The Challenge Mechanic-Does it work?

[sysane]

james taylor 876 wrote:

I think it looks quite good although maybe the damage bonus could do with being a bit more heavy duty as +8 is a lot less than a fighter of the same level can manage.

As for the whole concept of a "challenge" I’d prefer it was more an ability that represents the Cavalier fighting harder because he fights for a cause something bigger than himself and doesn't want the dishonour of failure. The Cavalier is an inspired warrior who lives by his convictions and is willing to risk great danger and even death to see that his honour is upheld and that the honour of his order is not stained by his failure.

What if the ability improved every 5 levels instead of 6 (+4 at 5th, +6 at 10th, +8 at 15th, and +10 at 20th)?

[james taylor 876]

That kind of brings him into line with the fighter but doesn’t provide all that much in the way of extra damage in a challenge. In my opinion a Cavalier should be doing much more damage than a fighter while he’s in a challenge. Precision damage just plain doesn’t fit the weapons he uses are heavy and designed for slashing at the target or skewering them. Adding class levels provides a fair bonus but makes challenge into a universal smite and that’s obviously not the way. An advancement in damage like you suggest has some good virtues but leaves the cavalier lacking in the damage department.

I purpose something new a fighting style for the cavalier that focuses on scouring more critical hits. As he advances he could gain bonuses like increased threat range, increasing the multiplier of his weapons, auto confirming critical hits and finally maybe even maximising damage on a critical hit. The question is would this be over powered? I personally don’t think so it would allow a luck cavalier to do extraordinary damage in a challenge something the class was designed to do. I would like to put this forward as it’s a new and unique way of fighting and is unlike any other class in the pathfinder rules set.
I would also probably limit this ability to when they are using weapons that are knightly in their nature such as swords, lances, maces, morning stars, ect.
Please note that I’m only talking offensive bonuses here and sysane has a lot of other good add ons the challeng .

[sysane]

james taylor 876 wrote:

I purpose something new a fighting style for the cavalier that focuses on scouring more critical hits. As he advances he could gain bonuses like increased threat range, increasing the multiplier of his weapons, auto confirming critical hits and finally maybe even maximising damage on a critical hit. The question is would this be over powered? I personally don’t think so it would allow a luck cavalier to do extraordinary damage in a challenge something the class was designed to do. I would like to put this forward as it’s a new and unique way of fighting and is unlike any other class in the pathfinder rules set.

I like the increased Crit Threat range. Ties into the "focused on defeating the his foe" theme. I think the increasing of the crit multiplier and max damage on a crit may be a bit unbalanced. The threat range would be limited to weapons to the stereotypical knight weapons like you stated and only when used against the target of the Challenge. The threat range could increase with the Cav's level progression(8th, 14th, 20th).

[james taylor 876]

I think that this is about the best way to handle the "challenge" as it makes the class unique and gives it its own mechanic i hope Mr Bulmahn sees these last few posts.

As for the crit multiplier I was thinking 1 at 9th-10th then another at 18th-20th.

[james taylor 876]

Also as an afterthought a cavalier’s crit in a “challenge” could bypass certain Damage reduction types at different levels.

[Jess Door]

I like the flavor of the crit idea quite a bit, but it might need some tweaking. My big concern is that multiclassing into cavalier to get a +1 crit threat that stacks with feats would become a problem. I'd include a progression with some of the following:

Offensive
+x to confirm critical threats
+flat damage on crits
+critical multiplier
+critical threat range

Defensive
+x to AC against critical confirmation rolls against the cavalier
fortification against critical threats

you could only get bonuses to critical multipliers, critical threat ranges and fortification type bonuses once there's been a significant investment in levels. Level 6 would be about the earliest I'd consider them - and that might be a bit early.

Add some favored enemy like flat damage that will help with defeating challenged enemies at low level, and the low level cavalier might not be too badly hurt in his ability to take down enemies by these changes.

[james taylor 876]

That wasn’t a point I had considered thanks for bringing that up. I would probably provide bonuses to confirm a crit only at low levels ensuring that a Character who wants the bonuses to threat range, damage multiplier, and flat crit damage should be in it for the long haul. I also like your defensive idea as this fits in well with the whole theme. I purpose something like the following. Allowing a cavalier to add his class level to rolls to confirm critical hits, at 6th lvl and every 4 lvls there after a cavalier adds 1 to the threat range of his weapon and At lvl 8 and every 4 lvls after he adds 1 to the multiply of his weapon. Needless to say the flat damage should be a very high lvl ability however as a prelude to it allowing an ability to reroll ones perhaps? As for the defensive bonuses you suggest I would make them start early and make them only count against the “victim” of the “challenge” (tough its my suspicion that’s what you meant ;) ) and only when he’s threatening you.

