My problem is that experienceing and understanding the world
...is not what a Sorcerer or Oracle does to get more powerful. They understand themselves.
I'm not saying Devotion to a deity, but rather devotion to whatever their focus is. War, Death, etc. . . In a non-metagaming way, the less devoted would take levels in other things.
Fighters dedicate to a single weapon, and they don't really use wis. Fighters devote to their arcane studies, and they don't use wis. A lot of classes - maybe all of them - devote to something. Not all of them use Wis.
Which is good, because it would be boring.
[Off topic]To be honest, I think realisticly, Sorcerers should be Wis, too, especially with what you just said, because there is nothing Charsmatic about how a Sorcerer uses/advances their power.[end off topic]
It doesn't take wisdom to use your oracle or sorcerer powers. It takes confidence, and force of personality - charisma traits.
Dedication to a higher course or an ideal is wisdom. Power through learning is intelligence. Mastering powers you just have is charisma.
It's also a "balance" thing. The mental stats should get equal screen time.
And it's a "backwards compatibility" thing: Sorcerers use Cha. Spontaneous casters use Cha. Guys with innate power (power you're born with, power that's trust upon you) use Cha. I think it's a nice concept, and I don't think it should be done away with.
The Oracle is not a diviner, priest, or fortune-teller. Rather, an oracle is a mystic philosopher, councilor, village elder, wise man on the mountain, or gypsy wise woman.
An oracle is a speaker. A mouthpiece.
I think you just proved my point. Wisdom is about understanding, perception, and insight. I don't see Oracles being particularly forceful of personality. People come to them looking for council, interpretaion, and insight, they don't go to them with flowery speech (and most definetly not social grace).
Yeah, right. All those astrologers really do have the universal truth or never make a single cent.
Mechanically, the Oracle using Cha makes no sense other than to keep it as a "divine sorcerer". But that is not what they are.
Well, the sorcerer is the "arcane sorcerer". They don't get to use Int, which is the arcane attribute.
The mystic theurge class is balanced on the assumption that arcane casting and divine casting use different ability scores.
And that you get new spell levels on 3rd, 5th, 7th...
10th level Mystic theurge:
Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4: Casts 4th-level spells in either class, while a single-classed character would have 5th-level spells.
Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 2: Casts 3th-level spells in either class.
16:
Clr 3/Wiz 3/Mys 10: 7th-level spells instead of 8th-level spells
Ora 4/Sor 4/Mys 8: 6th-level spells.
You're two levels of spells behind the single caster. Sure, you get tons of spells, but what does it matter? You only get one spell per round, and the other guy's spells are so much better than yours!
We need to remember that the PF oracle is not a carbon copy of Delphi.
We could go on forever, futilely arguing over the name (futilely because it was said that it's not going to be changed), but the fact is that the PF oracle is not someone who hides away in a cave, takes drugs and spews prophecies. It's not the cave, either.
It's a speaker (which is the origin of the word oracle: To speak) for a concept. The Speaker of Wisdom (or whatever they'll call the knowledge focus) might be about the prophecy thing, but the Oracle of Flames is all about fire.
Oracles in this sense are basically on par with druids, because while they get the various heals a spell level sooner, they have a lot fewer spells available to cast. I do not see Oracles being effective as a heal class without a focus devoted to healing.So I think we should look at their place in combat. They lack the armor to go into melee and they lack the ranged spells or spell verity to stay in the back doing anything but being the “heal b!@!@.” So far I don't see them having a concrete place in battle.These are important observations, and lead to a question that should be asked of developers if it hasn't been answered already. Were Oracles meant to be main healers or act as an alternative divine caster? I've always assumed the latter, which is why it seemed natural that healing would fall to the wayside a bit in exchange for other cool abilities. Though if a healing focus were to be taken they should be able to surpass a Cleric in terms of raw healing ability.
I think a lot of people assume the former, but going down that road eliminates potential for growth in areas that would make it stand apart from the Cleric. A class can't have everything.
