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BTW- you got me on the LOTR call. I read alot of Fantasy, but put Tolkien down after I read Fellowship. Great plotline but too longwinded for me (he went on and on and on about the design of the bed Frodo wakes in after being stabbed.) in most sections.
My reference was based on the movie scene at helm's deep, where Legolas is TWF'ing with knives and rides a shield down the stairs.
Apologies. My book knowledge is much better on FR or Dragonlance.
I feel a sadness come over me.
The chapter 'Many Meetings' begins:
"Frodo woke and found himself lying in bed. At first he thought that he had slept late, after a long unpleasant dream that still hovered on the edge of memory. Or perhaps he had been ill? But the ceiling looked strange; it was flat, and it had dark beams richly carved. He lay a little while longer looking at patches of sunlight on the wall, and listening to the sound of a waterfall"
And then Frodo starts chatting to Gandalf.
This is actually pretty awesome writing. We were left on a clff-hanger, not knowing if Frodo was alive or dead, and when he wakes Frodo is uncertain and confused, his uncertainty and confusion mirroring the reader's own bewilderment at the sudden shift of pace and tension.
That's the writer's craft, right there!
longwinded... [grumble, grumble]death of culture[/grumble, grumble]
I feel a sadness come over me.
Lots of people, even fantasy fans, think LOTR is overrated.
They, of course, are very, very wrong. However, I can't deny that there are a lot of them.
"too many details" or "too much travelling" are the most common complaints I hear. There are a lot of details, and the story details a lot of travelling. The books don't have nearly as much action as the movies, but deal more with building tension and setting. This appeals to some more than others.
Well that was simply the style at the time. If you want long winded read some Jules Verne. The man was as much a biologist as he was a writer adn he loved tot alk about inane facts or speculation about animals people were finding washed up on the beach.
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I feel a sadness come over me.
Lots of people, even fantasy fans, think LOTR is overrated.
They, of course, are very, very wrong. However, I can't deny that there are a lot of them.
"too many details" or "too much travelling" are the most common complaints I hear. There are a lot of details, and the story details a lot of travelling. The books don't have nearly as much action as the movies, but deal more with building tension and setting. This appeals to some more than others.
I actually think the books should be read alongside Robert Frost, Edward Thomas and even Eliot. The postWW1 disillusionment with industrialisation and the rekindling of the bucolic, pastoral undercurrent in British writing is one of the key themes of the period.
I use Tolkein as a model text for a whole host of writing techniques.
I can see at upper levels if you can IE fairly regularly how this build is doing more melee damage than the switch hitter build.
It looks to me that he is doing less damage with both melee and range from levels 1-9 unless he is fighting a FE (luck)
Agreed. Although you can get FE regularly if you make good picks. Still nothing is garaunteed.
At level 11 now he can definitely use IE at least once per day. Here's the first point I'm seeing any measurable advantage here. Now, the Ranger can (against one enemy, once per day - maybe twice per day) have a higher melee damage output than the switch hitter (still lower at range).Assuming 4 combats/day, some of which the Ranger will fight more than one enemy, this tactic still is not applying to most combats (though you could always get lucky and be fighting FE)
At levels 15+ you can now expect to use the IE tactic a minimum of twice per day. I would guesstimate 4 times per day if you focus. Now I'm seeing a balance, more damage in melee regularly, and less damage at range. A fair trade off.
Am I missing something? Seems to me that the advantage of using FE with TWF for more melee attacks isn't really going to pay off until very high levels unless you get lucky and fight lots of favored enemies.
Agreed. It doesn't take off till after you get instant enemy.
If I could still edit, I'd note that this doesn't really see great results till level 11+.I'd probably also mention I'd also likely need at least 20 point buy to work (since he'll DEX for TWF and STR for damage. Your switcher is less dex dependent)
I've had another look at the TWF/Thrower build.
Re-did it wih TWF as the combat style. Since the throwers ranged damage is from extra TWF attacks, it really only needs Deadly Aim and Quick draw to work, damage wise.
