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Fun to read. By all means continue.
I know I'm weird, but I find well-written rules stuff fun to read (it evokes imagination of NPC enemies and allies who will use it), so thanks for making the parts of the APG you worked on fun for me to read.
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I have some packing to do for Gencon, but I'll try to do Cave and Desert Druid at least if I get the chance (they take a bit longer because I may have to look closer at the ooze and vermin lists, though my initial hunch from the ones I've looked at so far is that the ooze form will be a novelty for the immunities and the cool thematics and the vermin will probably not add much more than flavour in terms of power). And then third, of course, the powerful Jungle Druid--you'll want her to have your back in the new AP, of that I'm sure.
OK, here's Cave Druid--
Cave Druid: (Mystic and Beastshaper **)
The master of the underground, Cave Druid doesn't get the huge skill and initiative bonuses of the others, probably because underground areas are so common in Pathfinder games that they would be more likely to apply their cave bonuses. They have some fun thematic abilities, but they are probably among the weakest of the new options. It would probably be fine to not lose two levels on Wildshape.
***Cavesense: Knowledge(dungeoneering) is usually more useful than Knowledge(geography) since it covers aberrations and oozes and such, but otherwise this isn't too much of a change from nature sense.
**Nature Bond: Nothing changes for Animal Companion, but if you're doing Domain, Weather is among the best for Druid (while simultaneously being among the worst for Cleric, since they select Domains for different reasons). Darkness is a solid Cleric Domain, but it isn't as good for Druids. The main difference in analysing a Domain for Druid vis-a-vis Cleric is that the Druid doesn't have another Domain to fall back on for spells, so every stinker on the spell list is one the Druid is stuck with every day of their adventuring career.
*Wild Empathy: There are far more magical beasts out there than oozes, so this is less useful than the original
***Tunnelrunner: This is very useful for squeezing, particularly when you are a Large creature in a 5-foot-wide corridor. Depending on the specifics of the campaign this can range from vastly better than Woodland Stride to vastly worse.
***Lightfoot: Not being detectable by Tremorsense is more likely to be useful than Woodland Stride--both suffer from the fact that the rest of your party doesn't have this ability and will be noticed, but at least this one makes you effectively undetectable to creatures that rely mainly on Tremorsense to see.
**Resist Subterranean Corruption: Only +2 to saves, but it applies to aberrations (and also oozes). This is probably more likely to come up than the fey bonus of regular Druids.
*Wild Shape: I've already covered the -2 effective Druid level and getting it at level 6. Losing the ability to turn into a plant is effectively no loss at all. However, gaining the ability to turn into an ooze is also pretty useless. You will be able to move at only 10 feet per round and you won't get any interesting abilities from any of the oozes (if your GM determines that Blindsense is the same as a lesser form of Blindsight, you may get that, I guess, and at the highest levels you can get Resist 20 to some energy types). You don't get natural armour, and the ability grants you poison immunity, which you already have by then. To add insult to injury, spells of the Polymorph subschool do not meld your equipment into your new form as usual if you turn into an Ooze. So....yeah.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
To add insult to injury, spells of the Polymorph subschool do not meld your equipment into your new form as usual if you turn into an Ooze. So....yeah.
What? I apparently missed that memo. If that's so, I should have included a notation that, yes, your stuff DOES meld with your new form when you ooze up. Anything else is silly. Feel free to FAQ tag that to get checked, cuz that is teh lamezorz.
To add insult to injury, spells of the Polymorph subschool do not meld your equipment into your new form as usual if you turn into an Ooze. So....yeah.What? I apparently missed that memo. If that's so, I should have included a notation that, yes, your stuff DOES meld with your new form when you ooze up. Anything else is silly. Feel free to FAQ tag that to get checked, cuz that is teh lamezorz.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
I have no idea why it was listed out like that rather than say "In Humanoid and Monstrous Humanoid forms, you keep your gear, otherwise it melds." or something like that, but there you are.
Also, the Desert Druid--
Desert Druid (Mystic ** , Beastshaper **--raise Mystic by ** and Beastshaper by * if you know you will be playing heavily in desert terrain)
The Desert Druid is very similar to the Arctic Druid, but it has fewer abilities that are useful outside its own terrain and generally weaker abilities. As usual, it kicks ass in the desert.
**Desert Native: Just like Arctic Native, but for deserts. This won't work in other terrain types during certain months of the year, so it's less generally useful, but it's a strong **** in the desert
**Sandwalker: It's like Icewalking, but it gets a lower score because it doesn't let you ignore weather effects like sandstorms as well as applying in fewer situations, still, if you're in a desert a lot, you already have Trackless Step, so you're only gaining here.
*Desert Endurance: Better than Arctic Endurance slightly, since not needing to eat or drink is probably better in my experience than immunity to the rare and wimpy Dazzled effect. Still, desert nights can chill to the bone, so it would have been nice to get a full Endure Elements instead of just heat.
**Wild Shape: You already know about the -2 effective level, so what about being a vermin? Well, you don't care about losing access to plants. My main question is really why Desert Druid gets this ability instead of Blight Druid--a lot of those Vermin aren't really very desert in flavour. Still, I looked through all of them. Nothing that can compete with your top Beast Shape and Elemental Shape forms at the levels you get it. At level 12, you can get three attacks and tremorsense 60 from scorpion or Acid Resist 20 for Giant Slug, but you can do better elsewhere. Still, this is better than the Oozes since if you want a desert-appropriate scorpion or scarab beetle form, at least you can have flying and other useful abilities, rather than being forced to squish around the ground at a snail's pace (with apologies to Giant Snail).
