Right now, I fear that the summoner is too focused on conjuring monsters. I understand that the class is called “the summoner,” and I understand that summoning is its schtick. However, I’m afraid that its SLA ability of summon monster might be a tiny bit over the top. If the summoner were to lack its eidolon and instead summon monsters each combat, I would be fine with the current ability. However, because the summoner has its eidolon, I fear that the ability is going to lead to a multitude of economy of actions problems—both in terms of class power and in terms of time taken by the summoner’s player.
Right now, the player has the summoner’s actions, the eidolon’s actions, and the potential for a slew of other actions with his summons. Instead of doing this, I would suggest allowing the summoner to learn bonus conjuration spells off the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Here’s how I would set it up:
Level 3: Add a 1st-level spell to your 1st-level spells known.
Level 5: Add a 1st or 2nd-level spell to your 1st-level spells known.
Level 7: Add a 2nd or 3rd-level spell to your 2nd level spells known.
Level 11: Add a 3rd or 4th-level spell to your 3rd level spells known.
Level 15: Add a 4th or 5th-level spell to your 4th level spells known.
Level 19: Add a 5th or 6th-level spell to your 5th-level spells known.
Did you just say the SUMMONER should get less SUMMONS? :D
I disagree. I like the concept of allowing the Summoner, even with his limited spellcasting, to summon monsters as well as and at the same levels as a regular a full spellcasting class. I'd like to see more classes like this which limit spellcasting in a similar way, yet keep the flavor strong.
The druid faces the same problem, do you recommend we remove their ability to spontaneously cast summon natures ally?
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The druid faces the same problem, do you recommend we remove their ability to spontaneously cast summon natures ally?
Not that I think we should specifically limit the summons, but, to be fair, a druids summon nature ally doesn't last for 1 min/level.
I think you should only be able to have one active summon monster spell at a time using the SLA.
Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.
IMO easiest way to make it less actions is to limit it to one summon monster spell active at a time. I wish it had been set up/balanced that way for 3.75. I think it is a better option then banning them all together.
Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.
Any suggestions for how to develop a CR for a group with a summoner in it? It seems that with the sheer number of summons they have available they can make an appropriate level encounter for a group totally meaningless, especially if the summoner saves his summons for the BBEG.
Any suggestions for how to develop a CR for a group with a summoner in it? It seems that with the sheer number of summons they have available they can make an appropriate level encounter for a group totally meaningless, especially if the summoner saves his summons for the BBEG.Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.
I am not yet convince a summoner is powerful enough to warrent a cr increase. He is infact just part of the party, his summons are part of his power, just like a wizards spells or a fighter's sword. Sure a bunch of summons is a great thing, but is it more game changing then say a grease spell at low levels? Or black tentacles? And if your summoner is saving all his summons for the big bad you probably arent taxing your players properly before hand. My players always have a few fights before they get to the big bad (he has minions after all) and when they get there, the big bad is never, ever EVER alone. There will always be fodder to keep the big bad safe long enough to cause some havoc.
I am going to be doing some playtesting in the next week or so, in which case i'll get back to you if I think the CR needs increasing.
As for the minutes per level thing, I just dont see it as a problem for my group. Our encounters are always spread out, especially when we stop to search a room after an encounter. All of our dms always hide clues and little plot hooks in important rooms and encounters, so things take a little extra time. Plus identifying loot, and divying it up always takes some time. I mean maybe at very high levels if there are a bunch of fights together, but it wont be a big deal at my table.
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Any suggestions for how to develop a CR for a group with a summoner in it? It seems that with the sheer number of summons they have available they can make an appropriate level encounter for a group totally meaningless, especially if the summoner saves his summons for the BBEG.Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.
I am not yet convince a summoner is powerful enough to warrent a cr increase. He is infact just part of the party, his summons are part of his power, just like a wizards spells or a fighter's sword. Sure a bunch of summons is a great thing, but is it more game changing then say a grease spell at low levels? Or black tentacles? And if your summoner is saving all his summons for the big bad you probably arent taxing your players properly before hand. My players always have a few fights before they get to the big bad (he has minions after all) and when they get there, the big bad is never, ever EVER alone. There will always be fodder to keep the big bad safe long enough to cause some havoc.
I am going to be doing some playtesting in the next week or so, in which case i'll get back to you if I think the CR needs increasing.
