Thanks to the new skill system, for classes that require mostly skill points a pre-req nearly any class can get into them.
Taking this in mind, a fighter can get into shadowdancer at 6th level fairly easily by just paying the skill ranks in stealth and perform (dance) as the feats themselves are not to problematic and are on the way to a spring attack/ whirlwind attack/ feat tree.
At 6th level, those skills become class skills with the awakening of his skill as a shadowdancer and he gets the class skill bonus on stealth.
With this in mind... I'm thinking the Hide in Plain Sight ability gives you a fighter that can brutally cut down a target (or two) from hiding and then hide again as the body falls.
Perhaps even give him training in unarmed strike/scorpion style to prevent foes from running away and eventually stunning blow. How frightening would that be?
How feasible is a fighter /shadowdancer?
What say the boards?
I've kind of pegged Shadowdancer as an NPC class myself. The class seriously suffers on the offensive front and seems primarily a defensive/ scouting type character.
It could cause mayhem tailing a party and tossing out the occasional spell or backstab at opportune moments but I don't see sticking with the class as a PC.
I've kind of pegged Shadowdancer as an NPC class myself. The class seriously suffers on the offensive front and seems primarily a defensive/ scouting type character.
It could cause mayhem tailing a party and tossing out the occasional spell or backstab at opportune moments but I don't see sticking with the class as a PC.
EDIT: I'd really only planned on a one or two level dip for Hide in Plain Sight and perhaps Darkvision. Then back into fighter.
The basic idea was a melee type that could disappear and attack his flat-footed foes maneuvering to pull off whirlwind attacks or spring attacks before disappearing again.
As part of the new skill system, the pre-requisite skill system also changed, for a non-class skill the number of ranks is doubled. So, a fighter can only get the shadowdancer prc at 10th level.
Sorry for the bad english...
As part of the new skill system, the pre-requisite skill system also changed, for a non-class skill the number of ranks is doubled. So, a fighter can only get the shadowdancer prc at 10th level.Citation needed.
(and requested)
Huh... apparently it's not in the PRD! The text is definitely in the book, but mine's not handy so I can't give a page number.
|
After checking the PFRD and my own copy I found nothing saying the number of ranks for a non-class skill is doubled.
All I found was this:
Unlike the core classes, characters must meet
specific requirements before they can take their first
level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the
requirements for a prestige class before gaining any
benefits of that level, that character cannot take that
prestige class. Characters that take levels in prestige classes
do not gain any favored class bonuses for those levels.
Doubling the levels would be counterintuitive and/or counterproductive. Paizo made a specific effort to remove cross-class skills; doubling the required ranks basically would be reinstating them in a clunky manner. It would also lead to strange questions: what if your fighter has a level of rogue as well? The character has things like Stealth as a class skill for 1 class level, so it's definitely a class skill, but not for the other 5 levels of fighter. While the answer is 'yes, Stealth is a class skill from hereon out', it's still kinda mucked-up.
Was it in beta, then removed?
Huh... apparently it's not in the PRD! The text is definitely in the book, but mine's not handy so I can't give a page number.
The rule was in the Beta referencing converted PrCs, I'm fairly certain it got pulled entirely in the final.
Yes in the Beta page 52 sidebar Designer Notes: prestige skills. Was not implented in the final. Thank goodness, it was needlessly complex and didn't stop min/max in the least. Besides most PrCs with skill requirements not on your class list are keyed to very different options and will likely offer very little to boost what the core class is good at.
Attacking from stealth doesn't seem so hot. First, unless you are sniping, you become visible when you attack. Now I'm not sure if you would still get the Ivisible combat bonuses... thinking not... but after combat starts they sure won't be flatfooted.
You know... it would have been better if HiPS just granted invisiblity as per the special ability while conditions were meet. Would haves saved a great deal of ruled related head aches, like using See Invisiblity or True Sight on some one using HiPS.
Yes in the Beta page 52 sidebar Designer Notes: prestige skills. Was not implented in the final. Thank goodness, it was needlessly complex and didn't stop min/max in the least. Besides most PrCs with skill requirements not on your class list are keyed to very different options and will likely offer very little to boost what the core class is good at.
Attacking from stealth doesn't seem so hot. First, unless you are sniping, you become visible when you attack. Now I'm not sure if you would still get the Ivisible combat bonuses... thinking not... but after combat starts they sure won't be flatfooted.