***Shaded Vision: Poison is a lot more common than blinding, though being blinded is usually worse than being poisoned for most poisons. Dazzling doesn't matter much, +2 vs gaze attacks and figment/pattern illusions is a nice addition. The ensemble package is generally still worse than immunity to poison, though. But it's still a useful ability
**Dunemeld: Not as good as Flurry Form overall due to lack of Fly speed, but the ability to Burrow into the sand to avoid Line of Sight/Effect can be useful if you're somewhere where you couldn't squeeze into cover normally. It makes me imagine a tactic of turning into a Scorpion (or Earth Elemental for more power and less flavour) and from there Dunemeld to burrow under the sand, thus giving yourself Tremorsense, Dunemeld benefits, and preparing an ambush. Just like a real desert scorpion, you don't have to come up to eat.
Jungle Druid (Mystic ***, Beastshaper **--raise by * for a campaign where you know there will be a good amount of jungle stuff, like Serpent's Skull)
Jungle Druid's abilities are all very good--better than or equal to those of the regular Druid, but she doesn't get very many of them, so the question becomes, is it worth losing the Wildshape? Let's find out.
**Jungle Guardian: The same as Arctic and Desert Native, another of the Favoured Terrain-style benefits, but for jungle, and you get Climb. If the GM is nice about what constitutes a jungle, this ability is a ***, but given that it has been separated out from deciduous forests, you probably will lose out on a lot of edge cases. If you know you'll be spending a solid amount of time in the jungle (like if you're playing Serpent's Skull), this is a ****
***Woodland Stride: You already have Trackless Step in the jungle, and now you get back Woodland Stride--nice!
***Torrid Endurance: This is an insanely good trade for Resist Nature's Lure. You get Endure Elements to heat and +4 to saves against disease (note--already as good as Desert Endurance or Arctic Endurance). You also get a +4 to saves against animals and magical beasts. Magical beasts is one of the largest categories in the game, and you still get a +4 (compare to the poor cave druid and her +2 vs aberrations and oozes). This is the best replacement for Resist Nature's Lure so far.
**Verdant Sentinel: The disguise potential in a jungle or forest is excellent, particularly since it's at will. You do lose Thousand Faces, but I'd say this is on par unless you're in a city or something.
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Mountain Druid (*** Mystic and Beastshaper, **** for Mystic if you are somehow playing an extremely mountain-heavy game)
The Mountain Druid manages to belay and yodel her way into three stars for the Beastshaper, even when not always in the mountains merely on the strength of the mighty Giant Form and its nigh-infinite regen! It still has the problems with levels 4 and 5, 6 and 7 that I mentioned above, but I decided to round up because I'm not allowing myself to give a half star.
**Mountaineer: The same as Jungle Guardian but for mountains. Mountains seem to me to have less of a chance of being a long-term terrain type in most campaigns than the other terrains so far, so this is less likely to be useful, though they do tend to at least make guest appearances (for instance, Rise of the Runelords goes to a mountain area in two of the adventures, even though it isn't a "mountain adventure path" per se). If your GM doesn't let this apply in hilly terrains. you're screwed, but the Ranger Favoured Terrain feature includes them, so you should be fane. If you somehow know that the campaign revolves around being on mountains a lot, this goes up to ****, as the benefit is crazy-good if it's always on.
**Sure-Footed: Once again, isn't as nice as Icewalking since it doesn't ignore weather.
*Spire Walker: Endure Elements for cold and immunity to altitude sickness isn't great, but the ability to climb without becoming flat-footed is certainly OK, though a normal Druid could just Wildshape and fly by this point. Still, it's only replacing the situational Resist Nature's Lure.
***Wild Shape: These stars don't take into account the loss of two Druid levels, which is detailed above. This section is all about Giant Form. Unlike Ooze and Vermin forms, which did not have their own spells balanced in the core and therefore came out seriously lacking (but there was really no alternative in the space constraints I'd imagine), Giant Form does. And they are good spells for melee sorts. However, Giant Form II only works on Cloud Giant and Storm Giant for now, and those won't really outpace Elemental Form IV, particularly since it only comes at 16th level. You do get the option of wearing non-Wild armour and making iteratives with a big two-handed weapon, but two slams at full bonus at 2d10 damage is competitive (Haste is advantage Giant though). That said, Giant Form I at level 12 to become a Troll and gain Regeneration 5 is pretty huge (well not actually Huge, but still). Troll has good stat boosts, Darkvision, and Rend as well (in fact it has everything possible for Giant Form I except the less-exciting rock-based abilities and energy resistances matched with vulnerabilities). This is the only way that I know of right now to get essentially infinite healing (I believe that you never get the Druid Wild Shape at will capstone due to the -2 effective levels, so it isn't literally infinite, if you are constantly being bombarded with that spell from the APG that forces you back into normal shape or something).
***Mountain Stance: Being immune to petrification probably isn't high on your list of desired immunities, unless you're a 3.5 Frenzied Berserker with Death Ward and a Ring of Counterspells (disintegrate), but it can still be useful--even though it comes up less than poison, you're pretty much boned (or rather, stoned) if you fail the save, so immunity is nice. Getting some serious dwarf-like stability is nice too. A useful and thematic set.
**Mountain Stone: A 7th-level spell at will? Yup, but Statue was never exactly the king of 7th level. This is not as good as the forms that let you still move, but it's clearly as useful as Treeform, if not moreso. You know, this begs the question--the Statue spell itself doesn't really tell you what the bonus is to Stealth / Disguise to not be spotted. I never noticed because I've never seen anyone cast it. Props to Flurry Form and Dunemeld for telling us, and it's clearly the fault of the Statue spell that such information is left out here. So do they just automatically fail to detect the outcropping as the Druid without Detect Magic? That would certainly increase the power.
