The usefulness of what you can combine Vital Strike with also depends on your DM. As there is some debate about what a "attack action" can be combined with... (Cleave + Vital Strike?)
However, Vital Strike does tend to shine when using larger Two-handed/Two Dice weapons such as a Falchion or Greatsword.
Okay weird suggestion but it could work:
Human, Dex +2, Fighter for five levels, feats of Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, and Improved Initiative. Dip Shadowdancer for 4 levels for HiPS, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (You've got a high Dex, might as well use it), Darkvision, Rogue Talent (namely "Fast Stealth"), Summon Shadow, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, and Shadow Jump. Meanwhile picking up Improved Disarm and Whirlwind Attack. Then go Duelist for 10 levels (You've already got the Perform from the Prerequisite for the Shadowdancer). And Fighter at 20th. Pick up Improved and Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, Agile Maneuvers, Lunge, and one of these two depending on play style {Vital Strike, Wind Stance}.
BTW: Light Weapons Training might be a good choice for weapon finesse and sickles are trip weapons. You could also do a Whip Exotic Weapon Proficiency since it is both a trip and disarm weapon, and in combination with Lunge since it's a reach weapon it could get particularly deadly especially if you take a position right behind another front-line fighter. Similarly a Spiked Chain could do the same thing, but these are not "light or one-handed piercing weapons." Switching back and forth depending on the scenario may be the best bet for benefit since you will have the upper hand of preparation, but just going with a good rapier might be your best bet.
Let me know what you guys think of this.
think i would go with the pure fighter shadowdancer combo. Then run around in mithril breast plate to still get evasion bonus, and get a 2h wp to attack with.
If you stack up with dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat expertise, lunge, whirlwind and stand still. Then i would run around spring attacking and hiding always trying to get into a good position for the whirlwind attack. If you pull off a nice whirlwind with a 2h wp with power attack and a high strenght bonus, you could probably cripple most of the monsters in the encounter.
The problem the normal fighter faces with whirlwind, is that he usually has to accept atleast a coupple AOPs for him to get into position to use it in his next action, and by then he will get beaten to death by whatever the PCs face. This shadowdancer can simply spring attack / stealth in there and dont have these problems. Ofc you still face getting hit by everything before your next action where you can hide again, but that is still way less than the whirlwind fighter.
You would also make up for the lost BAB, by hitting everything flat footed, so you wouldnt get too gimped on high levels.
do you guys think this would work?
Okay, the major thing I would like to see in action from a fighter type character is a Duelist that gets off a No Retreat/Greater Trip Combo. It's like buffing yourself as a fighter class because of the +4 to hit when the enemy is prone. If you were to have a Two-Weapon Rogue in your party, he would love you. The Whirlwind Attack on top of this would be a little on the ridiculous side especially with lunge. -2 to AC? When you're not going to to be attacked by at least half the battlefield? Deal! I'll take it!
Add to that the Shadow Dancer stuff and you've got a tricky frontline fighter that can level half the monsters on the playing field without taking a lot of damage. It's truly insane if it would work like I think it would.
I've recently being having some ideas pop into my head about a scythe wielding fighter who specializes in tripping. After a little additional thought... this could work well as a fighter/shadowdancer build.
Think of how menacing it'd be to have a fighter who can trip you before you even see 'em, and then plunge a huge blade into your chest while you lie prone. Combine with a cloak and mask and some intimidate skill.
I've recently being having some ideas pop into my head about a scythe wielding fighter who specializes in tripping. After a little additional thought... this could work well as a fighter/shadowdancer build.
Think of how menacing it'd be to have a fighter who can trip you before you even see 'em, and then plunge a huge blade into your chest while you lie prone. Combine with a cloak and mask and some intimidate skill.
Please share.
Please share.I've recently being having some ideas pop into my head about a scythe wielding fighter who specializes in tripping. After a little additional thought... this could work well as a fighter/shadowdancer build.
Think of how menacing it'd be to have a fighter who can trip you before you even see 'em, and then plunge a huge blade into your chest while you lie prone. Combine with a cloak and mask and some intimidate skill.
