In order to better reflect the Cavaliers devotion I think the class should have access to ONE Knowledge skill. Religion, nobility and history being obvious choices, but depending on the object of devotion any one might probably be justifiable.
This is PRPG, even a 7 INT fighter who's so dumb he chose Favored Class Wizard for the Skills still has "access" to every single skill. The bonus Class Skills from the Orders simply grant a one-time +3 bonus IF YOU PUT RANKS INTO IT. Given the already decently-sized list of all Cavaliers, unless you have a fairly bright Cavalier, there's no way they will be maxing out ALL their Class Skills, so they may well NOT benefit from each of the bonus Class Skills. Given they DO have a decent number of Ranks (esp. with Skill Rank from Favored Class), many Cavaliers will be looking at non-Class Skills any ways - it's just a +3, and if you have a decent Stat for the skill in question, it equals out.
Okay so first I need to say I love the Cavalier, I have always loved the Marshall, Knight and Paladin classes and now I have a class which is all 3!
I have been seeing allot of complaints due to the flat footedness of the cavalier while challenging, while i agree for the most part that Rogues would appreciate this (somewhat:) I do NOT however think it is broken.
I have compared some of the more combatant classes and threw in the rogue for fun.
Assuming 18's in vital stats, no items, feats included..
10th level Rogue
Bonus to hit: +12/+7
Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse
Special Damage: 5D6
BEST attack: Flat footed armor class vs. +12/+7, 1D6 + 5D6
To Hit(+12): min 13 / median 22.5 / max 32
To Hit(+7): min 8 / median 17.5 / max 27
Damage: min 6 / median 21 / max 36
Regular Attack: +12/+7 1D6
To Hit(+12): min 13 / median 22.5 / max 32
To Hit(+7): min 8 / median 17.5 / max 27
Regular Damage: min 1 / median 3.5 / max 6
10th Level Fighter (2 handed weapon)
Bonus to hit: +14/+9
Weapon Focus, G Weapon focus, Weapon Spec, Weapon Training [2], Power Attack(-3,+9)
BEST attack: ANYONE vs +15/+10, 2D6 + 19
To Hit(+15): min 16 / median 25.5 / max 35
To Hit(+10): min 11 / median 20.5 / max 30
Damage: min 21 / median 26 / max 31
10th Level Cavalier (2 Handed Weapon) (not charging)
Bonus to hit: +15/+10
Weapon Focus, Order of the Sword(+3), Power Attack(-3,+9)
Special Damage: +4D6
BEST attack: Challenged Opponent vs +15/+10, 2D6 + 15 + 4D6
To Hit(+15): min 16 / median 25.5 / max 35
To Hit(+10): min 11 / median 20.5 / max 30
Damage: min 21 / median 36 / max 51
Regular Attack: +12/+7, 2D6 + 15 (w/ PA)
To Hit(+12): min 13 / median 22.5 / max 32
To Hit(+7): min 8 / median 17.5 / max 27
Regular Damage: min 17 / median 22 / max 27
10th Level Paladin (2 Handed Weapon) (w/ smiting)
Bonus to hit: +16/+11
Weapon Focus, Power Attack(-3,+9)
Special Damage: +10 (smite)
BEST attack: vs Smite Evil Target +16/+11, 2D6 + 25
To Hit(+16): min 17 / median 26.5 / max 36
To Hit(+11): min 12 / median 21.5 / max 31
Damage: min 27 / median 32 / max 37
Regular Attack: +11/+6, 2D6 + 15 (w/ PA)
To Hit(+11): min 12 / median 21.5 / max 31
To Hit(+6): min 7 / median 16.5 / max 26
Regular Damage: min 17 / median 22 / max 27
10th Level Monk
Bonus to Hit: +13/+13/+13/+8/+8
Weapon Focus, Ki point(extra attack), Stunning fist, Ability focus(stunning fist)
BEST attack: +13/+13/+13/+8/+8, 1D10 + 4 + DC 21 Sickened for 1 Minute
To Hit 3*(+13): min 14 / median 23.5 / max 33
To Hit 3*(+8): min 9 / median 18.5 / max 28
Damage: min 5 / median 9.5 / max 14
10th Level Barbarian
Bonus to Hit: +14/+9/+9(Bite)
Weapon Focus, Power Attack(-3, +9), Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Powerful Blow(+3), Rage.
BEST attack: w/ RAGE, PA, Rage powers(All) +14/+9, 2D6 + 21 and Bite +9 1D4+7
To Hit(+14): min 15 / median 24.5 / max 34
To Hit(+9): min 10 / median 19.5 / max 29
Damage: min 23 / median 28 / max 33
Bite Damage: min 8 / median 9.5 / max 11
So in Order of MAX, MED and MIN damage per hit:
Rank MAX
1.Cavalier 51
2.Paladin 37
3.Rogue 36
4.Barbarian 33
5.Fighter 31
6.Monk* 14
Rank MED
1.Cavalier 36
2.Paladin 32
3.Barbarian 28
4.Fighter 26**
5.Rogue 22.5
6.Monk 9.5
Rank MIN
1.Paladin 27
2.Barbarian 23
3.Fighter 21**
4.Cavalier 21
5.Rogue 6
6.Monk 5
*The low rank for the monk is only because they do so little per hit,
I did not rate them on how many attacks they get. ipso facto Monk wins.
**The Fighter doles this damage out to EVERYONE default winner for all around.
Now from what I'm seeing the Cavalier is VERY capable of killing BBEG's the only competition would be the Paladin (which is another thread!).
I think this is an awesome trade off for the flat footedness, IMHO the parties rogue should be countering the opposing rogue letting the CAV (haha, call in the CAV!) do his job and focus on the BBEG. You have to apply the ROLES to each party, or at least what ROLES they could be fulfilling. I understand not all players play their role.
HOWEVER lets play a game that players DO play their PC's accordingly to ability and design.
Fighter: Tanks and Meat shields the rest of the party.
Mage: Crowd Control/BBEG destructor in the back.
Rogue: locks/traps/sneak attack/ counter INTEL.
