Ai N. Stein's page

In my view, the fact that the creature attempting the overrun or trip has 4 legs doesn't cancel out the fact that the creature being overrun or tripped also has 4 legs.

The added stability makes it tougher for someone to trip you. That doesn't necessarily translate into having a better chance of tripping someone else.

Although there are cases in the rules where an additional limb or appendage does grant bonuses to CMB, they are explicitly stated in a creature's description and those cases usually apply to grappling, not overrun or tripping attempts.

Thank you very much, although the rules/ruling on this particular subject are (I feel) kinda suck-y. Perhaps it would have been better to say "The target adds +2 DC for each additional leg more than the attacker he has, and -2 for each leg less." That would make sense to me. Or "The target adds +2 DC for each leg up he has..." XD

It says on both of these that "If the target has more than two legs,
add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each
additional leg it has." for both rules on page 201 of the core Pathfinder book.
Situation: A horse trying to overrun or trip another horse.
Would the horse attempting the combat maneuver effectively be at a -4 penalty, or would the fact that both of them have 4 legs cancel out? It would make sense to me in this particular instance that overrunning horse to horse would be without penalty, and the trip with, but I would like an official ruling on the subject please. There is a character build at stake here.

Thanks guys, just wanted to make sure I was reading everything properly. I've been wanting them to fix his for god knows how long, thank god they finally did. Thanks again for your help.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, or other bonuses. The bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Does this mean when your intelligence modifier goes up by 1, you get a number of skill points equal to your hit dice?

Does this apply to ability score boosts acquired through leveling?

I know that this wasn't the case in the past, but it would be nice if they fixed one of the major flaws in the system. It's MUCH easier to keep track of skill points (if they changed it) this new way.

The only thing is, I can't seem to find another rule relating to this. I've looked in the "Getting Started" and "Skills" chapters with a fine tooth comb, but I can't find a relevant rule. HELP!

Okay, the major thing I would like to see in action from a fighter type character is a Duelist that gets off a No Retreat/Greater Trip Combo. It's like buffing yourself as a fighter class because of the +4 to hit when the enemy is prone. If you were to have a Two-Weapon Rogue in your party, he would love you. The Whirlwind Attack on top of this would be a little on the ridiculous side especially with lunge. -2 to AC? When you're not going to to be attacked by at least half the battlefield? Deal! I'll take it!

Add to that the Shadow Dancer stuff and you've got a tricky frontline fighter that can level half the monsters on the playing field without taking a lot of damage. It's truly insane if it would work like I think it would.

Honestly the ways that rogues can quickly step up the combat: Rogue talents gained at every even level, laying traps for enemies when you see them coming (Traps that you can arm, disarm, then arm again are amazing for this), Improved Initiative as a feat, Making sure your battle tactics are good as far as flanking and the like, use magic device as a skill provides a #$%^-ton of options especially with scrolls (they are really cheap), etc., etc. Let me know how that sits, and try sticking with a pure rogue, it's worth it in PF.

Bard is very good for party buffs, no mistake. If the party already has a cleric, go Bard.

Seconded, and

Jason Ellis 350 wrote:

Bard is better if you have more than 4 in the party, if you have only 3 I'd say cleric or oracle. The larger the party the more the scales will tilt towards the bard.

Agreed, the bard is THE 5th wheel character in the party.

Seconded, and Thanks for the Spinal Tap, Ogre.

Remember that Bards are proficient with whips and spears so they *can* sit behind your front line and do a little damage themselves.

Okay weird suggestion but it could work:
Human, Dex +2, Fighter for five levels, feats of Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, and Improved Initiative. Dip Shadowdancer for 4 levels for HiPS, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (You've got a high Dex, might as well use it), Darkvision, Rogue Talent (namely "Fast Stealth"), Summon Shadow, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, and Shadow Jump. Meanwhile picking up Improved Disarm and Whirlwind Attack. Then go Duelist for 10 levels (You've already got the Perform from the Prerequisite for the Shadowdancer). And Fighter at 20th. Pick up Improved and Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, Agile Maneuvers, Lunge, and one of these two depending on play style {Vital Strike, Wind Stance}.

