Or fix the ability since its a playtest. instead of covering your ears and saying nyah nyah nothings wrong. The difference is you can take any other class one level and all your missing out on is the advancement of your abilities, take one level of oracle and your getting a screw you. And my player isn't taking one level he's taking four for a character concept and your answers is well he should be punished for it.then do not take the class, you know going in it has a curse trying to over come it by multiclassing is kinda odd. Its a class feature just like any other. Class features do not stack with non class level
It improves as you level as a reward for sticking with the class and increasing your power. I am not sure why you think a class ability would improve for being an oracle 1/fighter 15 any more then a wizard 1/fighter 15 would
If you're so concerned about CV and Deaf, take Tongues or Wasting. Wasting practically has no drawback. Tongues only prevents use of a select handful of spells that have never been necessary to playing a Cleric successfully, let alone someone who can opt out of taking them.
Indeed the clouded vision can be a bit unfair to Half-orc and dwarf oracles.(Using just core races here) I would suggest doubling their darkvision.
Doubling darkvision would be useless, they can't see beyond 30 feet anyway. Instead, I'd suggest allowing their darkvision to see color instead of being black and white, applicable only if the oracle already has darkvision from a race or template. That would give them a solid advantage without extending their sight beyond any other oracle's.
Or fix the ability since its a playtest. instead of covering your ears and saying nyah nyah nothings wrong. The difference is you can take any other class one level and all your missing out on is the advancement of your abilities, take one level of oracle and your getting a screw you. And my player isn't taking one level he's taking four for a character concept and your answers is well he should be punished for it.
I fail to see what needs fixed, its a key part of being an oracle, if you do not want it then do not play the class. Just like if you don't want to be LG then do not play a paladin
The oracle is appearing in the same book that has rules for non-LG paladins. So you can't use paladin alignment restrictions as a justification for oracle class features.
Sure I can. One is a base class the other is a set of alt ability they switch out, which may or may not be allowed just as the battle sorcerer was not allowed in many games
The alt class ablitys are not the same thing as a full class, not even close
quick question are you implying that cavalier is an unaligned paladin or that they are making the unaligned paladin an option
they are gonna include a non LG paladin build the "templar" and a CE paladin build the "anti-paladin"
Not sure if that was to me or not but alt class features are not the same as full classes
Honestly I dislike clouded vision on the whole. I'd rather they not play around and just go with full on blindness. It's a traditional curse that adds a lot of flavor to a character - far more than "clouded vision". In return for such loses the Oracle could grant other forms of vision, such as arcane sight and blindsight.
I think that while the curses should be based on oracle level - as I can't think of any other classes that advance class abilities for taking non class levels - there should be feats - sort of like practiced spellcaster or the monk/sorcerer feat from CA - that let you increase your virtual oracle level for the purposes of them.
The oracle is appearing in the same book that has rules for non-LG paladins. So you can't use paladin alignment restrictions as a justification for oracle class features.
Well, he answered that one above... but imo every variation is going to be alignment limited as well. Its about Templars with different alignments than LG, not Templars without alignment requirements. I have used something similar to this, including the name -- they are Temple Knights after all -- in my own game. Every order has it's own specific variations on Paladin abilities (based on their purpose / alignment), but also it's own specific alignment. Alignment is still restricted and you shouldn't pick that specific order without wanting to play that alignment. I suspect the same will be true of the Templars that Paizo proposes...
Or fix the ability since its a playtest. instead of covering your ears and saying nyah nyah nothings wrong. The difference is you can take any other class one level and all your missing out on is the advancement of your abilities, take one level of oracle and your getting a screw you. And my player isn't taking one level he's taking four for a character concept and your answers is well he should be punished for it.
I'm still not convinced any class ability should be "fixed" to make a multi-class build work. (independent of what this specific ability does).
I like the fact that this is a tough choice to make, as this will be the only spontaneous divine caster in Pathfinder at this point. Maybe that means your player will have to choose one more level before going to Mystic Theurge to lessen the penalty.