You know... it would have been better if HiPS just granted invisiblity as per the special ability while conditions were meet. Would haves saved a great deal of ruled related head aches, like using See Invisiblity or True Sight on some one using HiPS.
Well... if you are hidden, and the enemy is not aware of you then you attack, they have not acted, and would be at the very least flat-footed against you.
I kinda look at Hide In Plain Sight as being one step below invisibility. You are using a supernatural ability to hide where you would not normally be able to. You can still be perceived with a high enough perception check. Otherwise... to the enemy that does not see you you are effectively invisible even if they know you are there.
I've kind of pegged Shadowdancer as an NPC class myself. The class seriously suffers on the offensive front and seems primarily a defensive/ scouting type character.
The 3.5 Shadowdancer was for sure more of an NPC class, only useful for a PC for 2 lvls. The new Shadowdancer, I wouldn't judge the same way, especially for a Rogue based character. I think the class is definitely a viable choice for a PC given its new access to Rogue Talents and the Capstone ability at lvl 10. Plus the Summon Shadow ability gives them a permanent flanking partner.
EDIT: I'd really only planned on a one or two level dip for Hide in Plain Sight and perhaps Darkvision. Then back into fighter.
You are going to want Darkvision one way or another. If you are fighting in a situation where you can use HiPS (IE: In or around areas of dim light) your opponents are going to have concealment 20% at least from the dim light effect. Darkvision will allow you to not suffer the miss chance.
Also worth noting, if your character has a source of Sneak Attack, it will not work if their target has concealment because you are unable to exactly pinpoint their vital areas. So Darkvision is extra essential for rogue-ish characters. I can't remember for sure but I don't think you can get critical strikes if your opponent is under concealment either.
Attacking from stealth doesn't seem so hot. First, unless you are sniping, you become visible when you attack. Now I'm not sure if you would still get the Ivisible combat bonuses... thinking not... but after combat starts they sure won't be flatfooted.
If you were attacking from stealth you are unseen, unnoticed, invisible until the first attack. It would be the same as attacking from the Invisibility spell. Only the first attack would be made as from an invisible attacker, after that you are visible. Plus this ability would easily put you in position for a lot of surprise rounds which would leave your target flat-footed.
It would also give a Fighter the option of disappearing from combat at any time, maybe to heal up and start again, maybe just to get another attack with the bonus from being an unseen attacker.
You know... it would have been better if HiPS just granted invisiblity as per the special ability while conditions were meet. Would haves saved a great deal of ruled related head aches, like using See Invisiblity or True Sight on some one using HiPS.
Possibly yes, but it would have had to be worded very carefully or there would be just as many headaches. Personally I like it the way it is but a lot of people don’t understand it very well.
By RAW I don't think See Invisibility or True Sight would detect HiPS users. *I could see the argument for letting someone using True Seeing detect the (SU)HiPS users.* However, even then it would do nothing at all against (EX)HiPS users.
*NOTE: This is just my opinion, not based on rules anywhere: The interaction between an Antimagic Field and (SU)HiPS is my basis for this as possible RAI. If True Seeing lets you see through magical effects, and Antimagic Field ends (SU) and HiPS is a (SU) then (SU)HiPS is a magical effect and therefore True Seeing should work.
I kinda look at Hide In Plain Sight as being one step below invisibility. You are using a supernatural ability to hide where you would not normally be able to. You can still be perceived with a high enough perception check. Otherwise... to the enemy that does not see you you are effectively invisible even if they know you are there.
I agree you would be the same as being invisible, until you make your first attack. I actually think in almost every situation it is better than invisibility. You never run out of HiPS and the only two ways to beat it are a Perception check and an Antimagic Field with a possible third of True Seeing. If you have the (EX) version of the ability there is only one way to beat it and not many creatures or NPC's are going to have a Perception bonus as high as a stealth specialist will have his Stealth bonus.
Well... if you are hidden, and the enemy is not aware of you then you attack, they have not acted, and would be at the very least flat-footed against you.
That's the rub, that only works before the become aware of you the first time and before the have a a chance to act in that combat. Once combat is going the are no longer flat-footed.
HiPS is a great defenisve move because they have to find you again first. Or take a guess as to where you went. I would not say that it is a lesser ivisiblity as it does not get negated by See Ivis or True Seeing. In many ways it cam actually be harder to detect some using HiPS the actual spells.
