I dunno maybe i'm a total oddball but i so love and adore kobolds! my favorite race, and i own almost every source book i can get my hands on about the little guys. So really saddend me to, see that they didn't get any real buffs in pathfinder. By buffs i just mean brought in line with other races! while i understand they are a monsterous race, and not a big focus...still i'd have liked to see them get there monsterous disability removed.
Kobolds are about same size as gnomes or halflings and yet seem to get much much much worse stats then the latter. Its a pet peeve because i never considered kobolds physical weakness what made them so depraved and " cannon fodder" material. Sure there small but can you really say there weaker then a halfing? physically speaking? mean consider there ancestry, it seems odd that kobolds get such a crazy strength reduction, and con reduction with NO real buffs to compensate. Will say i love some of the bonus class skills that was a great touch! but certainly doesn't make up for the loss they inherently get in other areas.
Love to see there bonuses reworked is all... honestly be changing it for my own campaigns when players want to use them probably to something along the lines of...
+2 dex, +2 int, -2 con
that puts them in line with the other species, i mean when you compare them to goblins...just weird! i'd say kobolds need a second looking at, in my own humble fanboyish opinion!
I dunno maybe i'm a total oddball but i so love and adore kobolds! my favorite race, and i own almost every source book i can get my hands on about the little guys. So really saddend me to, see that they didn't get any real buffs in pathfinder. By buffs i just mean brought in line with other races! while i understand they are a monsterous race, and not a big focus...still i'd have liked to see them get there monsterous disability removed.
Kobolds are about same size as gnomes or halflings and yet seem to get much much much worse stats then the latter. Its a pet peeve because i never considered kobolds physical weakness what made them so depraved and " cannon fodder" material. Sure there small but can you really say there weaker then a halfing? physically speaking? mean consider there ancestry, it seems odd that kobolds get such a crazy strength reduction, and con reduction with NO real buffs to compensate. Will say i love some of the bonus class skills that was a great touch! but certainly doesn't make up for the loss they inherently get in other areas.
Love to see there bonuses reworked is all... honestly be changing it for my own campaigns when players want to use them probably to something along the lines of...
+2 dex, +2 int, -2 con
that puts them in line with the other species, i mean when you compare them to goblins...just weird! i'd say kobolds need a second looking at, in my own humble fanboyish opinion!
I am not a Kobold fan.
But reviewing their entry in the Bestiary, I see your point. They are being being excessivly penalized.
If the designers want to "emphasize" the small size of kobolds, perhaps a -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, & +2 Intellignece might have been better.
This would also be consistent with the way they have emphasized the trapbuilding skills of Kobolds (and general talents with handcrafts) in the Classic Monsters Revisited
Love to see there bonuses reworked is all... honestly be changing it for my own campaigns when players want to use them probably to something along the lines of...
+2 dex, +2 int, -2 con
You gonna drop their speed to 20' so they match gnomes and halflings too? Don't forgot to drop goblins' speed to 20' as well, so we can stop the stereo-type that is small PCs move slower than the small monsters.
You gonna drop their speed to 20' so they match gnomes and halflings too? Don't forgot to drop goblins' speed to 20' as well, so we can stop the stereo-type that is small PCs move slower than the small monsters.Love to see there bonuses reworked is all... honestly be changing it for my own campaigns when players want to use them probably to something along the lines of...
+2 dex, +2 int, -2 con
Actually, Goblins should keep their Move Speed of 30'. It appears to be intended as one of their "racial special abilities"
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I prefer giving dragon-descended 3.X style Kobolds (which I call Wyrmkin, to differentiate them from the dog-men of 1st edition) -2 Str, +2 Dex, and no other stat bonuses or penalties (compensated for by 30 ft. land speed, darkvision and +1 natural armor, over halflings and gnomes).
I then give each of them a 'color package' based off of what type of dragon they are descended from, and a +2 bonus to saves vs. sleep and paralysis;
Black - Acid Resistance 1 / HD. Hold breath for Con x4 rounds. +4 racial bonus to Swim checks.
Blue - Electrical Resistance 1 / HD. 1/2 water requirements, +4 Con checks to avoid nonlethal damage from dehydration. +4 Stealth checks in sandy terrain.
