A Man and his Dog
Just had my 9th level summoner face off against a Ezren, Kyra, Valeros and Merisiel at 7th level.
A-Man – male human 9th level summoner
S 8, D 14, C 13, I 12, W 10, C 21
HP = 62
AC = 16
I gave him no feats or skills, toughness might have been nice.
Spells known:
3 – black tentacles, greater invisibility, stoneskin, wall of fire
2 – barksin, slow, protection from arrows, bull’s strength, blur
1 – shield, enlarge person, reduce person, magic fang
Dog
Large Quadropred eidolon
Free evolution: bite, limbs (2)
HP 84
F +10 R +8 W +2
Feats: power attack, dodge, combat reflexes, mobility
No skills allocated
Speed 40
Evolutions (13)
Blindsense (3)
Large (3)
Immunity fire (2)
Claws (1)
Pounce (1)
Trip (1)
Ability increase constitution (2)
S 26, D 15, C 20, I 7, W 10, C 11
Setup
A-Man and his Dog face off against a party of well-known heroes. There are two buildings to the right side of either party to provide some tactical interest. Encounter distance is 90 feet.
Initiative:
Merisiel goes first with 27
Valeros is second with 22
Ezren is third with 19
Kyra is fourth with 8
A Man and his Dog are last with 5
Initial thoughts: well this is going to be a 2 round encounter, the wizard acts before I do, it’s over for the summoner.
Round 1
The Rogue and Fighter race forward. Ezren casts black tentacles, throws badly but still catches the summoner with the spell and deals 8 damage. Dog is not grappled. Kyra delays (why? Because I messed up and acted first). Dog races towards the northern side of the building that is farthest away. A-Man transpositions himself with Dog! Freedom! Kyra walks up and casts searing light. Hits and does 23 damage.
Round 2
Rogue and Fighter race towards A-Man, Fighter manages to reach me but cannot attack this turn. Ezren fireballs Dog, no damage due to fire immunity, black tentacles deal 5 dmg to Dog.
Kyra closes with scimitar and deals 8 dmg. A-Man is now flanked between Fighter and Cleric. That is no good so A-Man bolts away to the East and takes 18 dmg from AoO’s. A-Man casts wall of fire to block line of sight. Deals 2 dmg to cleric and 5 dmg to wizard. Dog escapes the black tentacles and bound towards the fighter and rogue.
Round 3
Rogue fails to hit Dog. Fighter scores a critical on Dog for 22 dmg. Wizard moves away from wall of fire. Cleric moves away from wall of fire and casts fire shield. A-Man casts greater invisibility and moves 6 squares. Dog deals 32 points of damage to the fighter.
Round 4
Rogue scores critical on Dog, deals 18 dmg.
Fighter deals 30 points of damage to Dog.
Wizard casts magic missile upon Dog, does 16 dmg. Dog is DOWN!
Cleric jumps through wall of fire, luckily I am invisible.
A-Man is upset, dismisses the wall of fire and casts summon monster 5 (Sp) as a standard action, summons dinosaur. Dinosaur attacks wizard and misses with a 1.
I ruled that the dino and other summoned monsters can act on my current turn if summoned with the (Sp) ability.
Round 5
Rogue kills Dog.
Fighter moves halfway between wizard and rogue, covering the wizards intended escape.
Wizard attemps to move away from Dino, Dino scores a hit 18 dmg + stunned.
Cleric double moves towards the fight.
A-Man summons an ettin.
Ettin hits the stunned wizard 4 times, deals 40+ dmg, Ezren is dead!
Dino hits fighter, 23 damage and stunned.
Round 6
Rogue scores a critical on the dino, 16 dmg.
Fighter is stunned.
Cleric moves in and channels energy, healing 12 dmg to itself and fighter.
A-Man summons another ettin, ettin #2 deals 14 damage to Cleric.
Ettin #1 kills the fighter.
Dino misses the rogue.
