Simple question really. Why play a human character other than roleplaying reasons? They get a +2 on a stat, +1 skill point a level and a bonus feat. All the other races get a bucket load of extras with nothing to balance it out.
Old rules only Humans could be Paladins and if memory is right Monks. They had unlimited advancement in any class (which was the *big* bonus in playing a human), heck elves don't even fear death now since the rules on Raise Dead were changed!
Am I the only one who thinks like this?
Simple question really. Why play a human character other than roleplaying reasons? They get a +2 on a stat, +1 skill point a level and a bonus feat. All the other races get a bucket load of extras with nothing to balance it out.
Old rules only Humans could be Paladins and if memory is right Monks. They had unlimited advancement in any class (which was the *big* bonus in playing a human), heck elves don't even fear death now since the rules on Raise Dead were changed!
Am I the only one who thinks like this?
Humans are really pretty sweet from a versatility standpoint. You can create just about any starting package you like with a +2 to any ability and a feat that you like, I think for those reasons most of the characters in groups I run or play with have a majority of humans. It was that way even before PF gave them a +2 to an ability score as well, the added feat selection is the big bonus from what I can tell.
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Honestly, the majority of characters I've played and seen played were human. The draw of something familiar is pretty strong. And even if the bonus feat isn't as attractive thanks to everyone getting more feats, it is still a good idea for a feat-intensive character. So I don't think they're any worse off than before. I'd say that it's become a harder choice now that everyone gets something attractive and the bonus feat and skill points aren't the be all end all.
I'll caveat that I almost never play humans, but that's because I play to escape reality. So I prefer playing something else besides a human. Last few characters were a Catfolk Acrobat, and before that a Half-Orc fighter, and before that an elf barbarian, and before that a catfolk scout, and before that a half-drow favored soul, and before that a halfling cleric, ah you get the idea.
However, that decision was never based off whether or not the human was not balanced, just my preference to escape humanity. I think the human is very balanced, and is quite often the best choice if what you are doing is skill intensive or feat intensive at early levels.
Plus, you really should play what fits your desires of a character, and if that character is best represented by a human, run a human. If it's best represented by a one-armed kobold, run a one-armed kobold.
I'll caveat that I almost never play humans, but that's because I play to escape reality. So I prefer playing something else besides a human. Last few characters were a Catfolk Acrobat, and before that a Half-Orc fighter, and before that an elf barbarian, and before that a catfolk scout, and before that a half-drow favored soul, and before that a halfling cleric, ah you get the idea.
However, that decision was never based off whether or not the human was not balanced, just my preference to escape humanity. I think the human is very balanced, and is quite often the best choice if what you are doing is skill intensive or feat intensive at early levels.
Plus, you really should play what fits your desires of a character, and if that character is best represented by a human, run a human. If it's best represented by a one-armed kobold, run a one-armed kobold.
I really understand were you are coming from. However it does seem like why play a human rogue when a halfling does it better, why play a human wizard when a elf does it better, why play a fighter or cleric when a dwarf or half-orc can do it?
It seems that old school humans had a niche that they could fill because of class/level restrictions but since that has been removed they don't seem special.By the way I play almost exclusivly humans. In 30 odd years I have played one each of gnome, halfling and half-orc.
Note that the only race with a Str bonus is humans (or half-humans), and the only races with an Int bonus are (half-)humans and elves, and the only races with a Wis bonus are (half-)humans and dwarves. So in my PFRPG games I see lots of human fighters and quite a few human clerics and wizards.
why play a human wizard when a elf does it better, why play a fighter or cleric when a dwarf or half-orc can do it?
It's probably a toss-up between a human wizard and an elf wizard (one feat in exchange for +2 to spell penetration and enchantment saves, low-light vision, and some other stuff). Likewise for a human cleric and a dwarf cleric (one feat in exchange for darkvision, +2 to magic saves, and some other stuff).
Half-orc vs. human fighter is no contest in my book, but YMMV.
Simple question really. Why play a human character other than roleplaying reasons? They get a +2 on a stat, +1 skill point a level and a bonus feat. All the other races get a bucket load of extras with nothing to balance it out.
Old rules only Humans could be Paladins and if memory is right Monks. They had unlimited advancement in any class (which was the *big* bonus in playing a human), heck elves don't even fear death now since the rules on Raise Dead were changed!
Am I the only one who thinks like this?
