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DreamScarred Press seem eager to develop Psionics for Pathfinder. Paizo have also expressed some thoughts regarding their own version of Psionics, but steering away from Spell Point systems and instead favour folding Psionics into the nine-level system familiar to spells.
Whether you care for Psionics or not, you have choices with current and future products:
1) continue using your current 3.5 version(s) of Psionics
2) DreamScarred Press Psionics
3) Paizo Psionics
4) don't like Psionics? then don't use them - no point getting stressed over it
For anyone interested in Psionics, but unable to get their hands on out-of-print WotC products, check out Arcanis: Psionics Unbound. It's a reprinted version of the D20 SRD Psionic rules, tweaked for the Arcanis setting.
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The only way I would ever consider psionics in PathFinder, (or 3e), is if it functioned exactly like magic, or if not, has some serious hinderences. On the other hand, all the talk about flavor could just as easily be added to existing classes rather than make a new form of magic. A psionicly flavored sorcerer bloodline, or clerical philosophy is much cooler to me (opinion) than the Psion or Wilder ever can be. The Psionic Warrior, as a class, is a bit different, but I don't think it would be worth introducing Psionics for that. Rather, it would be better, (again my opinion) to make an alternate Cleric or Paladin build, or something along those lines.
I heard AGP was doing the templar builds of paladin. They wont be exactly the same as the noble paladin, but they'll be relaxed alignment wise and able to work a larger area. Perhaps that could work?
Ok.
So supernatural, how does it interact with current magic? Does it not interact at all, is it simply another type of magic, or somewhere in between?
Does this mean it's effects can not be dispelled by say dispell magic? This is a big question because there are numerous ways to overcome magic built in, but if those same methods do not work on Psionics then how do you intend to make Psionic powers countered by current classes?
The same way it was in the standard 3.5 rules for psionics. What affects magic affects psionics. Anit magic field, dispel magic, spell resistance they all count for psionics too. Psionic Resistance and such counts towards magic. I have no idea where the notion that 3.5 psionics were imune to spell resistance, dispel magic and other anti magic elements came from, it certainly didnt come from the rules. The part where the rules described less transparency between magic and psionics were optional alternative rules, not the standard presented in the rules.
In terms of understanding i would imply a penalty to spell craft checks and knowledge checks for arcane casters to understand psionics and vice versa but not a huge one, probably a -5.
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Ok.
So supernatural, how does it interact with current magic? Does it not interact at all, is it simply another type of magic, or somewhere in between?
Does this mean it's effects can not be dispelled by say dispell magic? This is a big question because there are numerous ways to overcome magic built in, but if those same methods do not work on Psionics then how do you intend to make Psionic powers countered by current classes?
The same way it was in the standard 3.5 rules for psionics. What affects magic affects psionics. Anit magic field, dispel magic, spell resistance they all count for psionics too. Psionic Resistance and such counts towards magic. I have no idea where the notion that 3.5 psionics were imune to spell resistance, dispel magic and other anti magic elements came from, it certainly didnt come from the rules. The part where the rules described less transparency between magic and psionics were optional alternative rules, not the standard presented in the rules.
In terms of understanding i would imply a penalty to spell craft checks and knowledge checks for arcane casters to understand psionics and vice versa but not a huge one, probably a -5.
The problem is, the OP doesn't want it that way. He wants it to not be magical at all, its own separate system that magic cannot effectively fight beyond a spell or two.
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The problem is, the OP doesn't want it that way. He wants it to not be magical at all, its own separate system that magic cannot effectively fight beyond a spell or two.
And that, IMO, is a mistake. The magic/psionic transparency route is the way to go. A Clerics power source is very different than that of a Wizard, and yet the same spell resistance works for both of them.
In the process of adding psionics to the game world, I would rename Spell Resistance 'Power Resistance' and make it apply to spells (arcane and divine) and psionic powers. No other mechanical changes necessary.
I have zero desire to re-write every single monster in the game, to decide which ones do or do not have 'psionic resistance.' If I throw a psionic adversary against the party, they should know that protection from evil will stop a psionically conjured creature just as it would a magically summoned creature, and temporarily block the exercise of telepathic coercion just as it does a vampire's charm.