Stopped the playtest. Rogue and Cleric are doomed in a melee with 3 monsters so will very likely run away. A-Man can catch them with a black tentacles or hunt them down. A-Man wins!
Resources spent: 3 of my 8 summon monster 5’s + 1 3rd level spell (wall of fire). A-Man is ready to some more kick ass and Dog will be back tomorrow. The adventuring party presented an EL 10 encounter to A-Man. OK, I had only 3 HP left, but I won!
Note: Ettin is from the summon natural ally list, not from summon monster V. OK, that is a mistake but a babau demon would have killed the wizard and fighter as well.
My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
I am calling shenanigans. Who would waste time focusing on a dog?
I am calling shenanigans. Who would waste time focusing on a dog?
A large eidolon isn't a threat?
As a rule, I as a player don't jump through walls of fire, you may do it, but I don't, unless my life depended on it.
The Rogue and Fighter engaged the eidolon. That was the decision.
My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
What exactly are the stats for the pcs in this playtest? A level 7 fighter critting for only 22 damage? That seems very low to me. Neither the wizard nor the cleric buffed the party at all, everyone went straight to offense. A wizard casting fireball at a single target? Not a good use of an action. A haste would have been infinitely better. The cleric casting searing light and then hiting with a weapon? There HAD to be better spells available.
Meanwhile though the party had poor tactics, the summoner had EXCELLENT tactics. He used his teleport to move himself to safety, wall of fire to cover his retreat the second time, then used summons to split and break down the party. He also used greater invise which apparently neither caster in the party was prepared to deal with, another boon for him.
I will be honest, it really seems you set your pc's up to fail here.
My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
What exactly are the stats for the pcs in this playtest? A level 7 fighter critting for only 22 damage? That seems very low to me. Neither the wizard nor the cleric buffed the party at all, everyone went straight to offense. A wizard casting fireball at a single target? Not a good use of an action. A haste would have been infinitely better. The cleric casting searing light and then hiting with a weapon? There HAD to be better spells available.
Meanwhile though the party had poor tactics, the summoner had EXCELLENT tactics. He used his teleport to move himself to safety, wall of fire to cover his retreat the second time, then used summons to split and break down the party. He also used greater invise which apparently neither caster in the party was prepared to deal with, another boon for him.
I will be honest, it really seems you set your pc's up to fail here.
I have to agree or they were noobs. Fireball come on? You have 2 opponents you just disable 1 preferably the summoner round one. The dog is a BDF and a low threat. That dogs has ass for will saves and you summoner has ass for fort saves. Any cleric worth his salt has purge invisibility.
I used these stats, 7th level ones
The 22 damage is low rolls and fire damage immunity. Otherwise it would have been higher and Dog would have been killed sooner.
The tactical situation doesn't translate well to text it seems, the party almost had him and then it was over for them. This happens, this was my playtest. If you don't like the results: post yours.
My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
What exactly are the stats for the pcs in this playtest? A level 7 fighter critting for only 22 damage? That seems very low to me. Neither the wizard nor the cleric buffed the party at all, everyone went straight to offense. A wizard casting fireball at a single target? Not a good use of an action. A haste would have been infinitely better. The cleric casting searing light and then hiting with a weapon? There HAD to be better spells available.
Meanwhile though the party had poor tactics, the summoner had EXCELLENT tactics. He used his teleport to move himself to safety, wall of fire to cover his retreat the second time, then used summons to split and break down the party. He also used greater invise which apparently neither caster in the party was prepared to deal with, another boon for him.
I will be honest, it really seems you set your pc's up to fail here.
Another issue is why doesn't a 7th level wizard have dimension door? Why run when you can just teleport? Why did he not turn invisible? All casters have, or at least should have escape plans/spells. I am sure there were other ways to handle that. That was just off the top of my head.
I used these stats, 7th level ones
The 22 damage is low rolls and fire damage immunity. Otherwise it would have been higher and Dog would have been killed sooner.
