I wholeheartedly agree with you. 5 level PrCs are interesting and flavorful. There was 3 level PrC in an AP (maybe the jusitcar?) which was a nice little dip into flavor
Shorter prcs make more sense to me as a regional specialty or instance of unique training.
Sigurd
Nothing really to add here other than I agree.
I like the idea of short prestige classes much more easy to take in.
I prefer shorter prestige classes as well, but I feel they should be more difficult to get into or simply be weaker (in a sense). Going into any PrC means you won't get your class's capstone (no issue for clerics/druids), which is something to consider when crafting them.
Shorter prcs make more sense to me as a regional specialty or instance of unique training.
Sigurd
+1
I would prefer to see a PrC that way with some sort of requirement other than Knowledge(Lore) 5 Ranks, can cast 3rd level Arcane spells, etc.I would like to see them tied in with affiliations (PHB2?) so you have to "do" something to qualify rather than just have a set of skills.
So a PC just can't suddenly decide to become an assassin overnight but works his way towards that PrC in a roleplaying way. I know the argument is that is what the PC is doing but IMO it just seems too mechanical.
So a PC just can't suddenly decide to become an assassin overnight but works his way towards that PrC in a roleplaying way. I know the argument is that is what the PC is doing but IMO it just seems too mechanical.
The mechanics are too mechanical? :)
All joking aside, it's no different than multiclassing, and no less awkward. Many DMs I've run with flat out refuse to allow a character to pursue a PrC without exploring it in a roleplaying setting (being gifted by your god, finding a mentor, having a breakthrough after research and training). I like the idea of including it as suggestion, but I prefer DMs to really run with it.
So a PC just can't suddenly decide to become an assassin overnight but works his way towards that PrC in a roleplaying way. I know the argument is that is what the PC is doing but IMO it just seems too mechanical.The mechanics are too mechanical? :)
All joking aside, it's no different than multiclassing, and no less awkward. Many DMs I've run with flat out refuse to allow a character to pursue a PrC without exploring it in a roleplaying setting (being gifted by your god, finding a mentor, having a breakthrough after research and training). I like the idea of including it as suggestion, but I prefer DMs to really run with it.
It is my pet hate.
As a DM I find it annoying that a player will suddenly announce that his PC will become a *insert PrC here* without even as much as a hint that the PC was heading that way. If I can use the assassin as an example why would the guild allow someone who just walked in off the streets and said "I'm evil, got Disguise and Stealth Skills and here is the head of someone I just killed to join" and then spill all their secrets?Maybe its my problem. I roleplay my way into PrC and if I multiclass, my fighter PC will say that he is reading through the Wizards spellbook and asking the PC Wiz how he does things.
I see affiliations as way to encourage roleplaying and a less contrived way of entering a PrC. I'm not saying any other way is wrong, I just don't like it.
I'd also like to see PrCs that are from 3 to 5 levels. Just like in RL, you're always going to come across individuals that seem to have an odd combination of talents / skills and that's because they have those types of interests and decided to excel in them. The way I look at it, it's a simple expansion of rage options for the barbarian or talents for the rogue. If not a PrC, call it an affiliation level or something to that effect where it can be seen where it is something to 'dip' into before going back on track with your previous base class and/or heading out into something else.
It is my pet hate.
As a DM I find it annoying that a player will suddenly announce that his PC will become a *insert PrC here* without even as much as a hint that the PC was heading that way. If I can use the assassin as an example why would the guild allow someone who just walked in off the streets and said "I'm evil, got Disguise and Stealth Skills and here is the head of someone I just killed to join" and then spill all their secrets?Maybe its my problem. I roleplay my way into PrC and if I multiclass, my fighter PC will say that he is reading through the Wizards spellbook and asking the PC Wiz how he does things.
I see affiliations as way to encourage roleplaying and a less contrived way of entering a PrC. I'm not saying any other way is wrong, I just don't like it.
For me, it greatly depends on what PrC the player is taking levels in. Not all PrC's are affiliated with some organization, some are simply alternate fighting styles or ways of using magic. I agree, that if a player just up an announces they are now a Purple Dragon Knight or something I would intervene, but some characters are just working their way up in their own way. Exotic Weapon Specialists strike me this way.
I think 10-level classes force too much spreading out of abilities. A good, focused class should be done in 3, so you can get back to your base class without too much trouble.
I agree that there's nothing worse than stretching 3 or 5 levels' worth of abilities over 10 levels. Three-level prestige classes seem a little short, though. Five levels is just about right for most of them, I think.
So a PC just can't suddenly decide to become an assassin overnight but works his way towards that PrC in a roleplaying way. I know the argument is that is what the PC is doing but IMO it just seems too mechanical.The mechanics are too mechanical? :)
All joking aside, it's no different than multiclassing, and no less awkward. Many DMs I've run with flat out refuse to allow a character to pursue a PrC without exploring it in a roleplaying setting (being gifted by your god, finding a mentor, having a breakthrough after research and training). I like the idea of including it as suggestion, but I prefer DMs to really run with it.
It is my pet hate.
As a DM I find it annoying that a player will suddenly announce that his PC will become a *insert PrC here* without even as much as a hint that the PC was heading that way. If I can use the assassin as an example why would the guild allow someone who just walked in off the streets and said "I'm evil, got Disguise and Stealth Skills and here is the head of someone I just killed to join" and then spill all their secrets?Maybe its my problem. I roleplay my way into PrC and if I multiclass, my fighter PC will say that he is reading through the Wizards spellbook and asking the PC Wiz how he does things.