BTW: Light Weapons Training might be a good choice for weapon finesse and sickles are trip weapons. You could also do a Whip Exotic Weapon Proficiency since it is both a trip and disarm weapon, and in combination with Lunge since it's a reach weapon it could get particularly deadly especially if you take a position right behind another front-line fighter. Similarly a Spiked Chain could do the same thing, but these are not "light or one-handed piercing weapons." Switching back and forth depending on the scenario may be the best bet for benefit since you will have the upper hand of preparation, but just going with a good rapier might be your best bet.

Let me know what you guys think of this.

One major thing I would put forth is that if you are thinking about playing a straight 11th level Paly: Aura of Justice allows your ENITRE GROUP (assuming they are within 10 feet of you) to bypass the target's Damage reduction, get better to hit rolls, AND to A LOT more damage (especially if your rogue is a two weapon fighter). The more enemies you take down like that, the less healing you have to do with Lay on Hands (By the way: The new Mercy system kicks some serious buttocks). If you were to build a strictly Mercy-based Human Paladin, you can achieve all Mercies at 19th level with Endurance and Diehard at First Level. It's Pretty Epic.
Additionally, there is no such thing as Lawful Stupid, just stupid players, so I don't want to hear any of that !@#$^% here. There are a lot of different ways to play a Lawful Good character, even if it is just an act to appease your God/Church (Thank you for that enlightenment Irenic).

I would also like to mention that I REALLY enjoyed, as both a player and a GM, the Skill Tricks in Complete Scoundrel (In fact EVERYTHING in Complete Scoundrel) in addition to Books of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds--as I mentioned before. Sorry if these suggestions are not Third Party, I've gotten rid of almost all of my 3.5 books now that Pathfinder came out: DAMN YOU JASON BUHLMAN!!!!!! <<shaky fist of doom at the sky>>
Sword and Fist from 3.0 had some really cool stuff in it as well, along with Complete Warrior (3.5). Complete Divine had a great idea of expanding the Gods list in addition to the Domain spells and abilities (That is, additional Domains: In particular I really like the Purification Domain).

The important thing I would like to mention is that, as both a player and a GM, it would be awesome if the first couple of expansion books to come out were well rounded as far as the types of things they had in them (e.g.: feats for all classes, spells for every caster, kits for each class, et cetera, et cetera). That way no one gets WAY too overpowered in comparison to the rest of the party: if this could be taken into account it would be much appreciated.

We've been having more problems with the books coming to us misprinted than anything, to be perfectly honest (extra sets of certain pages, and missing others). But the Core book, DMG, and the Bestiary are starting to "crack" in the glue and the covers are starting to wrap. The most frustrating thing is that we treat these books like hallowed relics of a bygone age. Slight exaggeration, but my point, I believe, is made. Perhaps in the future PAIZO could print the books on stainless steel, or perhaps adamantine. ;)

Here, Here, Mirror, Mirror.

Additionally, I know I've been a hard-ass before and said basically that everyone had to stick with their character or switch the table they played at. I can be a @#$^% sometimes though.

LOL!!!!!!! OMG! ROFLCOPTER!!!! Thank you for the old school Oregon Trail reference!

Remember this: a raging barbarian can carry a pretty massive load, so use the buddy system when looting! You pack, he carries!

I can't remember if they are 3rd party or not, but Books of Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness were always a favorite of my groups.

As ZRobs GM... I would just like to put in that perhaps this was a question best asked before taking the feat and playing with it for months now. I will counter with the obvious question in my mind which is why you took a feat you did not want? I am not a min/max or munchkin DM, I award more XP for character development and story then combat overall and LOVE to see my players take feats and skills because they want it to be part of their history (as I assumed was the case with zrob) or because it fits their character concept. I know I would feel cooler walking around the local wizard clubhouse with a psudodragon on my shoulder instead of a bad hovering about me. I believe there are MANY rules in D&D and now Pathfinder that don't completely make sense... but that doesn't mean everyone's goal has to be to eek out the last little dregs of bonuses. Improved familiar is there for the people who want it, which obviously some of you do. Plus I would argue that having spent a feat on that familiar means that you are going to damn well use it, care for it and not tend to forget its around... so you will overall see a bigger benefit anyway. That's my more then 2 cents.