[Jess Door]

james taylor 876 wrote:

though its my suspicion that’s what you meant ;)

Yes.

[james taylor 876]

Well it looks like we have a solid idea it just needs polishing anyone know how we can get Mr Bulmahn to take a look at it? I think his insight could help.

[cliff]

What if it was just to confirmations until 10th? Then it wouldn't be such a dip magnet. I like the idea too if threat range only increased when the Cav was mounted. Simulates the idea of taking advantage of the leverage gained by the movement of the mount.

[james taylor 876]

I think level 10 is leavening it a bit late in the class as it would leave you lacking any sort of special offence early on. I think that level 6 is about the right time to kick off the critical advancements until that level other defensive and confirmation bonuses could be acquired. I would say don’t forget that these bonuses only apply in a challenge (and let’s not forget the flanking negative that you pick up for using the ability) and to get the big benefits from it you’re going to have to invest a lot of levels. As for the mounted idea I personally think that would limit the abilities use too much and make it to situational. I just don’t think that when a cavalier enters a dungeon that he should be leavening all his abilities at the door.

[james taylor 876]

Ok so I think that we have a fairly solid "idea" here however I feel it’s time to actually play test it. I'm going to se my Gm about the changes you guys and myself suggested and begin play testing at lvl 6 if someone else could play test at a higher level please do I'd be interested in how it works out. Please record and include your version of the "challenge" advancement table with your play test results and your personal account of how things went and what could be improved upon. My group meets on Friday so you can expect to see something on Saturday afternoon.

[Rockhopper]

As I read people's suggestions that the Cavalier should have some way to draw the enemy into the Challenge, I gradually started to think more and more that the class inherently penalizes an enemy retreat. The speed of the mount can catch most foes and the Cavalier can continue the fight.

In particular, Mighty Charge seems to fill a great purpose here. Your singled out foe runs, and you charge the following round, covering a long distance, having a great chance to deal solid damage, and then making a free attempt to, picking a maneuver, trip them. If they manage to get up from that and continue their escape, I'd say they're at the very least earning their exit the hard way.

One note about Mighty Charge, though, is that I think the language should specify clearly whether the weapon being used in the charge must be compatible with the selected maneuver. Must you charge with something like a scythe for its trip effect, or will a lance work as well despite not normally being suited for the task?

Aside from that, perhaps the Cavalier's Mighty Charge bonuses should be in some way applicable while not mounted. It seems to me to totally fit the flavor of a knight engaged with his chosen foe to deal that one epic swing that disarms the enemy. Maybe on a critical (giving a somewhat fitting benefit to any extra-precise Cavalier who would wield high-crit weapons like rapiers) or on an already prone, shaken (via Demoralize or Dazzling Display, both appropriate for a bold hero) or somehow otherwise compromised character?

Looking at Demanding Challenge, I say it could very simply be converted to an automatic flank on the enemy by the Cavalier's allies. This forces the enemy into the same boat as the Cavalier, since both are distracted by the fight. If this would provide too much potentially broken synergy with Rogues, though, by all means the allied +2 attack bonus people have suggested would also be a slightly inconsistent, but usable answer (though most Rogues won't have so terrible a time getting into flank in the first place, particularly with a Cavalier harassing the foe at all times).

[james taylor 876]

I think that the combat manoeuvres should work with any "knightly" weapon wielded (swords, lances, maces, ect). I believe that in the case of combat manoeuvres the extra momentum and weight provided by the mount should grant the bonus in a way that makes sense. I totally agree with Rockhopper that this needs clarifying however.

I personally think that the mighty charge is currently a little over powered. It is also my opinion that this ability should stay mounted only as the cavalier is dangerous enough on foot as it is because of his challenge.

I believe that a few of the people above myself included mentioned a bonus to combat manoeuvres while in the challenge I think this would work better rather than just being on the charge as it suites the classes style better.

As for demanding challenge id just make it a flat -1AC for each attack he allocates to a challenged foe, though this penalty would only apply to attacks made by players other than the cavalier and should probably only apply to melee attacks.