And I have a 9:30 plane to Gencon, so with that, I'm done for the night.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Regarding the turning into ooze benefits:
In looking at the Core Rules, there IS no spell that lets you change into an ooze (not even shapechange), so the text for core and the PRD may have been written the way it was because it specifically called out only those forms into which you *COULD* turn. Since you couldn't turn into a construct or ooze, for instance, it didn't mention them.
So along comes the APG and some contributing writer puts in a spell that lets you do it after all... and it's an instant corner case because the core/PRD rule text was written prescriptively (what is) instead of proscriptively (what's not).
I'd say the simplest fix is just to assume that the "meld your stuff" rule applies to ANY non-humanoid (with a small h) form and let the Law of Common Sense prevail.
But, it might be good to get an official errata.
Regarding the mountain druid and statue:
Given that the idea for this power is that you turn into a natural rocky outcrop, I almost could've said the effect works like tree shape, just that it LOOKS like rock, but whatev. And yes, word count is always at a premium, esp. when you're doing up a dozen or more alt druids, so when possible you must economize by making specific rule references and letting em go. In this case, the simplest, clearest way to write it is that it works just like the statue spell, except that you look like a chunk of natural rock, not a statue version of yourself.
I'd say that the rocky form you take as a mountain druid is indistinguishable from ordinary stone. Your stealth bonus is irrelevant - you're in plain sight, not hidden in the least - and your disguise bonus is irrelevant - you look just like a rock of your size because you ARE a rock of your size. If someone thinks a medium-sized rock shouldn't be there (or sees the druid turn into it) is free to give it a whack. You don't bleed when you're a rock, so they have no (non-metagame) way to know whether it's really a person or just a rock they are smashing the gneiss out of (though you would detect as magical).
Regarding the turning into ooze benefits:
In looking at the Core Rules, there IS no spell that lets you change into an ooze (not even shapechange), so the text for core and the PRD may have been written the way it was because it specifically called out only those forms into which you *COULD* turn. Since you couldn't turn into a construct or ooze, for instance, it didn't mention them.
So along comes the APG and some contributing writer puts in a spell that lets you do it after all... and it's an instant corner case because the core/PRD rule text was written prescriptively (what is) instead of proscriptively (what's not).
I'd say the simplest fix is just to assume that the "meld your stuff" rule applies to ANY non-humanoid (with a small h) form and let the Law of Common Sense prevail.
But, it might be good to get an official errata.
Regarding the mountain druid and statue:
Given that the idea for this power is that you turn into a natural rocky outcrop, I almost could've said the effect works like tree shape, just that it LOOKS like rock, but whatev. And yes, word count is always at a premium, esp. when you're doing up a dozen or more alt druids, so when possible you must economize by making specific rule references and letting em go. In this case, the simplest, clearest way to write it is that it works just like the statue spell, except that you look like a chunk of natural rock, not a statue version of yourself.
I'd say that the rocky form you take as a mountain druid is indistinguishable from ordinary stone. Your stealth bonus is irrelevant - you're in plain sight, not hidden in the least - and your disguise bonus is irrelevant - you look just like a rock of your size because you ARE a rock of your size. If someone thinks a medium-sized rock shouldn't be there (or sees the druid turn into it) is free to give it a whack. You don't bleed when you're a rock, so they have no (non-metagame) way to know whether it's really a person or just a rock...
I agree with both rulings and had planned to rule them that way myself already in my own games.
Though the reasons why are quite understandable and I wouldn't have made the other call if I was designing the APG, in a way it's a shame that the Ooze Shape (and Vermin Shape) didn't get its own spell, though, so that more Ooze abilities could be granted to the Oozeshaper (rather than the list on Beastshape, few of which Oozes have). Maybe some day, Ooze Shape will be its own spell, it will be mentioned to replace the ability from the APG, and the Cave Druid and his oozy minions shall reign supreme!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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questing about the nature warden, it says "Nature wardens are usually druids or ranger/druids." but in requirements it has favored terrain class feature needed. how does a full druid get favored terrain class feature. Is it in one of the new alt druid clsses.
What is most likely the case is that, when I was writing that PrC, the druid classes were at a stage in their drafting wherein the "terrain druids" all got favored terrain in their chosen terrain, so with that they could qualify. However, the PrC was supposed to encourage druid/ranger multiclassing, and I thought it might be a more interesting and varied route to give each terrain type its own unique and slightly tweaked version of a terrain-mastery-type abilities, so in the end they got that instead of terrain mastery.
Which would mean you'd have to get the ranger in there somewhere, unless somebody else gives you terrain mastery that I'm forgetting.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hey, I (and other contributors and developers and editors) do the best I/we can, but every once in a while a "version confusion" thing like this will pop up. Alas, but the Paizo boards are a nice thing to be able to ask questions and often get them answered by somebody involved in the process, whether or not it's the final, official errata pronouncement.
Rogue Eidolon, hope your flight was uneventful. Im really digging your druid insights. Keep them coming!
Especially considering the best variants (IMO: Plains Druid and Lion Shaman) are yet to come.
Rogue Eidolon, hope your flight was uneventful. Im really digging your druid insights. Keep them coming!Especially considering the best variants (IMO: Plains Druid and Lion Shaman) are yet to come.
Blight druid is my new favorite!
Rogue Eidolon, hope your flight was uneventful. Im really digging your druid insights. Keep them coming!Especially considering the best variants (IMO: Plains Druid and Lion Shaman) are yet to come.
Thanks Joe--back from Gencon, so more of these tomorrow!
Oh, and for the record, I agree with hogarth. My girlfriend played a Lion Shaman at Iron Player Tournament and it was great! (Hells, Dire Tiger is what you wanted to Wild Shape into anyway at level 6, and now you get Pounce right away).