547. Your body seems ungraceful, chaotic, and lurching like you are walking in slow motion, but it is sped up.

548. Your movements seem to always be you wading through a pile of bodies and you leave a temporary trail of blood for 1d3 rounds after you move from any given spot.

549. Your body contantly vibrates and shakes uncontrolably, in minor fashion in everyday life (still noticeable) but anything that induces an adreniline rush amplifies this (combat, reflex save, the right skill check, etc.), but as you are used to it, it has no effect on gameplay.

550. You contantly look like you are in excrutiating pain and are favoring/clutching a random portion of your body even though nothing hurts.

That's all I got, hope none of them are repeats.

I have noticed through the course of playtesting the beta and playing almost all the different classes, that it almost seems like you need a different setup for each of the classes in order for the sheet to be efficient and the monks seem to be the worst. Using different stuff where everyone else uses the same thing and a lot of general crud that ends up destroying the fabric of the character sheet when you try to erase things b/c you screwed up and got it all wrong.

Sorry, just had an episode were I tore the paper in half with the eraser...

Okay the cheap-skate arguement for this is that that's the way it's always been. I personally think that it is the eventuallity of divine spells being cheaper than arcane spells because the arcane casters just have a bigger spell selection (if my memory serves me correctly). Now as far as in game goes: let us, for arguements sake, say that you are a divine caster. Would you choose to worship a god that bankrupts an entire population (probably equivelant to about a modern suburb) in order to cast a spell that may only benefit one person (sorry, I was assuming you were good or, at least neutral)?
On the other hand, an arcane caster finds the components to cast spells in the old ways. From the times when there were no humans, when resources were given to those in power and only to them so they would rule supreme over other races that were battling them. These resources now cost a lot of money.
It makes sense to me, but I understand what you are saying.

Hokay, so, I have to chime in on zis von ya? YA!
Bards not only shine in MASSIVE combat, but in Taverns and Towns. Along with the rogue, a LOT can be done in town with the two of them. The Bard is essentially the GIANT ASS DISTRACTION that everybody pays attention to whilst the Rogue goes to work. Not to mention opening up a plethera of roleplaying opportunities while in the tavern itself. Remember that this class specifically hangs out around taverns (which is the basis of the bardic knowledge ability) and INTERACTS WITH DAMN NEAR EVERYBODY THAT WALKS IN!!!

In a 4 player set-up, with the set-up in pathfinder the way it is, and you were using a bard the other three I would suggest would be: Rogue, Barbarian/Monk (Monk would be moreso), and Ranger (Archery). At that point you have a Stealth based, quick moving unit where your frontline fighter can heal himself at higher levels (the reason for using the monk more was because he is harder to hit, with more skill based stuff, and a variety of "I gotta get out of this #$@%" abilities, but with the barbarian you are less likely to have opposing alignment issues--and barbarians are fun).
Another set-up I like is going Rogue, Rogue, Wizard, and Bard. The rogues do a FREAKY amount of damage to enemies now that the sneak attack ability has been tweeked that providing a flanking bonus to each other on top of potential grease which has the potential of making enemies fall...It kinda of turns rediculous when you consider the fact that two two-weapon rogues can take down most things of their level in one set of attacks (multiply the sneak attack damage by 4: 1d6 becomes 4d6, 2d6 becomes 8d6, 3d6 becomes 12d6, etc. etc. which becomes rediculous when the rogues get multiple attacks), when the heat gets too big, that's when the wizard steps in: a well place fireball, ice storm, etc. for the masses and slay living and the like for single targets. The point of this setup is to kill anything that comes within reach, not to just stop it, but stop it DEAD. The part the bard plays is buff spells for the rogues and having a bag of tricks up his sleeve that most classes can't boast on top of being a general support caster that can call on his entire spell list should any situation arise.

I see a lot of people missing the chartuese halfing, the thing I miss the most is the port-o-potty elf.