*edit*
Darn finger typing takes to long for a simple message
I really think the dip into Shadowdancer for a Stealth/Dex based fighter would make for a very interesting and unique PC or NPC. It would definitely give you some options in combat as well as in any situations requiring a high level of stealth. Probably the type of Fighter you would find assigned to a Special Unit of some kind, sent to do tactical assaults.
Lokie wrote:
Well... if you are hidden, and the enemy is not aware of you then you attack, they have not acted, and would be at the very least flat-footed against you.That's the rub, that only works before the become aware of you the first time and before the have a a chance to act in that combat. Once combat is going the are no longer flat-footed.
But even after combat begins and they are no longer flat-footed, you can simply disappear again. If they don't make the Perception check you are as good as invisible to that opponent, and therefore would get the bonuses attached to attacking as such. It is the same as from an invisible attacker, you may know he is there, but you can't properly defend yourself if you can't see your attacker.
Lokie wrote:
Well... if you are hidden, and the enemy is not aware of you then you attack, they have not acted, and would be at the very least flat-footed against you.That's the rub, that only works before the become aware of you the first time and before the have a a chance to act in that combat. Once combat is going the are no longer flat-footed.
But even after combat begins and they are no longer flat-footed, you can simply disappear again. If they don't make the Perception check you are as good as invisible to that opponent, and therefore would get the bonuses attached to attacking as such. It is the same as from an invisible attacker, you may know he is there, but you can't properly defend yourself if you can't see your attacker.
Thats exactly what I was thinking.
Now... considering he is otherwise a straight up fighter he does not rely on sneak attack to do extra damage. As his main defense will popping in and out of hiding, I'd give my fighter focus with a two-handed weapon such as a greatsword or falchion. Also, as he is attacking as invisible, I'd use the fact that the target is easier to hit and mix in power attacks. Even if all I'm doing is making a single attack and then hiding again, this could be devastating.
Now here is the thing... hiding does not usually take an action on its own. HiPS is just hiding without several limiters. Could a fighter with HiPS hide during a spring attack?
In the description of HiPS it says it allows you to use Stealth with its new set of circumstances. So using Stealth is the action required and Stealth is a non-action as part of a movement. Unless you are sniping but that is a totally different thing. It is not 100% clear to me if Spring Attack would let you use Stealth twice in the same turn or if you would still only be able to use it once. Stealth is used as part of a movement, and there are certainly two distinct movements during a spring attack, so I you would be able to use Stealth during both movements.
The reason I say I am not 100% sure is that while there are two movements there is still only one move action. But using Stealth is part of a movement not a move action. Thanks to Dorje Sylas for pointing that out to me.
The attack would look something like this: Move to close distance to the opponent while using Stealth. Attack the opponent from stealth. Move away from your opponent again using Stealth.
In the description of HiPS it says it allows you to use Stealth with its new set of circumstances. So using Stealth is the action required and Stealth is a non-action as part of a movement. Unless you are sniping but that is a totally different thing. It is not 100% clear to me if Spring Attack would let you use Stealth twice in the same turn or if you would still only be able to use it once. Stealth is used as part of a movement, and there are certainly two distinct movements during a spring attack, so I you would be able to use Stealth during both movements.
The reason I say I am not 100% sure is that while there are two movements there is still only one move action. But using Stealth is part of a movement not a move action. Thanks to Dorje Sylas for pointing that out to me.
The attack would look something like this: Move to close distance to the opponent while using Stealth. Attack the opponent from stealth. Move away from your opponent again using Stealth.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the link! :)
So... currently playing a first level human fighter in a game already. Who already have Dodge.
All I need is to focus my skill points for the next 4 levels on Stealth 5, dance 2, combat reflexes and mobility.
I'll let you all know how the character works out for me.
Good, because you've now got me thinking about a Druid Assassin, even a whole sect of Druid Assassins. My current and future players will likely come to hate you for starting me down this kind of re-classed thinking.
I'll let you all know how the character works out for me.
Fighter/Shadowdancer sounds interesting. if your DM allows it you might look at taking one of the feats in the ToB to get the Assassins Stance which will give you 2d6 Sneak Attack. Would add a small edge to your attack from the shadows, since if you use that tactic a lot you will only be getting Standard Action attacks instead of Full Attack Actions. I think you have to be around lvl 14 before you worry about that though.