Cleric: Heal/Buffs/secondary melee
So that being said if everyone is working as a team the CAV should be fine. oh yeah and the BBEG dead :)
That being said the CAV (for which I will call it from now on) has so much FLuff and crunch it's overwhelming, I cannot wait to see this in my game.
If you see any errors please feel free to fix them.
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If you see any errors please feel free to fix them.
Paladin's best case is against an evil dragon, undead or evil-subtype outsider.
Assuming 18 str( you didn't specify otherwise )min: 20( smite ) + 9( PA ) + 2( weapon ) + 4( str ) = 35
max: 45 ( +10 from the 2-hander )
Median: 40
I am also getting 49 on max cavalier damage( best ), but I could be missing some order or oath bonus or something.
As a side note the paladin Cav median and min damage continue to wildly diverge. At 20th level in best case scenario( the cav can make sure this happens once per combat though ):
Cav
+3d6 challenge damage( if there are other things I should be counting go ahead and add them )
min: + 3
max: + 18
median: 10.5( average on a d6 is 3.5 )
Paladin
( 2 points per level against his favored evil foes )
min: +20
max: +20
median: +20
Again, the Cavalier is probably better in most situations as he can guarantee his best case scenario once in every battle. The paladin has to get lucky to get his best case, though by 20th( assuming a 4 encounter day ) he could use smite evil almost twice per encounter( 7 smites at level 20 ).
Touche,
I didn't add the 2/level for undead and evil dragons as that has been house ruled in my campaign so it was out of my mind.
Paladin wins hand down vs those two. (but that is what they do)
Here's the beak down of the CAV damage:
2D6 (greatsword) + 6 (STR, 2 handed) + 9 (PA 2 handed) + 4D6(Challenge)
MIN: 21
MED: 36
MAX: 51 (6D6 + 15)
I agree at 20th it diverges wildly.
A paldin is doleing out +20 to Evil smitee's and +40 to Undead and evil Dragons.
The CAV is dealing out +7D6 to anyone who HAS to pay attention.
It is a huge difference between damage but the CAV has the ability to surpas the Fighter which in 3.P is hard to do.
You're making the common mistake of ignoring the fighter, barbarian, ranger, and paladin's bonus to hit. Every single one of those classes gets an increase in chance-to-hit when they're in their ideal situation (fighter using his weapon training, barbarian raging, ranger fighting favored enemy, paladin smiting). The cavalier gets no bonus to hit. That's a HUGE average damage increase to the other full BAB classes that the cavalier can't touch.
You're making the common mistake of ignoring the fighter, barbarian, ranger, and paladin's bonus to hit. Every single one of those classes gets an increase in chance-to-hit when they're in their ideal situation (fighter using his weapon training, barbarian raging, ranger fighting favored enemy, paladin smiting). The cavalier gets no bonus to hit. That's a HUGE average damage increase to the other full BAB classes that the cavalier can't touch.
Actually the CAV does get bonuses if you choose specific Orders, for example I chose the Order of the Sword for my Number Crunching example.
The CAV got a bonus of +3 to hit.The Fighter had a +2 Bonus to Hit with his Weapons training.
The Barbarian had his RAGE and a RAGE power.
The Monk his KI for the extra attack.
The Paladin his SMITE.
And your right I failed to add the Ranger who would be competitive with some favoured enemies.
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You're making the common mistake of ignoring the fighter, barbarian, ranger, and paladin's bonus to hit. Every single one of those classes gets an increase in chance-to-hit when they're in their ideal situation (fighter using his weapon training, barbarian raging, ranger fighting favored enemy, paladin smiting). The cavalier gets no bonus to hit. That's a HUGE average damage increase to the other full BAB classes that the cavalier can't touch.
In their idea fighting conditions there are various challenges or oaths that can give an attack bonus. Order of the Sword + Oath of Vengeance could give him a +4 to hit( +3 for killing a 10 HD creature + 1 from By My Honor ). Also he did not choose the best case scenario for the Cavalier as that requires him to be charging with a lance. Order of the Sword at lvl 8 get to add their mounts strength modifier to damage. He would probably have spirited charge by that point as well( the 8th level ability grants him a bonus feat as long as he has the pre-reqs ). So he's doing x3 damage on successful hit. The way I read it that multiplies all damage done by that attack please correct me if it only multiples the weapons damage dice by 3. Also, while the extra damage from Challenge is not multiplied by a critical hit, am I correct that it would be multiplied by the lance/spirited charge mechanic?
At first glance, a big disappointement, useless classes, unnecessary powers, unbalanced capacities or abilities, and a really, really ridiculous behaviour predictable from the cavalier when he will issued his oaths or challenges...
Be careful of the "WotC" virus : new books, new classes, new powers, no role play interest, no balance... I'm not sure Pathfinder RPG must evolve like the 4th ed or WOW...
No new roleplay interest? Seriously? Were we looking at the same 2 classes? The Cavalier is LOADED with roleplay, from order to oath. In fact the first thing i pictured when i read oath of chastity was the scene from monty pythons holy grail. I assure you there was no power or combat in it.
The oracles curses have signficant and interesting roleplay implecations. The haunted curse stood out to me as something that could be alot of fun in so many ways, non of them to do with combat or power.
As for the WotC virus, somehow 6 new classes in the first year of production doesnt approach the mass of classes and prestige classes we got from wizards with every splat book, let alone in the course of a year. If you arent interested in new things thats fine, but dont just shoot everything down because you dont want to see it, there are those of us that do.
At first glance, a big disappointement, useless classes, unnecessary powers, unbalanced capacities or abilities, and a really, really ridiculous behaviour predictable from the cavalier when he will issued his oaths or challenges...
Be careful of the "WotC" virus : new books, new classes, new powers, no role play interest, no balance... I'm not sure Pathfinder RPG must evolve like the 4th ed or WOW...
I'm sorry if you thought necessary to reply to my small message, it's just my first impression, my feelings after having read the new classes...
I have a small experience of RPG, and this was my contribution to Pathfinder creators... I have no interest in arguing...