I see what people are saying about the favored enemy and the simplification of the types. I have worked with my group of players and developed something of a fix and there are 3 ways you can go with this.
1) Alignment based favored enemies (Rangers ARE divine casters after all)
2) Studying the enemy for 1 round gives you the abilities (this includes surprise actions--which I found works well in small stealth based groups were they can get the drop on enemies) to the enemies that you study during that round (basically pick a race out of the enemies you see and apply the biggest bonus you would be able to, to them).
3) Make the favored enemy feature like that of a non-spontaneous caster and memorize a certain number of races in a day, each one with ranking so you can get the bonuses correct.
This is just what we came up with.

I am just going to say that the single best thing about the gameplay of monks is that NOT MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, you are ALWAYS ARMED. Your DM can look at you and say anything except your dead, unconcious, blah, blah, blah and you still have your weapons on you. In order to be disarmed you have to be DIS-ARMED. If you are bound, escape artist/maneuver training/other feats can help you out. Monk allows for escape when it's just not possible.

Just remember: Monk AC, Monk Wis bonus to AC, Ki pool bonus to AC (+4), Dex bonus to AC, Dodge, Fighting Defensively, and Combat Expertise all stack into touch attack AC. Not to mention if you have a deflection bonus...It gets kind of ridiculous when you build a monk to be survivable. Especially when the only other classes you have in your party are rogues and mages. Just send the monk in behind enemy lines, AC up, and let your rogues go to work with the flanking bonuses. You may have more attacks per round than 1 rogue does, but you get 2 in the same party and they both do the 2 weapon fighting feats, chances are they will deal more damage (especially at high level) than you ever thought of doing.

Remember you can ALWAYS lower your own spell resistance at will (at least that was the case in 3.5), which means your allies can still effect you with spells--assuming you want them to.

Maybe Throwing and Returning? LOL!!!
"This amulet will boomerang your fists!!!!"

As far as the dimention door ability, it pales in comparison to the Empty Body ability. Not only do you limit the mage's casting ability while you are etherial (can only use abjuration spells, if I remember correctly, to hit something etherial), but you can move in ANY DIRECTION without penalty (again, if i remember correctly) which means a monk could activate boots of haste, pop into etherial, and make a charging gapple attack in which he pops out of etherial just as he hits the mage (see Jumper for details ;P).

I guess the two that I think are massively under represented are monkey and pa kua: they both involve "tumbling" around your opponent in VERY close proximity and catching your opponent off guard because of it. There is a fair amount of "sensory" training involved in the pa kua forms (not going to go into it: it would literally take multiple books to accurately describe what exactly it is you are doing, and it's easier to show anyway) where, when done correctly, it seems to your opponent you have simply teleported behind them, and it even works in hallways. Which is why I say that Spring Attack is not really accurate for it, and it doesn't work against multiple opponents the way pa kua and monkey do. It would be different if it was still as easy for monks to pull off tumbling through and around opponents as it used to be, but Pathfinder made it MUCH harder.

Majuba:
I was trying to go more along the lines of the actual styles "unseen eye" is not a real style: monkey, crane, mantis, eagle, northern fist, southern fist, tai chi, golden snake, pa kua, hsing i...these are all styles. Additionally, it would be nice to include some additional tables for random effects for the monk since most blows strike at pretty severe pressure points.

In reference to my previous post where I went through a lot of style basics with you guys; I think I just had what Einstein died from--a stroke of genius. If someone were to say give up the bonus feats that a monk gets, you would be able to insert the style they are trained in. That is to say that you would have a very small, but very powerful feat list (with some specialized ones included) that is individualized for each style (once selected you can't go back). Is there any feedback on this idea you guys? Feel free to email me: samauri.jack@gmail.com

I understand that about the flurry of blows, it is a touchy subject. I was just wondering since in the pathfinder campaign setting they have different monks with different weapon specialties.

Does anyone know if they added any new weapons to the "flurry of blows" list, and does anyone know what they added as far as the bonus feats for monk?

MONKS don't have teleport object.

Quite true, let's move on.