Weird. I see it exactly the other way around. To me, nothing the other races get is worth the feat the human gets. I'd need a pretty good reason to play anything other than human, and if so, I would probably really miss that feat. :)
I really understand were you are coming from. However it does seem like why play a human rogue when a halfling does it better, why play a human wizard when a elf does it better, why play a fighter or cleric when a dwarf or half-orc can do it?
It seems that old school humans had a niche that they could fill because of class/level restrictions but since that has been removed they don't seem special.
By the way I play almost exclusivly humans. In 30 odd years I have played one each of gnome, halfling and half-orc.
I'll agree as the game has progressed, humans have come down from being the penultimate race they were originally.
I just think that's a good thing. I don't think you should be penalized for not playing a human. The current balance is nice because you can play a human and get bonuses that you don't get in other races. In nearly every choice above, a human has advantages.
Elves get +2 Dex, +2Int, -2 Con. So an elf wizard has a built in lower hit point total than the same character as a human. The human will also get +1 HP and +1 SP per level (or two SP) where the elf will only get one or the other. That's a big thing over 10 levels. The human is giving up one AC (assuming he put his +2 in Int) in exchange for more skill points and better hitpoints than the elven wizard. He's also picking up an extra feat the elf doesn't have. In exchange, he's giving up find secret doors and low-light. I'd say those are equally balanced in my book.
You can make the same argument for a halfling rogue vs a human rogue. The Half-Orc and Half-Elf are basically just humans now, with switched out secondary racial characteristics, so those are a wash.
I guess that while there is no reason to play a human exclusively over another race, there is no reason not to either. The races are a lot more balanced, and humans (and half-humans) are the only races that are uniquely suited to being ANY and EVERY class, while the other races are either good at a class or bad at it.
I really understand were you are coming from. However it does seem like why play a human rogue when a halfling does it better,
If you like to have a more strength and power based rogue humans do it better than a halfling.
why play a human wizard when a elf does it better,
Human wizards can have superior fortitude and hp compared to elves
why play a fighter or cleric when a dwarf or half-orc can do it?Humans do not have reduced speed and have additonal skill ranks to balance out poor class skills.
It seems that old school humans had a niche that they could fill because of class/level restrictions but since that has been removed they don't seem special.
By the way I play almost exclusivly humans. In 30 odd years I have played one each of gnome, halfling and half-orc.
As already stated Humans are very flexible their additional feat and skill ranks are invaluable to most characters and most builds.
What is more important hHumans have no weaknesses.Finaly and probably the crux of the matter is that most campaigns are based in humanocentric lands. That means that humans have the easiest time fitting in and avoiding attantion and discrimination. Most magical and mundane treasure found will be fitted for humans as well.
Humans are cool, versatile and generaly free from bias.
Build a sorcerer with any race vs human. Human wins, hands down. +2 CHA, +1 SP (or 2 if you use the FC bonus for it), and a bonus feat.
Hm? I would say that a gnome or halfling sorcerer would be at least as good as a human (unless your sorcerer really cares about Str). For a gnome (for instance), I think +2 Con, +1 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, low-light vision, bonus to save vs. illusion, some SLAs and some other stuff is worth a feat and 10' of movement.
I think the +1 skill point per level is a bit overrated (unless you're trying to qualify for a particular prestige class, maybe), but I know lots of players are skill junkies; for them, humans are perfect. :-)
Woah I was shocked at the Elf Wizard vs Human Wizard thing. Con is the second most important stat for a Wizard. Humans/Half Orcs/Half Elves make much better wizards than elves. I would go as far as to say even Dwarves and Gnomes make better wizards than elves. Since you're going to want at least 14 Con, but preferrably more.
I think the +1 skill point per level is a bit overrated (unless you're trying to qualify for a particular prestige class, maybe), but I know lots of players are skill junkies; for them, humans are perfect. :-)
I think it comes down to the DM as well. My games are pretty skill-critical. If the PCs don't make the necessary skill checks, it's gonna cost them. They can still succeed in the end, usually, but missing a critical magic item because no one makes a perception check, or not being able to open a critical lock to save an important NPC, those situations don't turn out well without a skilled PC.
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Small size comes with advantages too.
Halfling sorcerer with 18 dex gets a +5 on ranged touch attacks( with an 18 cha ), also +1 to saves, +2 vs fear, +2 climb, perception, acrobatics, +4 stealth, -1 cmb, -10 move.