Pretty hard to label your first post as a contribution, if you want to contribute than you need to explain why you feel that way with examples or numbers or something more than "It sucks"
In their idea fighting conditions there are various challenges or oaths that can give an attack bonus. Order of the Sword + Oath of Vengeance could give him a +4 to hit( +3 for killing a 10 HD creature + 1 from By My Honor ). Also he did not choose the best case scenario for the Cavalier as that requires him to be charging with a lance. Order of the Sword at lvl 8 get to add their mounts strength modifier to damage. He would probably have spirited charge by that point as well( the 8th level ability grants him a bonus feat as long as he has the pre-reqs ). So he's doing x3 damage on successful hit. The way I read it that multiplies all damage done by that attack please correct me if it only multiples the weapons damage dice by 3. Also, while the extra damage from Challenge is not multiplied by a critical hit, am I correct that it would be multiplied by the lance/spirited charge mechanic?
When criting with a lance and having the Spirited Charge feat you do 5 times damage. The extra dice from challenge isn't multiplied, but with decent strength,Power Attack using a two handed weapon, and adding your mount's Str score to your damage and a magical lance with burst on it, by 11th level you can easily get to 150ish points of damage on a critical on your challenged target.
Thoughts on Cavalier: Challenge doesn't really seem to draw fire so much as repulse it. The flanking thing is very awkward and probably could be better expressed as being flat-footed with an AC penalty. Challenge also does not appear to clear on the cavalier's own death--something I would expect.
Oath's bonuses are either too circumstantial (Abstinence, Purity), too difficult to trigger at a time when it's needed (Greed), or have too small a bonus (Justice, Loyalty, Vengeance) to really matter. Protection in particular seems backwards: you gain an AC bonus when adjacent to your protected, instead of providing your protected a bonus--this, to me, means your protected will be taking more fire as they're an easier target to hit. Further, the use of "24 hours" (Abstinence, Greed) against "day" (Justice) leaves me pause.
Expert Trainer refers to the possibility of additional mounts, but the Mount class feature says nothing about how to acquire them.
Order of the Cockatrice's 15th level ability is very strong, but it's 15th level so it's not overpowering. Comparing it's 2nd level ability to that of the Order of the Lion makes it look comparatively very weak.
Order of the Shield's 2nd level ability is very weak: it's fake damage reduction that can still render you unconscious in minuscule amounts. I'd much prefer to see straight damage reduction/-. The 15th level ability, compared to that of the Cockatrice, seems lame. Cockatrice lets you and everyone you're friends with attack, and with no penalty; instead, Order of the Shield's lets just you move and attack, and you're staggered afterwards.
Thoughts on Oracle: Lame dwarves are screwed to 10' movement. I would like to see an exemption for them.
Combat Healer already has a penalty (two slots) so it probably doesn't need to be limited on a per-day basis.
Spirit Walk should probably just act like etherealness.
Fire Breath should probably be qualified as a breath weapon. Firestorm's once/day rather than once/day/4 levels status makes it a less-than-stellar option.
Blizzard has no uses-per-day limitation.
Air Barrier's 50% miss chance is inordinately powerful: a similar spell (entropic field) only gives a 20% miss chance. Lightning Breath should probably be qualified as a breath weapon.
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I've only just started play testing the Cavalier. But one question, that has probably been addressed - but there are too many posts to look over now.
Can the cavalier challenge something that by all rights wouldn't understand a challenge? A slime or a construct for example, I can't see how all the yelling, insulting, or jumping up and down would have any combat effect on such things? As has been pointed out, really intelligent critters are going to actively remove themselves from attacking the cavalier. How many Red Dragons are going to be thinking, man that cavalier is just so cool I'm going to fight him in such away that he can use his cool cavalier power of "smacking me upside the head"?
The role of this power is to have a monster "holding mechanic" for this class. I think others seem to agree that this isn't the best way to go about it. 4e has a mechanic, but again it falls apart if your fighting person has too high of an armor class - which makes little sense also. Tricky one, but in this case very difficult to envision how it would look "in game".
For example;
Cavalier: "I jump at the green slime yelling insults about its pseudopod and implying that it is teal rather than green."
Cavalier reaches for a bucket of d6's for damage.
DM: "What you doing?"
Cavalier: "MEGA-CHALLENGE DAMAGE!!! Urrrrgh!"
DM: "It's a slime dude, it doesn't understand you or care you are acting like a loon in front of it."
Cavalier: "But I'm challenging it!"
DM: "No you're challenging my sanity and that's about it."
Oracle - hmmmmm, a Divine Sorcerer. Didn't see that coming. Just not feeling it sorry.
2 cents,
S.
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though i wont have a chance to playtest them till next week, i did go ahead a stat up two mid level NPC's to use as villains. 1 9th level Cav, and 1 10th level oracle. here's what i came up with
Sir Fredrick Bern, General CR 8
Male human cavalier 9 (order of lion)
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses normal; Perception +1
Defense
AC 25, touch 11, flat-footed 25
(+9 armor, +4 shield, -1 Dex, +1 natural, +2 level)
Hp 76 (9d10+27)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +5
Offense
Speed 4 (20 ft.)
Melee +1 longsword +14 (1d8+5/17–20)
Range mwk flintlock pistol +9 (2d6/19–20)
Special Attacks challenge +3d6 (+3 AC), oath of vengeance, cavalier’s charge
Statistics
Str 18, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +9; CMB +13; CMD 22
Feats Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Initiative, Lighting Reflexes, Mounted Combat, Power Attack (-3/+6), Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Toughness
Skills Athletics +16, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (nobility) +13 (+17 in sovereign), Survival +10 (+14 with mount)
Languages Common, Elven, Dwarven
SQ mount, oath, banner, lions call, for the king
Combat Gear elixir of fire breath, 2 potions of cure moderate wounds (CL 3rd), 9 potions of cure light wounds (CL 1st)
Other Gear +1 longsword, mwk flintlock pistol with 30 bullets, mwk full plate, mw tower shield, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of resistance +1
Madam Roselle Bern, High Magi CR 9
Female human oracle 10 (battle)
LE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses darkvision within 60 ft., blindsense 30ft.; Perception +1
Defense
AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 16
(+4 armor, +1 shield, -1 Dex, +2 level)
Hp 65 (10d8+20)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +10
Defensive Abilities battlefield clarity, light fortification
Offense
Speed 6 (30 ft.)