Again we are talking about a realm were things can be enchanted to be impervious to particular (pardon the pun) types of damage, in addition if you want it to be electrically charged all you need is a good lightning bolt or call lightning spell involved in shocking/shocking burst weapons. As far as the entrance of these particles, just wait until you have everything loaded before you create the bottom portal--everything will fall straight down. On top of that, I have a hard time believing that in a sealed environment where there is, in effect, no ground to stop it from succoumbing to the planets gravity entirely, that any atmosphereic "pressure" would build up since there is nothing to give it resistance (in eventuality). As far as accounting for all gravitational pulls on the tower itself, I offer you: the plumb-bob. Shows what is effectively straight down according to all gravitational pulls using only a string and a weight. Any further nay-saying you would like me to counter, or is one of my major "monsters" in game legitimate (she uses rods of teleport object)?

Kuma:
Terminal velocity is a product of wind/air resistance versus the surface area of the object, if there is no air in the tower, there is no resistance. Also, in eventuality, if you were to have a contained environment like that it would act as a particle accelerator would, with gravity being the only power source required. Even if you did have air in the tower, it would start moving at the same rate that the pebbles/rocks are, meaning constant acceleration of everything in the tower, meaning a constantly accelerating wind tunnel with shotgun shot in it.

As far as the stunning scenario:
The whirlwind attack supplies one attack that has the potential of hitting all opponents in your "engaged" area, according to the way the rule reads, as ruled by 5 independant gamers and 2 DM's without influence--all of whom are rules jockeys. If there is some additional material other than the beta that I'm not seeing please let me know (possible FAQ that I didn't find)

So, let me get this straight: if a hasted monk were to leap into a pack of enemies and he had a Ki Focus +4 Spiked Chain and do a whirlwind attack with stunning when he had downed a potion of True Stike the round before--he would not only hit everybody in a 10 foot radius but get a probable chance to stun them as well!?!?!? The way whirlwind attack reads it's only one attack in the beta. It's a freaking walking, reusable stun grenade. If you do end up being able to cause the exhausted state through stun, you could wait until just before his action to do all of this, run in attack, stun, next turn attack again go for exhausted, jump out of there, mage drops fireball with them at -3 penalty to the save. The team tactics on that are just brilliant with possibilities.

So, I've been looking at the rules for monk recently in combination with Ki Focus magic weapons: Can you use stunning fist through these items as well?

Teleport Object, with reguards to the momentum preserved question I know for a fact does (which by the way is, without a doubt--using a little set-up--the most powerful offensive spell in the game). You can create a one room tower in game and set up 2 portals in that tower that link to each other--one at the ceiling, one at the floor; next, throw in pebbles, and PRESTO: teleport pebbles in that have reached well beyond terminal velocity (you can get kind of ridiculous with it in that if you were to throw in much larger rocks at first, teleporting them out would create more of a vacuum for the pebbles to fall through as air does not occupy the space the rocks occupied in the tower (assuming air tight). Meaning: Teleport Object = Rail Gun = Tarrasque guts everywhere.

Just remember that an ex-monk keep all of his class abilities, including speed. So monk gone barbaric might be an awesome character concept. Plus dash, run, haste, and polymoph to cheetah and you've got major speed (not captain, not general, major).

Well okay then, point conceded (NEXT TIME GADGET, NEXT TIME!!!!!)

As far as the "moot points" of comparing classes, I would like to say that you maybe should take a look at how they fair against one another to exploit the weaknesses inherant in each one in battle versus baddies. Plus it's great mental exercise, and I don't mind playing devil's advocate for ANY class. With any class in this system, there are so many varying features within each class that each fighter is different from the next, each monk is different, each barbarian is different, and there will always be a trick up your sleeve even though you may be REALLY good at one thing. Kudos and ups to thy bad selves Paizo! The best class is the glove that fits you--and your group--at the time, roleplaying is key to any game (this isn't hack-slash-and-burn-finder). The moments that I remember are not the ogres, liches, and demons my characters killed--it's when my characters got married, when the met the ruler of the land, that sort of thing. I see all these discussion boards about all this battle related stuff, but the thing that gets my gamer rocks off is the background stories and the like. Total side note, but I'm just sayin'.