Doing it this way reduces the need to dex on a point buy to the same level as Treantmonk's build (since you won't need the mega high dex for TWF Combat Style- a 14 should do)
It also lets you get your TWF chain going earlier:
1- Favored Enemy 1, Track, Wild Empathy, TWF, Power Attack,
2- Double Slice
3- Endurance, Favored Terrain 1 (forest), Quickdraw
4- Hunter's Bond (Wolf)
5- Favored Enemy 2, Deadly Aim
6- ITWF
7- Woodland Stride, Paired Oppourtunists
8- Swift Tracker, Favored Terrain 2 (underground)
9- Evasion, Craft Wand
10- Favored Enemy 3, Two Weapon Rend
11- Quarry, Dazing Assault
12- Camouflage
13- 3rd Favored Terrain (urban), Bonded Companion
14- Gtr Two Weapon Fighting
15- Favored Enemy 4, Outflank
16- Improved Evasion
17- Hide in Plain Sight, Co-ordinated Charge
18- Favored Terrain 4 (mountains), Two Weapon Defense
19- Improved Quarry, Combat Reflexes
20- Favored Enemy 5, Master Hunter
Differences-
1.You no longer have improved precise shot so cover and throwing into melee is an issue.
2. Having Craft Wand lets you create wands of your utility spells, freeing up all 3rd level slots for instant enemy. Most of your good buffs a standard to cast anyway. It also lets you make a wand of instant enemy for stealth buffing pre-combat.
3. Your animal buddy (wolf) is stronger in this build and more likely to land trips.
4. By taking co-ordinated charge at 17, (the wolf takes it at 18) you can grant each other free immediate action charge attacks. This reduces the need for ranged since they allow you to close for free and melee full attack on your turn. Late trick but the wolf doesn't qualify until 17 (BAB)
Note: this is a very powerful teamwork feat and should probably be an auto-select on any animal companion build.
This, on paper, seems a little stronger. Now sure what you think about it. Certainly wouldn't go in the guide anyway (since the guide is core only) but given the teamwork free charges ability, this build would probably find itself full attacking adjacent opponents alot more.
Teamwork feats: Does the co-ordinated charge feat pretty much negate the need for switch hitting (at least when you get it at 10- earliest) and access to flying?
If a build forgot ranged feats he COULD get Paired Oppourtunists, Outflank and Co-ordinated charge by 10. (He'd also need another full bab char willing to invest 3 teamwork feats.) Constantly getting immediate action charges when your buddy charges means you can close when it isn't your turn. A wearing a glove of storing for the free action sheathe trick I outlined a few posts back would allow TWF rangers to 2hand thier main weapon on the charge. Probably a must have feat for cavaliers, and decent for others...
I realised awhile ago that the biggest weakness of a TWF build is that moving sucks. An attack at the end of a move is a 1-handed attack normally (since the other hand has your offhand blade)
Having a glove of storing solves this, provided your offhand weapon is light. Say you've got a scimitar/kukri. Walk around with scimitar on your belt and kukri inside the glove. Combat starts.
Now, you can charge to close, wielding your scimitar 2handed for better damage, just like a dedicated 2hander would. Now when your turn comes around to full attack, free action draw your kukri from the glove and TWF full attack. Once the attack is complete, sheathe the kukri again in the glove. You can now take any AOO's or subsequent moves 2handed. Repeat the sheathe trick whenever you can full attack.
Fighting this way means you always take your full attack by TWF (outdamaging a two hander)
and Take AOO's and Move+Attacks 2 handed (as opposed to 1handed, it means a dedicated 2hander doesn't get a damage advantage on moves or AOO's, except for base weapon damage, since you'll be wielding a one handed weapon and he'll probably have a Falchion or Greatsword).
Well that was simply the style at the time. If you want long winded read some Jules Verne. The man was as much a biologist as he was a writer adn he loved tot alk about inane facts or speculation about animals people were finding washed up on the beach.Yes... the tastes now of are of a generation that is looking to write it's term papers in textspeak. (No joke, some schools are even thinking of allowing this). The fast paced world of today has resulted in the massive shrinkage of attention spans.
That is a pretty big generalization.
I am 25, have a bachelor in political science and a master of public administration. I read stuff like Machiavelli's "The Prince" for pleasure but can barely tolerate Tolkien.