Melee stave +10/+5 (1d6+3/19–20)
Melee stave +10 (2d6+3/19–20)
Range mwk flintlock pistol +6/+1 (2d6/19–20)
Range mwk flintlock pistol +6 (4d6/19–20)
Special Attacks orisons, maneuver mastery (trip)
Spells Known (CL 10th)
5th (3/day) – Breath of Life
4th (6/day) – Cure Serious Wounds, Divine Power (+3), Wall of Fire (DC 20)
3rd (7/day) – Bestow Curse (DC 19), Inflict Serious Wounds (DC 19), Magic Vestment, Wind Wall
2nd (7/day) – Augury, Bull’s Strength, Fog Cloud, Hold Person (DC 18), Resist Energy
1st (8/day) – Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor (+3), Enlarge Person, Obscuring Mist, Shield of Faith (+3 AC)
0 (at will) – Bleed (DC 16), Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Stabilize
Statistics
Str 14, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +9 (+14 trip); CMD 18
Feats Combat Casting, Heighten Spell, Improved CriticalB, Improved Initiative, Lighting Reflexes, Vital Strike, Toughness, Weapon FocusB
Skills Athletics +13, Craft (Alchemy) +13, Insight +13, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (history) +13, Spellcraft +16
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ focus (battle), curse (clouded vision), weapon mastery, battlefield clarity
Combat Gear 3 potions of cure moderate wounds (CL 3rd), 7 potions of cure light wounds (CL 1st)
Other Gear staff of magi (new item), +1 light fortification chitin, mwk mantel, cloak of resistance +2, pearl of power (1st level spell), 35 pp (3,500 gp)
my first instinct is that the oracle feels weaker to me than the cavalier, but when the oracle buffs up, not so much. Her damage output is way higher.
now i will say that as for role play opportunities, i love them. I love the fact that she is sorta "blind" and she wears a helmet (mantel) that covers her eyes.
oh, i do have to mention that i use a couple of house rules. I have an athletics skill instead of climb, swim, and ride. And i also add 1/4 of their level to AC as a defense bonus. Aside from two minor house rules, i love these characters.
For example;
Cavalier: "I jump at the green slime yelling insults about its pseudopod and implying that it is teal rather than green."
Cavalier reaches for a bucket of d6's for damage.
DM: "What you doing?"
Cavalier: "MEGA-CHALLENGE DAMAGE!!! Urrrrgh!"
DM: "It's a slime dude, it doesn't understand you or care you are acting like a loon in front of it."
Cavalier: "But I'm challenging it!"
DM: "No you're challenging my sanity and that's about it."
Oozes are immune to precision damage, so the Cavalier is welcome to challenge it but gets no damage-related bonuses for doing so.
Hello:
These are some of the points that I believe need clarifying/amendment to the cavalier’s special abilities:
Mount:
Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount, such as a boar, camel, dog, horse, pony, or wolf (depending on his size and level, as such, boars and dogs are not suitable until 4th level). A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability. A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves. Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level.
Proposed Amendment:
Mount (Ex) A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as her effective druid level. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium cavalier) or a pony (for a Small cavalier), although more exotic mounts, such as a bear, boar, camel, or dog are also suitable, depending on his size and level. For example, boars and dogs are not suitable until 4th level. Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion’s Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the cavalier advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion.A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability. Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level.
The sentence "A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves." should be eliminated because there is no logical clausal relationship to the previous sentence or paragraph, that is, it is a non sequitur.
The proposed changes put the cavalier's mount ability on par with the paladin's, and ranger's special abilities by standardizing the terminology dealing with animal companions/mounts.
In the Oaths section, page 3,
" Whenever the cavalier completes an oath, he can swear another or he can keep his existing oath, if it is still applicable. A cavalier can abandon an oath, but he cannot swear a new oath to replace the abandoned oath for at least 24 hours."
The proposed change should be:
Whenever the cavalier completes an oath, he can swear another or he can keep his existing oath, if it is still applicable. A cavalier can withdraw an oath, but he cannot swear a new oath to replace the withdrawn oath for at least 24 hours.
I would not believe a cavalier would "abandon" an oath, he would withdraw it or revoke it in favor of a new one.
Same section, "Some oaths require the cavalier to keep the oath to maintain the bonus and must be abandoned to select a different oath."
Should be amended to:
Some oaths require the cavalier to keep the oath in order to maintain the bonus while other oaths must be withdrawn (revoked) to select a different oath.
In the Order of the Lion, page 6:
"A cavalier who belongs to this order has pledged himself to a sovereign, be it a king, queen, or even the local warlord." (Incorrect colon usage, needs a semi-colon after "sovereign").
Should be amended to:
A cavalier who belongs to this order has pledged himself to a sovereign; be it a king, queen, or even the local warlord.
In the Order of the Star, page 7
For the Faith (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can call upon his faith to bolster himself in combat. As a free action, the cavalier can call out the name of his deity, granting him a morale bonus on attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier for 1 round.
Should be amended to:
For the Faith (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can call upon his faith to bolster himself in combat. As a free action, the cavalier can invoke the name of his deity, granting him a morale bonus on attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier for 1 round.
I have only really checked out the cavalier; I believe its a great class with a lot of potential. the proposed amendments could help clarify some points, especially with the mount special ability.
I hope this helps.
BTW, Pathfinder ROCKS!!!
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When criting with a lance and having the Spirited Charge feat you do 5 times damage. The extra dice from challenge isn't multiplied, but with decent strength,Power Attack using a two handed weapon, and adding your mount's Str score to your damage and a magical lance with burst on it, by 11th level you can easily get to 150ish points of damage on a critical on your challenged target.