Good, because you've now got me thinking about a Druid Assassin, even a whole sect of Druid Assassins. My current and future players will likely come to hate you for starting me down this kind of re-classed thinking.
NE Druid Assassins, killing unsuspecting hikers to gain entrance into the Druid/Assassin Circle. Nice story for a group of bad guys. I think they could get into the Assassin class even under the 3.5 system though. The only problem would have been the Disguise requirement, but they still could take it as a cross class skill and enter the PrC, it would just take longer than it does under PF rules.
If I ever get to play in a Pathfinder game I would love to try a Paladin/Shadowdancer.
There is also a PrC, I think in Complete Devine, that gets a version of HiPS that works in the light. It is like the opposite of a Shadowdancer. That would be a cool twist for a Paladin too. Or go Shadowdancer with some Grey Guard, or Grey Hand or whatever they are called. The Paladin PrC that has a slightly less stringent code of conduct and have a little bit of a "The end justifies the means, as long as I don't go too overboard" type mentality/code.
Good, because you've now got me thinking about a Druid Assassin, even a whole sect of Druid Assassins. My current and future players will likely come to hate you for starting me down this kind of re-classed thinking.
LOL!
Tell them that Lokie sends his regards.
I'll let you all know how the character works out for me.Fighter/Shadowdancer sounds interesting. if your DM allows it you might look at taking one of the feats in the ToB to get the Assassins Stance which will give you 2d6 Sneak Attack. Would add a small edge to your attack from the shadows, since if you use that tactic a lot you will only be getting Standard Action attacks instead of Full Attack Actions. I think you have to be around lvl 14 before you worry about that though.
*SNIP*
Worth some thought. It'd take TWO feats to do it. I'd need to pick up Martial Study and a Shadow Hand Maneuver first and then pick up Martial Stance. I'd be at half initiator level, so I couldn't pick up the assassin's stance till around 10th level. (I believe Assassin's Stance is 3rd level. So twice required initiator level of 5th.)
My current DM is sort of a "core books" guy though. He may feel he wants to just stick with the PRPG and Golarion campaign setting stuff. At least Shadowdancer is in the PRPG.
Right now I'm running my Human Fighter (Gregor) as "sword and board". I need to look at upgrading to a Two-Handed Sword to make up (damage wise) for lack of multiple attacks. I'll go ahead and pick up the whole Whirlwind Attack feat tree. I already have Power Attack so Cleave would also be a good choice to give me more attacks on my attacking from stealth standard action.
I haven't tried to rebuild him in PRPG format yet, but my 'Dalesman' avatar is based on a human fighter/rogue/shadowdancer build - and he turned out to be a pretty solid character (totally by accident too, as I whipped him together last-minute for a campaign I joined). :)
He was the scout ahead guy for his party, but he could hold his ground in a fight quite nicely too. Had a very 'guerrilla fighter' feel to him.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Yes in the Beta page 52 sidebar Designer Notes: prestige skills. Was not implented in the final. Thank goodness, it was needlessly complex and didn't stop min/max in the least. Besides most PrCs with skill requirements not on your class list are keyed to very different options and will likely offer very little to boost what the core class is good at.
Attacking from stealth doesn't seem so hot. First, unless you are sniping, you become visible when you attack. Now I'm not sure if you would still get the Ivisible combat bonuses... thinking not... but after combat starts they sure won't be flatfooted.
You know... it would have been better if HiPS just granted invisiblity as per the special ability while conditions were meet. Would haves saved a great deal of ruled related head aches, like using See Invisiblity or True Sight on some one using HiPS.
Well... if you are hidden, and the enemy is not aware of you then you attack, they have not acted, and would be at the very least flat-footed against you.
I kinda look at Hide In Plain Sight as being one step below invisibility. You are using a supernatural ability to hide where you would not normally be able to. You can still be perceived with a high enough perception check. Otherwise... to the enemy that does not see you you are effectively invisible even if they know you are there.
I Kinda look at HIPS as one step above invisibility, in that you can't just drink a potion and solve the problem. Combine stealth AND invisibility, and you can hide from both the ranger and the wizard. Wizard can see through the invisibility but can't meet your overcome stealth check. Ranger can make perception checks but can't see invisible. HIPS is a nice non-magic invisibility. Now I agree with Dennis in that shadowdancers don't have much offense. If you get into it at 6th level I think the magic powers and the shadow draining str off enemies will help in that department. If you waited til later to take it I don't think the magic specials would be potent enough to do much, greater shadow conjuration is quite a bit stronger than the lesser version.