Fair is fair.
And yeah, the absolute easiest way to work it would be to make a class based off of the Sorcerer or Warlock, using spells from the enchantment and divination schools, with some telekinesis and teleportation and healing thrown in. Call it a 'Mentalist' and be done with it.
(Ooh, a psion-based warlock would rock. Mental blasts at will, and a few other 'tricks' such as Fell Flight and Flee the Scene and Shatter... I like it! Although calling it a Psylock evokes not-unpleasant images of a swimsuit-clad asian ninja assassin...)
The last time I asked James about Psionics, they weren't in the development cycle for 2010 or 2011.
Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Pathfinder Psionics.. because I get that 'offical' and 'canonical' bug sometimes. Happens to the best of us.
But the Dreamscarred lads seem earnest, are doing a proper Open Test, and seem very passionate about their work.
They're also shooting to have a product in the first quarter of 2010. So I'm planning on giving it a chance.
If three years from now, Paizo has their own version, I'll have something to compare. :)
NOTE: All schedules are subject to change, but unless James appears in a puff of smoke to say I'm wrong, I'm hedging my bets.
From poking around on Dreamscarred's Pathfinder forums, I'm happy to see they are sticking close to Paizo's vision of tweaking/evolving 3.5. While some people would rather see a complete reworking of psionics, I'm personally happy that they are updating the XPH and existing system. Earlier versions of psionics were "uneven," but the XPH was very balanced and it worked (assuming the GM and players had time to learn the rules and limits of XPH psionics).
Given this, there is an absolute need for a psionics supplement for Pathfinder RPG. Not having it in the player's handbook/core book i agree with. But saying it should not be included even in supplemental books is like saying "I dont like Elves so they shouldnt include them in the game, not even in supplemental books.
My groups does not parcticularly like the set-up in Numeria on Golarion or the level of firearms from the Mana Wastes. But we are not going to say dont include them, we just wont use them in our campaigns.
This.
Psionics will always be a rarity. Some regions, like Vudra and the Darklands, will have psionics... but anyone that hates psionics has the rest of Golarion (and its solar system and the other planes) to explore.
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Thurgon, I noticed in your post, that you are essentially asking why have a third form of magic if it can be duplicated by what already exists.
On this thread you have gotten a variety of answers. I can’t answer for others but I can answer for myself. Simply put I like variety. I like the of having a warlock, who has a few spell like abilities at will, I like having a sorcerer who say draws from the power of a blood line or something like that, and I like having a wizard whom has picked his arcane knowledge through arduous study. Each of these classes is slightly different in their mechanics. I also like having psionics as well. I enjoy having the variety of spell like abilities, Vancian casting, and the Psionic power point system in the same game.
And yes there is the flavor question. I like the flavor as well.
As to whether psionics is “balanced” there are lots of people who believe, that psionics are unbalanced, and have had experiences of people wrecking their game with something unexpected or far too versatile. Unfortunately there is such a breadth of supplements rulebooks etc for 3.0 and 3.5 D&D it is easy to come up with a “game breaker”. Let me give you an example. Last Friday night, in a D&D game I play in which I enjoy and have fun in, I can think of one instance where the game was broken.
We are playing the Age of Worms adventure path. Let me give you our adventuring group, and then ill explain the moment where one of my fellow players “broke the game”. By that he found a rule combination that was very overpowered.
I have a human bard/rogue 5/2 seventh level. Because I haven’t been able to make all of the gaming sessions, I’m a level behind everyone. One player has a Half-orc Barbarian level 8; another player has a Halfling/ ½ drow rogue of 8 level. One of the other players has a Spirit Shaman/ Wizard/ Mystic Theurge. I think the levels are 3/3/2. Another player has a monk/ Dread Necormancer 2/7.
The player who “broke the game” has a Warforged fighter level 8. This doesn’t sound to exotic right? Well he found something in an obscure 3rd party source book, I think it was called the “mercenaries handbook”. It was a weapon quality called “serrated”. With this weapon quality you increase the weapon critical multiplier by one. His war forged wielded a long sword. With the serrated quality this weapon has a x3 critical multiplier, and a threat range of 17-20. He wielded his blade two handed and power attacked.