The tactical situation doesn't translate well to text it seems, the party almost had him and then it was over for them. This happens, this was my playtest. If you don't like the results: post yours.
If you want to be taken seriously use legit tactics.
If you want to be taken seriously use legit tactics.
Tactics were legit, if you don't like the outcome of them......
Again, my playtest, my result. I fully expect that your playtest has the same result.
I used these stats, 7th level ones
The 22 damage is low rolls and fire damage immunity. Otherwise it would have been higher and Dog would have been killed sooner.
The tactical situation doesn't translate well to text it seems, the party almost had him and then it was over for them. This happens, this was my playtest. If you don't like the results: post yours.
I have always considered those pregens pretty poorly built but I guess that is an opinion. They are made to be easy to use by people who dont know how or arent willing to make their own characters. Given the fire restistance I would say the dog is better built then any of them
I will post my results likely on tuesday after my first round of playtesting, and I welcome you to comment on what I post when I do.
I am not trying to criticize what you did, I just think you are drawing conclusions that arent accounting for mitigating factors. If the wizard and cleric had better spells prepared, they wouldnt have almost had him, they would have had him. For instance if the wizard had layed down a haste in the first round and black tentacles in the second, you are likely to have very different results. If the cleric had a prayer or magic circle ready instead of that searing light, or even better an invisibility purge, again very different result.
If you want to be taken seriously use legit tactics.Tactics were legit, if you don't like the outcome of them......
Again, my playtest, my result. I fully expect that your playtest has the same result.
Round 1
Fighter has Ransur equiped and readies for closest opponent to trip themRogue moves to 30` of A man and sneaks him with a short bow. I roll a 9. He has +5 dex and+5 to hit=19 I hit 1d6+4d6 sneak=ave damage=17
Mage casts slow on A-man and Dog DC 18 A-man rolls 17+5=22, Dog rolls 10+2=12 fails Dog is slowed.
Cleric cast Silence on A-man DC 15 he rolls a 3+5=8 he silenced
Sorry this is fight is over
I have always considered those pregens pretty poorly built but I guess that is an opinion. They are made to be easy to use by people who dont know how or arent willing to make their own characters. Given the fire restistance I would say the dog is better built then any of themI will post my results likely on tuesday after my first round of playtesting, and I welcome you to comment on what I post when I do.
I am not trying to criticize what you did, I just think you are drawing conclusions that arent accounting for mitigating factors. If the wizard and cleric had better spells prepared, they wouldnt have almost had him, they would have had him. For instance if the wizard had layed down a haste in the first round and black tentacles in the second, you are likely to have very different results. If the cleric had a prayer or magic circle ready instead of that searing light, or even better an invisibility purge, again very different result.
I look forward to your playtest.
Wizard casts haste and cleric casts magic circle. Summoner casts black tentacles on the wizard. Wizard is out of the game, maybe the cleric too.
Eidolon intercepts whomever. Summoner retreats 6 steps and next round he goes invisible.
We can debate move, countermove all day.
I grant that the pregens are not the most optimized bunch of PCs, however should a summoner encounter require that?
I used these stats, 7th level ones
The 22 damage is low rolls and fire damage immunity. Otherwise it would have been higher and Dog would have been killed sooner.
The tactical situation doesn't translate well to text it seems, the party almost had him and then it was over for them. This happens, this was my playtest. If you don't like the results: post yours.
I have always considered those pregens pretty poorly built but I guess that is an opinion. They are made to be easy to use by people who dont know how or arent willing to make their own characters. Given the fire restistance I would say the dog is better built then any of them
I will post my results likely on tuesday after my first round of playtesting, and I welcome you to comment on what I post when I do.