*SNIP*
Now I agree with Dennis in that shadowdancers don't have much offense. If you get into it at 6th level I think the magic powers and the shadow draining str off enemies will help in that department. If you waited til later to take it I don't...
Normally Shadowdancer's might not have much offence , but you combine with a fighter specialized in heavy hitting...
For example...
With the elite array, by 8th level you can easily have a human fighter 6/shadowdancer 2 with around a 20 STR (assuming base 15 str, +3 racial/level mod, and +2 STR gauntlets), Weapon Focus (two-handed sword), Weapon Spec. (two-handed sword), two-handed power attack for +9 damage, and Weapon Training in blades.
With a basic +1 Great Sword ,before any additional enhancement, you'd be dealing 2d6 +18 (20-30) damage. On a crit. you could possibly cause a fort. save vs. massive damage.
Nothing huge... but a minimum 20 damage per is still ouchy.
*SNIP*
Now I agree with Dennis in that shadowdancers don't have much offense. If you get into it at 6th level I think the magic powers and the shadow draining str off enemies will help in that department. If you waited til later to take it I don't...Normally Shadowdancer's might not have much offence , but you combine with a fighter specialized in heavy hitting...
For example...
With the elite array, by 8th level you can easily have a human fighter 6/shadowdancer 2 with around a 20 STR (assuming base 15 str, +3 racial/level mod, and +2 STR gauntlets), Weapon Focus (two-handed sword), Weapon Spec. (two-handed sword), two-handed power attack for +9 damage, and Weapon Training in blades.
With a basic +1 Great Sword ,before any additional enhancement, you'd be dealing 2d6 +18 (20-30) damage. On a crit. you could possibly cause a fort. save vs. massive damage.
Nothing huge... but a minimum 20 damage per is still ouchy.
I agree. I think the point was that they don't have much offensive in their class. Anyone with 20 str and a greatsword can do that. Clerics can do it better. What I was getting at is if you play a shadowdancer from 6-15 your shadowdancer powers scale pretty good with other powers characters are getting. If you play one from 11-20, I think it's going to be pretty weak. If combat isn't your thing though and you want a stealthy character who isn't flubbed by one bad stealth roll or one great perception check, shadowdancer is awesome, because you just try again while being observed.
Loki, it sounds like you have your character's future pretty well mapped out but I would one possible detour that could advance your sneak abilities. This is just a simple breakdown of what this detour would add to what you would already be getting with the 2 lvl dip into Shadowdancer.
2 lvls in Rogue = 1d6 SA / Trapfinding / A bunch of new Class Skills / Rogue Talent (I would take Fast Stealth).
1 extra lvl in Shadowdancer (IE: 3 lvl dip) = A second Rogue Talent (I would hit up Bleeding Attack) / Summon Shadow (Gives you a permanent flanking buddy)
I am not sure if it would really help your character concept or not. You would gain a few things, but your BAB will suffer if you dip into both Rogue and SD. Just a thought though.
Loki, it sounds like you have your character's future pretty well mapped out but I would one possible detour that could advance your sneak abilities. This is just a simple breakdown of what this detour would add to what you would already be getting with the 2 lvl dip into Shadowdancer.
2 lvls in Rogue = 1d6 SA / Trapfinding / A bunch of new Class Skills / Rogue Talent (I would take Fast Stealth).
1 extra lvl in Shadowdancer (IE: 3 lvl dip) = A second Rogue Talent (I would hit up Bleeding Attack) / Summon Shadow (Gives you a permanent flanking buddy)
I am not sure if it would really help your character concept or not. You would gain a few things, but your BAB will suffer if you dip into both Rogue and SD. Just a thought though.
I only really have things planned out to about 8th level in concept. The DM is running the Council of Thieves AP on slow progression, but will be "padding" the adventure to keep us up to spec. level wise. So depending on how things shape up (I purposefully have not read the first AP) the character will evolve to fit the campaign.