In their idea fighting conditions there are various challenges or oaths that can give an attack bonus. Order of the Sword + Oath of Vengeance could give him a +4 to hit( +3 for killing a 10 HD creature + 1 from By My Honor ). Also he did not choose the best case scenario for the Cavalier as that requires him to be charging with a lance. Order of the Sword at lvl 8 get to add their mounts strength modifier to damage. He would probably have spirited charge by that point as well( the 8th level ability grants him a bonus feat as long as he has the pre-reqs ). So he's doing x3 damage on successful hit. The way I read it that multiplies all damage done by that attack please correct me if it only multiples the weapons damage dice by 3. Also, while the extra damage from Challenge is not multiplied by a critical hit, am I correct that it would be multiplied by the lance/spirited charge mechanic?
Where do you get x5? And when did they clarify that the Challenge damage was not multiplied? ( not that you are wrong, I just wanted to confirm that this was ruled on and not an opinon )
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Can the cavalier challenge something that by all rights wouldn't understand a challenge? A slime or a construct for example, I can't see how all the yelling, insulting, or jumping up and down would have any combat effect on such things? As has been pointed out, really intelligent critters are going to actively remove themselves from attacking the cavalier. How many Red Dragons are going to be thinking, man that cavalier is just so cool I'm going to fight him in such away that he can use his cool cavalier power of "smacking me upside the head"?
As I understand it, yes. The cavalier can challenge any creature. It's not about the CREATURE that makes it 'challenged' as the creature doesn't take a penalty when challenged and does not need to even know it's being attacked.
For example: Cavalier v Slime.
Slime attacks Rogue, Cavalier Challenges Slime and lays into Slime, Slime continues attacking Rogue, Cavalier keeps wailing on Slime, Slime dies.
No intelligence/sentience is required and no acknowledgement of the challenge is needed. The challenge, RAW, would indicate the Cavalier's focus, not the opponent's.
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oh, i also forgot to mention
+1 for renaming foci to mysteries. I like foci, but mysteries is way cooler.
secondly, i think Cha works great for Oracles. So what if a sorc/orc/mystic theurge would be strong, they wouln't be getting high level spells, bloodline powers, or foci/mysteries from either class.
As I understand it, yes. The cavalier can challenge any creature. It's not about the CREATURE that makes it 'challenged' as the creature doesn't take a penalty when challenged and does not need to even know it's being attacked.For example: Cavalier v Slime.
Slime attacks Rogue, Cavalier Challenges Slime and lays into Slime, Slime continues attacking Rogue, Cavalier keeps wailing on Slime, Slime dies.
No intelligence/sentience is required and no acknowledgement of the challenge is needed. The challenge, RAW, would indicate the Cavalier's focus, not the opponent's.
True, but it would be a waste of his challenge, since he can't get his precision damage. Oozes are one of the few things still immune to precision damage.
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Can the cavalier challenge something that by all rights wouldn't understand a challenge? A slime or a construct for example, I can't see how all the yelling, insulting, or jumping up and down would have any combat effect on such things? As has been pointed out, really intelligent critters are going to actively remove themselves from attacking the cavalier. How many Red Dragons are going to be thinking, man that cavalier is just so cool I'm going to fight him in such away that he can use his cool cavalier power of "smacking me upside the head"?
As I understand it, yes. The cavalier can challenge any creature. It's not about the CREATURE that makes it 'challenged' as the creature doesn't take a penalty when challenged and does not need to even know it's being attacked.
For example: Cavalier v Slime.
Slime attacks Rogue, Cavalier Challenges Slime and lays into Slime, Slime continues attacking Rogue, Cavalier keeps wailing on Slime, Slime dies.
No intelligence/sentience is required and no acknowledgement of the challenge is needed. The challenge, RAW, would indicate the Cavalier's focus, not the opponent's.
Firstly, someone has already pointed out slime would be immune*. But my sentiment holds.
Ok, IF the ability is completely driven by the Cavalier, why can they only do this to one target. If they are that precise and good with a weapon and it only takes a swift action to become so, why only once per combat? Make no sense. Let's say the cavalier X choose monster A, who dies on round two and Cavalier Y chooses monster B who dies on round 8. Why can Cavalier B keep up this precise onslaught for 8 rounds, where as Cavalier A is all out of precision by round 2?
The power just reads as a game mechanic to which some hasty words were put around. We would have had enough of this in 4e I would think.
I can be sold on the ability for sure, but right now it's very, very role-playing bland.
S.
PS: Slimes don't seem to be covered in the pfRPG Bestiary...
Where do you get x5? And when did they clarify that the Challenge damage was not multiplied? ( not that you are wrong, I just wanted to confirm that this was ruled on and not an opinon )
You can check it out here, all in the same section under multiplying damage:
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
So a X3 crit on a d8 weapon would be your original d8 plus 2 more d8's. Two x3 crits would be your original d8 plus 2 sets of 2d8's or 5X damage.
As for the challenge extra damage, it says it is precision damage which is extra damage dice.
I just went over all of this with a friend as he was playing the "cavalier" with Pathfinder rules and Sunday we converted him to the actual cavalier class.
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Firstly, someone has already pointed out slime would be immune*. But my sentiment holds.
Ok, IF the ability is completely driven by the Cavalier, why can they only do this to one target. If they are that precise and good with a weapon and it only takes a swift action to become so, why only once per combat? Make no sense. Let's say the cavalier X choose monster A, who dies on round two and Cavalier Y chooses monster B who dies on round 8. Why can Cavalier B keep up this precise onslaught for 8 rounds, where as Cavalier A is all out of precision by round 2?
The power just reads as a game mechanic to which some hasty words were put around. We would have had enough of this in 4e I would think.
I can be sold on the ability for sure, but right now it's very, very role-playing bland.
S.
PS: Slimes don't...
Maybe instead of once a combat a mechanic that left the Cavalier fatigued after using "Challenge"...that level of tenacity is bound to be tiring. Possibly even limiting it to a number of rounds based on level. Fatigue setting in when that time has expired/the Cavalier vanquishes the target/the Cavalier stops voluntarily.
-Weylin
Now that makes sense to me.
I posted this on other threads but I wanted an opinion from you guys.