I have forced myself to read "The Hobbit", "The Fellowship of the Ring", "The Two Towers" but have failed midway to read "The Return of the King" and "The Silmarillion".
Tolkien is just not for everyone's tastes. I only enjoyed reading "The Hobbit", everything else feels like a long-winded history text book for a make believe place.
Well that was simply the style at the time. If you want long winded read some Jules Verne. The man was as much a biologist as he was a writer adn he loved tot alk about inane facts or speculation about animals people were finding washed up on the beach.Yes... the tastes now of are of a generation that is looking to write it's term papers in textspeak. (No joke, some schools are even thinking of allowing this). The fast paced world of today has resulted in the massive shrinkage of attention spans.That is a pretty big generalization.
I am 25, have a bachelor in political science and a master of public administration. I read stuff like Machiavelli's "The Prince" for pleasure but can barely tolerate Tolkien.
I have forced myself to read "The Hobbit", "The Fellowship of the Ring", "The Two Towers" but have failed midway to read "The Return of the King" and "The Silmarillion".
Tolkien is just not for everyone's tastes. I only enjoyed reading "The Hobbit", everything else feels like a long-winded history text book for a make believe place.
+1.
The reason I love Salvatore,Weis and Hickman, Gemmel is they tend to write fast paced action books, which I prefer.
Use spells like Stone Call to hamper your enemy's movement.
Shoot-n-scoot: Use your improved mobility with Longstrider and Slipstream
Manyshot is good when moving a shooting.
Rangers get Woodland Stride, use it to out maneuver your opponent.
Don't let them get full attacks on you...its better to take the AoO than take a full round of attacks from them - you are not a tank with the Switch-hitter build.
yEasiest way to deal with an ettin is to ride your wolf to keep away, while you shoot it from the saddle (you can ranged full attack without feats but at a penalty- reduced via mounted archery feat)
Or start from ranged- full attack, wolf buddy attempts a trip. If Ettin tripped he has to use a move action to get up, provoking from wolf. Ettin closes (move) and attacks you (standard) and Next round you Quickdraw your sword and full attack, wolf attempts another trip.
Or
Start from ranged- full attack, wolf attempts a trip. Ettin attacks wolf buddy and doesn't close with you. You ranged full attack again. Wolf yelps and moves away. Ettin can either case the wolf or close with you. either way, you get another full attack and he dies.
Hello Treantmonk. Any plans on updating your ranger (or Bard) guide?
What your thoughts on the Archetypes. Me I like the Guide and Infiltrator very much. I know it will take some time until you have all Ranger’s Focus you need per day, but still. And Inspired Moment is very nice?
It would be nice to hear your thoughts.
@Talmor
As a player of Kingmaker (finished the AP except the final battle), i will try to help you.
First i have some questions about you:
1) By epic point buy i understand that you mean 25 point buy?
2) There are no traits in the core book, i suspect that you mean APG for traits?
3) What PF books are you allowed to use and have access (spells, feats etc.)?
4) The low magic will hurt badly but as soon as you begin building your kingdom that should disappear unless the DM plans on some really heavy house rules.
Suggestion to your DM, ban crafting feats except maybe scribe scroll they can really ruin the game because of the nature of Kingmaker.
The GM is going with a "gods are heavily and personally involved" take on the system, so we're both directly tied to our deities--I'm going with Erastil. The blessings of the gods (tied to our roleplaying, sacrifices, and "negotiations" with the gods) will be the source of most of our weapon and armor bonuses, as well as any miscellaneous "buffs" they see fit to grant us on a case by case basis.
I actually rather like this approach. I worked ona supplement that was released recently which talked about solving the equipment spiral with a similar method.
My thoughts.
Favored Enemy Human at first, eventually you'll want magical beast and fey. Forests and Plains for favored terrains.
A paladin anda ranger can get quite a bit of distance with magic so don't worry too much you're playing two of the most dangerous classes in the game. As long as it's balanced for two characters you should be fine.
@Talmor
Ask your GM if he will deny you access to the APG spell instant enemy.
The lack of this spell will really change how you allocate your favorite enemies and will power you down significaly.