I'm assuming that one of the Foci/Mysteries that will be in the final book will be Healing. I'm sure there'll also be a Divination one, as an aside. With the inclusion of the Healing Focus/Mystery, I think it's safe to say "if you want to play a really good healing Oracle, pick the Healing focus; everyone else can fend for themselves".
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I'm assuming that one of the Foci/Mysteries that will be in the final book will be Healing. I'm sure there'll also be a Divination one, as an aside. With the inclusion of the Healing Focus/Mystery, I think it's safe to say "if you want to play a really good healing Oracle, pick the Healing focus; everyone else can fend for themselves".Oracles in this sense are basically on par with druids, because while they get the various heals a spell level sooner, they have a lot fewer spells available to cast. I do not see Oracles being effective as a heal class without a focus devoted to healing.So I think we should look at their place in combat. They lack the armor to go into melee and they lack the ranged spells or spell verity to stay in the back doing anything but being the “heal b!@!@.” So far I don't see them having a concrete place in battle.These are important observations, and lead to a question that should be asked of developers if it hasn't been answered already. Were Oracles meant to be main healers or act as an alternative divine caster? I've always assumed the latter, which is why it seemed natural that healing would fall to the wayside a bit in exchange for other cool abilities. Though if a healing focus were to be taken they should be able to surpass a Cleric in terms of raw healing ability.
I think a lot of people assume the former, but going down that road eliminates potential for growth in areas that would make it stand apart from the Cleric. A class can't have everything.
I think I remember hearing that this would be the case. And that they would be very good at healing.
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We need to remember that the PF oracle is not a carbon copy of Delphi... It's a speaker (which is the origin of the word oracle: To speak) for a concept.This brings to mind a question that I've had for a while now. Where are the oracle class abilities that represent speaking on behalf of something? I haven't seen anything in the class mechanics that has anything to do with acting as a mouthpiece, channeling spirits, or making pronouncements.
From what I can tell they aren't designed to speak for the gods, they are a representation of the Gods power in the mortal realm. As such they represent that power, without actually knowing what the gods want from them. Perhaps them just having the power is enough for the gods purpose, maybe something the character will do in the future will further their goals.
I think the spellcasting ability is fine - but they have to continue the line of thinking that this is a divine sorceror and make the Foci as defined yet powerful as a Bloodline. I think they are getting too much into the selection aspect and have made what is overall a pretty weak class. An excess of melee touch/close range abilities and bizarre level restrictions(5th level?) leads this character to be pulled in many different directions. The sorceror bloodlines provided a central theme from which to build your character, whereas these abilities seem to be very basic damage and defense boosts.
In addition, many of the Foci share very similar(if not identical) abilities. Perhaps a single 'elemental' foci, would cut this down. Then the Oracle can expand on unique ideas, such as has been recommended: divination, healing, magic, nature, etc.
I think people are getting stuck on the idea that divine=healing...
Or Oracle= prophesy.
It seems to me what they are going for, is that the Oracle is the embodiment of an idea.
Sure they may be great at healing IF they are an Oracle OF healing....but an Oracle of bones, or fire, or what have you will probably never cast a healing spell in their life.
Yes an Oracle is a divine caster....that does not in any way mean they need to fill the same role as the Cleric.....in fact there would be no point to the class if they did.
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I think you just proved my point. Wisdom is about understanding, perception, and insight. I don't see Oracles being particularly forceful of personality. People come to them looking for council, interpretaion, and insight, they don't go to them with flowery speech (and most definetly not social grace).Yeah, right. All those astrologers really do have the universal truth or never make a single cent.
I'm not sure what that was suppossed to mean. Cha is the way to make money?
I think your confussing earlier stuff. You said the Oracle is not about devotion, and I said they were, (look at focus). Oracles are a different breed of divine caster, not another breed of sorcerer.
Earlier when I said Oracles are not fortune-tellers and the like, I was replying to someone else, but the idea is that the Oracle are not prophets or diviners, they are representatives of a universal truth/mystery (ie a concept) like battle, death, or whatever.