For those interested:
The character is essentially going to be as close to a "true neutral" mercenary type as I can get him. Once he accepts a job he'll do what he needs to complete the job. He is not bloodthirsty but will kill without hesitation when attacked. Brute force with little thought on morality but not in excess. So the character will be stealthy and do it well when needed. Focus will be place on being able to chop down his enemies cleanly with as much efficiency as possible when required. (one hit one kill when possible)
That said I got some interesting rolls and his stats are thus after racial modification - STR 18, Dex 15, Con 15, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 7
I'll focus on pumping his Strength score as high as I can. Other than that, I play off of his low charisma by speaking in a bland monotone sort of voice and being a little abrupt. (Trying to make his lack of personality... his personality) I try to show his low wisdom by keeping him as non-contemplative as possible.
As for feats, I picked up Dodge, Power Attack, and Weapon Focus (Longsword). I picked up Armor Expert and Rich Parents as PF character traits.
Keeping with his mercenary outlook for his equipment... the 900 gp from the Rich Parents trait mostly went to a MW Longsword and MW Chain Shirt. He also carries a Heavy Shield and a Punching Dagger as well as assorted traveling gear.The punching dagger is specifically for use in grapples or as a coup-de-grace weapon.
I too just noticed this. I am thinking about playing a fighter/shadowdancer the next time I get a chance.
Anyone got any ideas on some interesting builds?
One thing I have been thinking about is the shadow conjuration and possible mounted combat builds.
Although, there needs to be some feats expanding the class abilities past 10 levels. You have 5 levels, at least, leading up to this, and 5 levels possible after. Your abilities cap out at level 15, and then they are decent, but they go down hill quickly, and were not that effective to start.
Honestly I would go to dancer 4.
You already lost the BAB at level 1, you don't do so again until level 5 so you keep your fighting ability:
You gain the shadow Jump feature which means you have a means to get places quickly without having to physically move there, and you gain the shadow call feature. Since this can mimic any conjuration (creation or summoning) spell under 3rd level I'm sure you'll always find something to use it on (even if just mage armor while attacked during the middle of the night).
You also gain the better skill points for another level and it doesn't interfere with your save progression as a fighter either (level 16 gives you +10, +5, +5).
So to sum up:
You stay at the +19 BAB you would have for 3 levels of shadowdancer.
You gain shadow jump and shadow call, and 3 more skill points (assuming your favored class bonus for fighter went to skills).
You DO lose one level in weapon training... but I would consider that a fair trade for the shadow jump alone.
Good points Abraham!
Sadly... the game in which poor Gregor was in ended abruptly before I could progress him into Shadowdancer. I'd love to hear how it works out!
Personally, I love the flavor of the shadowdancer. I would go fighter 5/Shadowdancer 10. Then talk to my GM about the following levels after that. What to do with it as far as build goes is another matter.
I was thinking about it, and maybe 1 Barbarian/4 Fighter/10 Shadow Dancer could be nice. Yeah you lose +3 to hit, but you gain a lot, like improved evasion and uncanny dodge, and a long list of other abilities. The barbarian 1 is nice because you get the better hitpoints, skill points, and the +10 movement, while you do lose weapon training, you can make up for that in rage, and you can move in medium armor with full speed.
I was thinking about it, and maybe 1 Barbarian/4 Fighter/10 Shadow Dancer could be nice. Yeah you lose +3 to hit, but you gain a lot, like improved evasion and uncanny dodge, and a long list of other abilities. The barbarian 1 is nice because you get the better hitpoints, skill points, and the +10 movement, while you do lose weapon training, you can make up for that in rage, and you can move in medium armor with full speed.
I think barbarian is a viable choice in main places for multiclassing into a prestige class. IMO if you want a more frontliner EK with full 9th level spell progression I would suggest Barbarian over fighter due to the free stacking of rage with other strength enhancers -- you don't even need the rage active all the time, only on the rounds you want a more effective melee attack (like when you are full attacking) the fatigue is less of an issue since you are probably going to be casting spells on the other rounds. The movement helps, and the likelihood that you actually want heavy armor is slim.
Same applies in general to the shadowdancer to me.
With a 25 pt buy the best I could come up with is this, any ideas would be great.
Race: Elf
Str: 12
Dex: 18+2=20
Con: 14-2=12
Int: 11+2=13
Wis: 8
Cha: 12
Barbarian 2/Fighter 3/Shadowdancer 10
Bonus: Elven Curve Blade
1st- Weapon Finesse
3rd- Power Attack
Fighter 1- Dodge
Fighter 2- Mobility
5th- Combat Reflexes
7th- Spring Attack
9th- Improved Critical
11th- Lunge
13th- Combat Expertise
15th- Whirlwind Attack
I would discuss and ask the GM about a feat for some sort of trade to allow medium armor with evasion.