Well... right now it is as I said... just an idea as given above.
I'm guessing we are looking at a 5th level Human Fighter who chooses "Blades: Heavy" for Weapon Training for that additional +1 when using Scythes to trip. Combat Expertise>Improved Trip>Greater Trip feat tree at the very least. Toss in Weapon Focus/Specialization, Dazzling Display for flavor.
Move on into Shadowdancer... RP a scary mo-fo. :)
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By the way, Hellcat Stealth is also a fun feat for guys that want to make Stealth checks in normal light. Kind of the opposite of Shadowdancer, but it's nice to cover all your bases.
Hellcat Stealth - From Cheliax: Empire of Devils
HI, I'm a fighter that was built to transition into Shadowdancer. :)
I love the Shadowdancer...
Although...
If you stick with Fighter till 6th level you'd get one more feat and a +6 BAB which would allow you to pick up Vital Strike...
4d4+STR1/2+WepSpec+WepTraining has a nice ring to it.
Hmm, a little strange featwise, but i think a fighter 8/Shadowdancer 4/Misc(maybe rogue?) 8 with the Deadly Stroke feat could be brutal...
By the way, Hellcat Stealth is also a fun feat for guys that want to make Stealth checks in normal light. Kind of the opposite of Shadowdancer, but it's nice to cover all your bases.
Hellcat Stealth - From Cheliax: Empire of Devils
Indeed its a neat feat. :)
Please share.I've recently being having some ideas pop into my head about a scythe wielding fighter who specializes in tripping. After a little additional thought... this could work well as a fighter/shadowdancer build.
Think of how menacing it'd be to have a fighter who can trip you before you even see 'em, and then plunge a huge blade into your chest while you lie prone. Combine with a cloak and mask and some intimidate skill.
Well... right now it is as I said... just an idea as given above.
I'm guessing we are looking at a 5th level Human Fighter who chooses "Blades: Heavy" for Weapon Training for that additional +1 when using Scythes to trip. Combat Expertise>Improved Trip>Greater Trip feat tree at the very least. Toss in Weapon Focus/Specialization, Dazzling Display for flavor.
Move on into Shadowdancer... RP a scary mo-fo. :)
Expanding upon the above...
There is a cloak in the Magic Item Compendium that allows you to store a weapon. That'd be a fun item to have for the character concept. Nothing like reaching into the folds of your cloak and pulling out a SCYTHE! If you could get a item such as a skull mask that makes you more intimidating that'd also fit the concept.
I am finally getting a chance to maybe play a fighter/Shadowdancer
I could use some help.
I have been given the option of trading both my tower shield and heavy armor proficiency for weapon finesse and dodge, big plus. :D
We are starting at level 4
However I can't decide if I should go Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 or Barbarian 2/ Fighter 3
What comes down here is which is more important, a rage ability like scent or darkvission, or an extra feat most likely used for weapon specialization allowing for extra damage since my dex build is lacking damage capability.
Here is what I got planed so far
13,9,16,13,10,15,*3
Race: Elf
Str: 13
Dex: 21 16+2+2+1=
Con: 14 15-2+1=
Int: 15 13+2=
Wis: 10
Cha: 9
Levels 1 Barbarian/3 Fighter
Elven Curve Blade
No Heavy Armor : Weapon Finesse
No Tower Shield : Dodge
1st Power Attack
F1 Mobility
F2 Weapon Focus: Elven Curve Blade
3rd Combat Reflexes
F4 Weapon Specialization Or Rage Power
Skill
Stealth 4
*Perception 4
*Acrobatics 4
Escape Artist 4
*Intimidate 4
Perform Dance 1 or 2 (depending on class combination)
So any suggestions on which is more important rage power o fighter feat?
Thanks
Great build ideas posted here.
I'd say the only thing about playing a Shadowdancer that doesn't have Rogue levels is that you miss out on taking the Rogue talent Fast Stealth, which synergizes quite beautifully with HiPS.