We were fighting a huge worm in this coliseum in Grey hawk. I think it was undead. It was the big monster fight at the end of the module. My friend with his Serrated blade did I think 138 and I think 157 points of damage. He got two confirmed critical hits while power attacking for +8 points (I think you double the +8 to +16 when wielding a weapon two handed) while wielding his long sword blade two handed that had a x3 multiplier.
I didn’t see the die rolls, they were across the table, and I'm not sure how he can do that much damage, but those questions aside, he brought the fight to an end quickly, and certainly outstripped the barbarian with his two handed great axe for damage.
Now I am sure with the benefit of hindsight, we can see where errors were made on both the player’s part, and the DM’s part.
My only point is this, if one wants to one can play judo with the rules and twist them into whatever pretzel they like.
In my experience, when I have both played a psionic character, and DMed with a player using psionics, I have not found the addition of psionics to be disruptive nor over powered when compared with other classes. I have found them to be remarkably balanced.
As has been noted before, we are doing an Open Design of a set of Psionics rules for Pathfinder both here and on our website. This assumes as much backwards compatibility with 3.5 as possible, tries to stay as close to Pathfinder "Design Principles" and we will offer both Alpha and Beta documents for free to the community in the hopes of creating a system we can all be proud of.
But, given the nature of the discussion, I would say that I do not see why one cannot add one or two "psychic" bloodlines to the Sorceror class if one prefers to retain the core classes and not add more base classes to the game, or an additional system. I would suggest a Telepath bloodline and a Telekinetic/Kineticist bloodline, these two being the "classic" psions. It might even be something we should work on as a companion release now that I think about it ;)
Thirdly, if you like Skill-based psionics, I would suggest taking a look at Green Ronin's "Psychics Handbook" which features an excellent skill-based psionics system.
I would like to see a psion class, with different spheres of focus similar to bloodlines/schools.
It should be a full caster class, with 1/2 BAB and d6 HD, I think most would probably agree with that.
However, I would like a non-power point system, a Vancian use of the powers.
That or more Warlock like with a few applicable powers, lots of customisation, mostly mental and mind focused powers, with some telekinetics, but as little 'energy' based attacks as possible, I don't wan't it to be like arcane magic with a different system, I want something subtle and yet with a great strength, but little flashiness and damaging abilities focused on f*+&ing with peoples head, or telekentic force.
[ASIDE: Has anyone ever seen a Psionic system like these? I'd love to see, purchase and use/convert it. Vancian, or other non-power point appraoches.]
The last time I asked James about Psionics, they weren't in the development cycle for 2010 or 2011.
Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Pathfinder Psionics.. because I get that 'offical' and 'canonical' bug sometimes. Happens to the best of us.
But the Dreamscarred lads seem earnest, are doing a proper Open Test, and seem very passionate about their work.
They're also shooting to have a product in the first quarter of 2010. So I'm planning on giving it a chance.
If three years from now, Paizo has their own version, I'll have something to compare. :)
NOTE: All schedules are subject to change, but unless James appears in a puff of smoke to say I'm wrong, I'm hedging my bets.
Mr Jacobs did say over in enworld that after APG they will have hardcover books that are more specialized. The plan is to have 3 a year
He specifically mentioned psionics and asia-theme
Regarding the nine-level based vancian psionics idea...i think that is nowhere close to a good system for psionics. I personally dislike it for magic in general. I like it even less for psionics. I feel that such a system would rob psionics of a lot of the feel they had in 3.0 and 3.5.
If i had to choose, I would prefer either stright power point system or straight skill system. For a skill system, the D20 and Saga Jedi systems would be a good place to start.
Regardless of how the main powers are used (power points or skill), the psionic classes should have sub-class systems similar to the sorcerer bloodlines, wizards specialists and clerical domains. If those classes get minor powers that dont tap their casting ability then psionicists should also recieve them. base them partly on what field they use for Psion(Seer, Shaper, Kineticist, Egoist, Nomad and Telepath). Classes like the Psychic Warrior and Soul Knife might have access to psionics on par with the Ranger/Paladin/Bard access to spells but more rely on their class features and feats.