Also, I agree that the mental stats need equal show, but honestly I think that Wis is probably the least used. So many classes, racial abilities, feats, or whatever already use Cha, followed by Int with everyone wanting more skills and some feats and class features. Wis is behind. I wouldn't be against the Oracle being able to choose between Wis and Cha, though. That could be cool and offer diversity.
Be careful about assuming that all the elemental-ish foci are only that. There's definite intimations that each one is supposed to represent fundamental concepts beyond "water cold!" and "rock smash!".
Stone is stability, Waves is adaptability, Wind is freedom, and Flames is... well, okay, its fire. Destruction, maybe?
Anyhow, lumping them all into one 'elemental' category would lose that nuance, never mind making no sense from a flavor standpoint. "I awoke one day and the stone spoke to me, and it said... 'LET THERE BE ROCKS'". Or water, or fire. There's no principle behind the elements alone, just a plane and an energy type.
Frostflame is on the money - it would be cool to recast them all more strongly in their high concepts. I'd totally be into an oracle of Change, with lots of transmutation powers (with some water-type abilities, perhaps?) or an oracle of Peace, with sanctuary and healing spells...
I don't know, unlike normal, I think a Straight Oracle 10/Sorcerer 10 might work pretty well, as is.
*Sprays drink all over computer screen*
Seriously? Um... yeah. Good luck with that one. Let me guess, you're one of the DM's who feels the Mystic Theurge is overpowered?
there's the potential of an oracle/sorcerer getting out of hand. What I'd worry about (and I'd want to playtest if I had more time) is an oracle/sorcerer/mystic theurge.
No. Just no. You are 4 levels behind the Wizard or Cleric in spell acquisition as a Sorcerer/Oracle. 4 levels. Short of allowing you to cast two spells a round every round from your highest level slots nothing will offset that – and even then I’d be wary of the trade. Let me put this in perspective. When you gain fireball and cure serious wounds the wizard is casting teleport and cloudkill while the cleric is casting flame strike and raise dead. I think the best part about it at that level is the wizard actually has access to more healing than you do via Summon Monster V. While you are still casting 3rd level spells the cleric starts casting heal and the wizard gets contingency.
At 15th level you’re casting 5th level spells. The wizard and cleric just got their 8th level spells.
And the best part is at 20th level you’re casting a 8th level spell in one and a 7th level spell in the other.
The mystic theurge class is balanced on the assumption that arcane casting and divine casting use different ability scores. Accordingly, the oracle has the potential to break the mystic theurge prestige class. Without having one the necessary playtesting, I don't know for sure if it actually does that, but it certainly has the potential.
The Mystic Theurge class isn’t balanced at all. It’s a horrifically weak PrC and a complete trap for inexperienced players even under the best circumstances, especially in pathfinder where you have limited options to offset the penalties it imposes. Take it from someone that has playtested both as intended (cleric3/wizard3 entry) and with early entry. It’s bad. I know it sounds like a great deal, spells from two lists, but it isn’t, because you end up with fewer spells of all meaningful levels and by the time you get them they are hardly meaningful.
At 10th level...
...a clr 3/sor 4/theurge 3 has 4th-level divine spells and 3rd-level arcane spells.
...an oracle 4/sor 4/theurge 2 has 3rd-level divine spells and 3rd-level arcane spells.
At 16th level...
...a clr 3/sor 4/theurge 9 has 6th-level divine spells and 6th-level arcane spells.
...an oracle 4/sor 4/theurge 8 has 6th-level divine spells and 6th-level arcane spells.
Minor corrections. Pretty much every time you say “spells” you mean “spell”, given the extremely limited number of spells both the oracle and sorcerer have access to.
Now lets compare Wizard/Cleric.
At 10th level
Wiz3/Clr3/MT4 has 4th level arcane and divine spells
At 16th level
Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 has 7th level arcane and divine spells
Of course this is kind of a moot point, because all of the above are horribly weak compared to a single classed caster. Even if the Oracle/Sorcerer split was better than the Wiz/Clr split (and it isn’t) that would simply make it the better of two awful choices.
I believe we are losing sight of the class here. The definition of oracle has always been associated with divination but this class while it can go that route is not focused on it at all.
lol, yes and \All\ rogues are outsiders.