Erm, the Shadowdancer gains rogue talents so picking up Fast Stealth isn't a big deal.
We even homebrewed it so that the shadowdancer can take sneak attack 1d6 instead of a rogue talent. Makes the class a bit more attractive.
Great build ideas posted here.
I'd say the only thing about playing a Shadowdancer that doesn't have Rogue levels is that you miss out on taking the Rogue talent Fast Stealth, which synergizes quite beautifully with HiPS.
Erm, the Shadowdancer gains rogue talents so picking up Fast Stealth isn't a big deal.
We even homebrewed it so that the shadowdancer can take sneak attack 1d6 instead of a rogue talent. Makes the class a bit more attractive.
Well, since you felt so strongly about something I said four months ago, I suppose I should grant you the courtesy of a reply. :)
You are correct, and I had neglected to note that in my original post.
The DIFFERENCE is that if you level into Shadowdancer from Rogue, you will probably already have Fast Stealth, meaning you benefit from that+HIPS as soon as you take the first level of Shadowdancer.
If you don't have at least 2 rogue levels before you take the PrC, you have to wait until your third level of Shadowdancer to pick up the talent. Depending on how slowly your game progresses, this could be frustrating as your ability to use HIPS in certain situations becomes limited for those first two levels. However, there are still many cool things you can do even if you don't have it. I was never meaning to suggest that you couldn't be a non-rogue shadowdancer, and as I'd said, many of the builds suggested were very cool.
the best combo in my mind, and the one i made was
3/2 rogue/fighter to shadow dancer.
i get a boat load of skill points, which is important- stealth/acrobatics/perception should be maxed, and you have left over for some nice rp skills.
2d6 sneak damage, fast stealth
the two levels of fighters provide feats.
which means you will have hips/spring attack, maxed skills and 2d6 sneak attack damage as a 1st level shadow dancer.
as for why 3/2 fighter over 2/3 fighter. i feel the 6 skill points/d6 sneak attack is worth more than armor training, if you want to intent is to use hips and spring attack as your main combat mechanism. since mithril will replicate armor training.
As I'm thinking about it wouldn't lance/charge specialist also be a viable path for someone who's mobility and stealth allow single strike and disengage virtually at will?
However I can't decide if I should go Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 or Barbarian 2/ Fighter 3
My suggestion would be to go with fighter5 and to not skimp on STR.
Weapon finesse is cute and all, but not something upon which to rely.
Level 5 can pick you up a +1/+1 to hit&dam for your focus weapon all the time, which will more than balance out occasional rages.
I don't see why you're looking at Darkvision as a rage power as shadowdancer is going to give that to you.
-James
Interesting, what feat selection would you suggest?
Great build ideas posted here.
I'd say the only thing about playing a Shadowdancer that doesn't have Rogue levels is that you miss out on taking the Rogue talent Fast Stealth, which synergizes quite beautifully with HiPS.
Erm, the Shadowdancer gains rogue talents so picking up Fast Stealth isn't a big deal.
We even homebrewed it so that the shadowdancer can take sneak attack 1d6 instead of a rogue talent. Makes the class a bit more attractive.
Well, since you felt so strongly about something I said four months ago, I suppose I should grant you the courtesy of a reply. :)
You are correct, and I had neglected to note that in my original post.
The DIFFERENCE is that if you level into Shadowdancer from Rogue, you will probably already have Fast Stealth, meaning you benefit from that+HIPS as soon as you take the first level of Shadowdancer.
If you don't have at least 2 rogue levels before you take the PrC, you have to wait until your third level of Shadowdancer to pick up the talent. Depending on how slowly your game progresses, this could be frustrating as your ability to use HIPS in certain situations becomes limited for those first two levels. However, there are still many cool things you can do even if you don't have it. I was never meaning to suggest that you couldn't be a non-rogue shadowdancer, and as I'd said, many of the builds suggested were very cool.
Aw shucks, I didn't notice the date. Many apologies, but my point still stands! (and so does yours)
Interesting, what feat selection would you suggest?Depends what all you wish to do with the character and what party they are going to fit into.