The problem is the power point system is far more flexible then the current system for other casters. So if the psionic gets a far more flexible magic system he will be starting with a balance issue. Sure you can slam him back to balance by making his powers ultra weak, but that's not much fun. My problem with psionics is really how it's magic system isn't vancian and it should be if it is going to work in 3.X.
If it's just another caster class with 9 levels of spells that fulfill a flavor that you all want, I don't see any issue. If what you want is a different casting system, then I think you are going to invite problems.
Mr Jacobs did say over in enworld that after APG they will have hardcover books that are more specialized. The plan is to have 3 a year
He specifically mentioned psionics and asia-theme
I'm well aware Merrik, but what I said and what you've said aren't mutually exclusive. They might well do three hardbacks a year (one of which will always be a Monster Book), and still not touch psionics until 2012... or later.
Now as I said, they're also free to change their mind without notice. Heck they might read this and start to change their mind today.
But I stand behind what I said in good faith. When asked about a psionics book in 2010, he's said no. When I asked about 2011, he said not very likely.
But it's all good. If far down the future if there are two books, we can compare them to each other and see which one is better!
Maybe we'll get an Epic Book in 2011 instead, that would not make me sad.
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Juts my 2 cents.
A while ago someone made a post in this forums about using psionics as a sorcerer bloodline instead of a different system completly. So I figured I´d give that a shot for one of my psion loving players, and so designed said psionic bloodline as balanced and fun as possible.
The result wasn´t bad, the player had a blast wih the character, however it still felt like playing a sorcerer ultimately.
This is why I think psionics should be a different system. Maybe our minds have been corrupted so much by fantasy that our concept of psionics won´t allow anything but vastly different, i don´t know.
I do agree that Psionics still need refinement like either classes were in Pathfinder or continue to be refined - I think the Ranger could still use some refining - however that is a separate thread all together.
Is the real problem that Psionicist do not have a real role?
If they had a role, would that improve their outlook?
I've been using Psionics since 2nd edition and really most of my DMs never had a problem in handling me.
And why did they get rid of Accelerate (Psionic Haste) and just water it down like haste. Both were equally bad and lasted longer than combat would. In fact, I would say magic haste was worse because it was group oriented while accelerate was only for one toon.
The problem is the power point system is far more flexible then the current system for other casters.
To be fair, the powers are more flexiable, but the classes aren't. A 20th level Psion knows quite a few less spells than a 20th level sorcerer. Even from level one the wizard knows more spells than a Psion, and in PF they also get spell like abilities and an arcane bond on top of it.
As they level, yes their lower level powers remain useful, but the rate in which they gain new powers decresses as well.
My problem with psionics is really how it's magic system isn't vancian and it should be if it is going to work in 3.X.
The fact that it's not Vancian is one of it's biggest pluses in my opinion. Theres already alot of vancian casting classes, so it's easy to just use one of them if you prefer, but some of the better aspects of psionics (such as scaling powers etc) only work well with a power point system.
If it's just another caster class with 9 levels of spells that fulfill a flavor that you all want, I don't see any issue. If what you want is a different casting system, then I think you are going to invite problems.
But a new caster with different flavour does little to enchance a game. Every non-core casting class (like beguilers and dread necromancers), even if similer to the wizard/sorcerer, still get features to make them play differently.
Having different casting mechanics can make a class feel reall different. Psionics just wouldn't feel the same if they had spells per day, spell failure, and required components, and then there would be no point to them, simply having some mind-themed spells would replicate the role exactly (in fact, a few spells were origonally psionic powers).
That may just be me though. Trying out varient casting systems always appeals to me, I'm a big fan of Tomb of Magic (despite the classes being weaker compared to normal classes) as well as classes like the Archievist and Artificer.
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[ASIDE: Has anyone ever seen a Psionic system like these? I'd love to see, purchase and use/convert it. Vancian, or other non-power point appraoches.]
I really like the system used in Green Ronin's Complete Psychic, of which the mechanics (but not the fluff) are also reprinted in their Advanced Player's Guide as well.