The GM is going with a "gods are heavily and personally involved" take on the system, so we're both directly tied to our deities--I'm going with Erastil. The blessings of the gods (tied to our roleplaying, sacrifices, and "negotiations" with the gods) will be the source of most of our weapon and armor bonuses, as well as any miscellaneous "buffs" they see fit to grant us on a case by case basis.
I actually rather like this approach. I worked ona supplement that was released recently which talked about solving the equipment spiral with a similar method.
My thoughts.
Favored Enemy Human at first, eventually you'll want magical beast and fey. Forests and Plains for favored terrains.
A paladin anda ranger can get quite a bit of distance with magic so don't worry too much you're playing two of the most dangerous classes in the game. As long as it's balanced for two characters you should be fine.
Yes human as the first is the best for the first choice.
Why do you think that Plains is a good favored terrain choice?I remember only a handful of battles during the whole AP on plains.
Remember that hills is part of the mountains terrain.
I am patiently awaiting lord Treantmonk to update this guide to include APG/UM/UC.....
I am patiently awaiting lord Treantmonk to update this guide to include APG/UM/UC.....
You and me both.....
But i don't think that there are a lot of things to say, instant enemy is your best fried, archers got a new toy called point blank master, those who want to play with crossbows should use the archery combat style, maybe worth it for a switch hitter to use dazing assault in place of the critical feats, if you find room put furious focus somewhere, wild stalker might be a good alternative when he gets a capstone.
However i thought (actually one from my group did) of a very good multiclass option for a melee character making use of the UC feat shapeshifting hunter, taking the first level as ranger, 6 druid levels (lion or saurian shaman) and the rest ranger levels, might result in a pretty good melee combatant.
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I've seized the moment in the past two days and written my own Archery Guide for Rangers, which is up to date but focuses only on archery. It's not as complete as Treantmonk, but then again we're dealing with a lot more material now. I hope it does some justice. If the folks who check this thread like it, I will make a new thread for it.
Read your guide. Nice.
Good catch on stacking Bane weapon with Instant Enemy (I usually go +8vs Evil outsiders)
You advice on building a sick archer is mostly good. I'd point out that Clustered Shot is kinda a must have in the later levels.
Adding the section on riding a mount was a great idea.
The wording on getting a full set of actions always confused me as to why you could Full attack ranged but not full attack melee.
Nice job.
Read your guide. Nice.
Good catch on stacking Bane weapon with Instant Enemy (I usually go +8vs Evil outsiders)
You advice on building a sick archer is mostly good. I'd point out that Clustered Shot is kinda a must have in the later levels.
Adding the section on riding a mount was a great idea.
The wording on getting a full set of actions always confused me as to why you could Full attack ranged but not full attack melee.
Nice job.
Also The DPR difference on a +8Instant FE to using Bane as well could be overkill. That many hits on a +8 foe could be sufficient.
It may be better to have Human as a +2 or +4 enemy and use Human Bane on it. Making such a ridiculously common foe into +4 or +6 with 2d6 extra damage could make you awesome in alot MOREfights.
I've seized the moment in the past two days and written my own Archery Guide for Rangers, which is up to date but focuses only on archery. It's not as complete as Treantmonk, but then again we're dealing with a lot more material now. I hope it does some justice. If the folks who check this thread like it, I will make a new thread for it.
Nice guide. I'll have to examine it in a little more depth. Currently playing an 11th level ranger that is doing the Switch Hitter from Treantmonk's guide and running around with a horse as his animal companion. Reason being is his island of origin are horsebreeders, so obvious choice.
Couple of quick notes. All the horse's feats you list, as far as I can tell all require Power Attack as a pre-req and you don't list that on your document.
I know you are just using core rule books, but from a third party feat perspective, I'm using Greater Deadly Accuracy from Super Genius Games Guide to Feats of Battle. Allows you to reroll 1's and 2's.
Greater Deadly Accuracy.
But definitely thanks for the additional guidebook.
Thank you for the feedback, I'll update the guide tomorrow when I get some time and definitely add power attack. Not sure why it fell off.
As far as adding humans, I've found that they account for tons of fodder but are often also the BBEG, thus I would probably recommend they are your main FE or nothing at all, because you don't want to run into the instant enemy limiter by having them only as the +2 FE.
