Valeros (merisiel is out of range, and he couldn't use his area effect spells due to the crowd). the summoner 5ft steps back and casts his summons (since he doesn't know the strength of the heroes he summons 4 fiendish wolves 3 surrounding merisiel and one in a flanking position on valeros with the eidelon) One wolf manages to hit merisiel for a whoping 2 damage. The eidelon bites valeros for 22 damage valeros saves vs. poison. The crowd at this point attempts a mass exodus, one wolf AoO trips a guy and another kills a person, not everyone has a clear exit but 90% of the people escape via one of the 3 exits in the building. Kyra casts bull's strength on herself and closes with the monster.
Round 2: Merisiel can't 5ft step to the gnome because of the wolves and a table in her way, so instead she tumbles onto the top of the table and attacks the gnome hitting for 11 damage. Valeros full attacks the monster hitting twice out of 6 attacks and dealing about 20 damage total. would have been more but DR was cutting 5 damage off of every hit. Ezren not wanting the gnome to be casting but having no clear line of fire (to many allies, and enemies between him and the gnome) magic missiles the gnome for 14 damage and move to a position where he has a line of fire. The gnome now having lost about half his HP decides its a good time to go invisible, Merisiel has him pinned to a wall so he provokes an AoO to move to a clear area and casts greater invisibility. The eidelon misses Valeros, none of the wolves hit a PC, but the one that tripped a civilian with an AoO bites the prone civilian and he goes unconcious. Any bar patron still alive and concious manages to escape. Kyra provokes an AoO from the monster (rolled a 1) and cast cure moderate on the civilian fully healing him. Wolf couldn't attack her because it had used it's AoO up missing a fleeing civilian.
Round 3: Merisiel not seeing the gnome but knowing where he was last pulls out a thunderstone and targets the area that he was last seen, gnome fails his save and is deafened, luckily he has the silent spell feat. Valeros full attacks hitting three times for approximately 25 damage. Monster is hurt bad at this point only has 9hp left. Ezren cast glitterdust on the last place the gnome was standing, gnome makes save against blindness, but is visible again. Summoner decides (having clear access to the back door) that this fight has not gone in his favor and casts expeditious retreat (making the 20% spell failure) and runs out the back door. Monster bites Valeros dealing 24 damage (2d6+15 once power attack is added) Valeros fails his save. Kyra 5 ft steps and attacks eidelon and drops it.
So all in all Summoner wasn't as great, I didn't get a chance to cast reduce person mass or bear's endurance to up his eidelon's poison DC, and using the summons to summon a bunch of wolves turned out to be more of a detriment, but I felt it was in character. I'm gonna run it again tonight to see if different tactics lead to different results, but a non-optimized summoner is about right for the resource curve of its CR by my test. We'll see how it goes tonight.
You almost dropped Valeros then, 10-15 dmg more and he would have been toast.
How large was your inn area? Maybe it will be easier if I use a battlemap too this evening. I think I have a few, I'll dig one out and use it.
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You almost dropped Valeros then, 10-15 dmg more and he would have been toast.
How large was your inn area? Maybe it will be easier if I use a battlemap too this evening. I think I have a few, I'll dig one out and use it.
I used the one from paizo's Town map pack :)
For refrence I used the elite array 15 14 13 12 10 8 for my summoner, his feats were toughness, spell focus (transmutation), silent spell, and craft wand. Spells were greater invisibility, reduce person mass, dimensional anchor, bear's endurance, bull's strength, haste, summon swarm, grease, expeditious retreat, reduce person, enlarge person, shield, and ventriloquism.
The evolutions for the monster were, improved damage, poison, magic attacks, Damage Reduction, and spell resistance.
Feats were improved natural attack, ability focus (poison), power attack, and step up.
Several posts all but accused the guy of rigging the playtest to wipe the party. And then when he suggested folks go play their own and post it all they did was continue to rip apart the playtest. It looks like a lot of folks are scared to death of anything that shows the summoner in to good a light. I have news for you. The class will be in the book so calm down and yes, chances are it will be toned down a bit. If you were involved in any of the playtesting for the core you will notice a trend. They throw everything, including the kitchen sink at you and then some of it doesn't make it to the final book. My guess is the summoning will not be as over the top as it is now, but they won't know how far to move it, one way or the other, if you run everyone out of the boards who dares report a playtest.