As for the minutes per level thing, I just dont see it as a problem for my group. Our encounters are always spread out, especially when we stop to search a room after an encounter. All of our dms always hide clues and little plot hooks in important rooms and encounters, so things take a little extra time. Plus identifying loot, and divying it up...
I think you are missing the most important advantage of min/lvl.
Rogue comes back from scouting.
Rogue: "Wow! There are 10 beholders and 2 dragons in the room ahead of us!"
Summoner: "Hmm... Give me a few minutes."
Summoner casts Summon Monster IX 10 times.
Summoner: "Okay, lets go give it a go!"
Summoner sends his 10 Astral Devas to attack the enemy while the rest of the party follows in to help destroy the infidels.
EDIT: Basically the point is the Summoner can have a pre-built army so he doesn't have to spend actions during combat to summon monsters. This leaves him free to Haste/Mass Bull's Strength/Mass Bear's Endurance/etc. his Astral Devas.
Any suggestions for how to develop a CR for a group with a summoner in it? It seems that with the sheer number of summons they have available they can make an appropriate level encounter for a group totally meaningless, especially if the summoner saves his summons for the BBEG.Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.
I am not yet convince a summoner is powerful enough to warrent a cr increase. He is infact just part of the party, his summons are part of his power, just like a wizards spells or a fighter's sword. Sure a bunch of summons is a great thing, but is it more game changing then say a grease spell at low levels? Or black tentacles? And if your summoner is saving all his summons for the big bad you probably arent taxing your players properly before hand. My players always have a few fights before they get to the big bad (he has minions after all) and when they get there, the big bad is never, ever EVER alone. There will always be fodder to keep the big bad safe long enough to cause some havoc.
I am going to be doing some playtesting in the next week or so, in which case i'll get back to you if I think the CR needs increasing.
As for the minutes per level thing, I just dont see it as a problem for my group. Our encounters are always spread out, especially when we stop to search a room after an encounter. All of our dms always hide clues and little plot hooks in important rooms and encounters, so things take a little extra time. Plus identifying loot, and divying it up...
Yep, the idea of whittling down the parties resources is SOP it just feels like the summoner has a lot of resources to whittle on. I won't disagree that playtesting will determine if its a problem or not, its just something that has caught my eye in a class I otherwise really like as written so far. Our group has a summoner joining them this weekend so we will see how it works out on the table. I look forward to your and everyone else's reports Kolokotroni.
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Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
Why would you even design a class around this concept?
Yes, in a standard group the summoner can go overboard with all of his summoned creatures' actions... and a courteous player won't dominate the game that way. Just as another character with summonings, animal companions, and cohorts should give the other players time to play.
Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that the summoner shouldn't use his class abilities because it's discourteous? If those abilities are going to break the game, then they shouldn't be given to the class.
That's like saying that wizards in 3.5 shouldn't use save-or-dies because they might one-hit the BBEG and that's not fun.
All I'm going to say here is that it would be very odd and probably counter productive to put a limitation on a Summoner class that isn't currently placed on other spell casters that can summon monsters and allies.
This is a very worrying attitude towards game balance. Contrast this attitude with your well-documented attitude towards called shots, for example.
But honestly, at what point is summoning a ton of monsters actually helping the party, or just becoming the Summoner (or druid or whomever) trying to see how many creatures he can get on the map?
At some point, buffing your summons and hindering your enemies becomes a lot more helpful than trying to plink a bunch more mobile roadblocks up for your foes to plow through.
Even at that, there is a way to summon tons of creatures that doesn't take up that much time and is still productive, such as by surrounding an enemy and aiding another, but that doesn't take nearly as much time as if you just summon a ton of allies and have them each do some random thing.
I feel required to post this link;
I feel required to post this link;
Wow, that was way too on topic. Thank you, poor fighter...I mean BMX Bandit.
I feel required to post this link;
So what your saying is if you dont let the summoner nova his gate spells at level 19 the terrorists win?
A single d4+1 Summon Monster and a pet pretty much bog the game down to a crawl, and repeating the mistakes of previous classes is ridiculous.
Making a class that is actively encouraged to do that is not a good idea.
It doesnt HAVE to bog the game down, i have seen a druid - beast master, with 3 animal companions and a summoned on while wild shaping run pretty smoothly if the player is properly prepared. Just dont allow anything to be summoned that the player hasnt already written down/printed for easy use. But i agree it is a potential challenge.