Human Sorcerer 18 cha gets a +3, 1 more sp and 1 feat.
I guess it just matters what you are going for. the halfling sorcerer has a quite a few benefits. You've got a +9 to stealth at first level assuming there aren't any traits that give you stealth as a class skill. And a + to perception is always useful.
Is it worth the sacrifice of 2 points of str, a feat, a sp and the size penalties? Depends on your character concept.
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Woah I was shocked at the Elf Wizard vs Human Wizard thing. Con is the second most important stat for a Wizard. Humans/Half Orcs/Half Elves make much better wizards than elves. I would go as far as to say even Dwarves and Gnomes make better wizards than elves. Since you're going to want at least 14 Con, but preferrably more.
Depends on what you are doing. If you are able to hide behind the fighter or use battlefield control spells, you can somewhat control when you get hit. And if a dire lion is munching on the wizard, 2 extra hp per level isn't going to make him survive.
Woah I was shocked at the Elf Wizard vs Human Wizard thing. Con is the second most important stat for a Wizard. Humans/Half Orcs/Half Elves make much better wizards than elves. I would go as far as to say even Dwarves and Gnomes make better wizards than elves. Since you're going to want at least 14 Con, but preferrably more.
I'd disagree with that for the most part, I find dexterity better than constitution in general, better to not get hit at all.
I houseruled that humans get the 2 favored classes ability that half-elves do (mostly because they had the comparable ability in 3.0/3.5 and it seemed weird that they didn't)...and no one in my party is playing one (although they don't plan on multiclassing either). I allow a lot of non-core races, though. There are two half-drow, an avariel, a goliath, and an aasimar. And honestly, one of the big reasons they stayed away from humans is the lack of darkvision or lowlight vision. I'm playing with an app called Maptool that includes vision range modeling and the halfdrow that burned a (free at 1st level in my campaign as an alternative to 2 traits) regional feat to have 120' darkvision is constantly having to warn others about enemy positions they can't see because it's too dark. Only the avariel opted to even buy torches, since he only has low-light vision and can't afford magical illumination yet.
It's been an interesting dynamic, since I've never played in/run a game where lighting conditions were this heavily enforced...but darkvision always seemed really powerful to me. And I want the player's choice of race/class to seem meaningful.
Woah I was shocked at the Elf Wizard vs Human Wizard thing. Con is the second most important stat for a Wizard. Humans/Half Orcs/Half Elves make much better wizards than elves. I would go as far as to say even Dwarves and Gnomes make better wizards than elves. Since you're going to want at least 14 Con, but preferrably more.Depends on what you are doing. If you are able to hide behind the fighter or use battlefield control spells, you can somewhat control when you get hit. And if a dire lion is munching on the wizard, 2 extra hp per level isn't going to make him survive.
Thats exactly what I'm doing. Wizards have bad HP already and you can't always hide behind people. You will get hit eventually. 2HP per level is HUGE. It might not let you solo a dire lion, but at least you wont die instantly. Dex for wizards is way over rated. It's great to have if you have a lot of points to buy stats, but if you only have 15 Point buy it should be more or less the same as CON.
The AC bonus from the Dex is negligible. And unless you play a blaster, the majority of your spells wont need touch attacks anyway (Battlefield control spells especially)
Since 3.0, and definitely 3.5, I have rarely played anything except Humans. They are the obvious choice. In a game that is dominated by Skill Points and Feats you have a race that gets extra of both. The other races were very good for niche things or RP purposes and there was nothing at all wrong with them, but Humans had a major advantage.
Now with many races having two +2 stats the choice of what race to play has gotten quite difficult again. Some base races are the equivalent of what would have been a +1 LA race in 3.5; I do think that Half-Orc and Human are far less attractive options in PF at a first glance.
Really the only thing that a Human has going for him in PF is RP and one extra Feat. The extra skill point is a mute point when an Elf gets +2 Int which would give him the same +1 skill point in addition to your basic stats. Now elves also get all their racial abilities and +2 to Dex as well (albeit with -2 Con). Elves seem to completely overshadow Humans in PF. The difference is a Human has an extra feat at lvl 1 while the Elf has all its racial abilities and an extra +2 stat.