You don't like his tactics. Fine we get that. Make your own playtest. It isn't hard. You can run all the characters yourself if you can't get anyone to play with you. Just make a party, make a summoner and his pet(s) and have at it.
There is a huge gulf between berating and discussing and I assure you that I am not the only one who feels like you are on the wrong side of that gulf.
Only one poster accused him of intentional rigging. The others just accused him of lopsided tactics, myself included. When you have been on a board such as this for more than a day, and you post your thoughts to the public people are going to respond. Everybody here knows that. That is one reason why my rejigged fighter has not been posted yet. I know it wont be perfect but I want it to be decent before releasing it into the wild.
We did not insult him. We just told how we would have done it. Disagreeing with someone does not equal an attack.
Several posts all but accused the guy of rigging the playtest to wipe the party. And then when he suggested folks go play their own and post it all they did was continue to rip apart the playtest. It looks like a lot of folks are scared to death of anything that shows the summoner in to good a light. I have news for you. The class will be in the book so calm down and yes, chances are it will be toned down a bit. If you were involved in any of the playtesting for the core you will notice a trend. They throw everything, including the kitchen sink at you and then some of it doesn't make it to the final book. My guess is the summoning will not be as over the top as it is now, but they won't know how far to move it, one way or the other, if you run everyone out of the boards who dares report a playtest.
You don't like his tactics. Fine we get that. Make your own playtest. It isn't hard. You can run all the characters yourself if you can't get anyone to play with you. Just make a party, make a summoner and his pet(s) and have at it.
There is a huge gulf between berating and discussing and I assure you that I am not the only one who feels like you are on the wrong side of that gulf.
Only one poster accused him of intentional rigging. The others just accused him of lopsided tactics, myself included. When you have been on a board such as this for more than a day, and you post your thoughts to the public people are going to respond. Everybody here knows that. That is one reason why my rejigged fighter has not been posted yet. I know it wont be perfect but I want it to be decent before releasing it into the wild.
We did not insult him. We just told how we would have done it. Disagreeing with someone not equal an attack.
Since it was my post that seems to have prompted the accused him of rigging it situation, I would like to apologize. When I said it seems they were set up to fail, i did not mean that he did so intentionally. Just that because of the way it was played it seemed the PC's didnt have a chance (hence, set up to fail).
Based on his further comments though, it is clear he and I have a very different playstyle when it comes to casters. So while i highly doubt i will get similar results, I expect that his playstyle has a good chance of repeating the effects given the situation. So like I said before, I accept his results of his playtest for his play style. And I apologize for being as aggressive about my disagreement as I was.
It wasn't you Kolokotroni.
New Dog
Large Quadropred eidolon
Free evolution: bite, limbs (2)
HP 84
F +10 R +8 W +2
Feats: toughness, improved natural attack (bite, claw, tentacle)
No skills allocated
Speed 40
Evolutions (13)
Large (3)
Claws (1)
Pounce (1)
Bite (1)
Tentacle x6 (1)
Improved damage bite (1)
S 26, D 15, C 18, I 7, W 10, C 11
Attacks:
Bite +16 (3d6+12)
2 claws +16 (1d8+8)
6 tentacles +14 (1d8+4)
BAB +8
CMB +17
CMD 29
New-Man – male human 9th level summoner
S 8, D 14, C 18, I 12, W 10, Ch 16
(used elite array: 15,14,13,12,10,8)
HP = 86
AC = 16 (chain shirt +dex)
Feats: toughness, improved initiative, great fortitude, lightning reflexes
Items: cloak of charisma +2
Fort +9 Ref +7 W +6
Spells known:
3 – black tentacles, greater invisibility, stoneskin, wall of fire
2 – barksin, slow, protection from arrows, bull’s strength, blur
1 – shield, enlarge person, reduce person, magic fang
If you truly wanted to make a fair play test you would pick a battle map before generating characters. Get 4 of your friends who are good players and tell them to make 7 level characters. Then you make your 9th level summoner and keep each other characters secret. Fight 2 battles. After first 2 battles let everybody remake their characters then try again since now they now what they are up against.
You are using simplistic pregen characters against a non pregen character and you know what those pregens have for abilities hardly seems fair.
I think there is another tactic that decidedly gives the 7th levels the advantage and that is ready to interrupt the summoner.
I am going to run another playtest this evening. I plan on reworking my summoner and eidolon a little. Fire immunity is gone.
I am going to take Black Moria's suggestion and use average results for everything, so d20 result becomes 11, d12 becomes 7 etc. etc.
