Also, since the summon monster nerf I have yet to use it again. full round is too long?
definitely if the summoner is on his own. maybe give him the ability to rapid some of his summons ( like my suggested rapid spelllike ability feat)
Also, since the summon monster nerf I have yet to use it again. full round is too long?definitely if the summoner is on his own. maybe give him the ability to rapid some of his summons ( like my suggested rapid spelllike ability feat)
i wouldnt mind a feat, but there should be some extra commitment of resources for that.
i wouldnt mind a feat, but there should be some extra commitment of resources for that.Also, since the summon monster nerf I have yet to use it again. full round is too long?definitely if the summoner is on his own. maybe give him the ability to rapid some of his summons ( like my suggested rapid spelllike ability feat)
the feat would be only 3/day and it would cost you a feat. (maybe 1 Preq.)
the feat would be only 3/day and it would cost you a feat. (maybe 1 Preq.)i wouldnt mind a feat, but there should be some extra commitment of resources for that.Also, since the summon monster nerf I have yet to use it again. full round is too long?definitely if the summoner is on his own. maybe give him the ability to rapid some of his summons ( like my suggested rapid spelllike ability feat)
That would be fair I think. Sometimes you need to get something, anything out there fighting for you and a full round means that the rogue jumps through a wall of fire and stabs you, ruining it all.
HAH! We ran out of battlemat, not quite the same thing ;>
But it is good to note that the summoner has no direct damage spells and sometimes you really want it. The summoner and eidolon survived the encounter, but Azmahel did spent quite a lot of resources to make them retreat. I'd say at least 25% of party resources.
It's an EL9 counter for a 7th level party. They should be spending quite a lot of their resources.
things i did spend:
Wizard: 3/4 possible level 4 spells and 1 lvl 2 spell
Cleric 1 level 4 and 2 level 3 spells and 1 channel energy
Fighter/rogue 1 arrow and a few HP
rogue + 1 thunderstone
It's an EL9 counter for a 7th level party. They should be spending quite a lot of their resources.
Only EL8, I think? Summoner didn't have PC wealth. (Slightly over NPC tho... meh, it's somwhere in there!)
It's an EL9 counter for a 7th level party. They should be spending quite a lot of their resources.Only EL8, I think? Summoner didn't have PC wealth. (Slightly over NPC tho... meh, it's somwhere in there!)
wand of scorching ray - 4500 gp
wand of acid arrow - 4500 gpcloak of resistance +1 - 1000 gp
Belt of Mighty +2 - 4000
Brooch of shielding - 750 gp
Headband of alluring charisma +2 - 4000 gp
+1 morningstar - 2000 gp
+1 chain shirt - 1000 gp
lots of diamond dust
is at least: 22000 GP (1 dose of diamond dust for stoneskin) so nearly triple NPC wealth (or double for heroic tier)
Oh... I misunderstood a post by Darkjoy above saying he was going to use 7500. He must have meant per-item max, not total.
Could have settled for the cloak and belt.
Didn't even get to use the rest.
i've just compiled all my thoughts and playtest results regarding the Summoner.
your feedback will be much apreciated
Ok, i think we can say that a sensible summoner is fairly ... balanced.
But what fpr the insensible approaches. Darkjoy, if you are in for a third round. I challange you to build the most horrible Pc-Killing machine you can think of ( still level 9 and following all the rules) and we will see how well this average group of adventurer will fare against the worst the Summoner has to offer.
I will be ready for that tommorow.
Kill and destroy!
By the way, if I had used me excess attacks and damage to hurt your rogue I think the outcome of match #1 would have been different. I wasted 40 points on valeros' dead body ;>
possible. the rogue was my greatest asset in that one.
but if you didn't crit those two saving throws .... :)
I don't have a lot of time today but the thing that will kill your party is this.
Snakey
N Large outsider
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
Defense
AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 19 ( +4 Dex, +10 natural, –1 size, +1 dodge)
hp 84 (8d10+40)
Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +6 (+10 vs enchantment)
Evasion; Resist fire 10
Offense
Speed 20 ft.