You're looking at 6 (+1 for human) feats by 5th level. Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Mobility, Weapon Focus & Weapon Spec are reasonable to have online or required to have by then. This leaves you 1 (or 2) feats to play with... I'd reserve one for power attack already.
Now decide where you want to go.. whirlwind? Lunge, stand still, etc?
With combat reflexes it's reasonable to set yourself up with a reach weapon. You might wish an exotic one, lock it in early.
-James
Yeah, what I came up with as well.
check out the Fauchard
EDIT: I'd really only planned on a one or two level dip for Hide in Plain Sight and perhaps Darkvision. Then back into fighter.
While I understand where you're coming from, this kind of character build decision always makes me wonder..
''Yeah, well, I tried being a Shadow Dancer but, ya know? It just wasn't me. So I quit.''
o_O
Yeah, what I came up with as well.check out the Fauchard
Fauchard seems very good.
You'll need to consider combat expertise and improved trip, and when you want those to come online.
This moves towards a 'control' kind of fighter, which is VERY party dependent and in the wrong party can be a horrible fit. So make sure that the PC can fit in well with the group he'll find himself in.
-James
The nice thing is that with traits are you could always chose Heirloom Weapon Trait and you are proficient with it for free, and you get the masterwork version for no additional cost. But I was more interested in the good critical range. that it had reach, and that it still did a D10 damage.If you can't use the trait, I suggest the Bardiche. Its only a 19-20 critical range weapon, but its martial so you save yourself a feat.
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Huh... apparently it's not in the PRD! The text is definitely in the book, but mine's not handy so I can't give a page number.The rule was in the Beta referencing converted PrCs, I'm fairly certain it got pulled entirely in the final.
No it's still a rule if you're converting a 3.5 PrC to pathfinder, that was always a conversion rule, Shadowdancer is not a conversion, it's been updated to pathfinder, so you use the skill ranks as given. But if you're converting a 3.5 PrC to pathfinder you still use that rule.
Is Vital Strike really all that good? I guess if you spring attack.What happens if you critical?
Vital does not stack with whirlwind though right?
Doesn't work I believe. Spring attack can't be combined with Vital Strike (same reason can;t be used with charge, wrong action).
Fly By Attack feat does work.
Is Vital Strike really all that good? I guess if you spring attack.What happens if you critical?
Vital does not stack with whirlwind though right?
Doesn't work I believe. Spring attack can't be combined with Vital Strike (same reason can;t be used with charge, wrong action).
Fly By Attack feat does work.
Yeah, that was clarified. Thanks.
I'm reading the following text on ShadowDancers:
Alignment: Because of their nature as visually duplicitous tricksters, shadowdancers do not fit comfortably into the lawful category, as many use their talents to avoid the eyes of legitimate authority. Yet though they are allies of darkness, shadowdancers are neither inherently evil nor predisposed to good. To them, the darkness is simply the darkness, without any of the usual moral connotations made by the unenlightened.
Would this preclude a Paladin/ShadowDancer build?
If not, I'm considering this:
Str: 14 (5) Dex 15 (7) Con 11 (1) Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 15 (7)
as a Human character, putting the +2 into STR
Traits: Armor Training, Kelishite Prince (Intimidate)
Paladin, Levels 1-5:
Level 1 Feats: Dodge, Mobility
Level 3 Feat: Combat Reflexes
Level 4 Stat: +1 Dex
Level 5 Feat: Spring Attack
ShadowDancer, Levels 6-9
Level 7 Feat: Weapon Focus (primary weapon)
Level 8 Stat: +1 Cha. Rogue Talent: Swift Stealth
Level 9 Feat: Improved Critical (primary weapon)
Paladin, levels 10-??
Level 11 Feat: ??
Level 12 Stat: +1 Con
Level 13 Feat: ??
If I go for a mount, does Shadow Jump allow me to ride my mount from shadows to shadows? :)
I just got a chance to play my first character 4 levels into the build.