Oh, and for the record, I agree with hogarth. My girlfriend played a Lion Shaman at Iron Player Tournament and it was great! (Hells, Dire Tiger is what you wanted to Wild Shape into anyway at level 6, and now you get Pounce right away).
Yep, and a Young tiger is one of the best things you can summon with SNA III and a Giant tiger is a pretty good SNA V monster, too; summoning as a standard action is just gravy.
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Thanks for coming onto these boards and answering questions about the APG parts, Jason. I love the standard action summon that shamans get at 5th, by the way - they made me decide to make a druid summoner for my new PF game yesterday. Overall I think the druid section was one of the best parts of the book, though the only core class secions I've checked closely so far have been the druid, fighter, and rogue.
And I've already complimented trankmonk on his excellent guides in the Brilliant Gameologist cross-post of this :)
Regarding the shamans, can I check two quick things?
1. Can the shaman types still use wild empathy on other animals, just without the +4 bonus to their special type?
2. Just to clarify since it was mentioned earlier, they still get wild shape at 4th normally, and then at 6th basically wildshape goes -2 for most forms (staying the same) and skips to 8th for your shaman shape?
By the way, as far as feedback goes on the variants, so far the "lion shaman" variant appears to be the strongest choice from 5th to 20th. Standard action summons are quite good and the cats usually dominate the Summon Nature's Ally lists from SNA III to V (and II to VII with the optional templates applied), while a tiger animal companion is as good as they get. It's a bit weaker from 1-4 since you're stuck with a cat AC instead of one of the stronger ones, but the shifting mitigates that a bit.
Here's the next two--Plains and Swamp Druids!
Plains Druid (*** Mystic and Beastshaper, **** for both (yes, even Beastshaper!) if you know you're playing a Plains-Heavy game)
These guys were the ones that struck me would make a great NPC encounter most strongly--I immediately got an image of a group of Plains Druids who live in the savannah and strive to emulate lions--like lions, they have an assault team that is all-female, and they lie low in the grass in ambush only to pounce on unsuspecting foes. I'm still tempted to stat these guys up and almost did so at Gencon for foes in a pick-up game that fell through. Unlike the Mountain Druid, the Plains Druid has a solid *** rating for the Beastshaper (it's a long-term investment though because you're still a sad kitty at levels 4-5). Let's take a look at why you don't mess with the Plains Druid.
***Plains Traveler: Another Favoured Terrainish ability, but this time in the plains--plains are pretty common in most campaigns and I see them as generally pretty default, so it will come in handy more often than some of the others. Increase to **** if you know that it's a plains-heavy game. It's actually sad to see Woodland Stride go, though, as you're about to see just how insane you would be at pounce ambushes if you could charge through natural difficult terrain.
***Run Like the Wind: Extra movement and a once per hour ability to run or charge at double speed? Definitely better than Trackless Step as it helps you outpace your foes in a tracking situation and is useful in many more areas too (plus you already have Trackless Step in plains). And to make matters even better, you can give the benefit to your companion if you ride a companion, thus making plains-based Horse Nomad druids or Halfling Outrider druids very happy to have an ability that still helps them. This is less useful at higher levels for the Wild Mystic who will probably always be flying instead of walking.
***Savanna Ambush: You automatically gain concealment when prone, so that's a guaranteed 20% miss chance against you unless the foe negates concealment and you negate enemy sneak attacks unless the Rogue has that new feat. You can also just go prone and hide pretty much anywhere natural, even with no cover, which makes you like an Aiel from Wheel of Time as far as appearing out of nowhere (especially when you add the bonus to Stealth). Being able to stand as an immediate action in the surprise round is pretty much a necessary addition to make the idea work for meleers (otherwise yeah, you'll get surprise, but you'll have to spend that round standing up), but Wild Mystic can just stay down until he decides to fly away). This is basically akin to Hide in Plain Sight (pardon the pun) in natural environments.
****Canny Charger: This is one of the best abilities gained by any Druid variant in the book. Ignoring allies and making one turn allows pounces with great frequency (the only real thing left to stop you is difficult terrain), and the bonus against enemies who charge you is just gravy. Granted Venom Immunity is a useful ability, but this one is definitely better for the Beastshaper, who gains Pounce at the very next level when she turns into a Dire Tiger. The Wild Mystic will probably never charge, so it's only ** for him.
***Evasion: Evasion is a classy ability, but this only narrowly avoids being ** due to the fact that you don't have strong Reflex save, so it won't help you as often as any of the other classes that have Evasion. Still, it's better than Thousand Faces since it helps during Wild Shape.
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Swamp Druid: (**** Mystic, ** Beastshaper or *** Beastshaper if you know the game will spend a large portion of time in a swamp)
Swamp Druids enjoy the best level 13 ability of any of the variants--can this help them weather the storm for their other abilities? For the Wild Mystic, yes! It's a late-game build anyway, and being a bit slow to the Wildshape game is made up for by the amazing Slippery ability (which saves you from buying the must-have item Ring of Freedom of Movement to help the squishier mystic avoid the typical caster blues).
**Marshwight: The swamp version of the Favoured Terrainish Druid abilities. Swamps are generally pretty rare, but they're usually very dangerous when encountered. If your game is somehow staying longterm in a swamp, this ability is **** instead.
***Swamp Strider: Getting both bog and undergrowth is nice to get your Woodland Stride, as that can help in non-swamp areas as well. This is still a strictly weaker *** than the ones than the Jungle Druid gets though.
