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Strictly speaking according to the rules a giant could get through an iron door by hitting it with a stick of wet celery.
Have I got that right?
Ok, so that's an extreme example, but isn't there an argument somewhere here to suggest that a soft object can't hurt a hard one, no matter how much strength you pack behind it.
Or, maybe, should the sundering object also take damage, or some proportion of the damage, so that it might break first.
Richard
Strictly speaking according to the rules a giant could get through an iron door by hitting it with a stick of wet celery.
Have I got that right?
Ok, so that's an extreme example, but isn't there an argument somewhere here to suggest that a soft object can't hurt a hard one, no matter how much strength you pack behind it.
Or, maybe, should the sundering object also take damage, or some proportion of the damage, so that it might break first.
Richard
There are no rules implying that items take damage from being used to sunder or break other items, however a GM must always use his discretion. The hardness of an item being used to break another item has no effect on the attampt (though adamantine ignores all hardness below 20).
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door, much less a celery stick!
There was a discussion around this during the Beta testing, and Jason commented that it just isn't worth adding a rule for damaging an object when using it to sunder.
My off-the-cuff suggestion: If you're using one object to smash another object, it takes half the damage that it deals out. So using a metal sword to chop down a safe door is going to break the sword before the door. And of course, some objects can't be effectively used to damage certain other objects, as pointed out above.
Like a hand breaking a brick?
I plan on using the new sunder rules quite abit so I'd be very much against having the tool used for sundering take damage along with the sunder target. It'd just discourage people from sundering things. Instead focus more on the quote Grandfather presented from pg174. You can only sunder a target with a tool that makes sense. So no not going to get through that iron door with a piercing/slashing weapon. Going to need specifically a bludgeoning tool there. That quote is exactly what you were looking for.
And remember again as Grandfather pointed out: Adamantine ignores hardness below 20. So Adamantine can't sunder Adamantine easily still.
Like a hand breaking a brick?
I have no problem with a commoner breaking his hand when punching a brick wall. :-)
If I were using the rule I proposed, I'd probably give some "virtual weapon hardness" to monks and other characters with Improved Unarmed Strike. Similarly for using a particularly apt weapon (like an axe on a tree or a pick on a stone wall), I'd waive the damage.
I plan on using the new sunder rules quite abit so I'd be very much against having the tool used for sundering take damage along with the sunder target. It'd just discourage people from sundering things. Instead focus more on the quote Grandfather presented from pg174. You can only sunder a target with a tool that makes sense.
I guess my point is that there are certain cases where it makes sense for sunder even though your sundering instrument would be damaged in the process. YMMV, of course. :-)
I'd just use simple collision rules in cases like this. There's some in D20 Modern or just simple rules taking that force is applied equally on either object. So an iron door will smash a stone club trying to batter it down fairly easily. If you want less realistic, the 3/4, 1/2, or even 1/4 can easily reflect this. I believe there are already rules for how magic weapons effect DR and those could be applied easily allowing for certain +x type weapons to negate a fair part of the force. Adamantine weapons would of course be nearly indestructible.
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Strictly speaking according to the rules a giant could get through an iron door by hitting it with a stick of wet celery.
Rule 0 :)
In all seriousness, you can come up with all the rules you want to describe how much damage a particular object does to another object, but that's not really what D&D/PRPG combat is about. There's some basic guidelines to explain why you can't punch through an iron door with your fists (unless, apparently, you're a monk) but it doesn't even try to be a comprehensive simulation of weapon impact physics. As a result, there comes a point in the rules where you have to apply common sense to the events in the world, which is why Rule 0 exists.
If you want a game system that's more simulationist in its approach to melee combat, you should look at something like GURPS.
Strictly speaking according to the rules a giant could get through an iron door by hitting it with a stick of wet celery.Rule 0 :)
In all seriousness, you can come up with all the rules you want to describe how much damage a particular object does to another object, but that's not really what D&D/PRPG combat is about. There's some basic guidelines to explain why you can't punch through an iron door with your fists (unless, apparently, you're a monk) but it doesn't even try to be a comprehensive simulation of weapon impact physics. As a result, there comes a point in the rules where you have to apply common sense to the events in the world, which is why Rule 0 exists.
If you want a game system that's more simulationist in its approach to melee combat, you should look at something like GURPS.
See p. 174, please.
See p. 174, please.... none of which invalidates my statement.
No. P. 174 actually has the rule which explains why you cannot break an iron door with a celery stick. No need to go by rule 0.
;)
Well, yeah, but that's just basically saying, "use common sense." :)
No. P. 174 actually has the rule which explains why you cannot break an iron door with a celery stick. No need to go by rule 0.
;)
OH NO! Not Common Sense! ANYTHING but Common Sense! We must have this fixed in stone, not Common Sense!
Meh, Dwarves...
As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,
Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.