Basically, each psychic power is a skill, and the amount by which you succeed your skill check determines amount of damage done, amount healed, etc. You suffer nonlethal 'strain' for using psychic powers (with various feats and options to mitigate this effect), although the back of the book has variant options (such as making Fort saves when using psychic powers at difficulties based on the amount of power used, and becoming Winded, Fatigued or even Exhausted from excessive use). You use Feats (of which the Psychic class gives a fair amount) to unlock new uses of skills (so someone with the Psychometabolism feat can learn Psychic Healing as a Skill, but would have to expand that with a Psychic Healer feat to be able to use the skill to cure disease and poison). Each 'discipline' is set under a different Feat, so that you have a Telepathy feat that opens up Cha-based telepathy skills, a Psychokinesis feat that opens up Int-based telekinesis, pyrokinesis, etc. skills, a Psychometabolism feat that opens up Wis-based healing and mind-over-body talents.
Strain is calculated based on the level of effect you manage to achieve with your skill check (although you can always choose to manifest at a lower level of effect, to save on strain), so that a telekinetic who wants to lift a small object can do so much more safely than one who wants to pick up a troll and throw it at another troll (which he can do as a combination move action + standard action!).
Converting it over to Pathfinder would be a minor pain, since some of the class abilities are defined by skill rank (which ends up being 3 less by level in Pathfinder), but I'm sure it's do-able.
The strain mechanic can also be a bother, and to buff the class up, having a Fortitude save with the DC based on the amount of strain accrued to avoid the strain entirely, or having strain (or fatigue) only occur on a botched roll, could make most of the disciplines a bit more 'lasting' in a moderate to higher-powered game. (Then again, the strain mechanic can also be laughed at dismissively, by a Psychometabolism-focussed psychic, who can drain vitality from others to recharge/heal himself, giving him more fuel to fire more attacks! Plus he's a minor-league healer. Not a bad job, if you can get it.)
Creative Director
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Psionics are certainly one of the topics we want to some day deal with; its a pretty popular subset of the game, and its fans are certainly vocal. But we have to time it right for what's good for the overall line, not just for what's right for Paizo. Epic content is PROBABLY more popular than psionics (although it's a close race), and we certainly won't be doing a psionics book and an epic book in the same year. Also complicating things is the fact that we're really eager and excited to do something NEW with Pathfinder rather than just ape the release schedule of every previous edition of the game.
As for when they finally do happen, I can pretty much guarantee that psionics will NOT be substantially different than the game's current spellcasters... they're very likely to, mechanically, be even closer to arcane and divine spells than they are even in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and that's something that a lot of psionics fans are going to have difficulty with accepting. But since no one at Paizo's interested in building a set of psionics rules that breaks the game or makes the core classes of the game feel underpowered (which is the way it works now in 3.5), that's not really something that's up for debate.
Another option would be to do something like what TSR did with Dark Sun. Introduce a new setting in Golarion where psionics are the way of things and arcane/divine magic is not. That lets us develop psionics in a "bubble" that doesn't have to worry about clashing with existing rules... but no matter how thick that "bubble" is there'll be leakage. Folks will want to play psionic characters in Golarion no matter what, and saying you can't is bad design. Saying you can't is basically saying we messed up somewhere. To be done right, psionics HAS to exist peacefully and equally with divine/arcane/martial classes. And it might be the only way that can happen is to boot the point-based system entirely.
My personal preference would be, of course, to build psionic characters VERY similar to how the sorcerer or the bard works for the power users, or the barbarian for how the soulblade non-power users work. Spell slots and "psionic powers" (instead of rage powers). Then the actual mechanics work fine, and we don't have the concerns about psionic characters being able to nova and make the core classes feel lame.
I almost think that the best bet is to simply let Dreamscarred's psionics stuff come out and let THAT satisfy the fans of psionics, to be honest. I'm pretty sure that if they keep their momentum up and running, they'll get something in print long before we could anyway.
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That sounds fairly reazonable. That way there will be 2 different options for anyone wanting to use psionics in whatever game they want. You´ll have the dreamscarred ones that resemble the point system 3.5 introduced for when a gae needs a different system for psionics. And on the other hand there will be a more streamlined more compatible version being published by paizo, eho have not disappointed me (personally) so far when it comes to class development.