I am not trying to criticize what you did, I just think you are drawing conclusions that arent accounting for mitigating factors. If the wizard and cleric had better spells prepared, they wouldnt have almost had him, they would have had him. For instance if the wizard had layed down a haste in the first round and black tentacles in the second, you are likely to have very different results. If the cleric had a prayer or magic circle ready instead of that searing light, or even better an invisibility purge, again very different result.
I think pregens are for new players. Simple is better with starting playing so you don't overwhelm them.
I think pregens are for new players. Simple is better with starting playing so you don't overwhelm them.
OT: I think they playtested the Bestiary with the pregens.
I have always considered those pregens pretty poorly built but I guess that is an opinion. They are made to be easy to use by people who dont know how or arent willing to make their own characters. Given the fire restistance I would say the dog is better built then any of themI will post my results likely on tuesday after my first round of playtesting, and I welcome you to comment on what I post when I do.
I am not trying to criticize what you did, I just think you are drawing conclusions that arent accounting for mitigating factors. If the wizard and cleric had better spells prepared, they wouldnt have almost had him, they would have had him. For instance if the wizard had layed down a haste in the first round and black tentacles in the second, you are likely to have very different results. If the cleric had a prayer or magic circle ready instead of that searing light, or even better an invisibility purge, again very different result.
I look forward to your playtest.
Wizard casts haste and cleric casts magic circle. Summoner casts black tentacles on the wizard. Wizard is out of the game, maybe the cleric too.
Eidolon intercepts whomever. Summoner retreats 6 steps and next round he goes invisible.
We can debate move, countermove all day.
I grant that the pregens are not the most optimized bunch of PCs, however should a summoner encounter require that?
Without question even with paizo's adjustment of the CR system, some enemies are more challenging depending on thier capacity and your party makeup within the same CR. So I think it makes a difference. A Summoner can potentially be harder to deal with without the rigth tools, the same way a young red dragon would not be as difficult to take down with a paladin in the party. And it seems Dog was built with the intention of negating the fighters flaming sword and the wizards fireball, otherwise to me at least the energy immunity is not hte best thing you could have done with those evolution points. Because that immunity is very circumstantial. What if the wizard had lightning bolt and the fighter a shocking sword instead? Things would have been dramatically different even without optimizing the pc's but with slightly different choices. Which leads me to believe its premature to say the summoner can take on challanges well and above his level all by himself after 1 fight.
Edit: I'd also like to point out that putting a party against a higher level caster never works out no matter what CR's say, sure a level 9 wizard is a CR8 but it will likely crush a level 7 party quite easily.
One playtest round does not a 'conclusion' make. Nor is it good playtest methodolgy. I support Darkjoy in that it is his playtest and one must make allowances for optimal and sub-optimal play, as the players can be everything from casual gamers to powergamers. His playtest is not invalidated by how it played out.
What I have an issue with is 'drawing a conclusion' on one combat. I would suggest a minimum of three combats with the same participants doing different tactics. Then you can draw a conclusion if a trend develops.
Die rolls can be very swingy during a playtest so I would suggest a playtest round in which all die rolls are the 'average roll' (rounded up) and then the swingy-ness of bad rolls or hot rolls is factored out. Then one can truly start to see if summoner is as 'uber' as the initial one playtest suggests.
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My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
I don't get your conclusion at all, the only thing this proves is that the shortening of the casting time for the Spell like summons is broken. Not the eidelon, you beat the eidelon. If the summon spells took a round to cast like they're supposed to then every one of the PCs could have hit the summoner that round and taken him down, or at least been more prepared to deal with whatever he summoned. You've proven thourughly IMO that the standard action spammed summons is broken. but your conclusion on the eidelon makes absolutely no sense.
Fire damage is the most common damage element. So I warded my pet against it. Did that not really help the party? Yes, fire damage was negated and the encounter became deadlier, but not until I finally got off a summon monster V.
Having just done extensive playtest for an (upcoming) article I can say that most of the times the party wins against a level 9 sorcerer or wizard. Using the exact same pregens.