As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.
Because a longsword lacks the mass to be an effective door smasher.
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As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.
I'd have to disagree with this statement. an adamantine weapon is not anything like a lightsabre. lightsabre requires no strength to penetrate a solid surface of any quality.
Adamantine Its more like a modern steel weapon construction compared to an old forged weapons. If you hit a weapon you will likely break it more easily but if you hit a solid iron door you'll just create a shower of sparks and a few cuts (where a normal sword will just create sparks).
The trick to breaking down doors is to attack the weak points in them with a bludgeoning weapon. watch any police in action series like "bad boys" and you will see they use battering rams on either the lock or the hinges of a door. even a wooden door can resist the full force of a titanium battering ram for a few hits.
now compare that to Jack Nicolson hacking at the door with an axe in the shining, takes him a fair amount of time just to make a hole large enough for him to see through.
This is where the rules dont support breaking an object realisticly. and certainly not in a combat environment (hense why they are listed as additional rules and not under the combat section). When smashing down a door I always consider the effort used taking up at least 1d4 rounds worth of time to accomplish with a blunt weapon and 2d4 with a slashing weapon. If your using a portable ram its 1 round.
The trick to breaking down doors is to attack the weak points in them with a bludgeoning weapon. watch any police in action series like "bad boys" and you will see they use battering rams on either the lock or the hinges of a door. even a wooden door can resist the full force of a titanium battering ram for a few hits.
Unless a door is made of thin plywood it will usually not break.
What always gives in are the hinges, mounts or furnishings; the weak spots.As pointed out lightsabers do not require strength to use unlike a medieval sword.
You could break a wooden door with any metal sword, given enough time, but an axe would be infinitely better suited for the job, and neither of the two would stand a chance against a stone or iron door - not even if they where made of adamantine.
Well, yeah, but that's just basically saying, "use common sense." :)OH NO! Not Common Sense! ANYTHING but Common Sense! We must have this fixed in stone, not Common Sense!
Meh, Dwarves...
I agree that common sense should be used. Obviously you can't break down a brick wall with a twig and obviously you can break down a brick wall with a wrecking ball. But I'd like to rule consistently in the "in-between" cases. E.g., if I use a metal sword to bash open a metal-bound chest, I think it should be possible, even if it's hard on the sword. How hard? I don't know, I'm still working that one out.
I agree that common sense should be used. Obviously you can't break down a brick wall with a twig and obviously you can break down a brick wall with a wrecking ball. But I'd like to rule consistently in the "in-between" cases. E.g., if I use a metal sword to bash open a metal-bound chest, I think it should be possible, even if it's hard on the sword. How hard? I don't know, I'm still working that one out.
Well, yeah, but that's just basically saying, "use common sense." :)OH NO! Not Common Sense! ANYTHING but Common Sense! We must have this fixed in stone, not Common Sense!
Meh, Dwarves...
You could use a sword to bash open the padlock. I have done this with realtive easy myself both woth a shovel and woth a hammer. It is really a matter of technique. With the right technique you do not need to damage the item you are using. If however you just hack away with a sword, you will definitely give it some nasty dents. This is a situation where I think an adamantine longsword might prove effective.
As for a metal bound chest. If the lock is built in it is a lot harder. You might complete it but would probably damage your sword.
I recomend using a crowbar. However, you must keep in mind, that depending upon the quality and sturdines of the chest, and the size of the crowbar, you might damage the crowbar in the process.
Many of the posts in this threat take it for granted that breaking stuff is easy and that a strong arm and a longsword can do any job. Take my word for it. It is a matter of having the right tool and the right technique. Otherwise you will probably ruin that pretty sword of yours.
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Ask any DM the Question:
"Can I force open the lid of the chest with my crowbar?" and any DM will say yes make a strength check without even thinking about it. they wont even consider the effect on the crowbar.
Ask any DM the Question:
"Can I force open the lid of the chest with my longsword?" and 90% of DMs will pause, check the rulebook, or consider the makeup of the chest vs your weapon before giving a definate yes or no. Once you have made the attempt they will then consider the effects on your weapon.
Simply put weapons are for dealing damage to opponents in combat, not for forcing open chests. Thats what crowbars are for. If you find yourself stuck in a situation without the correct tool for the job expect your improvised tool to not be as effective.
Ask any DM the Question:
"Can I force open the lid of the chest with my crowbar?" and any DM will say yes make a strength check without even thinking about it. they wont even consider the effect on the crowbar.
Ask any DM the Question:
"Can I force open the lid of the chest with my longsword?" and 90% of DMs will pause, check the rulebook, or consider the makeup of the chest vs your weapon before giving a definate yes or no. Once you have made the attempt they will then consider the effects on your weapon.
Simply put weapons are for dealing damage to opponents in combat, not for forcing open chests. Thats what crowbars are for. If you find yourself stuck in a situation without the correct tool for the job expect your improvised tool to not be as effective.