Kuma:
All I'm saying is that all I saw Jason Bulmahn say was this:

Let's start by taking a look at the monk's primary mode of attack: flurry of blows. This system is revised from the 3.5 version to work using mechanics similar to the Two-Weapon Fighting feats, but the new monk goes one step further and uses its monk level as its base attack bonus whenever it uses flurry of blows.

And there was no other mention of the interaction between the feat tree and flurry in the preview. Unless there is something that I'm just not seeing (like another article), I'm holding off judgement until I read the actual rules for myself.

As far as the other comment, I think I was kinda being a @#$%*%& on that, so...sorry.

Purple Dragon Knight:
I would like to test your theory, but I know not how to for all eyes to see. Any suggestions?

Kuma:
The reason I put it as such was that I have yet to see the book for myself and I am holding off judgement on the subject until I see the actual rules: just because something is described as "X" doesn't mean it is "X." A platypus is neither duck nor beaver.

Furthermore, using the rules to one's advantage whenever possible is not "cheesy," it's helping your party out. Each party member has their own role to play: in my opinion, the monk's is get behind enemy lines and go "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, YOU SHOULD BE TARGETING ME!" Attracting as much attention as he possibly can so that the REST of the party can tear the baddies to sheds in their own way; that, and kill mages ;P

Just remember, this is supposed to be FUN: it's a GAME. Just because I pose a contrary opinion, does not mean that I'm trying to attack anyone's "favorite class," which--by the way--mine is actually tied between rogue and druid. I'm just sticking up for the monks in the house.

[Edit]

Additionally, Improved Disarm is a great way to get a wizard's spell book away from him (the monk would actually have it in hand at that point, since he is unarmed), and Improved Grapple is a way to constantly has to make rolls to see if he casts the spell or not (even if it is a sorceress)--both of which are bonus feats to the monk.

1) From what I'm reading in the Beta (maybe it's different in the final) all it says that might possibly eliminate the possibility of the two-weapons feats is: "A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows." The two weapons feats are used as part of full attack actions and nothing is sacrificed by using flurry of blows(e.g.: whirlwind attack).
2) At level 8 now, assuming that one decided to boost the acrobatics skill (since, you know, it's friggin' sweet now) every level: Your acrobatics to jump would go as follows:
+3 in class
+8 for level
+8 for speed
+8 for skill ranks
+ Dex Mod
+10 for ring of improved jumping
+20 for ki pool expenditure
=57+Dex Mod just as a bonus
seriously we are looking at a +60 bonus (+3 Dex mod should be fair for a monk especially at that level) just at level eight. At it gets more ridiculous from there as next level that bonus would go up by 6: +4 speed, +1 skill, +1 level. To put that into perspective at level eight you are jumping 15 feet in the air just on your bonus PLUS whatever you roll: yes, I know I used a magic item in figuring all of this, but it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a character would be able to purchase a magic item for himself at some point. I did not however stack on the boots of haste bonus that gives you +12 to your jump checks due to your speed (3 extra feet), nor did I include the run feat for an extra +4. So if you want to include all of that that's approx. +76 to a jump check (19 feet). Then you have bracers of dex blah, blah, blah. You can see how the figures start stacking up quick...at 8th level, not to mention it only gets worse as we go along. Basically add 1 foot every 2 levels AND 1 foot every three levels, so: every six levels a total of 5 feet (meaning at 14th level, 20 feet with the basic set-up, 24 feet with the advanced). This is all before rolls, meaning at 14th level, if you rolled a 2: you would be able to reach the groin of the mage.
As I've always said go big or go home.

Alright it's time for me to chime in:
1) An equal level monk will take down spell casters any day of the week: Spell resistance, good progression on all saves and some additional bonuses to saves, and evasion. Not to mention the fact that their movement rate allows them to quickly close gaps and get into melee combat, forcing them to cast defensively. Stunning fist with any mage's low fortitude save will stun them more often than not. Combine all that with a huge AC to even touch them AND getting an insane amount of attacks per round (especially if one has chosen the two weapon fighting feat tree--yes, it stacks with flurry of blows)= mage killer.
2) This is inherantly a team game, guys. If you want to compare classes with the monk, you are choosing the wrong classes to do that with. A Rogue, A Frontline Fighter (Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, some Clerics, some Druids), A Healer (Cleric, Paladin, some Druids), A Glass Cannon (Wizard, Sorceress), and a Tracker (Ranger, some Druids) are the only classes you need to fight off any baddy you come accross: in my current game(with a monk, a paladin, a rogue, a cleric, and a wizard) the cleric spends most of his time healing innocent bystanders rather than the actual party members, with the monk being able to heal himself, while taking almost no damage, and the paladin being able to heal everybody else--but that's beside the point.
3) If you want to look to casters being able to exist by themselves in a party: Druids are the only ones I would look to as far as being capable frontline fighters, with the wild shape ability and spontaneous castings of summon nature's ally.
Wookie