Green - Acid Resistance 1 / HD. Hold breath for Con x4 rounds. +4 racial bonus to Swim checks.
Red - Fire Resistance 1 / HD. +1 damage / die from Cold attacks. +4 Fort saves to avoid nonlethal damage from environmental heat, -4 Fort saves to avoid nonlethal damage from environmental cold.
White - Cold Resistance 1 / HD. Move unpenalized over ice and snow. +4 Acrobatics/balance checks to move over icy surfaces without slipping. +4 Fort checks to avoid nonlethal damage from extreme environmental cold. -4 Fort checks to avoid nonlethal damage from extreme environmental Heat. +1 damage / die from Fire attacks.
While they breed true now, Wyrmkin originate in clusters of 2 to 5 from unfertilized eggs lain every year by female dragons. Some female dragons devour these eggs, rather than deal with another crop of annoying critters. Others let them hatch and enslave these 'children.' Others abandon them to hatch and become free-range nuisances to local humanoid neighbors.
The Kobolds from earlier editions retain the name Kobold, and the same stats (with bonuses to Appraise & Craft skills similar to a Dwarf), but no draconic ties, and are not even a little bit reptilian (although they have animalistic facial features reminiscent of a dog or ape, kinda/sorta). They live underground and like to think that they rival dwarves for craftsmanship, being the primary source of weapons and armor for hobgoblin and orcish groups advanced enough to trade for their goods. The fact that hobgoblins and orcs never seem to have masterwork weapons indicates that they aren't quite as awesome as they think.
In either case, these Kobolds better fit the LA +0 standing of humans, dwarves, etc.
Still, not every race needs to be up to snuff. If someone wants to play a Goblin or a bog-standard unimproved Kobold, I'd be inclined to let them start with some other advantage for being a sub-par race. (Free feat from a preselected list? NPC class level? Faster XP progression? A lucky cache of starting gold? No hard and fast rules to exploit, just some negotiated perk that wouldn't bug the rest of the players.)
I dunno maybe i'm a total oddball but i so love and adore kobolds! my favorite race, and i own almost every source book i can get my hands on about the little guys.
Do you, by chance, have this little number?
Creative Director
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I understand that folks like kobolds... but as with pretty much EVERY MONSTER IN THE BOOK, they're built to be monsters. Not Player Character races. I can't say this enough, it seems.
In the kobold's case, it's meant to be a very fragile and wimpy monster, something that 1st level characters can fight several of at once. That means that in order to fill that niche and requirement, it HAS to be a pushover. That's what being a kobold means, really.
If you want tougher kobolds, fortunately, you can just stack class levels on them until they're wherever you want them to be. And if you want to play a kobold as a PC, well, you might be able to talk your GM into letting you take a bonus feat or something to offset the fact that your baseline racial abilities aren't as good as a core class, I guess... but until we officially do the Kobold Heroes Handbook, there's not really an official "patch" to make kobolds viable PC races. Because that's not what we need them to do in the core game.
If the monsters were designed to be variant player races, then the odd campaign or adventure where the players play monstrous PCs wouldn't be as much fun.
Wow that gives me a great idea for a game. The entire party is kobolds and goblins. The first adventure goal is to try to get 50 chickens!
If the monsters were designed to be variant player races, then the odd campaign or adventure where the players play monstrous PCs wouldn't be as much fun.
If they were designed to be played, then if they were played it wouldn't be much fun. Huh? I guess the standard PC races are an absolute bore to play?
I like playing Kobolds too, but personally I've always seen as their deficiencies and penalties to be challenges to overcome. First level is definitely a struggle, but once you gain a level or two the difference is negligible. Its definitely not for everyone, but if you want a challenge go for it. Personally I never play a gnome or halfling unless its a caster because of the slow movement. Between the small size and reduced damage the penalties are too much.
I DO like the idea of separatating standard kobolds and "wyrmkin" which I might incorporate into my games (and see if the other DM who runs games is kosher with it) and the addition of a bonus feat or NPC class isn't a bad idea either.