Encounter distance will still be 90 feet. There will be no cover, lots of bright light.
I haven't received a new set of 7th level PC's so I'll reuse the pregens.
Given that the initiative will likely be rogue, fighter, summoner, cleric, wizard. What will be the rogue's and fighter's best opening moves?
I am going to run another playtest this evening. I plan on reworking my summoner and eidolon a little. Fire immunity is gone.
I am going to take Black Moria's suggestion and use average results for everything, so d20 result becomes 11, d12 becomes 7 etc. etc.
Encounter distance will still be 90 feet. There will be no cover, lots of bright light.
I haven't received a new set of 7th level PC's so I'll reuse the pregens.
Given that the initiative will likely be rogue, fighter, summoner, cleric, wizard. What will be the rogue's and fighter's best opening moves?
I specifically asked you what class you wanted from me, but never the less.
I adjust the playtest characters as follows
Kyra
Female human cleric 7 NG Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses Perception +6
Defense
AC 19, touch 10, fat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 shield)
hp 59 (7d8+21)
fort +8, Ref +3, Will +13
Offense
Speed 30 f.
Melee +2 scimitar +9 (1d6+4/18–20)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +6 (1d8+1/19–20)
Special Attacks channel positive energy (4d6, 4d6+7 vs. un-dead, DC 16, 7/day)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 7th)
4th—divine power, fire shield(D), restoration
3rd—bestow curse (DC 18), dispel magic, prayer,
invisibility purge(D) (DC 18)
2nd—bull’s strength, cure moderate wounds(D), silence,
lesser restoration, remove paralysis
1st—cure light wounds(D), bane (DC 16), bless, divine favor,
doom (DC 16), protection from evil
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, resistance, stabilize
D Domain spell; Domains Healing, Sun
Statistics
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 13
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 17
Feats:Channel Smite, Extra Channel, Improved Channel,
Iron Will, Selective Channeling
Skills: Diplomacy +7, Heal +15, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +7
Languages: Common
SQ aura, rebuke death (1d4+3, 7/day), healer’s blessing
Combat Gear potion of cure serious wounds (3); Other Gear
backpack, +2 chain shirt, cloak of resistance +1, headband
of inspired wisdom +2, +1 heavy wooden shield, silver holy
symbol, 50 gp
Valeros
Male human fighter 7
NG Medium humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +7
DefenSe
AC 23, touch 14, fat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 60 (7d10+14)
fort +8, Ref +7, Will +5; +2 vs. fear
Offense
Combat Options: Step up, Power Attack, Cleave, Vital Strike
Speed 30 f.; moves at normal speed in Medium or Heavy
armor
Melee +1 faming longsword +12/+7 (1d8+8/19–20 plus 1d6 fre)
Ranged shortbow +10 (1d6/[TS]3)
Statistics
Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 25
Feats: Step up, Iron Will, dodge, wpn spec(longsword), Power Attack
Cleave, Vital Strike
Skills Climb +11, Intimidate +10, Perception +6, Swim +6
Languages Common, Giant
SQ armor training +2, bravery +2, weapon training (heavy
blades +1)
Combat Gear alchemist’s fre, potion of cure moderate wounds;
Other Gear backpack, +1 chainmail, cloak of resistance +2,
+1 faming longsword, +1 frost shortsword, handy haversack,
shortbow with 20 arrows, silk rope, 30 gp
Merisiel
Female elf rogue 7
CN Medium humanoid (elf )
Init +9; Senses low-light vision; Perception +13
DefenSe
AC 22, touch 16, fat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +5 Dex, +1 dodge, +2
natural)
hp 45 (7d8+14)
fort +4, Ref +12, Will +5; +2 vs. enchantment spells and efects
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge;
Immune magical sleep effects
Offense
Speed 30 ft
Melee +2 rapier +10 (1d6+4/18–20)
Ranged dagger +10 (1d4/19–20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +4d6, surprise attack
Statistics
Str 15, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 23
Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Step Up, Weapon Finesse,
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Skills: Acrobatics +15, Bluf +10, Climb +12, Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +15, Intimidate +10, Perception +13, Sense Motive +7, Sleight of Hand +15, Stealth +15, Use Magic Device +4; Racial Modifer Perception +2
Languages Common, Elven
SQ trapfnding, stand up, weapon training
Combat Gear: Heavy Steel Shield, acid, alchemist’s fre (2), thunderstone; Other
Gear amulet of natural armor +2, backpack, cloak of resis-
tance +2, grappling hook, hooded lantern, +2 leather armor,
oil (5), silk rope, thieves’ tools, 50 gp
PS: They gave her that attack bonus as if she had weapon finesse, but she did not, so I gave the feat, and took away toughness so the attack bonus would be correct.
ezren Male human wizard 7 NG Medium humanoid
Init +0; Senses Perception +9
DefenSe
AC 13, touch 10, fat-footed 13 (+3 armor)
hp 44 (7d6+14)
fort +6, Ref +3, Will +8
OffenSe
Speed 30 f.