**Pond Scum: You get saves against disease and monstrous humanoids, and considering how few monstrous humanoids there are, it's pretty ho-hum. Still, monstrous humanoids do tend to have abilities with save DCs at least (since brutish humanoid monstrosities are usually just humanoid [giant] instead). The DR versus swarms is flavourful, as it allows high-level Swamp Druids to walk through low-level swarms unmolested. Swarms aren't really annoying for doing overwhelming damage, however, so this ability is mainly useful once it has the chance to negate the damage to nothing and remove added effects, which is usually means the swarm is little challenge anyway.
****Slippery: Freedom of Movement continuously? Score!
****Slippery: Freedom of Movement continuously? Score!
It's a great ability, but note that you can get it from a ring (likewise with the Plains Druid's evasion) or from a fairly long-term buff (2+ hours).
****Slippery: Freedom of Movement continuously? Score!It's a great ability, but note that you can get it from a ring (likewise with the Plains Druid's evasion) or from a fairly long-term buff (2+ hours).
True enough--still, the ring is pretty expensive, even at level 13. If there was an item that granted, say, all the abilities of Mountain Stance, I'd still price it lower. Also, it's very very important that Slippery is Ex. Thus, the dragon-tactic of AMF + Grapple won't cut it. I probably should have added that to my analysis.
So here's Urban Druid and Lion Shaman, leaving only one Druid left to do, more-or-less (the non-lion animal shamans are pretty similar in their tradeoffs and gains and can be handled in one rundown). Whew, should be able to finish this easily before I head out to Japan--
Urban Druid (* Mystic and Beastshaper both, ** Mystic very situationally, maybe somewhere where having any animals around at all, companion or summoned or Wildshaped, is not allowed or possible)
The Urban Druid is a very different animal than any of the others--in fact, you might say that the fact that Urban Druid is such a terrible choice for the two iconic Druid builds is a partial sign of success in design, since the two iconic builds are not very "urban" in feel. However, you don't gain anything slam dunk here to make it stand alone as powerful on its own. It's still interesting, but I think a standard druid is probably a better choice even in an urban environment. Even if you agree with me that this one druid variant is very weak, this has still been an amazingly good record so far compared to pretty much any book published in 3.5 of options that are balanced in the middle while expanding your choices with flavourful powers.
*Nature Bond: You heard what I thought about getting the domain instead of the animal in Blight Druid above. This happens here again. This time, you lose the typical Druid domains except Weather, and you gain a bevy of new choices instead that work better for an urban feel. Much like the Blight Druid, you're missing out by not having the Animal Companion, particularly with the Beastshaper. As for domain choice, you need to choose wisely and pick a domain that has spells you'll want to spam, as you'll see below.
*Spontaneous Casting: You lose the spontaneous SNA to gain spontaneity for the domain that you took above instead of getting an animal companion. Even though this potentially gives you unlimited casting of spells from off the Druid list, this is worse than it seems. First of all, summoning spells are always solid spells that you might legitimately want to spam, whereas even the best domains have filler spells at some spell levels. Second of all, the spontaneous SNA is useful the moment you cast your first SNA of the day (since you didn't prepare any of them). However, because the Urban Druid only has a single domain, the spontaneous domain casting is only useful the second time each day that you cast a duplicate of one of your domain spells (since you are forced to prepare one of each every day despite your spontaneity). Based on this and other weaknesses of the Urban Druid, I'd recommend giving two domains to the Urban Druid, only one of which is spontaneous.
**Lorekeeper: You get Diplomacy and the city Knowledge skills as class skills as well as a +2 to the four of them. This is roughly equivalent to two of the +2/+2 skill feats (the fact that they become class skills easily cancels the fact that the bonus doesn't improve to +4 at level 10), and you pay for it with Woodland Stride and Trackless Step. Woodland Stride would be a must-have feat if it was available as a feat in all but the most natureless of games, but if you're an Urban Druid, maybe it's all urban like Council of Thieves, so maybe you lost almost nothing for this.
**Resist Temptation: A +2 bonus versus all divinations and enchantments is much better than +4 versus fey in most campaigns. However, this ability is quite antisynergistic with Mental Strength, which will make you immune to pretty much every enchantment anyway.
***A Thousand Faces: This ability is extremely good at 6th level, particularly because of their massive Wildshape nerfage. You can use it to get a bit of Strength or Dex while gaining Darkvision or Low-Light Vision. This only avoids **** because of the reason why it will be so useful to you--
*Wild Shape: --and that's because you can't Wildshape until level 8. Not only that, you get a constant -4 to your access to Wildshape abilities, double the penalty of most of the other druid variants. Normal Druids get their Wildshape a level before Wizards get the equivalent Beast Shape. The variants with -2 get their Wildshape the same level as Sorcerers get the equivalent Beast Shape. By the time you get your Wildshape, Wizards have playing around with the same toy for three whole levels. This is particularly bad for the Beastshaper, who is pretty much not an option for Urban Druid.
****Mental Strength: Immunity to both charms and compulsions is a very strong ability, since this covers pretty much all Enchantments, including some very nasty ones. It's definitely better than Poison Immunity. Too bad it makes much of Resist Temptation obsolete.
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Lion Shaman (Beastshaper and Mystic both a solid ****)
Lion Shamans are probably the best Druid variant overall, though Plains Druid can give it a run for its money on the plains. This is mainly because cats are some of the best summons and companions to have anyway, so the restrictions on this variant are barely restrictions at all, and the abilities gained are substantial.
***Nature Bond: If you choose a domain, you lose the good ones for Druids and gain a few new choices, many of which make you randomly good against undead. However, since you're going for an Animal Companion, you are forced to pick the lion. Fortunately, this is more-or-less the best choice from level 7 onward and is not bad before that point either. This gets a *** rating, despite not being a boost, due to the fact that the ability is meant to be a restriction, but it doesn't hurt much.