I did barbarian 1/fighter 3. However Impressive he was he died.
It did an incredible amounts of damage in melee as I had the heirloom weapon trait, and the GM allowed me to send 2700 gold to make it adamantine (-300 for free MW), so it didn't become useless later on.
I was allowed to trade heavy armor and tower shield prof. for dodge and mobility, as my dex was so high I would never need them.
The stats we all started with were:
*# being points to add to their stats, but not past 18
12,16,11,12,11,18,*2 working to be eldrich knight
13,9,16,13,10,15,*5 druid
14,15,14,9,15,13,*3 rogue
11,16,15,9,15,10,*3 bard
13,9,16,13,10,15,*3 myself working to shadowdancer
My Character
Race: Human
Stat+points+race+leveling
Str: 21 +4 16+2+2+1 25 +7
Dex: 16 +3 15+0+0+1
Con: 13 +1
Int: 13 +1
Wis: 10
Cha: 9
Levels 1 Barbarian/3 Fighter
Trait: Desert Shadow
Trait: Coherent Rage: Stealth
Trait: Heirloom Weapon (+1 hit, free masterwork)
No Tower Shield : Dodge
No Heavy Armor : Mobility
H Power Attack
1st Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard
F1 Weapon Focus: Fauchard
F2 Combat Reflexes
3rd Combat Expertise
Skills
B 6 F 15
Stealth 4
Perception 4
Acrobatics 4
Escape Artist 4
Bluff 4
Perform Dance 1
Fauchard 14gp 1d10 18-20/x2—10 lbs. Reach, Trip
6500 gold
MW Breastplate 350
Adamantine Fauchard 2714
Ring of Subsidence 2500
Shirt of Cleaning 1/day 180
Explorer's Outfits 1
Armor Spikes 50
MW Silver Lucerne Hammer 495
Backpack 2
Belt Pouch 1
So while raging for my total of 5 rounds I will be hitting and damaging like this.
Hit: +14 Damage: +10
Power attack
Nit: 12 Damage: +16
I lucked out on the Hit dice rolls a little
12 base (barbarian), 9, 8, and 5 on the D10s, for a total of 46 hp (while raging).
This wasn't a bad character at all despite sharing the weakest character stats with the bard.
How did he die? Well the main problem was we got into a bad situation.
1. We were going up against a lot of undead with out a cleric.
2. Our dice failed us all with dealing with a trap at a critical moment.
This left us only 3 squares to stand on in a 5ft wide hall, with a pit to these three character's backs, leaving 2 characters out of the fight 3 squares away from the last one. On the other side of this 50 deep pit was 2 heavily armed and armored skeleton looking undead, but obviously more than normal skeletons. The trap re-set itself every minute or so. After the first few times of trying to disarm this trap, one of the skeletons ran and got their undead cleric to help. Things just went down hill. By the time we decided to just jump them there were now 3 powerful undead waiting for us. The cleric has over 5 channel energies. This spread over the part multiple times dealing each doing 4D6 points of damage with a DC 17 will save. I some how made all but 1 of my saving throws against them, but he got really lucky on the damage for those nearly 20 points of damage on multiple uses. This with the one skeleton with a reach weapon, and the other with a tower shield and full plate armor, and really poor rolls we had no chance.
I wasn't the only one to die, the bard did as well. The two in the back had put pistons over the pit. While the bard was running, he happened to be over the the pit when a wave of channel energy hit, this dropped him to below 0 hit points and fell to his death by 5D6 points of damage.
I died because after my rage ran out I lost consciousness. The others got me back out, but as we were running away the last channel energy hit and dropped me again. The others got me away, but was not able to get help to me before I went to negative con. and I had next to no chance of making a DC 22 or 23 stabilization.
Anyway, I am looking forward to a new. and hopefully have a better, set of stats to hopefully give the build another try. I just hope I can get my character to shadow dancer next time.
I just got a chance to play my first character 4 levels into the build.
I did barbarian 1/fighter 3. However Impressive he was he died.