Melee bite +14 (1d8+6 + trip), mw morningstar +13 (2d6+6), 3 mw morningstars +9 (2d6+3), tail slap +12 (1d8+3), 2 tentacles +12 (1d6+3)
Ranged 2 mw light crossbows +13 (2d6/19-20x2) or 1 mw light crossbow +9 (2d6/19-20x2), 3 mw light crossbows +5 (2d6/19-20x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (5-feet with bite and tentacles)
Special Attacks Trip +15
Statistics
Str 23, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multi Attack (bonus), Toughness
Skills Bluff +8, Knowledge (the planes) +6, Perception +8, Stealth +8
Gear:
4 mw morningstars
4 mw light crossbows
bolts
Serpentine
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20
ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will
(good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str
12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions
bite, climb, tail, tail slap.
Limbs (arms) x2 = 4
Weapontraining = 1
Large =3
Reach arms = 1
Trip = 1
Tentaclex2 = 2
Resistance fire = 1
the way i read the reach evolution, you can't apply it to your arms ( attack only).
Also most your attacks seem to be off ( forgot size modifier, miscalculated two-Weapon fighting ? )
your attacks should be something like this:
melee: 1 mw morningstar +10/+5 3 mw morningstars +10 (2d6+6), bite +11 (1d8+3+trip) ,tail slap +11 (1d8+3) and 2 tentacles +11 (1d6+3)
ranged: 2 mw light crossbows +10 ( 2d6/19-20) or 4 mw light crossbows +8 (2d6/19-20).
this thing looks dangerous, but mainly because of the good weapon dice, good Ref and will saves. If used in the right way i'm not sure if i can beat this
Edit: also your CMD is 30. Dodge bonuses also apply to CMD
the way i read the reach evolution, you can't apply it to your arms ( attack only).
Also most your attacks seem to be off ( forgot size modifier, miscalculated two-Weapon fighting ? )
your attacks should be something like this:melee: 4 mw morningstars +10 (2d6+6), bite +11 (1d8+3+trip) ,tail slap +11 (1d8+3) and 2 tentacles +11 (1d6+3)
ranged: 2 mw light crossbows +10 ( 2d6/19-20) or 4 mw light crossbows +8 (2d6/19-20).this thing looks dangerous, but mainly because of the good weapon dice, good Ref and will saves. If used in the right way i'm not sure if i can beat this
It is not two-weapon fighting but multiweapon fighting, because I have 4 arms. I think you are right about the size modifier. I can see that accoridng to RAW you are right about reach, it is not an attack.
I'll rework the stats and bump up the values due to size and find a use for my evolution point.
multiweapon fighting gives the same penalties as two weapon fighting.
also your CMD is 30 (dodge bonuses also apply to CMD)
Also i would be fine with your Arms having reach, i just don't know if it's legal.
Bumped up the AC, just to keep it RAW. Because each pair of arms only uses one l x-bow I kept the bonus for single fire.
Snakey
N Large outsider
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
Defense
AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 21 ( +4 Dex, +12 natural, –1 size, +1 dodge)
hp 84 (8d10+40)
Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +6 (+10 vs enchantment)
Evasion; Resist fire 10
Offense
Speed 20 ft. Climb 20 ft.
Melee mw morningstar +10/+5 (2d6+6), 3 mw morningstars +10 (2d6+3), bite +11 (1d8+6 + trip), tail slap +11 (1d8+3), 2 tentacles +11 (1d6+3)
Ranged 2 mw light crossbows +12 (2d6/19-20x2) or 1 mw light crossbow +6 (2d6/19-20x2), 3 mw light crossbows +6 (2d6/19-20x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Trip +15
Statistics
Str 23, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 30
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Multi Attack (bonus), Toughness
Skills Bluff +8, Knowledge (the planes) +6, Perception +8, Stealth +8
Gear:
4 mw morningstars
4 mw light crossbows
bolts
Serpentine
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20
ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will
(good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str
12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions
bite, climb, tail, tail slap.