I think the Oracle's spell list needs help. I think the cleric list is fine but the bonus spells awarded should be more of a choice then a "cleric domain -force this spell onto you choice". For one thing I noticed that the uber 20th level ability holds little power in some of the "Focus" areas. If you look at the Wind Focus the following are the only spells that have the air/lightning subtype that the class hands to you:
1) Gust of Wind
2) Control Winds
3) Whirlwind
From the Cleric list you could choose these spells as spell known to add to the list:
1) Wind Wall
2) Air Walk
3) Wind Walk
4) Summon Monster VI (Invisible Stalker)
5) Gate
And that's it. Maybe these following spells are typo's in the Pathfinder book because they have air or lightning effects but not the "subtype" so therefore are unaffected by the Final Revalation ability:
1) Control Weather
2) Storm of Vengence
3) Summon Monster I - V and VII - IX (elementals are listed as "Elemental" subtype not "Air or Lightning")
I personally suggest allowing the players access to all the following Air/Lightning spells (which are all the ones in the book" not already discussed:
1) Shocking Grasp
2) Whispering Wind
3) Call Lightning
4) Lightning Bolt
5) Call Lightning Storm
6) Chain Lightning
7) Summon Nature's Ally VIII (Cloud Giant only)
8) Elemental Swarm
I also would like to see the oracle take the role of a seer and suggest the following additions (I am not 100% about these):
1) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
2) Arcane Eye
3) Detect Scrying
I have not looked as deep into the other Foci but I share similar complaints about them.
Perhaps taking VedounMar's suggestion
-- The Favored Soul's(Complete Divine) spell progression seems more appropriate for a divine caster...--
this would be a good idea (I am not 100% sure about this but right now it sounds good) as long as you get rid of the "bonus spell idea" and add my suggested spells above to the list they get access to... maybe make the player take at least 1 air/lightning spell of their choice at each level or whatever is appropriate for their oracles Focus.
I posted this on another thread but it is also relevant here.
I was thinking just now that I would prefer the cleric spell list that they have with the addition of all Air/Lightning spells for the Wind Focus... All Acid/Earth spells to the Stone Foci... All Fire spells to the Flame Focus... All Necromancy spells to the Bones Focus... All ??? (not sure what) to the Battle Focus... and All Cold/Water spells to the Wave Focus.
The reason I don't favor the druid spell list is then you could see the Flame Focus with control winds or whirlwind which should be only for the Wind Focus or some other such nonsense.
I also do not favor a unique spell list because I always find them annoying when new product comes out. Think of the Hexblades spell list from 3.5, it hardly ever got new spells when new product came out.
What about the Assassin... that was even worse in 3.5... maybe 1 book added 2 spells to their list.
Whatever they do, they need the spells to match the Focus. Nothing is more annoying then saying that you have the Wind Focus and can cast only 4-5 wind/lightning spells at level 20. The Druid/Sorceror/Wizard gets more than that by then ;)
Okay Oracle... liked it but one big BIG thing that turned me off the whole thing flat out... Why isn't the Harrow Deck a Focus?! I mean Paizo makes the deck, they make a prestige class involving it, why the heck not have it as atleast an option when it comes to the focuses. You can read waves, bones, fire, the wind or even the earth but not cards?! Really now?!Probably because to do it justice, it'd need a mini-supplement just for that. Which doesn't mean that it's not in the cards.. so to speak.
I can understand that though still it wouldn't hurt to leave it as an option a Focus: Fate. Since well I bought the harrow deck after seeing harrower and enjoyed the class. So much so that when I heard of oracle I first thought and hoped they'd divine through different things which they did and I do love the little curses. I was just dissapointed that it didn't have through all the potential focuses the harrow deck was not one of them. I do hope that they include it though.
Okay you bought this book, so here's how you can play this class. Oh but if you want to know about playing this part of the class.. you gotta buy another book. That might not have gone over well marketing wise.
What, you mean nothing in the APG will reference any other book? If the Inquisitor gets Uncanny Dodge, they won't reference the Rogue class ability?
Also, there's nothing that says they have to reference the Harrow deck at all. They included rules for people without Harrow decks in every single other place they're used (Curse of the Crimson Throne AP, the Harrower prestige class in the Campaign Setting, etc). Get your stick out of the mud.
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Personally, I like the fact that the Oracle is not tied to the Harrow Deck. That is more a gypsy thing, and I kind of prefer my Ravenloft one more. But there is no reason that you can't play an Oracle that uses the Harrow. I want to say there are a few feats and spells specifically about that (in Campaign setting) that such an Oracle (of Knowledge?) could easily take.
Creative Director
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Personally, I like the fact that the Oracle is not tied to the Harrow Deck. That is more a gypsy thing, and I kind of prefer my Ravenloft one more. But there is no reason that you can't play an Oracle that uses the Harrow. I want to say there are a few feats and spells specifically about that (in Campaign setting) that such an Oracle (of Knowledge?) could easily take.
The Harrow deck is very much a Golarion thing. There are oracles in Golarion, but the oracle class herself is suitable for any setting, not just Golarion. Tying her to the Harrow deck was never an intention.
All I know is this, the Cavalier needs to be different and unique to the prestige class in Complete Warrior and the Knight in PHB2. It can have some similarities, but also still vastly different. Also, it's confusing between Cavalier PrC and Cavalier the Pathfinder Class, maybe if the Pathfinder Cavalier can be called something else, the Gallant or something?
As for the Oracle, I need something to replace the Favored Soul and this looks like it could be it. Except I believe it needs: Medium Armor proficiency, all good saves, and the option of choosing Channel Energy as an alternative class ability.
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Personally, I like the fact that the Oracle is not tied to the Harrow Deck. That is more a gypsy thing, and I kind of prefer my Ravenloft one more. But there is no reason that you can't play an Oracle that uses the Harrow. I want to say there are a few feats and spells specifically about that (in Campaign setting) that such an Oracle (of Knowledge?) could easily take.The Harrow deck is very much a Golarion thing. There are oracles in Golarion, but the oracle class herself is suitable for any setting, not just Golarion. Tying her to the Harrow deck was never an intention.