Melee club +3 (1d6)
Ranged light crossbow +3 (1d8/19–20)
Special Attacks hand of the apprentice (7/day, +8 ranged)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 7th)
4th—black tentacles, dimension door
3rd—dispel magic, fireball (DC 20), haste, slow
2nd—invisibility, glitterdust (DC 17), web(DC 19), enlarge person
1st—cause fear (DC 16), mage armor, grease (DC 16), sleep (DC 16), color spray (DC 16)
0 (at will)—acid splash (DC 15), detect magic, disrupt undead
(DC 15), light
Statistics
Str 11, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 17
feats Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Great Fortitude,
Defensive Combat Training, Silent Spell, Spell Focus
(evocation), Still Spell
Skills: Diplomacy +7, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge
(geography) +15, Knowledge (history) +15, Knowledge (local)
+15, Perception +9, Spellcraf +15
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Goblin
SQ arcane bond (cane), cantrips, spellbook (contains all PRPG
cantrips and prepared spells as well as acid arrow, burning
hands, detect undead, lightning bolt, obscuring mist, shield,
shocking grasp, and web)
Combat Gear alchemist’s fire (2), potion of cure moderate
wounds, scroll of burning hands, wand of magic missile (CL
1st, 50 charges); Other Gear backpack, bracers of armor +3,
cane (as club), cloak of resistance +1, dagger, light crossbow
and 20 bolts, pearl of power (1st), pearl of power (2, 2nd),
scroll case, spell component pouch, spellbook, 50 gp
The wizards should open up with battlefield controlling or buffing spells for the fighter, not for himself. The fighter should be hasted*, and the rogue should follow him into combat to get the flank. The cleric can cast silence on the fighter weapon to stop any opposing bad guys from casting spells. I really hate silence, when its used against me. The cleric casting bull's strength on the fighter wont hurt either. From there let the battle dictate the spells.
*This assumes that a better tactic is not available.
The wizards should open up with battlefield controlling or buffing spells for the fighter, not for himself. The fighter should be hasted*, and the rogue should follow him into combat to get the flank. The cleric can cast silence on the fighter weapon to stop any opposing bad guys from casting spells. I really hate silence, when its used against me. The cleric casting bull's strength on the fighter wont hurt either. From there let the battle dictate the spells.
*This assumes that a better tactic is not available.
The wizard should be built to go first. I would switch wis for dex improve init and change a few spells. like fear and sleep, add enfeeble ment and magic missle Wizard should slow or glitterbust. Both really bad for summoner and dog.
Cleric should have dismissal and basically the dog has no chance to save so he is gone round 1 unless summoner can disable her or makes very lucky save.
The fighter and rogue should both ready bows to interrupt the summoners spells and spell like abilities since they are 90' away. With his low ac and low concentration chances are he is going to lose the spell or sp if either of them hit him.
If played right The summoner really needs to win init or make lucky saves or it is pretty much over first round.
This is an average result on every roll playtest: d20 =11 d12=7 etc etc
Initiative
Rogue
Fighter
Summoner
Cleric
Wizard
Round one
Rogue and Fighter move 60 feet closer to Summoner.
Summoner casts Wall of fire in front of the rogue and fighter, creating a barrier 180 ft long and dealing 5 dmg each.
Cleric moves 30 feet forward and casts bless.
Wizards moves 30 feet and casts haste upon the entire party
Round two
Rogue and Fighter double move around the wall of fire, end up at 40 feet distance from newman and newdog.
Summoners summons babau demon which attacks and hits the rogue with spear for 12 dmg.
Newdog pounces fighter. Full attack is full attack and 9 attacks later the fighter is dead.
Cleric casts fireshield and moves through wall of fire
Wizard dimension doors forward 200 feet.