I think the Human is still a good choice given that extra feat at lvl 1. It is still a largely feat driven game so that can be a major advantage. BUT . . . It would be nice to see them get some extra stuff since most of the other races got a major overhaul. Maybe 2 additional skill points each lvl or some minor improvement like that. They did get the floating +2 to any stat at creation, and that is awesome, but they still seem just a little light IMO. They definitely aren’t the obvious choice that they were in 3.5 games. Then again, maybe it's a good thing that there aren't any [i]obvious choice[/b] PC races right now. If it's a hard choice then it's probably better balanced.
EDIT: Not that I am complaining. That floating +2 will be a good addition to my converted Human characters.
I think the +1 skill point per level is a bit overrated (unless you're trying to qualify for a particular prestige class, maybe), but I know lots of players are skill junkies; for them, humans are perfect. :-)I think it comes down to the DM as well. My games are pretty skill-critical. If the PCs don't make the necessary skill checks, it's gonna cost them. They can still succeed in the end, usually, but missing a critical magic item because no one makes a perception check, or not being able to open a critical lock to save an important NPC, those situations don't turn out well without a skilled PC.
Even so, I think the difference between having five extra skill points at level 5 and having zero extra skill points at level 5 is smaller than most people think.
Even so, I think the difference between having five extra skill points at level 5 and having zero extra skill points at level 5 is smaller than most people think.I think the +1 skill point per level is a bit overrated (unless you're trying to qualify for a particular prestige class, maybe), but I know lots of players are skill junkies; for them, humans are perfect. :-)I think it comes down to the DM as well. My games are pretty skill-critical. If the PCs don't make the necessary skill checks, it's gonna cost them. They can still succeed in the end, usually, but missing a critical magic item because no one makes a perception check, or not being able to open a critical lock to save an important NPC, those situations don't turn out well without a skilled PC.
True, but I suppose it depends on the class. A fighter with 6 Int will benefit much more than a rogue with high INT.
Humans are useful when you want to make a character that breaks the convention of their class in some way - the extra skill points and bonus feat allows you to more easily take classes in interesting directions.
Humans are useful when you want to make a character that breaks the convention of their class in some way - the extra skill points and bonus feat allows you to more easily take classes in interesting directions.
Good point.
Expanding on that, humans are usually the best race to use if you want to get into prestige classes. The extra skill points and feat really make it a lot easier to qualify for those prestige classes.
And, they are also easier to multiclass, with no penalty to one of their stats, it's easier to manipulate your points/rolls to get the two or more 'good' stats you need for both classes.
Humans are useful when you want to make a character that breaks the convention of their class in some way - the extra skill points and bonus feat allows you to more easily take classes in interesting directions.Good point.
Expanding on that, humans are usually the best race to use if you want to get into prestige classes. The extra skill points and feat really make it a lot easier to qualify for those prestige classes.
And, they are also easier to multiclass, with no penalty to one of their stats, it's easier to manipulate your points/rolls to get the two or more 'good' stats you need for both classes.
Which, if you think about it, goes perfectly hand-in-hand with the "standard" human tropes of versatile and ambitious. The ease of multiclassing enhances versatility, and the ease of prestige classing reflects ambition.
I'd disagree with that for the most part, I find dexterity better than constitution in general, better to not get hit at all.Um, yeah, except everything has better to-hits than your AC, almost all the time, and their to hits get better with level, while AC remains largely static for levels...
Better to SURVIVE getting hit, because if you are in range, you will eventually get hit, and a few more hp could well be worth a 5K gp diamond.
Still disagree. Dex influences far more than just AC, which in itself is a very large bonus, it also increases reflex saves, your ranged attacks so that more of your spells land, and the big important one, Initiative. Give me a higher initiative over extra HP almost any day. Higher initiative gives me time to prepare a defense, escape, ready a spell, or blow the crap out of my enemy depending on need and they play on my terms rather than having to play on theirs. The d4 to d6 change from 3.5 to PF doubled the HP's of my mage without any change at all to his constitution, that helped far more than a +2 to his constitution score would have.
In the end we probably just agree to disagree. :)
I'd disagree with that for the most part, I find dexterity better than constitution in general, better to not get hit at all.Um, yeah, except everything has better to-hits than your AC, almost all the time, and their to hits get better with level, while AC remains largely static for levels...
Better to SURVIVE getting hit, because if you are in range, you will eventually get hit, and a few more hp could well be worth a 5K gp diamond.