Limbs (arms) x2 = 4
Weapontraining = 1
Large =3
Trip = 1
Tentaclex2 = 2
Resistance fire = 1
Improved natural armor = 1
ok, one last glance:
FF AC should be 21
your 1st morningstar has a second attack at +5
Bite does only +3 dmg ( all natural attacks deal only +1/2 Str if used with Weapons)
the case with the x-bows is not 100% clear, but based on this reference
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
I would say that if using 4 hands to fire 2 crossbows you suffer the normal 2-weapon-fighting penalties but not the penalties for one hand firing.
I would say that if using 4 hands to fire 2 crossbows you suffer the normal 2-weapon-fighting penalties but not the penalties for one hand firing.
This is somewhat muddled in my view. I can see why you'd say that (and I've considered it too), but two sets of arms makes this go into the twilight zone.
All this mixing of natural and weapon attacks is going to be crazy.
i'm tready to start, if only on the sideline for today ( other boring stuff to do)
which will be our battlefield for this?
ok, one last glance:
FF AC should be 21
your 1st morningstar has a second attack at +5
Bite does only +3 dmg ( all natural attacks deal only +1/2 Str if used with Weapons)the case with the x-bows is not 100% clear, but based on this reference
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.I would say that if using 4 hands to fire 2 crossbows you suffer the normal 2-weapon-fighting penalties but not the penalties for one hand firing.
I would agree here, it isnt about the amount of arms used to hold the weapon, it is the division of focus for using more then one weapon at a time that invokes the difficulty. I would personally say if you are using 2 hands you dont have to worry about the weapon being light, but you still get a 2weapon penalty for more then one weapon.
Hey Darkjoy, any interest in seeing how a Druid of the same level compares in your playtest? Just a thought but perhaps putting a level 9 druid head to head with your summoner might be an interesting comparison.
Hey Darkjoy, any interest in seeing how a Druid of the same level compares in your playtest? Just a thought but perhaps putting a level 9 druid head to head with your summoner might be an interesting comparison.
Uuh . nice idea. a big cat companion shouldn't be too far below an Mr. Pouncy Eidolon, and the druid has Wildshape to be large or huge and pouncing too. plus a better (at least more agressive) spell list.
Hey Darkjoy, any interest in seeing how a Druid of the same level compares in your playtest? Just a thought but perhaps putting a level 9 druid head to head with your summoner might be an interesting comparison.Uuh . nice idea. a big cat companion shouldn't be too far below an Mr. Pouncy Eidolon, and the druid has Wildshape to be large or huge and pouncing too. plus a better (at least more agressive) spell list.
Thats what I was thinking. Heres an existing class with comparable abilities, how to they shape up against eachother?
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i'm tready to start, if only on the sideline for today ( other boring stuff to do)
which will be our battlefield for this?
As a side note, any pc class specifically designed around killing players could have a fair chance of killing the average adventuring party. This test would be better if the summoner was completely optimized and the adventuring group were likewise optimized. They you could see if the upper bounds on the character classes was equivalent.
i had exactly that in mind for some time now. maybe i will do an in depht analysis of the two classes. but first lets settle this the only true way man knows- with bloody slaughter :D
As a side note, any pc class specifically designed around killing players could have a fair chance of killing the average adventuring party. This test would be better if the summoner was completely optimized and the adventuring group were likewise optimized. They you could see if the upper bounds on the character classes was equivalent.i'm tready to start, if only on the sideline for today ( other boring stuff to do)
which will be our battlefield for this?
This is the expected outcome. But i think i see a pretty fair chance of survial for the party, which would mean that even if specifically build to kill a known party the summoner would be in no way overpowered.