Note: the \\ denotes sarcasm.
...Don't forget that the full class is throwing a Quickened, Empowered, Maximized, or Extended (etc) version of your highest level spell and getting more dice, duration etc.
...No, I've never cared, personally, for MT either.
I'm not sure what that was suppossed to mean.Yeah, right. All those astrologers really do have the universal truth or never make a single cent.
It's pretty obvious if seen in context: You claimed that people go to high wis people for their predictions.
Your average real world fortune teller isn't successful because of actual predictions using high wis. They can give you a good show using high cha.
People go to those successful people (because otherwise they wouldn't be successful), which means they don't go to wis people for their prophecies. QED.
I think your confussing earlier stuff. You said the Oracle is not about devotion, and I said they were, (look at focus).
That's not devotion. It's working with what you've got. They don't get to decide that they only get fire powers. They do not consciously devote to fire.
Oracles are a different breed of divine caster, not another breed of sorcerer.
Huh? What does being a divine caster mean? What does being a sorcerer mean?
Are sorcerers a different breed of arcane caster? If so, why do they use cha instead of int?
They're not sorcerers in the same way that druids are not clerics. They're their own class.
And in this case, cha makes sense because they have innate talent (which is tied to Cha in Pathfinder). They cast without preparation (which is virtaully always tied to Cha in Pathfinder and D&D).
So they use divine magic. Doesn't mean they have to use wis because of that. Not all divine casters do. Paladins are the proof of that. Not all casters have to.
Also, I agree that the mental stats need equal show, but honestly I think that Wis is probably the least used.
For spellcasting, It's used by clerics, druids, rangers. (Int is only used by wizards, Cha is used by sorcerers, druids, paladins).
Otherwise, it's used by monks pretty heavily, and by everyone who wants to be strong of will and/or perceptive.
I wouldn't be against the Oracle being able to choose between Wis and Cha, though. That could be cool and offer diversity.
I'd say that's too weird and way out there. Something like that needs to be systemic, not a feature of a single class.
I suggest a breakaway from that instead of having nature broken down into four elements just have it as one, or leave it out altogether.
It looks very much like every domain will get a corresponding focus. There are four elemental domains.
I would like to see the foci based more on concepts like life, which could include healing, Peace, love (I know love has been done to death) Time, Strength.
Life: Will probably what the healing focus will be called
Strength: There's a domain for that.Time: There's n time domain - not in the core rules, anyway - so this will probably have to wait.
An excess of melee touch/close range abilities and bizarre level restrictions(5th level?)
There's just two 5th-level requirements, and I guess they're wrong. It's supposed to be either 3 or 7 (maybe it's a holdover from an earlier draft where they got something on 5th).
This brings to mind a question that I've had for a while now. Where are the oracle class abilities that represent speaking on behalf of something?
All over. Gods like to speak with actions. They can get bards for the other stuff.
It works like this: Oracle appears, shows the awesome power of its focus in a display of awesomeness, and doesn't even need to say how to great Life/Battle/Flames is, because everybody just saw it.
Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4Yes, but compare a mystic theurge that starts as an oracle/sorcerer to one that starts as a cleric/sorcerer. Your comparison changes two variables (the divine and the arcane class). This comparison changes one variable (the divine class only).
I changed a meta-variable: suck.
Cleric/Sorcerer already loses out because he needs one more level of sorcerer. It's even weaker than a cleric/wizard.
I say to be fair, we need to compare to the stronger alternative.
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I don't know, unlike normal, I think a Straight Oracle 10/Sorcerer 10 might work pretty well, as is.
*Sprays drink all over computer screen*
Seriously? Um... yeah. Good luck with that one. Let me guess, you're one of the DM's who feels the Mystic Theurge is overpowered?
Not at all. But I specifically didn't say Mystic Theurge. As is, the Oracle and Sorcerer both work very similarly, both have exactly the same stat priorities (or close depending on your build preference), can benefit from almost all feats they might take for one class or the other, and can out spellcast the Mystic Theurge in a way.