I look forward to everyone else's playtest reports. I am also perfectly willing to playtest using another 9th level eidolon, post it and I'll run another session.
I don't get your conclusion at all, the only thing this proves is that the shortening of the casting time for the Spell like summons is broken. Not the eidelon, you beat the eidelon. If the summon spells took a round to cast like they're supposed to then every one of the PCs could have hit the summoner that round and taken him down, or at least been more prepared to deal with whatever he summoned. You've proven thourughly IMO that the standard action spammed summons is broken. but your conclusion on the eidelon makes absolutely no sense.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
Ow, your right that doesn't make sense.
The eidolon creation mechanics are nice and fun (great even). However, the rest of the summoner package + strength of the eidolon is not good for the game in my opinion.
Let's just say I forgot to write down all my thoughts at the same time.
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Fire damage is the most common damage element. So I warded my pet against it. Did that not really help the party? Yes, fire damage was negated and the encounter became deadlier, but not until I finally got off a summon monster V.
Having just done extensive playtest for an (upcoming) article I can say that most of the times the party wins against a level 9 sorcerer or wizard. Using the exact same pregens.
I look forward to everyone else's playtest reports. I am also perfectly willing to playtest using another 9th level eidolon, post it and I'll run another session.
Don't get me wrong, I think what you did was great, I'm probably going to try it myself when I get home, and I have absolutely no problem with how that combat turned out, I just really don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the eidelon mechanic is the problematic part of the class and not the standard action summons that allowed you to summon a powerful creature and have him attack in the same round. I mean if every PC had had a full action before that dino had come into play wouldn't things have turned out differently?
EDIT: And then you go an ninja me lol
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If you want to be taken seriously use legit tactics.Tactics were legit, if you don't like the outcome of them......
Again, my playtest, my result. I fully expect that your playtest has the same result.
Round 1
Fighter has Ransur equiped and readies for closest opponent to trip them
Rogue moves to 30` of A man and sneaks him with a short bow. I roll a 9. He has +5 dex and+5 to hit=19 I hit 1d6+4d6 sneak=ave damage=17
Mage casts slow on A-man and Dog DC 18 A-man rolls 17+5=22, Dog rolls 10+2=12 fails Dog is slowed.
Cleric cast Silence on A-man DC 15 he rolls a 3+5=8 he silencedSorry this is fight is over
Silence won't stop those summon swarms. "Over" is a definite "over"statement.
It would be interesting to see this exact same scenario played out multiple times, ideally with multiple sets of players, to see it would play out over the wide variation of spell selection, dice rolls, and tactics available. Just changing the fire damage to some other elemental damage, like an above poster suggested, would by itself left the summoner one less round to prepare for the parties full onslaught; which would have meant no fire wall, no improved invisibility, or not being able to use his summoning SLA. Regardless of what action he didn't get, in a battle that close, one action can make a lot of difference. While it was a valid play test, its hard to draw conclusions without more data to work with.
Really you don't have any problems with that combat scenario?
How it just happened to play just right to maximize the utility of the summoner? While the other classes were underplayed.I think I will probably be seeing more "playtests" like this. Trying to make it look OP because some people already have problems with it, making senarios that play to all the summoners advantages. Hopefully the people at pazio will know better than to take them seriously.
I threw the dice and reported how they rolled. Once again I am going to ask you to post your results.
OR as a challenge to you, you give me 4 PC's at level 7 ready to roll (core only). I'll take your pick of 9th level eidolon and run another playtest.
If NOT, then please stop insinuating that this playtest was rigged.
I don't see a problem with this scenario as long as its done as part of a larger program of play testing. Scenarios need to run from summoner getting optimum advantage to players having optimum advantage. In the end, the average result is the one that ultimately counts the most as far as balancing issues are concerned. And as far as people's concern that the combo of summoner and eidolon is too strong, its no worse than a really experienced player running roughshod over a brand new dm. A good dm will find ways to keep the summoner, or his eidolon, from taking over the game, just as a smart party will find ways to overcome the npc summoner, and his eidolon.