Better to let them hit you and then cackle gleefully because they hit the wrong you as you're really right behind them.. hurts the pride more :)
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I agree with the many posters who have noted that it's situationally dependent and that humans are competitive with the other races. It all depends on your character concept. When I wanted to make a ranger, a scout-type character concept with Perception out the wazoo who could serve as a walking radar, I had started with a human. When I realized I was going to spend a feat on Skill Focus: Perception, I went with a half-elf since I could get that, racial skill bonuses to Perception, and low-light vision, too. In doing so I gave up the bonus SP which I sure could have found a use for, but ultimately I was satisfied with my cracked-out Perception.
Still disagree. Dex influences far more than just AC, which in itself is a very large bonus, it also increases reflex saves, your ranged attacks so that more of your spells land, and the big important one, Initiative. Give me a higher initiative over extra HP almost any day. Higher initiative gives me time to prepare a defense, escape, ready a spell, or blow the crap out of my enemy depending on need and they play on my terms rather than having to play on theirs. The d4 to d6 change from 3.5 to PF doubled the HP's of my mage without any change at all to his constitution, that helped far more than a +2 to his constitution score would have.
I'm with you. DEX is a great stat for wizards, of course I'm an initiative whore. Going first is king in my book, add the rest and it's a shoe in secondary stat for nearly any class.
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Simple question really. Why play a human character other than roleplaying reasons? They get a +2 on a stat, +1 skill point a level and a bonus feat. All the other races get a bucket load of extras with nothing to balance it out.
I think the free Feat for playing a Human is a big deal, personally. And lacking drawbacks is always nice.
That said, if I was ever going to build a character with Skill Focus at start, I'd play a Half-Elf instead. :)
Some very intersting points have been put forward and somethings I have just been missing (probably due to my biased view point). I agree a floating +2 to a stat is good I was really please to see that but got disapointed when all races got an effective +2 to a stat albiet not floating. With the changes in the number of feats gained anyway from 3.5 the bonus feat seems diluted to me. Also the changes in the way skills are handled (again I do approve of this change) that extra skill point has been diluted as all races get it with their favoured class.
I come from a background where humans were special (ie they could enter certain classes where others couldn't) and the game has diluted this IMO for the sake of balance. Elves seem "king of the races" to me and I would really question that. Why would anyone (except me!) play a human wizard when an elf can do it soooo much better?
This again, really? People play humans as they like to, it's familial and such, also the extra feat and skill point are killer
Weird. I see it exactly the other way around. To me, nothing the other races get is worth the feat the human gets. I'd need a pretty good reason to play anything other than human, and if so, I would probably really miss that feat. :)
I'm with you chief. I actually don't like playing other races, not only because I'm a D&D racist, but the humans always seem better to me because I don't like having a (-) to any of my stats. The half-elf actually looks good in Pathfinder, but the other races IMHO have a bunch of extra abilities that don't really come into play (well at least in my many years of gaming).
I haven't ever been put to sleep, been caught without a torch or source of light, failed a poison roll (or failed one where being a dwarf would've saved me- because when I fail a save I really fail!! lol), needed a bonus to illusions, etc.
Penalties to movement speed suck, having low hps can be a killer, and using small weapons is a Grade A no-no. I can see the appeal of other races to various gamers, but i've never been one to stray,
Actually I'm running a half-elf rogue now, but that's besides the point.
Part of it for me with not thinking humans got a rough deal is that single feat puts them a good distance ahead of same class other race characters when it comes to feat trees. Often getting to the higher tiers well before an elf or dwarf would.
And looking at the skill angle, over the course of 20 levels of play that means an extra 20 skill levels to play with. Again, if they focus on a skill, they are going to stay at least on par with any other race and have skill points to spare for complimentary skills or surprise skills. "What do you mean that barbarian picked the lock?"
-Weylin
Barbarian Best Lockpicker There Is! Him Not Take -2 Circumstance Penalty When Him Use Earthbreaker Hammer To Pick Lock! Puny Lock No Match For Krom's Mighty Strengthiness!
Krom Also Subtlest One There Is! When Him Go To Party And Make Innuendo* About Host's Fat Wife Him No Take -2 Circumstance Penalty To Bluff Check! Everybody Believe Krom When Him Hold Earthbreaker Hammer! Earthbreaker Hammer Give +2 Bonus To Everything.
To Answer OP's Question:
Many People Play Puny Human Because Puny Human Gets Bonus Feat! Krom Wish Him Have Cleave 2 Levels Sooner Than Him Did! Power Attack Lame 1st Level Feat, Cleave Useful Against Stinky Goblins!
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