Alright it's time for me to chime in:
1) An equal level monk will take down spell casters any day of the week: Spell resistance, good progression on all saves and some additional bonuses to saves, and evasion. Not to mention the fact that their movement rate allows them to quickly close gaps and get into melee combat, forcing them to cast defensively. Stunning fist with any mage's low fortitude save will stun them more often than not. Combine all that with a huge AC to even touch them AND getting an insane amount of attacks per round (especially if one has chosen the two weapon fighting feat tree--yes, it stacks with flurry of blows)= mage killer.
2) This is inherantly a team game, guys. If you want to compare classes with the monk, you are choosing the wrong classes to do that with. A Rogue, A Frontline Fighter (Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, some Clerics, some Druids), A Healer (Cleric, Paladin, some Druids), A Glass Cannon (Wizard, Sorceress), and a Tracker (Ranger, some Druids) are the only classes you need to fight off any baddy you come accross: in my current game(with a monk, a paladin, a rogue, a cleric, and a wizard) the cleric spends most of his time healing innocent bystanders rather than the actual party members, with the monk being able to heal himself, while taking almost no damage, and the paladin being able to heal everybody else--but that's beside the point.
3) If you want to look to casters being able to exist by themselves in a party: Druids are the only ones I would look to as far as being capable frontline fighters, with the wild shape ability and spontaneous castings of summon nature's ally.