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Not at all. But I specifically didn't say Mystic Theurge. As is, the Oracle and Sorcerer both work very similarly, both have exactly the same stat priorities (or close depending on your build preference), can benefit from almost all feats they might take for one class or the other, and can out spellcast the Mystic Theurge in a way.I don't know, unlike normal, I think a Straight Oracle 10/Sorcerer 10 might work pretty well, as is.
*Sprays drink all over computer screen*
Seriously? Um... yeah. Good luck with that one. Let me guess, you're one of the DM's who feels the Mystic Theurge is overpowered?
Well you're in luck, I have a player going oracle/sorcerer/mystic theurge, he's currently level 6. Sorcerer 4 (fc)/Oracle 2
Right now what we know is that the curse is a total bone the player to a multiclass character. Since it's based off of Oracle level, and since he'll be going into a PrC he gets the hey you're boned without ever getting the hey here's some nice stuff to make up for it. I've already suggested that the curse abilities be based off of character level. Right now he has lots of utility spells to help out, he likes focusing on damage and fire spells, so he spends most of his time casting flaming sphere and magic missiles and cure light wounds where it is needed. But in no way is he overpowering. As the other player stated, he could be casting third level spells right now and by the time he gets his third level spells a straight oracle or sorcerer would have 5th level spells, now he's the only caster in the group as of right now so he doesn't get outshined by anyone, like he would if there was a full caster in the party.
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That's not devotion. It's working with what you've got. They don't get to decide that they only get fire powers. They do not consciously devote to fire.
"Focus: Each oracle draws upon a divine focus to grant
her spells and powers. This focus also grants additionalclass skills and other special abilities. [u]This focus can
represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that
support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a
cause[/u]. For example, an oracle with a waves focus might
have been born at sea and found a natural calling to
worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they
benign or malevolent. Regardless of the source, a focus
manifests in a number of ways as the oracle gains levels.
An oracle must pick one focus upon taking her first level
of oracle. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. . ."
Oracles are a different breed of divine caster, not another breed of sorcerer.
Huh? What does being a divine caster mean? What does being a sorcerer mean?
Being a Divine Caster means that you channel spiritual energies and make miracles happen through faith and belief. Your own morality and wisdom (not the stat) plays a big part.
Being a sorcerer means that you have inborn "racial" abilities allow you to do strange things partially based on your heritage. That is not what an Oracle is (in the PF sense). There is no racial heritage to unlock, but rather a spiritual gift, again based on convicion and faith in a cause. The conceptual Oracle that Pf is going off of is not the prophetic seer, (though that is something you could do with the class). Instead they are going off of the advisor and wise man/woman, who where notably not eloquent but rather wise and versed, (but often had to have someone else interpret or explain it).
Being a Divine Caster means that you channel spiritual energies and make miracles happen through faith and belief. Your own morality and wisdom (not the stat) plays a big part.
Being a sorcerer means that you have inborn "racial" abilities allow you to do strange things partially based on your heritage. That is not what an Oracle is (in the PF sense). There is no racial heritage to unlock, but rather a spiritual gift, again based on convicion and faith in a cause. The conceptual Oracle that Pf is going off of is not the prophetic seer, (though that is something you could do with the class). Instead they are going off of the advisor and wise man/woman, who where notably not eloquent but rather wise and versed, (but often had to have someone else interpret or explain it).
That's not how Jason describes it:
Oracles are not directly empowered by the gods themselves at all. The gods contribute their divine power to certain ideals (part of their portfolio). In some cases the gods have interests that overlap with each other, even if they do not share a similar view about how that ideal should be put forward or advanced. In any case, the ideal itself can manifest through mortals that have some link to it, either through a strange omen at their birth, the divine event, or some other reason. In this case, these mortals become a conduit for the divine power that fuels that ideal, becoming oracles.
The gods themselves have an odd relationship with the oracles. They cannot control them or dictate whether or not they get their powers, but the gods vie to sway them to their view of the ideal. The oracles on the other hand, are trapped in the middle, trying to understand why they have this power and making sense of the ideal that provides the strange powers that they possess.
I hope that makes some sense..