I see affiliations as way to encourage roleplaying and a less contrived way of entering a PrC. I'm not saying any other way is wrong, I just don't like it.
I agree. Even characters in my campaigns who want to multiclass have to show some role playing BEFORE they spend the XP to level up.
(I have 2 rogues in my campaign right now, both of whom are going to multiclass: 1 as Fighter Rogue, one as Ranger Rogue. The F/R spent time training with his weapon (Scythe) and even bought a dog to train with before he leveled up and got enough skill points to take Animal Handling... The Ranger Rogue has been using Survival and his bow a LOT and he should level up this week. It's not much, but they are showing how they plan to get the next class.
PrC should be the same way. Show some in game training and connection with the PrC before just jumping into it...
You know, its funny,
While I agree that we need some 5 level PrCs, I think there also needs to be some 15 level PrCs. Like the Black Guard, what is a Black Guard to do if they became one at level 5? There is no class for him to go into. He is obviously going to continue on being a Black Guard, why couldn't it be 15 levels? or 14, or at least something 13 levels?
I'm not sure about 15 levels of a Prc, but I am not against 10 level PrCs. I just think there should be more 5 and 3 level ones that give your character a little different flavor, almost like having a couple of alternative class features just with more flavor
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PATHFINDER RPG NEEDS TO BREAK THROUGH THE GOOFINESS OF PrCs.
Issue: They're generally wonky, goofy, and much unused.
Background: We've always had them. GMs would give PCs extra powers/ability/prestige when they did something contextually in-the-fabric-of-the-campaign. (i.e. +2 to negotiation, +6 tracking within home town, magic power of extra cantrips or whatnot, bonus feat related to previous heroics). This goes as far back as I can remember... OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3e, etc.
PrC Issue: They're really just illustrations for a GM to learn about structuring progressive power enchantments + flavorful detail (useful). The requirements are wonky, especially if unrelated to the context of the GM's game. Players wish to trade line-item feats anyhow, books seem to retype those same *next level casting ability charts over and over and over again. Past PrC weren't substantive, or really COMPROMISED the class character concepts, with players feeling like they traded more for less or lost out on developing in the core or base class.
Suggestion: Mr. Gobachev, Tear Down This Wall.
Re-vamp this system into an a-la-carte book for good GMs to adjudicate the "builds" of PrCs in their home campaigns. Do not exactly quantify the requirements and level enchantments, but instead provide them as level-categorized lists by level of intensity/power. In this way, GMs can easily "whip up" a prestige class, instead of labour over it.
Advantage to PAIZO: Chance to do something better than v.3.5 while still being consistent with it. Goodness knows I already have 800 PrCs listed in my v.3.5/d20 collection, and more of this has little interest to many gamers I know. The chance to innovate while maintaining backward-compatibility could be a BIG hit. I don't claim to have the detail, that's for the esteemed designers to complete.
Use Case: Joey is a GM who loves the idea of Prestige Classes but disliked the wonky/goofy/laborious system. Joey can run his PCs up to 6th or 9th level, and place each on a "specialized-prestige-track". This track would run concurrent with their existing Pathfinder RPG class. Because Jason Bulmahn made all the classes interesting at all levels 1-20 in Pathfinder RPG, the idea of prestige is still beneficial, but less of a "class change" and more of a concurrent "prestige track." Joey decides that Moluvia the Wizard has dealt with the Cult of Green Death frequently enough in-game story context, that Joey provides Moluvia:
>Bonus cantrip of "Frightening Noise" because Moluvia has learned the art of haunting distractions
>Immunity to Fear because Moluvia is not afraid in the face of death
>+2 to Skill Check for Perception because Moluvia has seen both the living and the incorporeal enough to spot spectres well
And thats maybe the base "kit".
Joey looks in his Pathfinder RPG Gamemastery Prestige Book I, and sees the suggested point value for a prestige progression is as follows:
>L1 Tntry Prestige Track - 3+1 per prime attribute bonus (i.e. Wis for clerics, INT for Mage etc.)
>L2-4 Tier II Prestige Track: 1 + 1 per bonus
>L5-7 Tier III Prestige Track: 2 + 1 per bonus
>L8-12 Tier IV Prestige Track: 3 + 1 per bonus
>L13+: Tier V Prestige Track: 1 selection from Tier V Prestige List.
I envision such a book containing all the PAIZO goodness of skills, feats, 1/2 feats, racial specialities, prestige focus specialties, powers su/ex/etc., and extra abilities such as DR, SR etc. Basically everything we had in v.3.5 that was OGL for such a thing, but the application of each becomes TREMENDOUSLY EASIER and more relevant to the GM's actual campaign story or Pathfinder RPG Adventure Path.
Thank you for indulging me in this opinion and suggestion.
-Pax
I prefer 10-level prestige classes.
In fact, I prefer to see prestige classes and regular classes as open ended, so a Blackguard, for example, who gets to 10th level, can continue to gain an 11th and 12th level, et cetera, if she so chooses. For a 5-level PrC, I would allow a PC or NPC to gain a 6th or 7th level.
Which is why I prefer 10-level PrCs. There is a lot less chance of running past the end of the PrC with 10 levels than there is with only 5 levels. Statistically, the odds of finding any 9th or 10th level Blackgaurds on a particular world is close to nil.