I may have to steal that 'wyrmkin' idea as well. Now I need to find my old old Monster Manual.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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My wife tells a story about a game she played in where the PCs were all kobolds. Their goal was to find a human baby and bring it back to their chief for dinner. My favorite part that she tells is when they came across a baptism occurring in a church and concluded that humans couldn't be all bad since they were making baby tea.
Wow alot to reply to...
start by saying no i don't have that book, now i want! also lack the quintessential kobold book from 2e really want that book!
gnomes and halflings have 20 foot movement do to other racials, such as +1 to all saves, and bonus to illusions kobolds lack anything truly game changing like that, hence 10 extra movement speed. Or this is what i've always assumed, will say i do like kobolds gaining stealth and trape making as class skills inherently.
Wyrmkin idea is an awesome idea, may just start using that or a modification there of for my own campaigns in the near future.
Kobold heroes book you say? yes please! ^,^! me love you long time! As to those stats being npc stats, if those are intended for a kobold npc villian i have to say thats just as bad. What kind of evil villian can you possibly create with such low stats? besides something you intend to die instantly! anyway just a small thing i saw i had to mention over all love the bestiary great book! just think when add stats for npcs like that, should be in line with PC stats or greater but never sub-par like kobolds and even goblins are but thats jut my own opinion of course!
P.S. Kobold Heroes book would make my day! please make it happen!
I may be in the minority here, but isn't the brilliance of the kobold precisely that it is underpowered?
They rely on cunning to make up for their shortcomings. They excel at traps not because they have insane trap bonuses, but because DMs often put them in adventures with awesome traps. They use ambushes and superior numbers. They don't have special ambush abilities, but DMs design cool ambush encounters with kobolds in them. They run, they come back, they get you when you sleep.
Adventurers foolishly underestimate the little guys at their peril - it's a tradition!
Plus, they give you a reason to enjoy Cleave or Combat Reflexes.
When you play a kobold, you relish the challenge of playing an underdog. You expect to have it rough. But you'll succeed anyway, because you're that awesome a player dammit.
-Ask
P.S. Bree-Yark!! (Did I get that right? It's been a while. . .)
P.P.S. Those wyrmkin are pretty cool.
I may be in the minority here, but isn't the brilliance of the kobold precisely that it is underpowered?
Indeed. And the point of Pathfinder isn't "just like 3.5, but everyone is 5% tougher" as far as I know.
P.S. Bree-Yark!! (Did I get that right? It's been a while. . .)
You realize that the "BLOOD OF DRAGONS" thing is meant to be ironic, right?
Kobolds are supposed to be scrawny and weak. I would have been quite disappointed if they hadn't been.
Pretty much all that needs to be said.
Good stuffs, +1
I don't really think Kobolds fit into a normal campaign but if I were trying to bring a kobold into the same realm as the PCs I think I would adopt pretty much all of what you suggested.
Giant Kobold
That's... arguably viable. :)
I may be in the minority here, but isn't the brilliance of the kobold precisely that it is underpowered?
Yep, it's also the reason that players like playing them. It's fun to RP the underdog and better when he succeeds.
My wife tells a story ... Their goal was to find a human baby... they came across a baptism occurring in a church and concluded that humans couldn't be all bad since they were making baby tea.
Lol, that's pretty good.
My most recent kobold moments I enjoyed...
I decided to steal a bit of script from Southpark... Orcs = Pigs, Ogre = Man-Bear-Pigs. It worked on a very simple level, which is how I played both kobolds.
BWAHAH
I get it!
"Shafted!"
... cuz they live in mines.
YOU NO TAKE CANDLE!!!
LOL
The funny part is, WoW kobolds bear far more resemblance to AD&D kobolds than the "modern" version.
Also: I think we all know the real winner here is Evil Lincoln.
the final encounter was a big rooster
If I know what you mean! :)
I've allowed my players to play kobolds since 2nd edition. Matter of fact I still have my AD&D Complete Book of Humanoids for that very reason. I've found that the sole motivation for playing a kobold is because they are weak.
Which is why I find it curious that people have the overwhelming desire to 'buff' them up. My solution which has worked for about 10 years now is to simply allow the player to play TWO kobolds.