But casters don't dip. Casters already get the best scaling class feature in the game to encourage them to stay in their class. If you are dipping Oracle for the Deafness curse, you're not only crippling your character with the disadvantage, you're crippling your character's casting.
So spellcasters never take prestige classes that lose them 1 level of casting? Never ever? Those classes are just wastes of the paper they're printed on, every single one of them?
Because I know I'd be at least a little tempted to take a prestige class that granted permanent Silent Spell to 100% of my spells for no increase in cast time or spell level. On top of that, it also grants the ability to use all cleric-list wands and staves, a handful of cleric spells, and whichever revelation you pick (some of which are very nice to have -- for example, being able to see through solid fog and its derivatives). Sounds like a very nice one-level dip to me. Matter of fact, I suspect if it was presented as a prestige class with those features people would call it overpowered!
Because I know I'd be at least a little tempted to take a prestige class that granted permanent Silent Spell to 100% of my spells for no increase in cast time or spell level. On top of that, it also grants the ability to use all cleric-list wands and staves, a handful of cleric spells, and whichever revelation you pick (some of which are very nice to have -- for example, being able to see through solid fog and its derivatives). Sounds like a very nice one-level dip to me. Matter of fact, I suspect if it was presented as a prestige class with those features people would call it overpowered!
Not to mention that those couple free spells you get don't have to be prepared every day(or follow a deity that can take it away.)
As for wands, don't forget it is all spells on their spell list, so any wands with spells available from the Focus are also included.
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I like the fact that this is a tough choice to make, as this will be the only spontaneous divine caster in Pathfinder at this point. Maybe that means your player will have to choose one more level before going to Mystic Theurge to lessen the penalty.
no it means that we'l use favored soul and I'll be dissapointed that what could of been a great class was limited because some think multiclassing is some evil dirty thing
Those people would be laughably and hilariously wrong. Silent Spell is situational at best, being deaf is a serious limitation (ask anyone who is deaf), and no casters dipped 3.5 cleric for wand access when it gave even better bennies (frontloaded domains, woo).So spellcasters never take prestige classes that lose them 1 level of casting? Never ever? Those classes are just wastes of the paper they're printed on, every single one of them?
Because I know I'd be at least a little tempted to take a prestige class that granted permanent Silent Spell to 100% of my spells for no increase in cast time or spell level. On top of that, it also grants the ability to use all cleric-list wands and staves, a handful of cleric spells, and whichever revelation you pick (some of which are very nice to have -- for example, being able to see through solid fog and its derivatives). Sounds like a very nice one-level dip to me. Matter of fact, I suspect if it was presented as a prestige class with those features people would call it overpowered!
Nice job avoiding the question. You're very good at that, I've noticed. Whenever someone pins a question on you that you don't want to answer, you always find something else about their post to nitpick, or just disappear from the thread entirely, or skip their post completely.
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But casters don't dip. Casters already get the best scaling class feature in the game to encourage them to stay in their class. If you are dipping Oracle for the Deafness curse, you're not only crippling your character with the disadvantage, you're crippling your character's casting.So spellcasters never take prestige classes that lose them 1 level of casting? Never ever? Those classes are just wastes of the paper they're printed on, every single one of them?
Because I know I'd be at least a little tempted to take a prestige class that granted permanent Silent Spell to 100% of my spells for no increase in cast time or spell level. On top of that, it also grants the ability to use all cleric-list wands and staves, a handful of cleric spells, and whichever revelation you pick (some of which are very nice to have -- for example, being able to see through solid fog and its derivatives). Sounds like a very nice one-level dip to me. Matter of fact, I suspect if it was presented as a prestige class with those features people would call it overpowered!
until they realized that they were deaf. Ever met a person who would keep their hearing impairment in exchange for 100000 no want to know why because it sucks in real life, in game when you get hit with something with no spot because it was invisible and you can't hear. No I don't think that player will be screaming overpowered
Nice job avoiding the question. You're very good at that, I've noticed. Whenever someone pins a question on you that you don't want to answer, you always find something else about their post to nitpick, or just disappear from the thread entirely, or skip their post completely.Perhaps you can restate it clearly, then.