Otherwise I would get an evasion ring, and wear mithral full plate. I would be sure to get a +2 strength item, and rage as needed for extra damage with attacks.
I think Fighter/Shadowdancer can be quite a good mix. I was actually thinking of making an NPC as a Fighter5/Shadowdancer10/Assassin5. Sice the Assassin can't cast spells anymore, it makes a good substitute with the shadow jump for him to pop in and out on targets, and a shadow servant is always good for a distraction.
The only downside to a shadowdancer/fighter is that evasion only works with light armor. This can be solved by 2 ways. With a high dex mithral breastplate is the most-likely option. A secondary option for the ones with a not so high dex is an evasion ring. You still get improved evasion, and you can wear heavy armor, but one of your abilities is dependent on a magic item. This isn't a vital ability though.
Another downside as for builds, is the high dex and armor. As you get higher and higher dex, probably due to weapon finesse, you find yourself wearing less and less armor. Which is irritating to say the least, and in higher levels you are looking at bracers of armor. This also bring the question of usefulness. You need a way to deal damage or some trike right?
I have been exploring builds, with the little inspiration I get, for different combat shadowdancers.
The best combinations I found is ether Barb 2/Fighter 3 or straight fighter 5.
The strength and con bonus helps with the stat distribution, as a high dex is usually the goal. But you are left lacking when dealing with dealing damage.
The ultimate question is, what can you do with a shadowdancer, where you take a full BAB class getting into it.
In any case Mithral Breastplate is probably the armor of choice. With a few light armor limitations in their abilities and a high dex you can probably get the full use out of your +6 dex mod max.
Looking at things, the best option I can think of is to go like this:
Go Human, TWF dual rapiers, and focusing on criticals. Ultimately you want whirlwind attack with lung. So you can secretly pop into a crowd and get as many as you can flat footed with a whirlwind attack. This however will take a lot of levels and feats. Key thing though is to not worry about taking anything past normal TWF feat.
I really and torn between Barb 2/Fighter 3.
On one hand you get +10ft movement and rage with a power, the other you get weapon specialization and weapon training.
In the end if your going THF Barb 2/Fighter 3 is the best, but if you are going TWF Fighter 5 is.
But I really like the THF idea, especially with the +10ft movement, but I just don't know what to do with the build as for feats to keep them useful.
I'm currently playing a Paladin 5/Shadowdancer 4 named Wruce Bayne. :P
I'm currently playing a Paladin 5/Shadowdancer 4 named Wruce Bayne. :P
Cool, that probably works out really well. TWF build?
As for the dex problem...
By level 8 if you have a +4 stat item you are faced with a difficult decision. You have surpassed the max dex limits of a mithral chain shirt.
however you would need to start with a 20 dex for this to be a problem this soon.
I'm currently playing a Paladin 5/Shadowdancer 4 named Wruce Bayne. :PCool, that probably works out really well. TWF build?
More like a Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack/Vital Strike build. He springs out of the shadows and nails his victims or hits several at once when surrounded.
More like a Spring Attack/Whirlwind Attack/Vital Strike build. He springs out of the shadows and nails his victims or hits several at once when surrounded.I'm currently playing a Paladin 5/Shadowdancer 4 named Wruce Bayne. :PCool, that probably works out really well. TWF build?
Is Vital Strike really all that good? I guess if you spring attack.
What happens if you critical?
Vital does not stack with whirlwind though right?
Great build ideas posted here.
I'd say the only thing about playing a Shadowdancer that doesn't have Rogue levels is that you miss out on taking the Rogue talent Fast Stealth, which synergizes quite beautifully with HiPS.
But if you're doing a mobile fighter build, it can be a great way to go. You're a fighter who can Dimension Door and summon your own flanking partner. Not bad at all.
Is Vital Strike really all that good?
Yes, it gives fighter types versatility unseen in previous editions.
I guess if you spring attack.
Or when you use Shot on the Run, or snipe, or you are unable to make a full attack, or...it has plenty of uses that make it an excellent choice.
What happens if you critical?
Then you multiply the base weapon damage. The bonus dice of damage from the vital strike line are NOT multiplied.
Vital does not stack with whirlwind though right?
It does not, unfortunately. Vital Strike only applies when you make a single attack as a standard action.