Round 3
Rogue moves to summoners, get aoo from babau, receives another 12 dmg. Attacks summoner and deals 6 dmg.
Summoners takes a 5ft step and casts stoneskin.
New dog pounces cleric. New dog kills the cleric but fireshield kills new dog.
Wizard casts black tentacles at summoner and catches him.
Round 4
Rogue flees from babau (low hp)
Babau dispels black tentacles
Wizard moves up and casts scorching ray at summoner for 28 dmg.
Round 5
Summoner summons another babau?
--end playtest--
The ony thing that I find questionable is if fireshield damages you per attack. Maybe pouncing the rogue would have been better.
Using average rolls doesn't really help the playtest, it kills PCs fsater.
This is an average result on every roll playtest: d20 =11 d12=7 etc etc
Initiative
Rogue
Fighter
Summoner
Cleric
WizardRound one
Rogue and Fighter move 60 feet closer to Summoner.
Summoner casts Wall of fire in front of the rogue and fighter, creating a barrier 180 ft long and dealing 5 dmg each.
Cleric moves 30 feet forward and casts bless.
Wizards moves 30 feet and casts haste upon the entire partyRound two
Rogue and Fighter double move around the wall of fire, end up at 40 feet distance from newman and newdog.
Summoners summons babau demon which attacks and hits the rogue with spear for 12 dmg.
Newdog pounces fighter. Full attack is full attack and 9 attacks later the fighter is dead.
Cleric casts fireshield and moves through wall of fire
Wizard dimension doors forward 200 feet.Round 3
Rogue moves to summoners, get aoo from babau, receives another 12 dmg. Attacks summoner and deals 6 dmg.
Summoners takes a 5ft step and casts stoneskin.
New dog pounces cleric. New dog kills the cleric but fireshield kills new dog.
Wizard casts black tentacles at summoner and catches him.Round 4
Rogue flees from babau (low hp)
Babau dispels black tentacles
Wizard moves up and casts scorching ray at summoner for 28 dmg.Round 5
Summoner summons another babau?
--end playtest--
The ony thing that I find questionable is if fireshield damages you per attack. Maybe pouncing the rogue would have been better.
Using average rolls doesn't really help the playtest, it kills PCs fsater.
anyone can make up a fictional encounter with bad tactics that allows the summoner to win.
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This is an average result on every roll playtest: d20 =11 d12=7 etc etc
Initiative
Rogue
Fighter
Summoner
Cleric
WizardRound one
Rogue and Fighter move 60 feet closer to Summoner.
Summoner casts Wall of fire in front of the rogue and fighter, creating a barrier 180 ft long and dealing 5 dmg each.
Cleric moves 30 feet forward and casts bless.
Wizards moves 30 feet and casts haste upon the entire partyRound two
Rogue and Fighter double move around the wall of fire, end up at 40 feet distance from newman and newdog.
Summoners summons babau demon which attacks and hits the rogue with spear for 12 dmg.
Newdog pounces fighter. Full attack is full attack and 9 attacks later the fighter is dead.
Cleric casts fireshield and moves through wall of fire
Wizard dimension doors forward 200 feet.Round 3
Rogue moves to summoners, get aoo from babau, receives another 12 dmg. Attacks summoner and deals 6 dmg.
Summoners takes a 5ft step and casts stoneskin.
New dog pounces cleric. New dog kills the cleric but fireshield kills new dog.
Wizard casts black tentacles at summoner and catches him.Round 4
Rogue flees from babau (low hp)
Babau dispels black tentacles
Wizard moves up and casts scorching ray at summoner for 28 dmg.Round 5
Summoner summons another babau?
--end playtest--
The ony thing that I find questionable is if fireshield damages you per attack. Maybe pouncing the rogue would have been better.
Using average rolls doesn't really help the playtest, it kills PCs fsater.
Really honestly dispel magic is on the wizards spells known, he should have moved up and dispelled the wall of fire first round, then the fighter and rouge would have closed with the summoner on the second round. Casting haste earlier meant that the team had more time where they let the spellcaster do his thing and nobody would want that.
Then second round he could cast haste on the party, would you mind trying out what happens that way?
This is an average result on every roll playtest: d20 =11 d12=7 etc etc
Initiative
Rogue
Fighter
Summoner
Cleric
WizardRound one
Rogue and Fighter move 60 feet closer to Summoner.
Summoner casts Wall of fire in front of the rogue and fighter, creating a barrier 180 ft long and dealing 5 dmg each.