A single d4+1 Summon Monster and a pet pretty much bog the game down to a crawl, and repeating the mistakes of previous classes is ridiculous.
Making a class that is actively encouraged to do that is not a good idea.
Okay, and that's a perfectly valid opinion, but it kind of goes back to a discussion that started about the Cavalier during the first wave of the playtest, i.e. the class is going to be made, and given that its a summoner, its going to summon things, so its probably not the most productive in the playtest forum to say it shouldn't be made, since that ship has sailed.
Okay, and that's a perfectly valid opinion, but it kind of goes back to a discussion that started about the Cavalier during the first wave of the playtest, i.e. the class is going to be made, and given that its a summoner, its going to summon things, so its probably not the most productive in the playtest forum to say it shouldn't be made, since that ship has sailed.
A single d4+1 Summon Monster and a pet pretty much bog the game down to a crawl, and repeating the mistakes of previous classes is ridiculous.
Making a class that is actively encouraged to do that is not a good idea.
You are right, what I would instead ask that some advice on how to handle the summons at the table be given in a sidebar in the APG. It could help groups keep things smooth.
Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that the summoner shouldn't use his class abilities because it's discourteous? If those abilities are going to break the game, then they shouldn't be given to the class.
What do you say to the wizard with a cohort, mage's sword spell, a bunch of summoned allies, a charmed/dominated foe, summoned swarm, whip feather token, dancing weapon, figurine of wondrous power, and a flaming sphere? All legal according to the core rules, and have been for a decade.
This is a very worrying attitude towards game balance. Contrast this attitude with your well-documented attitude towards called shots, for example.
"Game balance" and "spend an hour on your turn in the combat round when everyone else only spends a minute" are not the same thing. Game balance does not deal with rudeness.
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Eh, I've played enough summoning-types to agree that it does bog down gameplay to have a bunch of creatures on the map, but in fairness it's usually not that bad, since they all typically have the same (low) attack bonuses, especially once you get used to the 1-2 creatures you summon frequently. And as another poster mentioned, once you have 2-3 creatures on the map it's better to cast Haste and other buffs instead of pulling more creatures in.
I'd hate to see the SLAs go away, since that's really the big appeal of the class for me, and without the SLAs the summoner doesn't really have the endurance to go through 3-5 encounters a day without pulling out the old crossbow by the 2nd encounter. I like the concept of somebody who can summon a ton of creatures each day, but has very limited slots for anything else, for the same reason that I like focused specialist conjurers. The pet, on the other hand, is a cool idea, but not really as compelling for me as the Summon Monster spells.
I'm inclined to agree. Most players are going to want to use their class features most effectively, not hold off so they aren't offending the BMX fighter.
And, as I've said in another thread, straightjacketing the summoner into using summon monster spells is silly. Name or not, the class is clearly meant to be designed around the eidolon, and many players don't like having masses of summoned creatures. Why give them a power they may not use? This same pigeonholing issue occured with the alpha specialist wizards, so I have hope it will be fixed.
I'd hate to see the SLAs go away, since that's really the big appeal of the class for me, and without the SLAs the summoner doesn't really have the endurance to go through 3-5 encounters a day without pulling out the old crossbow by the 2nd encounter. I like the concept of somebody who can summon a ton of creatures each day, but has very limited slots for anything else, for the same reason that I like focused specialist conjurers. The pet, on the other hand, is a cool idea, but not really as compelling for me as the Summon Monster spells.
I feel like that's a little bit easier to do with a conjurer (just put all of your spell slots into it). I feel like, for this class, the pet is the thing that actually matters. And, remember, if forced to fight, you aren't quite as pathetic as the wizard with a crossbow.
What do you say to the wizard with a cohort, mage's sword spell, a bunch of summoned allies, a charmed/dominated foe, summoned swarm, whip feather token, dancing weapon, figurine of wondrous power, and a flaming sphere? All legal according to the core rules, and have been for a decade.
Cohort: Legal only with DM approval.
Whip feather token: Magic item that isn't part the class.Figurine of wondrous power: Magic item that isn't part of the class.
Dancing weapon: Magic item that isn't part of the class.
Mage's sword spell: Irritating.
Flaming sphere: Never going to happen in a game in which the wizard can dominate a foe.
Summoned swarm: Never going to happen in a game in which the wizard can cast mage's sword.