So all and all i think I´m happy with all this.
Sounds cool to me!
Choices are not bad things! And all this means is we get one choice first, to tie us over.. and another choice later.
It could be that we like what we get served first.. or maybe we elect to change to a different flavor later.
Nobody is a loser in this arrangement.
But since no one at Paizo's interested in building a set of psionics rules that breaks the game or makes the core classes of the game feel underpowered (which is the way it works now in 3.5), that's not really something that's up for debate.
Sorry but..have you actually seen 3.5 psionics in play? The previous incarnations, granted, are overpowering, but 3.5 seems reasonably balanced barr one or two minor aspects. In fact, I'd say 3.5 psionics was miles more balanced than the majority of 3.5 comtent (especially core).
Also, to be fair, even if certain psionic abilities were overpowering, it's pretty unfair to label an entire sub-section of magic overpowering. The wilder and soulknife, for instance, are widely regarded as being very underpowered, despite the wilder even getting 9th level powers. You wouldn't call divine magic as a whole overpowering if you thought the cleric is too much would you?
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To be done right, psionics HAS to exist peacefully and equally with divine/arcane/martial classes. And it might be the only way that can happen is to boot the point-based system entirely.
I think you're absolutely right. The differences in base mechanics between arcane/divine magic and psionics is the genesis point for nearly all "psionics are unbalanced/over-powered compared to magic" arguments. Ditching spellpoints and going to a Vancian system (since magic and the associated existing classes are already Vancian) is the best and simplest way to help ensure pathfinder psionics will be balanced with the core game mechanics.
-Skeld
Sounds good to me, the point system is ok, but feels off and has it's on set of issues and can be a bit overpowered in some area. Retooling it or going to a slot like system is good with me. Hell I'll try anything ya end up with really
I am still not seeing why people think it is overpowering.
In all of my good DM games, the DMs had no problems in handling me and didn't have to take out the party. This included 2nd and 3.5 editions.
I was the one playing the psionicist.
You never heard of handling the mail or handling ammunition?
The main prejudice is Psionics are over powered so I say handle meaning he had no problems in dealing with my Psionicist.
Ok, here we go -
My previous DMs had no problems in dealing with my Psionicist.
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Why don't I use a sorceror? What would I call my sorceror then?
Just thought I'd try to contribute by responding to this particular line.
Sorcerers and wizards, in the eyes of non-magic users, are very similar. To most people they have many names, alchemist, augurer, charmer, clairvoyant, conjurer, diviner, enchanter, fortune-teller, magician, necromancer, occultist, seer, shaman, soothsayer, sorceress, thaumaturge, warlock, and witch being amongst the names that a wizard or sorcerer might be called by a common townsfolk.
hey I really like psionics allot. I was playing a 2e dark sun game before jumping over to Pathfinder. I thought what they did with them in the expanded book put them on the level as the other classes. I like the flavor of them.
To me thou it was part of me loving Athas. In the world of Golarion from the parts we seem is very swords and sorcery vibe to it. To me I just do not see psionics belonging. Thou if a player of mine wanted to play a telepath or something I would hand him my copy of the EPH and said here roll. I never saw them as over powered. It is something my characters want for themselves than I will find a way to handle it.
I've removed a couple posts. It's bad form to tell a moderator that a request to act in a mature fashion is a 'personal attack.'
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Creative Director
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But since no one at Paizo's interested in building a set of psionics rules that breaks the game or makes the core classes of the game feel underpowered (which is the way it works now in 3.5), that's not really something that's up for debate.Sorry but..have you actually seen 3.5 psionics in play? The previous incarnations, granted, are overpowering, but 3.5 seems reasonably balanced barr one or two minor aspects. In fact, I'd say 3.5 psionics was miles more balanced than the majority of 3.5 comtent (especially core).
Also, to be fair, even if certain psionic abilities were overpowering, it's pretty unfair to label an entire sub-section of magic overpowering. The wilder and soulknife, for instance, are widely regarded as being very underpowered, despite the wilder even getting 9th level powers. You wouldn't call divine magic as a whole overpowering if you thought the cleric is too much would you?