Cleric moves 30 feet forward and casts bless.
Wizards moves 30 feet and casts haste upon the entire partyRound two
Rogue and Fighter double move around the wall of fire, end up at 40 feet distance from newman and newdog.
Summoners summons babau demon which attacks and hits the rogue with spear for 12 dmg.
Newdog pounces fighter. Full attack is full attack and 9 attacks later the fighter is dead.
Cleric casts fireshield and moves through wall of fire
Wizard dimension doors forward 200 feet.Round 3
Rogue moves to summoners, get aoo from babau, receives another 12 dmg. Attacks summoner and deals 6 dmg.
Summoners takes a 5ft step and casts stoneskin.
New dog pounces cleric. New dog kills the cleric but fireshield kills new dog.
Wizard casts black tentacles at summoner and catches him.Round 4
Rogue flees from babau (low hp)
Babau dispels black tentacles
Wizard moves up and casts scorching ray at summoner for 28 dmg.Round 5
Summoner summons another babau?
--end playtest--
The ony thing that I find questionable is if fireshield damages you per attack. Maybe pouncing the rogue would have been better.
Using average rolls doesn't really help the playtest, it kills PCs fsater.
The only thing i would say is you forgot about PC ability to run assuming a straight line (in the first round), and you make wall of fire alot better then it is by refusing to move characters through it. Essentially it gave the summoner 2 rounds to prepare for the party. And I think even though this is just an 'average roll' playtest it shows the summoner is very deadly if given time to prepare for a fight.
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The only thing i would say is you forgot about PC ability to run assuming a straight line (in the first round), and you make wall of fire alot better then it is by refusing to move characters through it. Essentially it gave the summoner 2 rounds to prepare for the party. And I think even though this is just an 'average roll' playtest it shows the summoner is very deadly if given time to prepare for a fight.
Dude no-one in real life is running through a 15ft wide wall of fire, it just ain't happening, I'm sorry. I know this is fantasy and all, but that's just taking it to far, if they had fire resistance going I could see it maybe but nobody runs through a wall of fire 15ft wide willingly.
and just for the record I am not advocating the summoner is not a little over powered. It has a few issues I just think your fantasy mock up one sided battles have very little play test value because some of the other classes can destroy the same party with the tactics you use.
I think you would be better served comparing Druid animal companions to the Edilon or comparing wizard summons monsters to summoners sumons monsters to prove your point.
I do think your new dog build is pretty strong and would blow away a druids animal companion. It does show that tentacles are bought too cheap and they should cost 2x as much. There is also other evolution that are way too cheap for what they give. Like the energy evolution you could have given that to your dog and got an addition 1d6 acid damage on all your attacks.
The only thing i would say is you forgot about PC ability to run assuming a straight line (in the first round), and you make wall of fire alot better then it is by refusing to move characters through it. Essentially it gave the summoner 2 rounds to prepare for the party. And I think even though this is just an 'average roll' playtest it shows the summoner is very deadly if given time to prepare for a fight.Dude no-one in real life is running through a 15ft wide wall of fire, it just ain't happening, I'm sorry. I know this is fantasy and all, but that's just taking it to far, if they had fire resistance going I could see it maybe but nobody runs through a wall of fire 15ft wide willingly.
Wall of fire?? First round the Fighter and Rogue both could have run before the summoner went and flanked him. Unless he precast wall of fire before the fight.
Average rolls, so 11+7= 18, Dispel DC to beat is 20 (11+9).
Running towards the summoner, ok. cast wall of fire, separates party new dog pounces and it is already over for the rogue or fighter.
I only got off 1 summon monster V.
Basicly, you can create an anti-summoner party to beat new man and new dog. I'd say: go for it, get your optimizing friends and see if they beat this summoner.
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Wall of fire?? First round the Fighter and Rogue both could have run before the summoner went and flanked him. Unless he precast wall of fire before the fight.The only thing i would say is you forgot about PC ability to run assuming a straight line (in the first round), and you make wall of fire alot better then it is by refusing to move characters through it. Essentially it gave the summoner 2 rounds to prepare for the party. And I think even though this is just an 'average roll' playtest it shows the summoner is very deadly if given time to prepare for a fight.Dude no-one in real life is running through a 15ft wide wall of fire, it just ain't happening, I'm sorry. I know this is fantasy and all, but that's just taking it to far, if they had fire resistance going I could see it maybe but nobody runs through a wall of fire 15ft wide willingly.