Charmed/dominated foe: Yep, this one's a problem.
Summoned allies: Yep, this one's a problem.
So, yes, there are problems there, but the summoning ability is a core part of the summoner class. The wizard has economy of action problems, but those aren't automatic class features.
Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that the summoner shouldn't use his class abilities because it's discourteous? If those abilities are going to break the game, then they shouldn't be given to the class.What do you say to the wizard with a cohort, mage's sword spell, a bunch of summoned allies, a charmed/dominated foe, summoned swarm, whip feather token, dancing weapon, figurine of wondrous power, and a flaming sphere? All legal according to the core rules, and have been for a decade.
This is a very worrying attitude towards game balance. Contrast this attitude with your well-documented attitude towards called shots, for example."Game balance" and "spend an hour on your turn in the combat round when everyone else only spends a minute" are not the same thing. Game balance does not deal with rudeness.
I have to agree with that. I play a Druid and I sometimes run with multiple summons,a pet and even a bag of tricks. I consistently finish my turn much faster then most of the players at the table. I find the single biggest waste of time is inexperienced players, rule arguments over spell effects/feats and such.
Want to bring a combat to a screeching halt? Cast a obscuring mist.
That being said I do see how summons being around for minutes could be unbalancing in some pathfinder society scenarios where you have multiple encounters close together. The player could build up a small group of monsters and could try to run through multiple encounters with them.
{Cohort: Legal only with DM approval.}
Where does the Leadership feat say that? Leadership (and thus cohorts) require as much DM approval as taking Power Attack.
{So, yes, there are problems there, but the summoning ability is a core part of the summoner class. The wizard has economy of action problems, but those aren't automatic class features.}
Irrelevant. The point is that it's possible for core characters to create a situation where they're taking 5 or more actions on their turn. The summoner just has more opportunities to do so. Playing a summoner will require an experienced, well-prepared player to make it run smoothly. And I'm sure the Advanced Player's Guide will have words to that effect.
A single d4+1 Summon Monster and a pet pretty much bog the game down to a crawl, and repeating the mistakes of previous classes is ridiculous.
Making a class that is actively encouraged to do that is not a good idea.
It depends on the player. If he knows what he is going to do, and rolls the dice at the same time there is no issue. If you have an indecisive player with an NPC that is another issue. In that case you give him a limited time to do something so everyone else is not sitting there, twiddling their thumbs
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{Cohort: Legal only with DM approval.}
Where does the Leadership feat say that? Leadership (and thus cohorts) require as much DM approval as taking Power Attack.
{So, yes, there are problems there, but the summoning ability is a core part of the summoner class. The wizard has economy of action problems, but those aren't automatic class features.}
Irrelevant. The point is that it's possible for core characters to create a situation where they're taking 5 or more actions on their turn. The summoner just has more opportunities to do so. Playing a summoner will require an experienced, well-prepared player to make it run smoothly. And I'm sure the Advanced Player's Guide will have words to that effect.
To add to this the only time I had an issue with summons was due to a player that never had the stats for the monster ready. After two sessions I told him that if he did not have the stats ready he could not call the monster forth.
Part of his schtick is that the summoner can do adventures solo because he CAN conjure an army. As in, "my GM is going to run a solo campaign for me, I'm going to play a summoner because he's especially suited for it."
I was thinking this class is exceptionally well suited for solo play. If that was part of the goal then it's a definite success.
Irrelevant. The point is that it's possible for core characters to create a situation where they're taking 5 or more actions on their turn.And it's acknowledged to bog down the game. Other classes don't do it because it's a bad idea for them to do so. Why are you making a class who wants to do that?
One of the selling points of 3e was to incorporate some of the best and most common ideas and house-rules from people's 2e games. Here we have a situation where a class is going to have as a core schtick that is sufficiently obnoxious that people houserule it out of their game. It's so obnoxious that you yourself suggested people will have gentleman's agreements to keep it in check.
Didn't we just do this? Wasn't a selling point of PF that Polymorph/Wild Shape and calculating XP and calculating Power Attack/Combat Expertise weren't going to be game-stoppers any more? Why are we adding a new class with a gamestopper class ability?
I'm not suggesting cutting the summoning ability entirely, as the OP did. But allowing min/level summons from an alternate resource pool is going to mean that Ash is going to enter the fight with all of his Pokemon out every time he gets a chance to do so, and he's going to want to do that because it's his optimal strategy.