I've seen the 3.5 psionics rules in play. Many times. Used by professional game designers. And in every case, they pushed the psionics rules to the limit and caused a LOT of problems; taking turns that took 4 to 5 times as long as the other players (since psionics have a lot more tricks on how to do immediate actions and fast stuff like that), going nova and blasting through encounters with shocking speed, and basically doing things that other classes normally excell at but better.
I'm a fan of the FLAVOR of psionics; always have been. I often work psionic stuff into the things I design (check out all the psionic stuff in "Into the Darklands" for an example). I'm probably Paizo's BIGGEST pro-psionics guy.
But my concerns about the rules as they worked in 3.5 are not knee-jerk reactions. Far from it.
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Creative Director
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I've removed a couple posts. It's bad form to tell a moderator that a request to act in a mature fashion is a 'personal attack.'
To echo this real quick; we've had a LOT of bad feelings about 4th edition on these threads, and I'm at a point of zero-tolerance when it comes to edition wars and related trolling. Don't do it.
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I think the problem with the psionic system is not that they´re unbalanced powerwise with everything else in the game, but that they´re unbalaced within themselves.
As was stated they can burn half their resources in a single ¨turn¨fairly easily (schism, temporal acceleration, anticipatory strike, powers augmented to be done as move) and outmatch any class. However after that they underperform the resto of the day.
So the problem lays with their playability as part of an adventuring party, when most classes are focused on more lasting consistent levels of power.
That makes them disturbing and hard to balance from a design perspective. (just my tought thou)
I'm really happy with the two options, thats a great way to keep both the pro-point based 3.5 fans, and the like the flavour uninterested in the mechanics groups happy!
I've seen the 3.5 psionics rules in play. Many times. Used by professional game designers. And in every case, they pushed the psionics rules to the limit and caused a LOT of problems; taking turns that took 4 to 5 times as long as the other players (since psionics have a lot more tricks on how to do immediate actions and fast stuff like that), going nova and blasting through encounters with shocking speed, and basically doing things that other classes normally excell at but better.
I suppose my biggest worry is that Paizo will do a Psionics book, and they'll take a hard strike with a nerf bat. Psionics themselves havn't seemed that problematic to me, and well...in all honesty, whenever I see a specfic complaint about psionics (such as "That power is overpowering" or "That feat combination is overpowering), players usally don't take into account existing material (for instance, I've seen players complain about certain powres being overpowering...even though spells of the same level do far worse or acheive the same effect more easily).
They might have seemed overpowering at your table, but as you said the designers pushed them - Any class can become broken with the right feats and play-style.
Comparing a Psion to their arcane counterpart, the wizard, the only real advantage I can see is that Psion energy abilities are better. But then again, generally energy abilities aren't the cause of any balance issues (unlike spells like polymorph). Novaing, in my experience, is a myth. A psion can blow his/her powers all at once, but so can normal spellcasters, the difference being that when a normal spellcaster is done they'll still have lower level spells left, and unlike a psions powers they still scale with level.
I think Psionics only needs refinement and not nerfing. Look how many times haste has been refined - no longer do we have a Greater Master Two-Weapon style Cuisinart having 10 attacks and moving at the speed of light. Psionics can be refined to work even with power points and I think it would help to define a role for them. Think about it, Psionics are still fairly new and more of an after thought. And yes, Psionics fits into a fantasy setting where the impossible is possible.
I've seen the 3.5 psionics rules in play. Many times. Used by professional game designers. And in every case, they pushed the psionics rules to the limit and caused a LOT of problems; taking turns that took 4 to 5 times as long as the other players (since psionics have a lot more tricks on how to do immediate actions and fast stuff like that), going nova and blasting through encounters with shocking speed, and basically doing things that other classes normally excell at but better.
I suppose my biggest worry is that Paizo will do a Psionics book, and they'll take a hard strike with a nerf bat. Psionics themselves havn't seemed that problematic to me, and well...in all honesty, whenever I see a specfic complaint about psionics (such as "That power is overpowering" or "That feat combination is overpowering), players usally don't take into account existing material (for instance, I've seen players complain about certain powres being overpowering...even though spells of the same level do far worse or acheive the same effect more easily).