I have to be honest with you, this ranger simply destroys the AP encounters I've been involved in, even those beefed up to stack the deck on me. Adding another bonus to hit the fodder is really kind of moot.
Obviously, some APs are very much human oriented, so I will add them as a premier FE selection in those cases, but I kind of feel I covered it when I wrote about talking to your DM and researching the campaign area.
The part where you said the +8 to hit and all that damage could be overkill is absolutely spot on. It's kind of encounter breaking, on the bright side it's a more effective cure for ED than modern medication.
EDIT: Clustered shot is going to replace favored defense or the later manyshot option, I had it in there but it was mistakenly taken as an archery feat at level 14.
hThe problem with Not taking human at all is you stop yourself from owning in a lot of encounters.
Also Instant Enemy is Great But you don't get it till around lvl 10. Pearls of Power 3 are very expensive.
So I typically go human +4 (with Human bane weapon meaning you own this FE)
then a 2nd FE +2
THEN Evil Outsiders +8 (They are fairly common in most APs across all CR's.
Then 4th and 5th FE's +2
(Not Abberations since they can be powerful.
Giants and Magical Beasts are good candidates since they are biggish racial groups and usually large- Synergies well with Big Game Hunter).
Saying all this Bane is a +1enchantment so carrying a backup bane weapon also works.
The problem with Not taking human at all is you stop yourself from owning in a lot of encounters.
LOL, at no point have I ever been in an encounter where I didn't feel at least a little guilty for all the damage I was cranking out. Nothing is stopping the archer ranger from owning encounters (post level 5) because nothing CAN stop that from happening, fickle winds and DM willpower aside of course :-)
Also Instant Enemy is Great But you don't get it till around lvl 10. Pearls of Power 3 are very expensive.
A Pearl of Power 3 only runs 9k, which is 1,000 more then a backup +1 bane weapon. Not saying the pearl is better, just saying the price is comparable.
Also instant enemy is close range, which is a bummer for some ranged encounters.
Also Instant Enemy is Great But you don't get it till around lvl 10. Pearls of Power 3 are very expensive.
A Pearl of Power 3 only runs 9k, which is 1,000 more then a backup +1 bane weapon. Not saying the pearl is better, just saying the price is comparable.
Also instant enemy is close range, which is a bummer for some ranged encounters.
A lesser rod of reach or metamagic gems can help you with that.
Also Instant Enemy is Great But you don't get it till around lvl 10. Pearls of Power 3 are very expensive.
A Pearl of Power 3 only runs 9k, which is 1,000 more then a backup +1 bane weapon. Not saying the pearl is better, just saying the price is comparable.
Also instant enemy is close range, which is a bummer for some ranged encounters.
Youre Right, which you pick is up to you. I'd rather keep the pearls so I can have it ready for the BBEG NON-FE that just appeared.
Just me, but my rangers usually have wands of their 3rd lvl utility spells. All slots go to Instant Enemy and if I can afford a pearl, I have one or two.
But since humans are so commonThat Human Bane goes on My Main weapon.
That means I fight
Humans+4FE (+6with bane, +2d6damage)
Undead +2
Evil Outsiders+8
Magical Beasts +2
Giants +2
(My Rangers usually take Big Game Hunter as well since nearly everything in the Beastiary above CR 9 is large or bigger)
FE Goes on anything tough not falling into these groups (Dragons, Abberations etc)
Excellent guide Lastoth, thanks!
Well, thanks to Treantmonk for the original guide too, of course!
I've been playing a very similar ranger, here are some consideration.
Mount: I hate mounts but that's personal. I'm impressed by your take on the matter, very impressed: that said there are probably some people who dislike mounts even if they work so well. For those, I'd recommend the slippers of spider climbing: they often allow you to get out of reach and on a elevated position (the +1 to to hit is always welcome) and later on, if needed, the cloak of the arachnid. And, most important, shooting arrows while hanging from the ceiling it's pretty darn cool.
Archetype: I've begun to play before instant enemy became available, so I took up the guide archetype. Its version of favored enemy remains very competitive even at higher levels, you just can't stack bane (but I'd be very careful to do that anyway, my GM would surely discover to have throw anything on his feat list...). That said, at lower level the guide is fantastic: if you don't go mounted you won't miss your animal companion and I'm not that big of a fan of evasion. The ability to choose to be effective against every BBEG right from level 1 is spectacular.