I'm really not looking forward to doing BBEG fights with 5d4+5 riding dogs running around. And I'm not looking forward to telling a player with a summoner "No, you can't use that class ability that way, because the game wasn't designed to handle it well."
i dont feel that the summoner is a game stopper, i feel that everyone is taking its one key ability and running way to far with it.
yes the summoner has his eidolon, and yes he can summon 3+cha mod times per day at 1min per level, and yes 99% of the time the summoner will jump out of the gate using the summoning spell, but as for summoning more every round i dont see many people doing that, especialy as the summoner levels based on the options and tricks he can do with his eidolon and his spells to go out and just summon 4 rounds in a row is assanine. by the time u get to use half ur summoned creatures the fight is over and if the other side has the ability to handle them without a problem then it was a waste of rounds.
Now i do feel that a summoner has great RP opprotunities as npcs ex: guild trainer for encounters, or small army groups of a few summoners go on missions to wipe out large army platoons and there eidolons all have a way to escape quickly.
but any mature pc will not use summoning spells as his only encounter tactic, i mean unless there are about 20 dire bears on a part of 4 people, but thats just a one in a million encounter
Honestly, I think these are issues that should be discussed at the table and not in a core rulebook. Any player who chooses to pursue a summoning class (druid, wizard, cleric, sorcerer, summoner, witch, oracle) should be required to take the time to stat out each ally he can place on the table. Rules of common courtesy and gimping a classes main theme don't seem appropriate.
Nothing about this would worry me, except that these classes are going to be legal for PFS. Now, I've never played PFS so maybe it's a little different; but we ran some Living Greyhawk hereabouts, and having an official document insisting that the attention-starved high schooler is required to be given an available table slot and then allowed to play a whole party of his own... might not be the best idea.
When the table's existence and everyone's seat at it are based on mutual social contract, the class will be fine. When said contract is ancillary, maybe not so much.
Seriously though, who Nova's? It's a noob tactic that, in less polite groups of more experienced players, is laughed at. There are psionicists who can make a nast Nova, as can a sorcerer with his umpteen spells, but who would? It's an absolute waste of resources and if a DM can't hack that sort of play style then perhaps they're on the wrong side of the screen.
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The role of the DM is to craft stories and weave magic, NOT hammering down playing styles with use of arbitrary DM handwaves.
The DM can rule out on wacky combos, odd 3pp/splatbook material and unclear rule interpretations, but expecting the DM to handwave major class features "just because" is too much.
I said nothing about hand waving and I apologize if you got that impression. Yes, a DM is supposed to weave stories, that's why I DM, that's why I've been doing so for the better part of two decades. In that time the only times I've seen people go Nova was in high school and middle school when we were all still new to this whole D&D thing and didn't know any better.
I see where there might be a misinterpretation. It lies in my use of the word 'hack'. You're interpreting it as though I'm saying a DM should cut it from his game whereas the intention behind it was like saying 'he couldn't hack it so he left' or more precisely: he couldn't handle the heat so he got out of the kitchen. Your number crunching is nice though rather selective and unrealistic. Mainly in that you used the melee vs. a prepared spell caster type scenario.
I don't like number crunch scenarios, I find it's pointless compared to actual testing, anyone can run numbers but when the dice start to fall in an adventure that's been designed by a DM who knows his players and their characters all that number crunching tends to fly out the window. It might be useful for Pathfinder Society scenarios where things are far more restricted but when the PRPG starts to revolve around the Pathfinder Society is when I start looking for a new fantasy RPG to occupy my shelves. Not that the Society is bad but I'd rather have classic play be the focus than organized (*shudder*) play.
Then again my opinion is just that. Opinion with a little speculation tossed in. I have a player who will begin running a Summoner come Sunday's game wherein I'll discover whether I'll change my tune or just keep on rolling my eyes at the people who crunch numbers. I personally like the summoner class and want to see it in action before I pass judgment. Who knows.
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I too am not a big fan of "laboratory" testing of PCs and their capabilities, but I am also against any "nova" tactics. Or anything that encourages them. The problem with Summoner is that he can nova and still retain his Eidolon, his regular spells and much of his capability (unlike other caster classes, who can nova but are reduced to crossbow or cantrips afterwards.)