**Wild Empathy: You can do it as a full-round action with a +4 vs felines. This lets you actually use it to stop an imminent fight, and you don't lose anything for it, so sure, why not?
**Totem Transformation: Speed, senses, or attacks, and speaking to cats. Minute per level per day, so not a huge boon, especially since it can't be used with Wildshape, but it's nice and flavourful, and it costs you nothing.
****Totemic Summons: Standard action summons of cats alone is wonderful. More hit points are nice, but honestly, if the monsters are bashing your summons to the point that you need to worry about the extra hit points, you've already won, since they're focusing too much of their attention away from the real threats. Putting things like Young Tiger and Giant Tiger on your list is wonderful, particularly since this adds more targets for the other benefits. As an aside to all of these Shamans, you will almost always want the Giant animal instead of the Advanced animal, since the extra size category will be worth the loss of mental stats and DCs (which most animals don't care about, though the Serpent Shaman is a potential exception sometimes, I guess). Use the Advanced animal when you have no space for the Giant one.
***Wild Shape: You get Wildshape as normal at level 4, then at level 6, you get -2 for non-cat and +2 for cats. Surprisingly, though there are still some issues with the restrictions here for the Wild Mystic (for whom this is a **), this is actually a boon at several crucial levels for some Beastshaper builds that use Pounce + Grab for grappling, since it gives you Rake immediately at level 6 when you first get Dire Tiger, rather than waiting two levels. The fact of the matter is, Dire Tiger is the best choice at level 6 for melee circumstances anyway, so you aren't really limited at that level. This will still hurt if you need something that can fly, since you'll still be two levels behind. By eliminating the crucial low-level vulnerability of the other Druid variants (no Wildshape 4-5), this significant strengthens the Lion Shaman's position and single-handedly undercuts the Plains Druid for the lion-loving Beastshaper.
***Bonus Feat: You eventually get three feats instead of Poison Immunity. They will probably be Dodge, Iron Will, and Improved Iron Will, which makes the Beastshaper happy, since she dumped Wisdom relative to a normal druid, and she's too feat-starved to select these normally. Still, Poison Immunity is pretty impressive, so it's a close call.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Thanks for coming onto these boards and answering questions about the APG parts, Jason. I love the standard action summon that shamans get at 5th, by the way - they made me decide to make a druid summoner for my new PF game yesterday. Overall I think the druid section was one of the best parts of the book, though the only core class secions I've checked closely so far have been the druid, fighter, and rogue.
And I've already complimented trankmonk on his excellent guides in the Brilliant Gameologist cross-post of this :)
Regarding the shamans, can I check two quick things?
1. Can the shaman types still use wild empathy on other animals, just without the +4 bonus to their special type?
Yes.
2. Just to clarify since it was mentioned earlier, they still get wild shape at 4th normally, and then at 6th basically wildshape goes -2 for most forms (staying the same) and skips to 8th for your shaman shape?
No.
You get no wild shaping at all at 4th and 5th (though you can do your totem transformation). At 6th level you start getting WS, at 4th-level equivalent for non-totem shapes and 8th-level equiv for your totem type.
On re-reading the text for the animal shamans, though, which is all the same, I am noticing that for some reason I phrased it differently here than in all the terrain druids.
For the terrain druids, it explicitly states that you GET the ability at 6th, and it is +2/-2.
For the animal shamans, it says at 6th level you GET the modifier of +2/-2.
Which creates a sort of weird thing where you would get WS at 4th, get better at it at 5th, then GET WORSE AT IT at 6th (as it relates to non-totem animals).
They SHOULD work the same way. As in: You get no WS at 4th-5th. Starting at 6th, you get WS (+2 totem/-2 non-totem).
My apologies for a strange bit of phraseological confusion between the two. I'm going to flag this one for the FAQ.
Thanks for coming onto these boards and answering questions about the APG parts, Jason. I love the standard action summon that shamans get at 5th, by the way - they made me decide to make a druid summoner for my new PF game yesterday. Overall I think the druid section was one of the best parts of the book, though the only core class secions I've checked closely so far have been the druid, fighter, and rogue.
And I've already complimented trankmonk on his excellent guides in the Brilliant Gameologist cross-post of this :)
Regarding the shamans, can I check two quick things?
1. Can the shaman types still use wild empathy on other animals, just without the +4 bonus to their special type?
Yes.
2. Just to clarify since it was mentioned earlier, they still get wild shape at 4th normally, and then at 6th basically wildshape goes -2 for most forms (staying the same) and skips to 8th for your shaman shape?No.
You get no wild shaping at all at 4th and 5th (though you can do your totem transformation). At 6th level you start getting WS, at 4th-level equivalent for non-totem shapes and 8th-level equiv for your totem type.
On re-reading the text for the animal shamans, though, which is all the same, I am noticing that for some reason I phrased it differently here than in all the terrain druids.
For the terrain druids, it explicitly states that you GET the ability at 6th, and it is +2/-2.
For the animal shamans, it says at 6th level you GET the modifier of +2/-2.
Which creates a sort of weird thing where you would get WS at 4th, get better at it at 5th, then GET WORSE AT IT at 6th (as it relates to non-totem animals).
They SHOULD work the same way. As in: You get no WS at 4th-5th. Starting at 6th, you get WS (+2 totem/-2 non-totem).
My apologies for a strange bit of phraseological confusion between the two. I'm going to flag this one for the FAQ.
That makes a lot more sense. Here I thought you just didn't get wild shape till 6 at all, no totem change or anything. Suddenly the Lion shaman doesn't seem so bad.