Sorry, I mean a "gypsy fortune-teller" in Galorian or "carnival psychic palm reader" in Galorian, rather than earth Gypsy.
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The flanking thing is very awkward and probably could be better expressed as being flat-footed with an AC penalty.
I agree. I think that this would be a step in the right direction. Th major concern I have seen over the Cavalier's Challenge ability is the AC penalty, which opens him up to Sneak Attack. To quote a player in my regular campaign, "It's a cavalier? I'll just ready my attack until he issues his challenge... EVERY TIME!"
The way it is worded, a Cavalier cannot even benefit from a dip into Rogue (or Barbarian) for Improved Uncanny Dodge. While I understand the idea to, in general, discourage level dips, this is already covered by Favored Class bonuses and Capstone abilities. If the Cavalier's player wants to take a dip into Rogue, and loose out on other great Cavalier abilities, that should be the player's choice... not something forced by making it mechanically useless.
AS a PFS judge, I often look at a class no further than 12th level; the highest level allowed for Organized Play right now. A PFS Cavalier (with two levels of Rogue to compensate for his Challenge), will NEVER get to use Mighty Charge or Demanding Challenge... and Sneak Attack damage and Challenge damage should not be able to stack except for in EXTREME circumstances.
I was delighted by the flavor of the oracle class, so a friend and I ran a couple playtest scenarios this evening, comparing it to a cleric of the same level (we used levels 1 and 8)
Short story: Life as a low-level oracle stinks, but it gets better.
As far as spellcasting went, well, the oracle had a couple more spells... but healing has always been the most efficient uses of divine magic. The oracle was stuck with one non-healing spell (went with sanctuary, in light of the armor deficiency), while the cleric had his three. If I spent *all* of my daily spells on healing (4 x 1d8+1), I could just almost keep up with the cleric's energy channeling (4 x 1d6, intelligently used to hit multiple party members) and then he still had his 2 + domain to play with.
Of course, if one goes with the Battle focus (mystery, is it now?) and the Skill at Arms revelation, the oracle becomes a hefty tank. But I don't want to be a tank, and it bothered me that the Battle focus was by far the most potent-seeming of the bunch despite that.
Level 8:
Feats brought both characters to pretty even arms and equipment distribution. I liked having a few more skills than the cleric, but we all know the value of extra points in sense motive is highly campaign-dependent. In spellcasting, the cleric kept his lead in maximum healing capability. I deliberately opted away from that specific role, but I still felt compelled to fill up a couple precious spell slots with healing spells that the snooty blighter got free of charge. Honestly, there aren't many other exciting spells for divine folks to go for at this level.
I went for a very combat-averse build, so Summon Monster IV was the darling of the trial. With Wind focus giving me access to the best evasive revelations - invisibility and flight - I was pretty well safe from all harm. Then the cleric broke out his travel and trickery domain spells, proving he could hide nearly as well as I could.
Spell volume came into play more at the higher level, and the oracle had better stamina in that respect since the revelations were subbing for spell slots. But... I still ended up spending most of those slots on heal spells, so I'm not sure it proves anything. Cleric definitely cleaned me out when it came to fixing up a badly con-damaged party.
Obviously the point of sorcerer-style casting is to trade off selection for spontaneity, but honestly there just aren't enough tricks in the divine bag (at least right now) for that to really match the balance struck between wizards and sorcerers.
Anyhow, my conclusions:
Early on, oracles just don't compete. They need a class ability to match up with channel energy, or to push a bit more power in the abilities that stand.
On the other hand, they appear fairly well balanced against clerics at higher levels. I would still like to see a couple more spells known. Oracles are terrible at the cleric's oh-so-important job of exotic patch-up, and only marginally better at offensive/utility magic, if at all.
The foci (mysteries) are cool high concepts, and each one has enough powers to be appealing. Unfortunately, a lot of the revelations are rather lacking in appeal - why take a 7/day touch for d6+1 acid (or whatever) when you can peg someone with a crossbow for d10 from a safe distance away, and take a sweet blowing-up revelation instead?
What I'm getting at is that the foci feel like they want to be recast in the same vein as the sorcerer bloodline abilities: rigid progression for all 20 levels. Maybe you get the acid touch and resistance 5 at level 1, then shard explosion at 3, earth glide at 6, etc.. This would let more of the quirky, esoteric ones get use by players, and clean up the messy "you must be x level to select y revelation" addenda.
Lastly, I must say I find the level 20 abilities for the elemental foci to be fairly uninspiring. I'd vote to spice them up - I'm much more interested in building up to bizarro supernatural abilities than free metamagic. I like the battle and bone foci - perhaps more riffing on class and spell abilities would work?
I do agree, the Oracle bonus spells need a little help. Half of the battle and bones spells are already on the cleric's list, and the stone, waves, and wind clerics won't ever have a chance to use their final revelations.
obviously, no desire to step on anyone's toes, but taking spells of other classes here and there makes characters interesting (especially as enemies. My players were very confused when the Orc druids they were facing started fireballing them).
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On our Wednesday game a friend of mine decided to give the Cavalier a shot, and after 3 hours of game this are theconclusions we reached.
- The flanking thing came up only once during the session when we were fighting a bunch of goblins that outnumbered us, all it did basically was give the flanking goblin a better possitioning than it woul have otherwise had while flaking.
- Step Up is almost a must for Cavaliers
- The oaths felt needlesly complicated, the player opted for just ignoing them instead of trying to fulfill them to get such minor bonuses.
- The challenge mechanic worked beautifully, riding without using hands and TWF made for a very solid amount of damage.
- At one point he wanted to give a speech and realized he didn´t have perform (oratory) as a skill.
SUGGESTIONS.
- Keep the challenge as it is, everyoneliked it. Just maybe adding somehting that hinders the bad guy from just avoiding the cavalier, something like the duelist´s no withdrawal thing.