Feats: clustered shot is certainly worth considering, I'm considering to take a couple of levels of fighter just to speed up the snap shot line and get clustered shot too.
manyshot is one of the best feat ever. For me is a must at level 7. Just a pity that it works only with full attacks.
Magic items: celestial armor is a must, I'd say. Fly is just the icing on the cake.
rod of extend for blood hound (lesser) and terrain bond (normal) could be good choices.
Skills: swim and climb (and ride, if you are not mounted) could be overrated. I feel a couple of ranks are more than enough in most campaign and at higher level they will be useless anyway. I'd rather have acrobatics, knowledge nature and sense motive (high wis + max rank + ioun stone with alertness make you quite competent at it).
Well, that's all, congratulations again for the very good guide (even if it could be useful to analyze a few more archetype for those who might be intrigued).
Interesting, I hadn't caught that. Updated to reflect this information, and archer rangers STILL command the respect they didn't get in high school.
I'd recommend clustered shots over favored defense if that's a concern, but honestly DR10/- isn't really putting too much of a dent into your damage at high levels anyway. I also seem to always have two vital things with me: a party member who can identify the DR type and a wide selection of arrows, so it's far more often that I need the AC than the counter for the DR.
I just noticed we had some discussion in here relevant to my guide, thanks for the comments but I think I should probably start my own thread so as to keep treantmonks thread clean.
Thanks again to Treantmonk for paving the way on great ranger advice.
Ok, I have a question about the Full Plate. Doesn't that disable ranger abilities? Because he has to be wearing light or medium armor and full plate is considered heavy armor. If this was already covered please feel free to quote it, didn't comb all 9 pages yet.
Thanks a bunch
mithril full plate is medium armor due to the properties of mithril.
One thing I noticed about the guide, is that it is recommended to get a breastplate, greatsword, and composite longbow at level one. I don't see how a level one character can pay for a breastplate (200 gp) let alone everything else. This is especially important in PFS play, where everyone, regardless of class, starts with 150 gp.
Kikko armor ( 5 AC, 4 DEX, -3 check, 20% ASF, 25 lbs, 30 gp) is a good, cheap alternative, as is Four Mirror Armor (45 gp) if you have a lower DEX, as recommended in the guide. Both can be found in Ultimate Combat.
Other than that small nitpick, its a great guide that I have used and pointed out to others many times.
Some people say that Point Blank Master and the Snap Shot feat line cause the switch hitter to be obsolete.
Don't be fooled, this is far from true. Sometimes you run out of arrows, sometimes theres a windwall, sometimes your bow gets sundered, and switch hitting is actually LESS feat intensive than Point blank Master and Snap Shot line.
One thing I noticed about the guide, is that it is recommended to get a
Some people say that Point Blank Master and the Snap Shot feat line cause the switch hitter to be obsolete.Don't be fooled, this is far from true. Sometimes you run out of arrows, sometimes theres a windwall, sometimes your bow gets sundered, and switch hitting is actually LESS feat intensive than Point blank Master and Snap Shot line.
Snap shot is not relevant in making switch hitting obsolete (unless you really care about threatening your adjacent square). Point blank master is what is obsolete, and that's 2 feat (weapon focus is not worthless either).
Running out of arrows should be very difficult: crafting them is trivial, you can have at least a couple of efficient quivers on you without breaking realism and as many arrows in your backpack as you can carry.
Wind wall is a pain: nothing you can do about it (except dispel magic with use magic device), but you are in a group. Wind wall in itself is not a big deal, you can go around it, fickle winds is what screw you, but your wizard can dispel it.
Sunder: yeah, your bow can get sundered, but your great sword can be sundered too. In the same way that you can have a backup great sword, you can have a backup bow.
One thing I noticed about the guide, is that it is recommended to get a
Some people say that Point Blank Master and the Snap Shot feat line cause the switch hitter to be obsolete.Don't be fooled, this is far from true. Sometimes you run out of arrows, sometimes theres a windwall, sometimes your bow gets sundered, and switch hitting is actually LESS feat intensive than Point blank Master and Snap Shot line.