What, you can't read? The very first sentence of the post. It's not that hard. It's 12 words and one digit, and none of them are large or unusual.
Actually, judging from the rest of your post, you're just trolling (another thing you're quite fond of), so I won't hold my breath for a serious answer.
Ever met a person who would keep their hearing impairment in exchange for 100000 no want to know why because it sucks in real life
Yes, because that's really a valid comparison. <rolls eyes>
Among other things, telepathy exists in D&D. And we're talking about spellcasters, here; invisibility isn't that much of a problem to a spellcaster. Wands of invisibility purge are cheap and usable by any Oracle.
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Nice job avoiding the question. You're very good at that, I've noticed. Whenever someone pins a question on you that you don't want to answer, you always find something else about their post to nitpick, or just disappear from the thread entirely, or skip their post completely.Perhaps you can restate it clearly, then.What, you can't read? The very first sentence of the post. It's not that hard. It's 12 words and one digit, and none of them are large or unusual.
Actually, judging from the rest of your post, you can't read, or are trolling. I suspect the latter, because you're very fond of that as well.
can you keep it civil please
At this point I get it you don't agree that the ability should be level based so either please suggest something as a solution to what I as op consider a problem if you have nothing to suggest then your dissent is noted continuing to naysay isn't a productive use of a thread I think there's a problem and i'd like to see people proferring solutions not calling people trolls
At this point I get it you don't agree that the ability should be level based so either please suggest something as a solution
I'm perfectly within my rights and within the purpose of the board to say "that isn't a problem". You're perfectly within your rights and the purpose of the board to say "I think it's a problem and I'm going to continue posting long rants without any punctuation until I get my way". I think you're the only person who really considers it a problem, though, so you've got a lot of convincing to do. You're the one who made the positive assertion; you're the one who needs to prove that positive. You've done very little to convince the majority of people on this thread that the curses are any more of a problem with respect to multiclassing than anything else in Pathfinder.
Seriously, try and playtest a deaf character. Stop yourself from joining any conversation. Don't react to anything you can't see. Being deaf sucks.
I have. It wasn't that big a deal. Two ranks in Linguistics (one for reading lips, one for sign language) and a rank in Linguistics for another person or two in the party (for sign language) covers the communications issue. The "can't make Listen checks" issue isn't that big of a deal either; not for a class who doesn't even get Perception as a class skill and doesn't use Wisdom at all anyway.
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While it would not be an exact fix, I would make a feat like this:
"Curse of the Bloodline"
Requires: Suffers from Oracle curse, has Bloodline class feature
Benefit: Oracle curse abilities are calculated as arcane level + oracle level. Bloodline abilities are calculated as arcane level + oracle level.
This would easily solve the problem and not change the single class version.
I loved the idea of the multiclass feats.
Just a thought.
I wasn't meaning being incapable of communication; I meant being incapable of joining any conversation of which you weren't aware.
I wasn't aware that any character could join a conversation of which they were not aware.
I meant failing at DC 0 Perception checks like being aware that someone is in the room.
There's no facing in D&D. If it's a DC 0 Perception check, that means they aren't trying to hide and are not invisible, which means they're going to be seen.
I meant not being aware of what the plan is in combat unless someone doesn't have their hands full.
That's what reading lips is for.
Also, telepathic bond.
I'm not saying that being deaf is no penalty. I'm saying that I've playtested it and it's not character-crippling.
I wasn't aware that any character could join a conversation of which they were not aware.It's called overhearing.
And oracles can't read the lips of people in a tavern or wherever?
If we're taking "reading lips" to be "I can understand anything anyone is saying despite not being able to hear" then sure, okay, I guess.
Ask lastknightleft about this. He was the one championing reading lips in the other thread about this. He's apparently got experience or has friends with experience in hearing problems in real life and says that reading lips isn't that hard to do. And for the record I mean no insult with that, honestly. I'm not hard of hearing (hard of head maybe...), so I never had a need to acquire the skill and cannot accurately report on how viable it is.
But I don't see how a fifth-level spell oracles can't cast enters into things.