- The oaths need to be reworked, they feel very clunky. A simpler way to handle it could be to give bonuses related to an oath when it being fullfilled. Something like +2 against poison and desease as long as you refrain from consuming alcohol and drugs (oath of abstinence)
- Mostly out of flavor, Perform (oratory) please.
What I'm getting at is that the foci feel like they want to be recast in the same vein as the sorcerer bloodline abilities: rigid progression for all 20 levels. Maybe you get the acid touch and resistance 5 at level 1, then shard explosion at 3, earth glide at 6, etc.. This would let more of the quirky, esoteric ones get use by players, and clean up the messy "you must be x level to select y revelation" addenda.
Really? That's what I like about that class. It's so customizable. I see it as the way the rigid-20 level progression abilities should have been done, so you weren't locked into power X that you hate to play the bloodline you like.
On my first read through it seems a bit complique and open for alot of gish, however I am going ahead with the build. One huge issue I have noticed with the initial release, is a lack of a focus that, well, focuses on healing. Is this coming or is the oracle not supposed to be a healer?
Really? That's what I like about that class. It's so customizable. I see it as the way the rigid-20 level progression abilities should have been done, so you weren't locked into power X that you hate to play the bloodline you like.
Well, the idea would be that powers people hate - presumably the less potent ones - would be embedded in the progression along with the flashier ones people like.
Moreover, what happens when people can pick abilities they like is that they grab the flashiest, best ones first, leaving late picks as the dregs. As an example, with my Wind focus oracle:
Level 1: Lightning Breath. I wanted an attack ability.
Level 3: Invisibility. Easy pick.
Level 7: Wings of Air. Swift flight + invisibility? Rock on.
Then it becomes difficult
Level 11: Thunderburst? Its the only other attack power they get.
Level 15: Wind Sight. Nifty concept, would have been useful at lower levels but I had better things to choose.
Level 19: Gaseous Form. Silly, but it's the most useful of the bunch.
Now, the stuff that I didn't go for?
Air Armor - I liked the concept, but I couldn't envision a time when the effect's bonus would be higher than regular armor. At level 7 it's a nonmagical chain shirt, and at 11 its a breastplate. Toss in enhancement bonuses and it never catches up. That means it's only good for giving 50% ranged deflection, which is, what, a 3rd level spell effect these days?
Spark Skin - specific energy resistance is always such a narrow ability. I don't want to spend 4 levels of progression in order to replicate the effects of a 2nd level spell. Its good flavor, but not powerful enough to pick.
Touch of Electricity - Piddly damage at all levels, plus the limitation of touch range and per-day uses? 90% of the time, you'll be better off with a morningstar. Automatic shocking weapons are cool, but by the time you get the bonus, you may as well just buy yourself electrified weapons.
Vortex Spells - Divine casters have how many spells that require attack rolls? Three? And I have to pick them over the more useful damage or healing spells? Poor return on investment.
Now, I'm not saying these powers should necessarily be more potent, but as they are it'll inevitably happen that later picks will be less exciting than early ones, and many will just get ignored. That's a bad dynamic - you want people to be pumped up for level 15 so they don't jump ship for some prestige class. Revelations come too far apart to be chosen frivolously.
Me, I'd rather have a set progression that just *gives* me increasingly potent powers, including incidentals like resistance and touch attacks. Given that the oracle is based on the sorcerer scheme, it only makes sense to translate the bloodline mechanic as well.
That's my 2c, anyhow.
Maeloke - This post is the essential problem I have with these two classes; there doesn't seem to be any "base class" in there, it's like two character classes built entirely from class options. It lends itself to alot of powerplaying and cookie cutter builds.
Although this is the "Advanced" player's guide, I still don't think it should be this complicated to build a character. Structuring especially the Oracle in a similar fashion to the Sorceror would simplify this. It is already based entirely off of the class, why go so far to differentiate it?
I mentioned it earlier, but I'll say it again. The Oracle really screams allot of roleplaying options. I am the one stuck GMing, lol, but i would really LOVE to play an oracle. I cane see a Dwarven Oracle with Battle Focus and the Spirits Curse. Would also fit in great in the Ebberon setting for a Valenar Elf.
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I agree. I love some of the concepts that the Oracle can allow. I've been wanting to play a kooky, insane priest. While I pulled it off in 3E, it took a lot of mechinics to do it, and the Oracle works well.
I also love the way a Battle Oracle looks. I can think of so many concepts I want to play, (and also can't help but love how it essentually gives the finger to all the DM's that say clerics must have a deity j/k).
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Hope this is the right place to post this because it looks like the offical playtest thread. Board is too long to read all posts so if already covered please excuse:
For the final draft - please address the fact that there is no value for starting wealth at 1st level provided. At least our group hasn't been able to find it. Any suggestions? We are starting in a week and in lieu of an answer we will probably use 5d6 x 10 for Cavalier and 2d6 x 10 for Oracle. Just my assumptions keeping in line with the other classes in table 6-1 p. 140.
Maeloke - This post is the essential problem I have with these two classes; there doesn't seem to be any "base class" in there, it's like two character classes built entirely from class options. It lends itself to alot of powerplaying and cookie cutter builds.
Although this is the "Advanced" player's guide, I still don't think it should be this complicated to build a character. Structuring especially the Oracle in a similar fashion to the Sorceror would simplify this. It is already based entirely off of the class, why go so far to differentiate it?
To be fair, barbarians and rogues have a similar dilemma in choosing their class abilities - huge lists that must be examined anew every other level. The problem isn't that it's overly complicated - it's that the options for each focus are just limited enough to stifle more 'interesting' or 'flavorful' choices in favor of utility ones (at least, for those of us in campaigns with poor survival rates). I would LOVE to have a character with the ability to see through earth and stone... but I couldn't bring myself to choose that over something definitively improves my odds of making it back out of the wilderness intact.
As I said, I'm with you in wanting to choose a focus and just have a set progression of powers and bonus spells as I advance, as a sorcerer. Otherwise, there *is* the option of retooling the focus abilities to be less... focused, and just have one massive list to choose from, with weaker powers chosen more often. That would fix the trouble with limited choices, but it would probably also kill a lot of the flavor of the class.