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Really you don't have any problems with that combat scenario?
How it just happened to play just right to maximize the utility of the summoner? While the other classes were underplayed.I think I will probably be seeing more "playtests" like this. Trying to make it look OP because some people already have problems with it, making senarios that play to all the summoners advantages. Hopefully the people at pazio will know better than to take them seriously.
The spell selections of the party were pre-made, the only thing the dog had that made it so great was fire resistance, You're telling me fire is something so uncommon in the game that it's absolutely ludicrous without even looking at the pregens for the monster to have? And I am going to go home and set up the same scenario and see what happens, but no, I think he genuinely played each character.
What I have a problem with is the "why would he bother with the dog" my question is, how would they know offing the summoner would stop the dog or even that the summoner is a summoner and not just a wizard and a monster that it charmed/dominated/or is an outsider even nastier then the spellcaster.
I wouldn't have characters running through a wall of fire either. Now could things have played out differently if different tactics were used yes, do I have a problem with his playtest? no.
Silence won't stop those summon swarms. "Over" is a definite "over"statement.
If you want to be taken seriously use legit tactics.Tactics were legit, if you don't like the outcome of them......
Again, my playtest, my result. I fully expect that your playtest has the same result.
Round 1
Fighter has Ransur equiped and readies for closest opponent to trip them
Rogue moves to 30` of A man and sneaks him with a short bow. I roll a 9. He has +5 dex and+5 to hit=19 I hit 1d6+4d6 sneak=ave damage=17
Mage casts slow on A-man and Dog DC 18 A-man rolls 17+5=22, Dog rolls 10+2=12 fails Dog is slowed.
Cleric cast Silence on A-man DC 15 he rolls a 3+5=8 he silencedSorry this is fight is over
maybe how you would play the PCs in a playtest. How many rounds do you think he will be able to spam summon monster with 4 7th level pc gang banging him? He is outnumbered/out gunned, has crappy saves and he is more then 1/2 neutered right now. I stand by my statement its all over but the crying...
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Like their not supposed to. They would be supposed to if we were talking about a wizard or sorcerer. We are talking about a summoner who is inherently better at summoning. If the enemies and things chosen did not just happen to be things that the summoner just happened to be speced and ready for it would not be a problemI don't get your conclusion at all, the only thing this proves is that the shortening of the casting time for the Spell like summons is broken. Not the eidelon, you beat the eidelon. If the summon spells took a round to cast like they're supposed to then every one of the PCs could have hit the summoner that round and taken him down, or at least been more prepared to deal with whatever he summoned. You've proven thourughly IMO that the standard action spammed summons is broken. but your conclusion on the eidelon makes absolutely no sense.My conclusions after the playtest.
1) The summoner has issues, in its current form it outfights a standard party of four even when they have him at a disadvantage.
2) Going 'nova' with summons will likely solve every encounter. And yes, you can do a partial nova and do four other encounters in a day.
3) This wasn't an optimized build, if I had used some of the optimized eidolon builds, who knows what could have happened. TPK in 3 rounds?
4) A summoner can do several +2 El encounters all by himself. Outshining the rest of the table.
So the eidolon mechanics are nice and fun, but when introduced in a game it is going to wreck it. It is not good in its current incarnation.
Yeah I forgot minutes per day instead of rounds per day is in no way inherently better.
and no, like the spell is built and balanced around, and a playtest class is seeing how it plays out if done differently and showing that if done as a standard action it's just a tad overpowered. In no way is a playtest version of something the way it's supposed to be.
Really you don't have any problems with that combat scenario?
How it just happened to play just right to maximize the utility of the summoner? While the other classes were underplayed.I think I will probably be seeing more "playtests" like this. Trying to make it look OP because some people already have problems with it, making senarios that play to all the summoners advantages. Hopefully the people at pazio will know better than to take them seriously.