There's this thing called an "adventuring party". It usually has an arcane caster in it. Said arcane caster can then cast telepathic bond. It's not a solution for the first 8 levels, but sign languages and reading lips and the Bluff skill (for simple combat handsigns and passing hidden messages) are all viable options from level 1.
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While it would not be an exact fix, I would make a feat like this:
"Curse of the Bloodline"
Requires: Suffers from Oracle curse, has Bloodline class feature
Benefit: Oracle curse abilities are calculated as arcane level + oracle level. Bloodline abilities are calculated as arcane level + oracle level.This would easily solve the problem and not change the single class version.
I loved the idea of the multiclass feats.
Just a thought.
while I don't like feats to fix class features if you going to go with a feat you should attempt to keep it more generic, that way you don't need a feat written for each class.
Again, I've already said that I'm not making the claim that the deafness is no penalty at all. I'm just saying that it's not a character-breaking penalty. Reading lips is something you can do whenever you can see someone's face (even from a profile, I found, with a little research, though it's harder). Since there is no facing in D&D, it therefore follows that you can read the lips of anyone who you have line of sight to that isn't facing more than 140 or so degrees away from you. It'll probably involve some sort of skill check if the person isn't speaking to you or is speaking a dialect you're not familiar with, etc etc. But it's not impossible. It's also not impossible for deaf people to speak understandably -- that I do know from experience, having known a deaf man when I used to fish. You had to get his attention by tapping his shoulder or waving at him, but he was able to carry on a conversation just fine once you had his attention.
By the way, lastknightleft, I apologize if you felt I was insulting you. I truly didn't intend that statement as an insult, or to needle you, although I do see how it could be seen that way. It was intended as more of a friendly nudge in the ribs, but I'll be the first to admit that I have negative ranks in Diplomacy.
being the internet that roll is at a -5 anyhow
until they realized that they were deaf. Ever met a person who would keep their hearing impairment in exchange for 100000 no want to know why because it sucks in real life, in game when you get hit with something with no spot because it was invisible and you can't hear. No I don't think that player will be screaming overpowered
Sign language is one of the most interesting languages. It combines most of the expressive power of vocalization with the all expressive power of visualization. It allows you to communicate effortlessly regardless of ambient noise, and without making a noise. (Very handy when you want to communicate a complex battle plan but don't want to blow your Stealth roll!)
Some deaf people don't see their impairment as a disability, but just another condition, like having black hair instead of red hair. It's also handy if your want to sleep inside a cave behind a roaring waterfall. Your companions might find it difficult, but you sleep like a rock. And, if you happen to be charmed, that caster also needs telepathy (or sign language) to communicate any but the most basic commands.
My second favorite character of all time was an AD&D 2nd Edition Psionicist named Evan. He was deaf/mute at my request, purely for role-playing purposes; no mechanical advantages, some mechanical disadvantages, and every role-playing advantage/disadvantage of being deaf. That character was a blast to play.
At the end of that campaign, I don't remember how many pluses my best sword had. I do remember trying to be stealthy, falling into a pit, and the other people at the table laughing "Well, he's mute, he wouldn't have yelled out in fear on the way down!" as I marked down the damage I took from the fall.
You know, its possible I'm just misinterpreting the Oracle, but I imagined them, what with the curses and all, as crazy old testament prophet types. Their abilities are are kind of a blessing and a curse... a character doesn't wake up one day and say, "I'm going to be an Oracle when I grow up" in the same way that a character would decide to be a fighter, or even a cleric. It's like your focus chose you, rather than the reverse.
Generally speaking, although I'm really happy that Pathfinder makes dipping less of a viable choice, I'm all for multiclassing the right character. But this entire issue presented here isn't a huge concern for me, because it seems, purely as a character concept, an Oracle really isn't an easy multiclass to justify in-game/in-character.
I can see how the OP would want a purely spontaneous Mystic Theurge, as that would be bad ass. But I don't see an Oracle multiclassing into an arcane caster, and I don't see another character becoming an Oracle... its not the kind of thing you can pick up if you don't already have it.