They might have seemed overpowering at your table, but as you said the designers pushed them - Any class can become broken with the right feats and play-style.
Comparing a Psion to their arcane counterpart, the wizard, the only real advantage I can see is that Psion energy abilities are better. But then again, generally energy abilities aren't the cause of any balance issues (unlike spells like polymorph). Novaing, in my experience, is a myth. A psion can blow his/her powers all at once, but so can normal spellcasters, the difference being that when a normal spellcaster is done they'll still have lower level spells left, and unlike a psions powers they still scale with level.
All this aside, just use the Dreamscarred version, its fairly official, and an update of the 3.5 system, not the creation of a new one.
Psionics are certainly one of the topics we want to some day deal with; its a pretty popular subset of the game, and its fans are certainly vocal. But we have to time it right for what's good for the overall line, not just for what's right for Paizo. Epic content is PROBABLY more popular than psionics (although it's a close race), and we certainly won't be doing a psionics book and an epic book in the same year. Also complicating things is the fact that we're really eager and excited to do something NEW with Pathfinder rather than just ape the release schedule of every previous edition of the game.
Perhaps the character starts out more like a psi-warrior and once they reach 20 level, they can make an Epic path decision?
1) A warrior path
2) A Cerebremancer path
3) etc
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I suppose my biggest worry is that Paizo will do a Psionics book, and they'll take a hard strike with a nerf bat.
If you mean to say: "I hope Paizo doesn't make psionics equally powerful to divine and arcane magic," then you will indeed be disappointed.
If you mean to say: "I hope Paizo doesn't go too far and make psionics useless," that's a more valid concern. I don't want that either.
It's a complicated process. The end result HAS to be "Psionic magic and divine magic and arcane magic" are all the same power level, roughly. The game's divine spellcasters and arcane spellcasters do different things and have different specialties, but they don't feel "more potent" than each other, really.
I honestly think that my big concerns with psoinics, mechanically speaking, could be solved by removing the glut of powers that allow multiple actions in a turn and by removing the capacity for a psionic character to use ALL of his potential power up in one encounter (removing the ability to nova). There's some flavor changes I'd like to make too (shifting them away from the new-age crystal/pseudo sci-fi stuff and into something more mystical, perhaps), but the flavor changes are easier—flavor is what we're best at here at Paizo, I think, so I'm not as worried about that.
A psionic character whose powers worked similar to a sorcerer; spell slots per day, can't use lots of lower level slots to power additional higher level ones, can't supercharge powers, would probably solve my concerns.
I'm actually going to be playtesting some psionic rules, in fact, next month. I'm gonna start running an "Unspeakable Futures" campaign, which is my home brew apocalyptic world game that uses the Pathifnder RPG rules. Psionic powers are a big part of that setting, and I'm gonna be taking them on a test drive there to see if I can wrap my own head around how to do psionics so that they work well with divine casters and arcane casters and non-spellcasting classes. So by early next year, my hopes and fears regarding psionics might well be changed.
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I like point based psionics. Perhaps psionic powers should be reworked? Also, sci-fi crystal-loving psionics is what attracted me. I would not like to see that flavor changed. I think that you should try to tie psionics with other planets in the Golarion system. Perhaps something like S.M. Stirling's novels of Mars and Venus?
I hate the crystal psions..oh I hate them..and the engry blaster psion...ugh...psion should have fire not sci-fi energy. Am all for a reworking
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Well this seems like an excellent solution. The Dream scarred press people can put out a Psionics update of their own for Pathfinder. It sounds like they play to stick close to the 3.5 expanded psioncis. This would make this psionics fan happy.
Also this will relieve the Paizo people from having to figure something out, and they can either concentrate on something new, or something they feel needs polishing, that might appeal to a larger audience. And at a later date they can visit Psionics if they want to or not. Then we psionic fans will have two options, what the Dream Scarred press people have done, and what the Paizo people have done.
Sounds good to me.