Snap shot is not relevant in making switch hitting obsolete (unless you really care about threatening your adjacent square). Point blank master is what is obsolete, and that's 2 feat (weapon focus is not worthless either).
Running out of arrows should be very difficult: crafting them is trivial, you can have at least a couple of efficient quivers on you without breaking realism and as many arrows in your backpack as you can carry.
Wind wall is a pain: nothing you can do about it (except dispel magic with use magic device), but you are in a group. Wind wall in itself is not a big deal, you can go around it, fickle winds is what screw you, but your wizard can dispel it.
Sunder: yeah, your bow can get sundered, but your great sword can be sundered too. In the same way that you can have a backup great sword, you can have a backup bow.
Snap Shot IS relevant because it replicates something a melee weapon does; threaten adjacent squares. If you look at any archery guide, they will almost always recommend the Snap Shot line and Point blank Master in conjunction. (look at Lastoth's guide to archery rangers.) Not to mention Point Blank Master won't be online until level 10 in all likelihood, let alone snap shot, whereas a switch hitter is possible and effective from level 1.
Efficiency Quivers are not available until you have money for them, something that is not likely to be possible until mid levels. switch hitters are effective at level 1, regardless of magical equipment or gold funds.
Wind wall IS easily negated by dispel magic, and yes you are in a party. However, how often does your whole party go scouting with you? Self sufficiency is necessary to a certain degree for a character that is expected/committed to recon duty. A switch hitter can get around this without help or magic should it be necessary.
Yes any weapon can be sundered. Last i checked though, a wooden bow was easier to sunder than a metal sword. This will apply to your back up bow, should your enemy make a habit of using such tactics.
Until you get Snap Shot!, you will not get an attempt to make an AoO prior to the sunder attempt, as you would with a melee weapon. This means anyone, regardless of feat choices, can make this a viable strategy against a dedicated archer.
In the end though, a dedicated archer is a very different play-style than a switch hitter. A switch hitter is primarily a melee build, who is still quite competent as an archer.
An archer is an archer, and is not often tough enough to stay in melee range regardless of feat choices.
I'm not saying the archer is inferior to the switch hitter; in fact i would still have colored it blue with 4 (3.5?)stars when the guide was written, regardless of whether the APG, UM, and UC ever came out.
I'm just saying that a switch hitter is NOT obsolete, regardless of what people say.
Premise: I meant to say that before point blank master, switch hitting was stronger overall than archery. Now archery is stronger overall than switch hitting. Switch hitting is no more the most efficient choice, but is still a viable and powerful choice (albeit not as powerful as pure archery).
Also, for an pure archer to use a melee weapon now and then for the first levels is normal, but I wouldn't call that switch hitting.
Snap Shot IS relevant because it replicates something a melee weapon does; threaten adjacent squares. If you look at any archery guide, they will almost always recommend the Snap Shot line and Point blank Master in conjunction. (look at Lastoth's guide to archery rangers.) Not to mention Point Blank Master won't be online until level 10 in all likelihood, let alone snap shot, whereas a switch hitter is possible and effective from level 1.
Lastoth recommend snap shot for different reasons (his idea is to take advantage of AOO). Is the snap shot line nice to have? Sure. Can you live without it? Sure.
Point blank master: true, before level 10 you don't get to shot into melee range. Why are you in melee? Still, if you find yourself threatened, take a 5-foot step and shoot. The enemy has reach? Well, even without blowing feats, you can take out that melee weapon when you can't take your 5ft step and shot. That doesn't mean you have to blow feats on this, since this should not happen in the first place.Efficiency Quivers are not available until you have money for them, something that is not likely to be possible until mid levels. switch hitters are effective at level 1, regardless of magical equipment or gold funds.
Efficient quivers are not NEEDED at level 1. You can carry more than one quiver, even normal ones. You start needing more than what normal quivers can carry at really high levels. I've never felt the need of an efficient quiver until level 9 (actually, I bought one because it was iconic, I still didn't really need it at that point).