I've allowed my players to play kobolds since 2nd edition. Matter of fact I still have my AD&D Complete Book of Humanoids for that very reason. I've found that the sole motivation for playing a kobold is because they are weak.
Which is why I find it curious that people have the overwhelming desire to 'buff' them up. My solution which has worked for about 10 years now is to simply allow the player to play TWO kobolds.
So limiting kobolds to only being able to play commoners would increase the level of fun for them? Because being weak is what makes them fun right?
If the kobolds got shafted then there's only one thing left to do. Build a bonfire, and put the shaft on a crank and slow roast them for six hours and serve with assorted veggies. YUM!
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A lot of people like kobolds. Myself and many of my players included. We also agree that they *should* be at least a little underpowered compared to the core races because, as some have said *that's pretty much the entire point of being a kobold*.
However, as they are written in 3.5 and 3.P, their mechanics can make them frustrating to play even when factoring the above in. As such, I usually work with my group to give them some small perk appropriate to the campaign world I'd designed (or, occasionally, the one we're using from a sourcebook) to offset things a little bit. The idea is to generally give them a small bump that makes them more attractive to play, but still keeps them a bit weaker than anyone else.
An example of this is a campaign world I created where kobolds actually *were* a long degenerated, highly diluted offshoots of dragons (dragons in the world had a huge embarrassment complex about this that was fun to play with) and as a result kobold PC's automatically fulfilled the spellcasting requirement of the Dragon Desciple PRC (bonus spellcasting levels granted by the class were simply ignored by players who didn't posess one). The general idea being that a kobold PC (being an exceptional example of his race) discovered connection with his heritage much stronger than other members of his race and began manifesting it physically.
Just some food for thought.
Comparing the 3.5 kobold to the PF kobold, I don't see much difference. A few more possible languages, that is about it. Ok, so no big change right, so no big deal. Except the core race all got boosted, so in effect by the kobold not being boosted as well it has actually been weakened even more than it was before. Before you had to actually spit a lougie to kill them. Now you just need someone who sprays when he talks to kill them.
Don't even try to say that in my games, or you get sprayed with boulders and pisoned crossbow bolts... heavens forbid if they had sorceres or dragon shamans.
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If you want to bring the kobold up to the same power level as a Core race, I have the following suggestions:
1) Add the Draconic Creature template from Draconomicon/RotC
2) Give the PC 4 extra points to invest (only works for a point build character)
3) Give them a free level of warrior.
Although the giant template makes a lot of sense too. :)
I play a kobold with a slightly modified racial profile that I worked out with my DM when Beta was still in playtest. Basically it was:
-4 str
+2 Dex
+2 Cha
+1 Nat arm
+2 perception, trapmaking, miner
light sensitive
darkvision 60
no penalty for picks as improvised weapons
treat bola and net as martial weapons (they don't fight fair)
bloodline variants from Classic Monsters, the common kobold gets skill focus as a bonus feat instead of the neat stuff
... Kobold Heroes Handbook...
Right so when is this coming out? Cause you have to do it now, it has a title and everything.
I played in a game at Origins where all the PCs were kobolds trying to find a new home for their clan. I got to play the Kobold Barbarian with the whopping strength of 14 (18 when raging) and a battle axe.
We massacred a gnome enclave at the end of it. It was brutal. And a lot of fun. I was pretty impressed, overall, with how they played. But I don't really love the race that much.
I did run one game with hoards of kobolds in it - the PCs found themselves trying to get through a kobold warren to a goal. At one point, Kobolds on a bridge over a deep cavernous waterhole were pelting them with arrows, and the melee bruiser charged an unarmed kobold who used his Setting Sun maneuvers from Swordsage to throw the guy over the edge. Hilarity. ^-^
BWAHAH
I get it!
"Shafted!"
... cuz they live in mines.
This is no mine... It's a TOMB!
If the kobolds got shafted then there's only one thing left to do. Build a bonfire, and put the shaft on a crank and slow roast them for six hours and serve with assorted veggies. YUM!
"I have this seven spice sauce that just makes em pop...and scream a little, but it's soooooo good"