It did an incredible amounts of damage in melee as I had the heirloom weapon trait, and the GM allowed me to send 2700 gold to make it adamantine (-300 for free MW), so it didn't become useless later on.
I was allowed to trade heavy armor and tower shield prof. for dodge and mobility, as my dex was so high I would never need them.
The stats we all started with were:
*# being points to add to their stats, but not past 18
12,16,11,12,11,18,*2 working to be eldrich knight
13,9,16,13,10,15 *5 druid
14,15,14,9,15,13 *3 rogue
9,15,10,11,15,16 *3 bard
9,15,10,13,13,16 *3 myself working to shadowdancer
My Character
Race: Human
Stat+points+race+leveling
Str: 21 +4 16+2+2+1 25 +7
Dex: 16 +3 15+0+0+1
Con: 13 +1
Int: 13 +1
Wis: 10
Cha: 9
Levels 1 Barbarian/3 Fighter
Trait: Desert Shadow
Trait: Coherent Rage: Stealth
Trait: Heirloom Weapon (+1 hit, free masterwork)
No Tower Shield : Dodge
No Heavy Armor : Mobility
H Power Attack
1st Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard
F1 Weapon Focus: Fauchard
F2 Combat Reflexes
3rd Combat Expertise
Skills
B 6 F 15
Stealth 4
Perception 4
Acrobatics 4
Escape Artist 4
Bluff 4
Perform Dance 1
Fauchard 14gp 1d10 18-20/x2—10 lbs. Reach, Trip
6500 gold
MW Breastplate 350
Adamantine Fauchard 2714
Ring of Subsidence 2500
Shirt of Cleaning 1/day 180
Explorer's Outfits 1
Armor Spikes 50
MW Silver Lucerne Hammer 495
Backpack 2
Belt Pouch 1
So while raging for my total of 5 rounds I will be hitting and damaging like this.
Hit: +14 Damage: +10
Power attack
Nit: 12 Damage: +16
I lucked out on the Hit dice rolls a little
12 base (barbarian), 9, 8, and 5 on the D10s, for a total of 46 hp (while raging).
This wasn't a bad character at all despite sharing the weakest character stats with the bard.
How did he die? Well the main problem was we got into a bad situation.
1. We were going up against a lot of undead with out a cleric.
2. Our dice failed us all with dealing with a trap at a critical moment.
This left us only 3 squares to stand on in a 5ft wide hall, with a pit to these three character's backs, leaving 2 characters out of the fight 3 squares away from the last one. On the other side of this 50 deep pit was 2 heavily armed and armored skeleton looking undead, but obviously more than normal skeletons. The trap re-set itself every minute or so. After the first few times of trying to disarm this trap, one of the skeletons ran and got their undead cleric to help. Things just went down hill. By the time we decided to just jump them there were now 3 powerful undead waiting for us. The cleric has over 5 channel energies. This spread over the part multiple times dealing each doing 4D6 points of damage with a DC 17 will save. I some how made all but 1 of my saving throws against them, but he got really lucky on the damage for those nearly 20 points of damage on multiple uses. This with the one skeleton with a reach weapon, and the other with a tower shield and full plate armor, and really poor rolls we had no chance.
I wasn't the only one to die, the bard did as well. The two in the back had put pistons over the pit. While the bard was running, he happened to be over the the pit when a wave of channel energy hit, this dropped him to below 0 hit points and fell to his death by 5D6 points of damage.
I died because after my rage ran out I lost consciousness. The others got me back out, but as we were running away the last channel energy hit and dropped me again. The others got me away, but was not able to get help to me before I went to negative con. and I had next to no chance of making a DC 22 or 23 stabilization.
Anyway, I am looking forward to a new, and hopefully better, set of stats to hopefully give the build another try. Hopefully I can get to shadowdancer this time.
*awesome story of party doom*
What you needed..
...was your *own* cleric! :D
*awesome story of party doom*What you needed..
...was your *own* cleric! :D
Yeah, the party all made characters without really talking about what they were making.