Wind wall IS easily negated by dispel magic, and yes you are in a party. However, how often does your whole party go scouting with you? Self sufficiency is necessary to a certain degree for a character that is expected/committed to recon duty. A switch hitter can get around this without help or magic should it be necessary.
If I am a low sill save type of character and, while alone, I run into a wizard who cast wind wall, I run. If I really want to get my mind screwed I can still get on the other side of the wall, both with an archer and a switch hitter.
Yes any weapon can be sundered. Last i checked though, a wooden bow was easier to sunder than a metal sword. This will apply to your back up bow, should your enemy make a habit of using such tactics.
Until you get Snap Shot!, you will not get an attempt to make an AoO prior to the sunder attempt, as you would with a melee weapon. This means anyone, regardless of feat choices, can make this a viable strategy against a dedicated archer.
As a pure archer I noticed I've got the highest CMD of the group. Minions would be hard pressed at sundering my bow (even if they didn't need a weapon with a higher enhancement bonus than mine, which I think they don't anymore). A BBEG bent on sundering my weapon would have improved sunder and would make short work of whatever weapon I may carry, bow, dagger or greatsword.
In the end though, a dedicated archer is a very different play-style than a switch hitter. A switch hitter is primarily a melee build, who is still quite competent as an archer.
An archer is an archer, and is not often tough enough to stay in melee range regardless of feat choices.I'm not saying the archer is inferior to the switch hitter; in fact i would still have colored it blue with 4 (3.5?)stars when the guide was written, regardless of whether the APG, UM, and UC ever came out.
I'm just saying that a switch hitter is NOT obsolete, regardless of what people say.
I was mainly contesting the pov of those that still see switch hitting the only way to make archery work. I actually like the idea of a switch hitter, seems fun to play.
As a primarily melee guy, I'm not totally sure that a ranger has what it takes to pull it off: the damage potential it there, no doubt, I fear it may still be a bit too frail to be a primarily meleer (every other full BAB class gets something more defensive-wise: barbarians get more HP, paladins swift heal and fighters gets armor training and are maybe slighly less mad). This has little to do with what I said above, I'm just voicing my concern and looking for your opinion on the matter (since I've never played one).
EDIT: corrections and clarifications.
Treant,
Thank you for validating the switch-spec. I've actually played that build in one form or another from Advanced D&D, through 3.0-.5 to Pathfinder, finally retiring my venerable ranger at level 18. Admittedly, I didn't follow your exact spec (I took some prestige class levels as part of roleplay...etc) but it's good to see something I thought out long ago become a respected optimization.
Stuff
Well, I think we are in agreement, archery is more powerful. i would put in the caveat that at early levels switch hitting is still superior due to versatility (i.e ability to fill multiple roles at need) and ability to deal slightly higher damage. At higher levels (10+) when the best archery feats are available, yeah, archery is superior. It's ability to overcome DR, still put out competitive damage, and the ability to have more attacks/round definitely gives it the edge.
A switch hitter is meant to be a primarily melee combatant, but by no means is it meant to be the party's primary melee combatant. Its a subtle difference, but a very important one.
A fighter or barbarian will deal more damage, and take more damage than a switch hitter ranger. However, a switch hitter ranger will not be too far behind in either regard. Their true strength is the wide array of tools they bring to combat. The only tool the fighter or barbarian has is to hit harder. Rangers have greater access to skills, a small but good spell selection, the ability to ignore pre-reqs for the combat feats (of which the switch hitter is probably the most efficient example) and the circumstantial ability to match the fighter or barbarian in damage output and combat advantage (via Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain).
The Ranger (regardless of build) is a skirmisher by nature. They excel when they can choose their battles. As a class they are designed to shine when you can plan ahead, use the terrain, and put some thought into your tactical abilities, such as spells, Woodland Stride, Camouflage, and HiPS. Switch Hitting doesn't alter this. It just adds another tool in your toolbox.
Even if you haven't got the time, planning, and circumstance to make things go perfectly for you, a ranger will still perform adequately.
if you look a couple pages back, STR Ranger has a build based on that. However, it runs into problems with damage, and it relies VERY heavily on expensive magic items.
Yep. But the build is primarily a TWR, that uses chakrams (30ft range) rather than a bow whenhe has to do ranged.