Also i like the challenge of this situation. Winning is twice the fun if everybody expects you to loose :D
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As a side note, any pc class specifically designed around killing players could have a fair chance of killing the average adventuring party. This test would be better if the summoner was completely optimized and the adventuring group were likewise optimized. They you could see if the upper bounds on the character classes was equivalent.i'm tready to start, if only on the sideline for today ( other boring stuff to do)
which will be our battlefield for this?This is the expected outcome. But i think i see a pretty fair chance of survial for the party, which would mean that even if specifically build to kill a known party the summoner would be in no way overpowered.
Also i like the challenge of this situation. Winning is twice the fun if everybody expects you to loose :D
I don't know if you're interested in trying it... but if the Summoner takes 1 level of druid with the Boon Companion feat he gets a lvl 5 Animal Companion in addition to his eidolon. I've been wondering if it would be overpowered or not... I am pretty sure at lvl 5 ( druid 1/summoner 4 ) it would be. I won't be able to test it for quite some time unfortunately.
this would mean that the eidolon would use Multiattack ( i think the sole reason lvl 9 was selected for the playtest) and 2 Poins of evolutions.
as well as access to summon Monster 5 and 1 level 3 spell.
all that mostly for an animal companion that is way worse than an dire Lion ( summon Monster 5).
it is a powerful combination up to level 5, and loosing rapidly thereafter
this would mean that the eidolon would use Multiattack ( i think the sole reason lvl 9 was selected for the playtest) and 2 Poins of evolutions.
as well as access to summon Monster 5 and 1 level 3 spell.
all that mostly for an animal companion that is way worse than an dire Lion ( summon Monster 5).
it is a powerful combination up to level 5, and loosing rapidly thereafter
Level 9 was chosen because I had the level 7 pregens from an earlier playtest.
You are right about the twf for the crossbows.
Let's use the other battlemap as provided by Fake Healer.
Battle will couple take a few days, busy for the coming days.
same with me. :) but no reason not to get it started :)
Already set it up, waiting for your input.
input done , was cooking
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this would mean that the eidolon would use Multiattack ( i think the sole reason lvl 9 was selected for the playtest) and 2 Poins of evolutions.
as well as access to summon Monster 5 and 1 level 3 spell.
all that mostly for an animal companion that is way worse than an dire Lion ( summon Monster 5).
it is a powerful combination up to level 5, and loosing rapidly thereafter
Just found a thread where, at least for Organized Play, Eidolons are Animal Companions. So, a summoner 5/ Druid 4 with Boon Companion( Eidolon ) and Boon Companion( Animal Companion ) would have a lvl 9 Eidolon and a lvl 8 Animal Companion. I am sure it trails off after that( again ), but that is still rather impressive.
Edit: Sited Post
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this would mean that the eidolon would use Multiattack ( i think the sole reason lvl 9 was selected for the playtest) and 2 Poins of evolutions.
as well as access to summon Monster 5 and 1 level 3 spell.
all that mostly for an animal companion that is way worse than an dire Lion ( summon Monster 5).
it is a powerful combination up to level 5, and loosing rapidly thereafterJust found a thread where, at least for Organized Play, Eidolons are Animal Companions. So, a summoner 5/ Druid 4 with Boon Companion( Eidolon ) and Boon Companion( Animal Companion ) would have a lvl 9 Eidolon and a lvl 8 Animal Companion. I am sure it trails off after that( again ), but that is still rather impressive.
Edit: Sited Post
I think that he meant that for the purposes of answering the OPs question, not for eidelons in general.
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I think that he meant that for the purposes of answering the OPs question, not for eidelons in general.this would mean that the eidolon would use Multiattack ( i think the sole reason lvl 9 was selected for the playtest) and 2 Poins of evolutions.
as well as access to summon Monster 5 and 1 level 3 spell.
all that mostly for an animal companion that is way worse than an dire Lion ( summon Monster 5).
it is a powerful combination up to level 5, and loosing rapidly thereafterJust found a thread where, at least for Organized Play, Eidolons are Animal Companions. So, a summoner 5/ Druid 4 with Boon Companion( Eidolon ) and Boon Companion( Animal Companion ) would have a lvl 9 Eidolon and a lvl 8 Animal Companion. I am sure it trails off after that( again ), but that is still rather impressive.