This is how I see their powers working. How this is tied to Golarion, I will let the folks who spend all day on that side of the wall answer.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Being a Divine Caster means that you channel spiritual energies and make miracles happen through faith and belief. Your own morality and wisdom (not the stat) plays a big part.
Being a sorcerer means that you have inborn "racial" abilities allow you to do strange things partially based on your heritage. That is not what an Oracle is (in the PF sense). There is no racial heritage to unlock, but rather a spiritual gift, again based on convicion and faith in a cause. The conceptual Oracle that Pf is going off of is not the prophetic seer, (though that is something you could do with the class). Instead they are going off of the advisor and wise man/woman, who where notably not eloquent but rather wise and versed, (but often had to have someone else interpret or explain it).That's not how Jason describes it:
...Oracles are not directly empowered by the gods themselves at all. The gods contribute their divine power to certain ideals (part of their portfolio). In some cases the gods have interests that overlap with each other, even if they do not share a similar view about how that ideal should be put forward or advanced. In any case, the ideal itself can manifest through mortals that have some link to it, either through a strange omen at their birth, the divine event, or some other reason. In this case, these mortals become a conduit for the divine power that fuels that ideal, becoming oracles.
The gods themselves have an odd relationship with the oracles. They cannot control them or dictate whether or not they get their powers, but the gods vie to sway them to their view of the ideal. The oracles on the other hand, are trapped in the middle, trying to understand why they have this power and making sense of the ideal that provides the strange powers that they possess.
I hope that makes some sense..
This is how I see their powers working. How this is tied to Golarion, I will let the folks who spend all day on that side of the wall answer.
Jason Bulmahn
Which part are you (and he?) disagreeing with?
Which part are you (and he?) disagreeing with?
You say that Oracles are all about faith and belief. Jason says that Oracles don't have to have any special faith or belief: being an Oracle just happens.
You say that Oracles aren't born with the power like Sorcerers are. Jason says that one of the things that can cause an Oracle is an omen at birth, meaning that, in essence, they are born with it, at least some of them.
You say that the Pathfinder Oracle is based on being a wiseman or wisewoman, implying that they're in control of their power. Jason says that Oracles barely even understand why they have the power, let alone what their powers are.
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I'm saying Divine Casters use faith, belief, and conviction and this is true for Oracles as well. I am texting this out, so it may not be as clear as I mean, and I may have somehow said the wrong thing somewhere. I'm just going off of the PDF and PF core book, and so far I'm not seeing a difference in what I'm saying and that.
Anyone can be born into a class under a strange sign. Cleric, Druid, and Paladin (in that order likely too), seem the three biggest ones. I'm not saying that no Oracles are born to it, just that that is not the norm for all Oracles. According the Focus section of the class, they too develope their powers (even not fully understood and probably forced upon them) by faith and conviction to a cause, such as Battle or Wind, similar to a Cleric.
Again, I'm not seeing any contradiction between what he and I have said, unless you are talking about something that has not been revealed yet to us. I think that the Sorcerer is a different animal, and not a good way to compair or describe the Oracle to as similar, thematically or mechanically beyond spontanious casters. But so are Clerics and Druids.
I'm saying Divine Casters use faith, belief, and conviction and this is true for Oracles as well.
There is not a conflict here.....
A Cleric uses faith, belief, and conviction in their god.
An Oracle, uses faith, belief, and conviction in THEMSELVES.
Now granted, my perception is biased by the setting I play in, but that is how it has always been explained in that setting....and it works fine ;)
That's how the mystic works in Dragonlance, and just plain Clerics work in some settings, but it isn't in themselves for Oracles. Or at least Oracles in general. For the Oracle class, it is faith in something like the sea or in battle or death.
It's still a faith in themselves as an agent of an abstract idea.
I remember someone making a comment to the effect, of how can you be the "voice of battle".....and I couldn't understand why that was so hard a concept to understand.
The individual Oracle takes an abstract idea, for example Battle, or Justice,or Love, and then generates the concept of how they will "be" battle, or justice, or love.