Thanks for coming onto these boards and answering questions about the APG parts, Jason. I love the standard action summon that shamans get at 5th, by the way - they made me decide to make a druid summoner for my new PF game yesterday. Overall I think the druid section was one of the best parts of the book, though the only core class secions I've checked closely so far have been the druid, fighter, and rogue.
And I've already complimented trankmonk on his excellent guides in the Brilliant Gameologist cross-post of this :)
Regarding the shamans, can I check two quick things?
1. Can the shaman types still use wild empathy on other animals, just without the +4 bonus to their special type?
Yes.
2. Just to clarify since it was mentioned earlier, they still get wild shape at 4th normally, and then at 6th basically wildshape goes -2 for most forms (staying the same) and skips to 8th for your shaman shape?No.
You get no wild shaping at all at 4th and 5th (though you can do your totem transformation). At 6th level you start getting WS, at 4th-level equivalent for non-totem shapes and 8th-level equiv for your totem type.
On re-reading the text for the animal shamans, though, which is all the same, I am noticing that for some reason I phrased it differently here than in all the terrain druids.
For the terrain druids, it explicitly states that you GET the ability at 6th, and it is +2/-2.
For the animal shamans, it says at 6th level you GET the modifier of +2/-2.
Which creates a sort of weird thing where you would get WS at 4th, get better at it at 5th, then GET WORSE AT IT at 6th (as it relates to non-totem animals).
They SHOULD work the same way. As in: You get no WS at 4th-5th. Starting at 6th, you get WS (+2 totem/-2 non-totem).
My apologies for a strange bit of phraseological confusion between the two. I'm going to flag this one for the FAQ.
Glad to be of FAQ service!
I enjoy analysing and fiddling with game design, so if my little analysis of these druids helps makes the rules tighterin APG second printing, then even if nobody uses it to choose druid archetypes, it's time well spent as far as I'm concerned.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Thanks for coming onto these boards and answering questions about the APG parts, Jason. I love the standard action summon that shamans get at 5th, by the way - they made me decide to make a druid summoner for my new PF game yesterday. Overall I think the druid section was one of the best parts of the book, though the only core class secions I've checked closely so far have been the druid, fighter, and rogue.
And I've already complimented trankmonk on his excellent guides in the Brilliant Gameologist cross-post of this :)
Regarding the shamans, can I check two quick things?
1. Can the shaman types still use wild empathy on other animals, just without the +4 bonus to their special type?
Yes.
2. Just to clarify since it was mentioned earlier, they still get wild shape at 4th normally, and then at 6th basically wildshape goes -2 for most forms (staying the same) and skips to 8th for your shaman shape?No.
You get no wild shaping at all at 4th and 5th (though you can do your totem transformation). At 6th level you start getting WS, at 4th-level equivalent for non-totem shapes and 8th-level equiv for your totem type.
On re-reading the text for the animal shamans, though, which is all the same, I am noticing that for some reason I phrased it differently here than in all the terrain druids.
For the terrain druids, it explicitly states that you GET the ability at 6th, and it is +2/-2.
For the animal shamans, it says at 6th level you GET the modifier of +2/-2.
Which creates a sort of weird thing where you would get WS at 4th, get better at it at 5th, then GET WORSE AT IT at 6th (as it relates to non-totem animals).
They SHOULD work the same way. As in: You get no WS at 4th-5th. Starting at 6th, you get WS (+2 totem/-2 non-totem).
My apologies for a strange bit of phraseological confusion between the two. I'm going to flag this one for the FAQ.
That makes a lot more sense. Here I thought you just didn't get wild shape till 6 at all, no totem change or anything. Suddenly the Lion shaman doesn't seem so bad.
The totem transformation is separate from wild shape. You get your minutes of TT independently and they aren't affected by WS at all.
As clearly as possible, how it should work is:
Level 1: Nothing
Level 2-5: Totem transformation
Level 6+: TT and wild shape (+2 totem/-2 non)
Also: Yes, a lion shaman could turn into a Huge tiger at 6th level, but could not turn into any kind of anything at 4th-5th (except for the partial changes allowed with the totem transformation).
Am I wrong in thinking that Eagle Shaman would make a pretty great Mystic? I'd think it would be above an average one, anyway...
I can't really think of anything that an Eagle Shaman would do better than a regular shaman. I guess the ability to fly at level 5 is handy, but by level 6 a normal druid can fly around as an air elemental all day, basically. The bird summons from the Summon Nature's Ally list aren't that great either (well, maybe a Young or Giant Roc would be interesting, but that's pretty late in the game).
. . . Also: Yes, a lion shaman could turn into a Huge tiger at 6th level, but could not turn into any kind of anything at 4th-5th (except for the partial changes allowed with the totem transformation).
The salient point to me is that you can make a dire tiger huge! I thought you had to find a huge animal that was better than the dire tiger. So druids (not just Lion Shaman although that is what I am going to be playing) can increase whatever animal they wish to the largest (and logically the smallest) size they are capable of shaping into?
I agree that the terrain druids were mostly pretty boring, although the Plains Druid showed some creativity in the powers chosen. Mostly, I thought they screamed: "Looking for an NPC for your mountain/arctic/desert/underwater module? Look no further!"
Whether you think they're a big step down in terms of power depends on how much your druid uses wild shape, I imagine. My most memorable druid character rarely used wild shape at all (preferring to use scrolls and wands, for instance). Personally, I think most of them are mildly weaker, but still within the ballpark of other classes.
I don't know. It seems as though every one of these druid variants, with the exception of the Lion Shaman if one wanted to play a melee druid, is a powerdown from regular druid, and they're not even that interesting! Rogue Eidolon gave out far too many stars.