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that there has to be some level of okay that's too much and having a guy willingly charge through 15 feet of really hot flames feeling your flesh litterally singe and burn, actually it might not hurt after about 5feet because all the nerve endings in your flesh have been burned off, oh don't forget the joy that once you're on the other side you'll literally be able to just scrape your burnt skin exposing raw flesh underneath, but I just don't buy it at all that someone would do that to themselves willingly.
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Average rolls, so 11+7= 18, Dispel DC to beat is 20 (11+9).
Running towards the summoner, ok. cast wall of fire, separates party new dog pounces and it is already over for the rogue or fighter.
I only got off 1 summon monster V.
Basicly, you can create an anti-summoner party to beat new man and new dog. I'd say: go for it, get your optimizing friends and see if they beat this summoner.
So what if Valeros had readied an action to shoot the summoner with his bow if he cast a spell? While mesirial closed.
So what if Valeros had readied an action to shoot the summoner with his bow if he cast a spell? While mesirial closed.
Valeros hits the summoner and deals 4 dmg with his shortbow. I still easily make that concentration check? Merisiel is now alone and cut off. New dog pounces her. Merisiel is dead.
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Full run first round to flank, good luck five foot stepping out to cast. If wall of fire goes off he is still taking a full attack from either rogue or fighter (whichever the summon doesn´t kill). And then the wizard and cleric can cast whatever they want. Like for example slow (goodbye pounce). And cleric dispells wall of fire.
Or even better tactic, let the summoner go ahead and cast his wall of fire first round, veveryone delays untill the cleric dispells it and the wizard slows eveyone. Second round rogue and fighter full run in to flanking possition. No pounce no instant death. One summon monster or defensve spell goes off (if lucky) and then rogue and fighter go to town.
This is not a party designed to kill a summoner, just being poorly used really.
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Oh and I think it's been thoroughly proven in multiple threads that the stat boost for size increase need to be limited. We made then smaller for AnCo's we need to keep them reduced for Eidelons as well. I want to be able to go to large and huge size, but a +8 increase in str for each boost is too much.
Take as a comparison trying to boost your str with ability boost, If you pay just one more evo point you get +4 more str, to get that same boost with ability increase it would cost you 8 evo points and you'd have to be level 18 to get it. And large size also gives you +4 con, and the only drawback is a -2 to dex. So you can either pay 2 points for an effective +2 or pay 3 points for an effective +10 to your combat stats, the comparison is ludicrous.
I think large size increase needs to provide a +2 to strength +2 to con and -2 to dex and a +1 to nat armor, that way your effective stat boost is = to the points you paid for it, 3 points for +3 total and you get stat mods and defecits to the appropriate abilities.
Huge should do the exact same. granted then your paying more points than you get boosted, but yo get the advantages of huge size.
Full run first round to flank, good luck five foot stepping out to cast. If wall of fire goes off he is still taking a full attack from either rogue or fighter (whichever the summon doesn´t kill). And then the wizard and cleric can cast whatever they want. Like for example slow (goodbye pounce). And cleric dispells wall of fire.
Or even better tactic, let the summoner go ahead and cast his wall of fire first round, veveryone delays untill the cleric dispells it and the wizard slows eveyone. Second round rogue and fighter full run in to flanking possition. No pounce no instant death. One summon monster or defensve spell goes off (if lucky) and then rogue and fighter go to town.
This is not a party designed to kill a summoner, just being poorly used really.
You full run to flank the summoner. summoner moves 30 feet and casts wall of fire. I gladly accept you AoO's. New dog kills the rogue. Next round the fighter may try to kill new dog or may attack the summoner once. If he chooses the dog and doesn't kill him he is dead on the dogs turn. If he chooses the summoner then the dog pounces and the fighter is dead.
Everyone delays, I cast black tentacles. cleric and wizard are out of the game.
In a one fight event melee classes get boned. One of their biggest strengths is their long term fighting ability over the entire day. This also takes away one of the biggest weakness of casters, not having to use spells sparingly. One fight playtests... now so balanced to begin with.
Yeah those two spells that I used and that 1 summon monster V took all I got......
I think this is straying a bit from play testing... Could you maybe get somebody else to run the opposing mobs and see how it goes. We are getting dangerously close to "my dad can beat up your dad". I think you are on to something with using average rolls, but it is opening you up to tactical criticism.