I understand that this is just a game, I just want to say this before I get any further. I've been hearing from the playtest that the monk has not been a truly effective frontline fighter; I just feel I need to mention a few things here as I do know a little bit about the subject: My DM, a fellow player in a long standing game, and myself are all practitioners of Kung Fu--Which is what this class is based off of.
History: Shoalin Monks originally started out as completely non-violent monks practicing Buddist beleifs, as a result of this and the troubled times in China, they were consistantly raided and killed by ever-advancing armies and bandits--they were considered an easy target. A hero, Ta Mao, saw this as he approached a temple way the heck back when. Being a warrior himself, he looked upon these sleepy monks (yes there chi was that low) and decided that it would be a good idea to help them defend themselves--what good is longevity (which is what the monks were going for) if someone can came and take it from you? The long and short of the story is that this is how the original animal styles came into being as well as serveral (49 to be specific) very painful meditation/stretching/conditioning techniques.
Current Day: Mantis (once it was combined with Monkey Footwork) has been added to the Animal Kung Fu Pantheon as well as other forms (e.g.: Northern Fist, Southern Fist, Tai Chi etc.)
Effect on the Game: There has been no mention of any sort of Animal Form, or any type of form for that matter. The entire reason Monks made it into the D&D world was because people wanted to pull off Wire-Fu in this realm. So, to be a little more accurate: different styles should have different abilities to aid the monk in front line combat as noted here:
1) Monkey: you can't hit what you can't see. In the final Monkey form you learn in American Kung Fu, you bow, get down on the ground, roll around, come up for 1 kick, get down and roll around some more, come up, bow, form over. Additionally, Monkey grabbing is extremely effective at grappling, and standing from prone is practiced continually throughout all of its different forms. Make the Acrobatics checks easier for Monks using this form when going into enemy threatened squares and enemy occupied squares, have a chance of catching the enemy flat-footed, an improved grappling ability, a standing from prone ability, and retaining movement speed while prone/tumbling.
2) Tiger: Differentiating this style from both Monkey and Eagle is actually more difficult than one would think; Tiger uses a small amount of Monkey rolls and a large portion of Tiger adepts practice a large amount of Eagle as well as they both use the same basic hand strengthening techniques with only two exceptions--A) Tiger uses all digits of the hand while Eagle uses three (thumb, index, and middle) ; B) the basis of Tiger is peeling off layers of your opponent's body to get to the nougaty core of them while Eagle just reaches straight past the skin(and sometimes muscle) to extract portions of the body (e.g. muscle groups, ribs, etc.). Additionally, tiger is exceedingly good at engaging multiple attackers: in many parts of multiple forms you either take the momentum from one blow you make on opponent "A" and turn it to aid the next blows on opponents "B" and "C" who are obviously surrounding you. Or you use this as a fient to capture a limb and make them suffer for giving you such a gift; this is in addition to having some very lethal leaping attacks (One of the form names, Fei Hu Ch'u Tung, is loosely translated to "Flyng Tiger Comes out of the Cave"). Finally this was one of the original 5 animal forms that was developed: the main reason it was there was to strenghten one's bones. Make the Tiger form have bleed attacks, unable to be flanked as per improved uncanny dodge, improved fient, minor damage reduction due to bone strength, and jump bonus on attack rolls from a certain distance away.
3) Eagle: Okay, to explain this one let us flip into a very real hypothetical scenario, say you are an evil doer in an evil doer band. You happen upon a seemingly jovial elderly gentleman, grey and wrinkled beyond anything you have seen before but still healthily walking the other direction down the same path you are walking. Your leader decides to do the traditional evil doer thing and rob/kill this old man, and five of you swarm him: this is where things get tricky--the man is an Eagle master unbeknowest to your band of baddy bretheren. The first thing he does is take your best friends rib from his chest and stab it in the guy next to him--say in the jugular as the form would dictate. The rest of your buddies take a giant leap back as they have just made a HUGE mistake, but it's too late--they are dead men walking. Next thing you know you are the last one standing and you haven't even taken your sword out of its sheath. Perhaps it was the master swordsman that got his arm ripped clean off that made you lose your cool, maybe it was the quarterstaff dancer getting his quaterstaff snapped by the old man's three fingered grasp and shoved into his sternum, or perhaps it was your leader lying in a pool of his own blood with his neck muscles missing--who knows, who cares, you are next. The man walks up to you with a pained smile on his face and says to you "Please don't draw that sword, son. I prefer not to have to do what I just did." And you fall to the ground weeping. This is what can honestly happen when an Eagle master goes to work. Each successful attack is treated as a free Intimidate check on a specific opponent that can see the attack including the target, Improved Sunder, free called shot with randomly determined effects (make a % roll style list), bleed attacks, and lethal improvised weapons.
4) Mantis: Let's play a game, it's called "guess which pressure point I'm going to hit next." A Mantis master is a tricky foe; employing his knowledge of various pressure points with speed and accuracy that would would make those of us who are militarily inlined to go "Whoo-wa." Dropping foes defenses and striking strong points to make them weak (or killing people outright) make this more the art of turning the strong into the weak. This form was designed without footwork, but was combined later with monkey footwork. Game effect: Extra flurry of blows attack, Attacks do less actual damage but add in an incresing amount of ability damage (I'm thinking that you opporate on a strict base monk damage roll and increase ability damage every time the monk's normal damage would go up 1d2-1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8-1d10 progression, and possible random type of ability damage), Extra quivering palm, remeoving the random ability damage for targeted ability damage, and whirlwind attack.
Some or all of these abilities should be mitigated with ki pool expenses, so that you can balance out the game, but it would be very easy to take these abilities and give them to a monk at a certain level for each style they have been schooled in (perhaps basing this off of a non-essential ability to the monks would further nerf these abilities, perhaps Charisma: one known style plus an additional one for each charisma modifier higher than zero--basically being able to talk your way into additional schools and training). It is important to note that these are not the only styles/forms: there were AT LEAST 7 independant temples that all developed their own styles. To save some reading I will stop with only these 4, but it is important for people to realise that there is much more to Kung Fu than what has been written here: the name MEANS mastery through time and effort. If people like this set-up I would do more, but this has already taken up WAY too much time without getting paid in any fashion.
--Wookie