The spell selections of the party were pre-made, the only thing the dog had that made it so great was fire resistance, You're telling me fire is something so uncommon in the game that it's absolutely ludicrous without even looking at the pregens for the monster to have? And I am going to go home and set up the same scenario and see what happens, but no, I think he genuinely played each character.
What I have a problem with is the "why would he bother with the dog" my question is, how would they know offing the summoner would stop the dog or even that the summoner is a summoner and not just a wizard and a monster that it charmed/dominated/or is an outsider even nastier then the spellcaster.
I wouldn't have characters running through a wall of fire either. Now could things have played out differently if different tactics were used yes, do I have a problem with his playtest? no.
It has nothing to do with offing the summoner and the dog is going by by you can allow dog to stay it makes no difference in the strategy. It is a numbers game. you have 4 players fighting 2 opponents. PC have more chances to remove an opponent from the fight. You remove 1 opponent and you have about 1/2 the fight. The dog is straight up fighter and a good one but the summoner is the wild card he has encounter changing abilities so you focus on him. Round 1 summoner casts slow or glitter dust that could be huge.
Now if 4 vs 4 you would use different tactics but I bet you would still focus on the wild cards. It all about cutting the EL of the encounter.
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Really you don't have any problems with that combat scenario?
How it just happened to play just right to maximize the utility of the summoner? While the other classes were underplayed.I think I will probably be seeing more "playtests" like this. Trying to make it look OP because some people already have problems with it, making senarios that play to all the summoners advantages. Hopefully the people at pazio will know better than to take them seriously.
The spell selections of the party were pre-made, the only thing the dog had that made it so great was fire resistance, You're telling me fire is something so uncommon in the game that it's absolutely ludicrous without even looking at the pregens for the monster to have? And I am going to go home and set up the same scenario and see what happens, but no, I think he genuinely played each character.
What I have a problem with is the "why would he bother with the dog" my question is, how would they know offing the summoner would stop the dog or even that the summoner is a summoner and not just a wizard and a monster that it charmed/dominated/or is an outsider even nastier then the spellcaster.
I wouldn't have characters running through a wall of fire either. Now could things have played out differently if different tactics were used yes, do I have a problem with his playtest? no.
It has nothing to do with offing the summoner and the dog is going by by you can allow dog to stay it makes no difference in the strategy. It is a numbers game. you have 4 players fighting 2 opponents. PC have more chances to remove an opponent from the fight. You remove 1 opponent and you have about 1/2 the fight. The dog is straight up fighter and a good one but the summoner is the wild card he has encounter changing abilities so you focus on him. Round 1 summoner casts slow or glitter dust that could be huge.
Now if 4 vs 4 you would use different tactics but I bet you would still focus on the wild cards....
I understand what you're saying but your point in no way invalidates what legitimately happened with his playtest. In his playtest the summoner beat a party of four.
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maybe how you would play the PCs in a playtest. How many rounds do you think he will be able to spam summon monster with 4 7th level pc gang banging him? He is outnumbered/out gunned, has crappy saves and he is more then 1/2 neutered right now. I stand by my statement its all over but the crying...
Well, if it were me playing A-man, it would be 1d4+1 fiendish crocodiles, set up to flank the wizard and rogue respectively, and then the eidolon makes a partial charge against the fighter. The wizard promptly gets grappled and death rolled - the rogue may or may not do so, but is going to find that shortbow a lot less useful. If we're assuming that the fighter is specc'd for tripping, he's got a good but not overwhelming chance to trip the eidolon (EDIT: rough calculation suggests it would be about 50/50); regardless, the dog is replaceable first thing tomorrow morning, so it's not a serious issue, and if it fails, the dog gets to use pounce despite the slow, and gets to try to trip the fighter as well. After the summon is finished, A-man runs away from the cleric and waits until next round, when he brings in 1d3 dire wolves to start annoying the fighter and the cleric.