Edit: Sited Post
I don't think he'd make such a broad statement if it was only in regards to the OPs question. He could have easily said that, in regards to Summoning, the Eidolon is an Animal Companion. Instead he flat out stated that the Eidolon was an Animal Companion in Organized Play.
again the party won. only the rogue was down once, thanks to friendly fire.
again the summoner was very much limited to casting walls of fire and the eidolon lasted longer thanks to it's high ac but was pretty easyly killed once that was taken care off :)
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I don't think he'd make such a broad statement if it was only in regards to the OPs question. He could have easily said that, in regards to Summoning, the Eidolon is an Animal Companion. Instead he flat out stated that the Eidolon was an Animal Companion in Organized Play.I think that he meant that for the purposes of answering the OPs question, not for eidelons in general.this would mean that the eidolon would use Multiattack ( i think the sole reason lvl 9 was selected for the playtest) and 2 Poins of evolutions.
as well as access to summon Monster 5 and 1 level 3 spell.
all that mostly for an animal companion that is way worse than an dire Lion ( summon Monster 5).
it is a powerful combination up to level 5, and loosing rapidly thereafterJust found a thread where, at least for Organized Play, Eidolons are Animal Companions. So, a summoner 5/ Druid 4 with Boon Companion( Eidolon ) and Boon Companion( Animal Companion ) would have a lvl 9 Eidolon and a lvl 8 Animal Companion. I am sure it trails off after that( again ), but that is still rather impressive.
Edit: Sited Post
For the purposes of OP, the eidolon is an animal companion.
I think you are taking OP to mean Organized Play and I'm taking it to mean original post. This is the problem when you get to many acronyms that can fit multiple phrases. The same reason I never call animal companions AC because that's already the given acronym for Armor Class. Anywho even given that you are interpreting it correctly I still don't think that the feat would apply, but that's my opinion and I see how you see it differently.
Hey where can I see the fight?
again the party won. only the rogue was down once, thanks to friendly fire.
again the summoner was very much limited to casting walls of fire and the eidolon lasted longer thanks to it's high ac but was pretty easyly killed once that was taken care off :)
When the same party (healed but with less resources due to fight #1) faced the same summoner again I won.
Give the summoner some precast spells and the situation may change even more dramatically.
Also winning initiative is a huge boon for everybody as focused on battlefield control as the summoner :)
and Precast Spells always change situations dramatically
Also winning initiative is a huge boon for everybody as focused on battlefield control as the summoner :)
and Precast Spells always change situations dramatically
I didn't complain about initiative when you won it ;>
A summoner and eidolon do function better when they both have an individual initiative count. Most Paizo encounters that feature casters usually feature precastings. A stoneskin on the eidolon could have helped, as would have shield.
So, can we take it that ignoring black tentacles, and tentacles on the Eidolon, victory is determined by circumstance and luck?
And for clarity, the fights with Azmahel have been using the updated Summoner?
So, can we take it that ignoring black tentacles, and tentacles on the Eidolon, victory is determined by circumstance and luck?
And for clarity, the fights with Azmahel have been using the updated Summoner?
Yes, the fights have been done with the updated summoner rules.
Regarding your first statement: please judge the fights themselves.
My position is that a summoner requires more effort of a party.
we used the updated summoner, to the effect that he didn't get to summon even 1 monster.
I did not complain about initiative, i just made an observation. :)
So, can we take it that ignoring black tentacles, and tentacles on the Eidolon, victory is determined by circumstance and luck?
And for clarity, the fights with Azmahel have been using the updated Summoner?
Yes, the fights have been done with the updated summoner rules.
Regarding your first statement: please judge the fights themselves.
My position is that a summoner requires more effort of a party.
a well played summoner will, but using decent tactics is alway a valueable asset and can turn nearly any normal encounter to an encounter that needs consierable effort, or at least resources from the party.
Compare an open fight vs. a buch of kobolds to one where they use cover, flanking, etc.