What I liked about the ranger variants, for instance, is that someone obviously put a lot of thought into how one might actually change the class...swapping out good abilities for different good abilities, so a number of them would be workable in a lot of campaigns. I read that chapter thinking "Wow, that DOES seem different."
What do we get with druids? There are two new archetypes with multiple slightly different flavours. The 'terrain' druids, when you get down to it, are all pretty similar except in their descriptor, and they are identical in being crappy when you don't happen to spend a long time in one specific terrain type. Arctic Druid - are you kidding me?? Who has an arctic campaign? Sure, I know, someone is probably interested in it, but for the rest of us, it's space-filler in the book. The shamans I think are slightly better, since they have a modicum of versatility, but come on...who wants to spend all their time in a serpent wildshape? I was trying to like the Eagle Shaman (for a Wild Mystic), but this recent revelation that you have to wait until 6th level to wildshape pretty much kills it. There is nothing there worth the two-level wait for wildshape plus the loss of poison immunity, and even a thousand faces is probably better than standard-action summon for eagles (until you get to rocs at VII).
Disappointment.
In Cambodia at the moment (damn we could use a Jungle Druid right now!), but remember, I think the standard Druid is ****, so anything that got less than that is probably less powerful.
~RE
Treantmonk - Great guide.
I was just wondering if you've had a chance to look over the critters in Bestiary 2 yet?
It looks like Allosaurus would make a great replacement for Dire Tiger at level 8.
don't rule out the Hippo, trample is fun for packs, and the hippo has 15feet reach for 4d8 :o
i did a 62 crit vital strike last week (at level 8)
12d8 + 15 is good m'kay
(STR in huge 32, 22 to start with, +4 belt, +6 shape)
OK, this may seem like newb\munchkin questions, but here goes.
I'm thinking about shifting from a Rogue to a Druid in a long-term game that I play in, and I haven't looked closely at Druids since 3.5, so some of the Wildshape changes are a bit arcane to me.
When the abilities refer to "natural attacks," what is defined as the limit of an attack?
For instance, if you are 'Shaped as a plant that would normally have a "Spores" rider (i.e. the Basidirond)that is included in a slam attack (Melee slam +10 (1d8+7 plus spores) in this case), you clearly get the slam, but is the "spores" part included as part of that Natural Attack?
If it were "poison" you would clearly... I suppose the same thing holds for things like "Swallow Whole" - which I'm actually rather surprised not to see listed as a clearly specified attack type. Its quite common among larger critters.
Again, it seems to me that the obvious answer is no, you don't get them because they are not attack types that are specifically delineated in the Spell descriptions, but I don't want to short-change myself.
Similarly, are the new Elemental types listed in the Bestiary 2 options for Elemental Wildshape?
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For instance, if you are 'Shaped as a plant that would normally have a "Spores" rider (i.e. the Basidirond)that is included in a slam attack (Melee slam +10 (1d8+7 plus spores) in this case), you clearly get the slam, but is the "spores" part included as part of that Natural Attack?If it were "poison" you would clearly... I suppose the same thing holds for things like "Swallow Whole" - which I'm actually rather surprised not to see listed as a clearly specified attack type. Its quite common among larger critters.
Again, it seems to me that the obvious answer is no, you don't get them because they are not attack types that are specifically delineated in the Spell descriptions, but I don't want to short-change myself.
You only get the attack itself, not additional effects like poison, trip or spores (unless those are among the abilities you gain access too)
Similarly, are the new Elemental types listed in the Bestiary 2 options for Elemental Wildshape?
No, you only have access to the classic elementals. The same goes for dragons.
Cool. That stands to reason, thanks.
I like to know where the borders are, so I know when to wave as I blast past them...
I was looking at the new Druid spells in the APG, and some of them look quite tasty - Bristle in particular, looks like a nice alternative for Magic Fang at low levels (reducing Nat Arm for Damage bonus, scales nicely as your summons' get better) and some of the new "water pushing" spells like like good battlefield control.
I know that these guides are a labor of love, and I don't want to be that guy who pressures people into doing stuff obnoxiously, but is there any guess on an update on the Chapter 3 for the new spells?
Tendriculous: Regenerating huge plant creature. Kinda b*!&+@$s for grappling without swallow whole or acid or paralysis, but it would at least be free post-combat self-healing.
@TREANTMONK
Hey. Just a quick thing. I know the Format of your guides is pretty much set in stone, but would it be possible to change either the Green or the Red to something else.
While I'm not that interested in making every character I play super optimised, I do find your guides very useful. The biggest problem with them however is as a colour blind individual, telling the difference between red and green is eye hurtingly difficult.
I was looking at the new Druid spells in the APG, and some of them look quite tasty...
Yes I love strong jaw, seriously massive amounts of damage when in huge elemental form.
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While i was playing around with the druid archtypes i notice that if you take the rage domain as a blight druid you can enter the rage prophet PrC at lvl 10 with just one lvl of oracle a keep going forward with your druid spellcasting on the PrC.
Has anyone tried this for a spirit of the beast (beastmaster) build?
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The spell-advancement would have to be on the class that qualifies you for the PrC.
Nope.
Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If he had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a rage prophet, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I don't suppose anyone has noticed that according to the rules, a wild shield allows you to apply your armor bonus normally, but it makes no mention of the shield bonus at all.
The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
Emphasis mine.
If you're following the rules, a druid wearing +1 hide armor (+5 AC) and wearing a +1 wild heavy wooden shield (+3 AC) would indeed retain both his armor bonus (by virtue of the shield's special ability) and the shield bonus (by virtue of it being a shield bonus).
Honestly, I have no problem with this; and that's speaking as a GM. While it may make little sense, it doesn't seem to contradict anything in the existing rules.
If these notes have been addressed, sorry, as I skipped to posting to make note of them.