I may in fact be biased by my exposure to the Dragonlance Mystic, but it seems to me that is exactly what they have been trying to communicate in the fluff text.
It's still faith and belief in self, however you slice it.
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Don't get me wrong, I'd roll with that in my games, but that is not what the base Oracle is about, and really not the Mystic either. Both find something deeper. Something outside just themselves. That isn't to say they have no faith in themselves, though but rather that they have a better understanding of themselvs by seeing the bigger picture and choosing to champion something. Battle, Bones, a deity, a philosophy, or even the teachings of the heart.
At first glance the oracle seems like a weakened cleric, the curse and it's abilities don't seem to balance out. The low amount of spells and the restrictions of the curses seems detrimental to the class. Picking their "focus" air, water etc... these seem more like watered down or transferred sorcerer abilities. In mythology "Oracles" told of portents and futures, almost like a "Divination" focused wizard. Looking it over I would prefer to play a wizard with that focus or if some form of healing is required perhaps an "Adept" from the NPC classes. I'm not certain what is planned for the witch, but this would also seem to cross into her territory as well.
Which part are you (and he?) disagreeing with?You say that Oracles are all about faith and belief. Jason says that Oracles don't have to have any special faith or belief: being an Oracle just happens.
You say that Oracles aren't born with the power like Sorcerers are. Jason says that one of the things that can cause an Oracle is an omen at birth, meaning that, in essence, they are born with it, at least some of them.
You say that the Pathfinder Oracle is based on being a wiseman or wisewoman, implying that they're in control of their power. Jason says that Oracles barely even understand why they have the power, let alone what their powers are.
I see them being like Idiot Savants and Charisma works better, IMO, than Wisdom.
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I see them being like Idiot Savants and Charisma works better, IMO, than Wisdom.Which part are you (and he?) disagreeing with?You say that Oracles are all about faith and belief. Jason says that Oracles don't have to have any special faith or belief: being an Oracle just happens.
You say that Oracles aren't born with the power like Sorcerers are. Jason says that one of the things that can cause an Oracle is an omen at birth, meaning that, in essence, they are born with it, at least some of them.
You say that the Pathfinder Oracle is based on being a wiseman or wisewoman, implying that they're in control of their power. Jason says that Oracles barely even understand why they have the power, let alone what their powers are.
How so? For an idiot savant, cha is the least aplicable. (Am I thinking of the right thing here, someone that can not relate to others at all, but sometimes have an uncanny way of being very intelegent about one thing?)
How so? For an idiot savant, cha is the least aplicable. (Am I thinking of the right thing here, someone that can not relate to others at all, but sometimes have an uncanny way of being very intelegent about one thing?)I see them being like Idiot Savants and Charisma works better, IMO, than Wisdom.Which part are you (and he?) disagreeing with?You say that Oracles are all about faith and belief. Jason says that Oracles don't have to have any special faith or belief: being an Oracle just happens.
You say that Oracles aren't born with the power like Sorcerers are. Jason says that one of the things that can cause an Oracle is an omen at birth, meaning that, in essence, they are born with it, at least some of them.
You say that the Pathfinder Oracle is based on being a wiseman or wisewoman, implying that they're in control of their power. Jason says that Oracles barely even understand why they have the power, let alone what their powers are.
I see that stat (Charisma) as being force of personality/animal magnetism something you either have or don't. I used the savant as an example as to me the Oracle class would suit that kind of thing. Cursed but gifted at the same time.
I knew a chap who was autistic and obsessed with time. Give him a date and he could tell you what day of the week it fell on. The impression I got (if you were to stat him up) would be low wisdom but high charisma.
Again this is my opinion, yours differs for equally valid reasons. I see a case for charisma that is all.
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I can kind of see the similarity between the cursed but gifted, but I'm still just not seeing Cha. What I meant was, if anything it would seem a high Int and low Wis and Cha.
I guess my problem is I see no reason for Cha in the class concept as presented. The absolute closest thing I've seen for a reason is the comparison to a street preacher (revival), but even that seems more Cleric/Adept or Sorcerer to me than Oracle. That doesn't mean an Oracle couldn't do it, just it would be the exception.