...Really you don't have any problems with that combat scenario?
How it just happened to play just right to maximize the utility of the summoner? While the other classes were underplayed.I think I will probably be seeing more "playtests" like this. Trying to make it look OP because some people already have problems with it, making senarios that play to all the summoners advantages. Hopefully the people at pazio will know better than to take them seriously.
The spell selections of the party were pre-made, the only thing the dog had that made it so great was fire resistance, You're telling me fire is something so uncommon in the game that it's absolutely ludicrous without even looking at the pregens for the monster to have? And I am going to go home and set up the same scenario and see what happens, but no, I think he genuinely played each character.
What I have a problem with is the "why would he bother with the dog" my question is, how would they know offing the summoner would stop the dog or even that the summoner is a summoner and not just a wizard and a monster that it charmed/dominated/or is an outsider even nastier then the spellcaster.
I wouldn't have characters running through a wall of fire either. Now could things have played out differently if different tactics were used yes, do I have a problem with his playtest? no.
It has nothing to do with offing the summoner and the dog is going by by you can allow dog to stay it makes no difference in the strategy. It is a numbers game. you have 4 players fighting 2 opponents. PC have more chances to remove an opponent from the fight. You remove 1 opponent and you have about 1/2 the fight. The dog is straight up fighter and a good one but the summoner is the wild card he has encounter changing abilities so you focus on him. Round 1 summoner casts slow or glitter dust that could be huge.
Now if 4 vs 4 you would use different tactics but I bet you would still focus
A druid could do the same thing with the way the pcs played.
A thought on the fact he just spammed his SM ability is that if it becomes a problem, the gm could always just limit it to one active use of it at a time. This doesn't significantly weaken the ability, and prevents the summoner from flooding the battlefield with living obstacles.
So, the tentative thought thus far is that:
(a) the eidolon is probably OK, but
(b) the summon monster SLA should be limited in some manner: either a full-round action or at least limited to one in effect at any given time.
We can't forget the other thought, that the class is fine and the playtest was not done well.
That thought was taken into account, but I have a hard time believing that spamming infinite summon monsters to clog every battlefield is a good thing, in the long run. Even if it turns out not to be a power issue, it's sure to become a clog down game play issue.
So, the tentative thought thus far is that:
(a) the eidolon is probably OK, but
(b) the summon monster SLA should be limited in some manner: either a full-round action or at least limited to one in effect at any given time.
seems like that is the issue with most of em. Alot of folks are going off on the duration but it is looking like the shortened casting time is the big issue in most of these I have read
My concern with not having any limits in on summon monster ability is as much with the time required for the bookkeeping and running of multiple castings of it. Unless the player has all the stats written out on some kind of notepad or cards that he can access easily, all those monsters can become a nightmare to the rest of the party and gm. Even if the stats are readily available, you end up with one player taking 5 minutes as he figures out what to do with himself, his eidolon, and all his summoned animals. It can drag game's pace down very quickly, even with the most prepared player. I say this enjoying classes that take preparation to play properly without slowing the game down. Some things just can't dealt with quickly.
And even with his index cards handy and his tactics planned, this dude is rolling like twenty-six different handfuls of dice and probably moving various dolls around all over the place. All that takes time.
One big summoned cat pouncing = 5 attack rolls, up to 5 damage rolls, plus checks for grappling. That's a pain, but easily manageable. Four big summoned cats quickly become an infinite time sink, and that's only half the guy's daily uses. And that's not including the eidolon, with however many attacks he ramps that up to.
Except that rolling 20 attacks (and possibly damage and other special things like trip) per round for round after round after round is something that not even the best player in the world can do both quickly and accurately, especially if you have different monsters summoned through various castings. And if they just leveled and haven't had a chance to learn the full stats for the new monsters, it will take time, no matter how good the player.