My point exactly, thanks :)
As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.I'd have to disagree with this statement. an adamantine weapon is not anything like a lightsabre. lightsabre requires no strength to penetrate a solid surface of any quality.
Adamantine Its more like a modern steel weapon construction compared to an old forged weapons. If you hit a weapon you will likely break it more easily but if you hit a solid iron door you'll just create a shower of sparks and a few cuts (where a normal sword will just create sparks).
The trick to breaking down doors is to attack the weak points in them with a bludgeoning weapon. watch any police in action series like "bad boys" and you will see they use battering rams on either the lock or the hinges of a door. even a wooden door can resist the full force of a titanium battering ram for a few hits.
now compare that to Jack Nicolson hacking at the door with an axe in the shining, takes him a fair amount of time just to make a hole large enough for him to see through.
This is where the rules dont support breaking an object realisticly. and certainly not in a combat environment (hense why they are listed as additional rules and not under the combat section). When smashing down a door I always consider the effort used taking up at least 1d4 rounds worth of time to accomplish with a blunt weapon and 2d4 with a slashing weapon. If your using a portable ram its 1 round.
Yet, much of the toughness of a huge iron door is related to how much hp it has. A adamantine weapon is incredibly hard and durable. Your example would still stand yes, it'd make sparks and leave a scratch. That does not mean the weapon took damage. Against a large extra thick iron door, the shear quantity of HP the object has would require rounds and rounds of chipping and slashing at the door.
In most cases... you'd want to take your adamantine weapon to the stone around the door. It'd be faster.
Using a ram to break a door is different. That goes along "bursting" the door and is much quicker. You get several folks on the ram and burst the door from its frame thus bypassing the hardness and hp of the door all together. Effectively attacking the "weak points" of the door.
As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.Because a longsword lacks the mass to be an effective door smasher.
But wouldn't the strength of the giant behind the sword be enough smash?
But wouldn't the strength of the giant behind the sword be enough smash?
Enough to smash the sword, anyway.
I have enough experience of weapons in the real world to know that they don't make good tools. Weapons are weapons; not hammers, picks, crowbars, screwdrivers or wrenches. A fighter wouldn't ruin his dagger's edge scratching it around against a rock, unless he had no choice.
BTW, I like your avatar! :)
But wouldn't the strength of the giant behind the sword be enough smash?Enough to smash the sword, anyway.
I have enough experience of weapons in the real world to know that they don't make good tools. Weapons are weapons; not hammers, picks, crowbars, screwdrivers or wrenches. A fighter wouldn't ruin his dagger's edge scratching it around against a rock, unless he had no choice.
BTW, I like your avatar! :)
Of course, a real-world fighter does not have access to a material like adamantine for weapons. Thats basically like saying you have a weapon made of pure diamond. If you had a weapon that extreme and tough... knowing that it'd be pretty much impossible to break... you might abuse it a little.
With the extreme strength and weight of a giant behind a giant-sized adamantine longsword... I could see the giant two-handing the sword and ramming the sword through the door with a power attack and then working it like a can opener.
It would still be time consuming and wouldn't be like using a lightsaber ... but a adamantine sword of that size and weight would have little problem cutting a iron door over time with that much force behind it.
Only if the giant was using a adamantine long sword of a size smaller than what would be a optimal size for the giant... would I say he might snap the sword outright.
EDIT: If the giant was using a giant sized adamatine warhammer, I'd have even less problem with him just repeatedly smashing away at the door till it broke. Warhammers were designed to puncture and smash steel armor after all.
But wouldn't the strength of the giant behind the sword be enough smash?As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.Because a longsword lacks the mass to be an effective door smasher.
I really, really doubt it. But since I will not get my hands on an actual admantine sword any time soon I cannot say so with 100% certainty.
Look at it this way. Could you cut through a wooden door (even a flimsy one) with a pencil? The strength of the wielder is not as important as the make up of the tool.
Your giant would probably stand a much better chance at knocking in the door with his sheer weight.
But wouldn't the strength of the giant behind the sword be enough smash?As I interpret this, even a wielding an adamantine longsword would not let your giant through an iron door,Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.Because a longsword lacks the mass to be an effective door smasher.
*Snip*
Look at it this way. Could you cut through a wooden door (even a flimsy one) with a pencil? The strength of the wielder is not as important as the make up of the tool.
*SNIP*
Using the example of a pencil is not really a fair comparison. It is not designed to damage anything.
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ok...first of all i just have to say I love this thread
anyway...
As for the argument of Sword vs. Iron Door
If ...sword is metal (other than adamantine)Iron Door wins
If ...hammer vs Iron Door - hammer wins
If ...sword is adamantine - sword wins (kinda)
Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20 (see Additional Rules).
it doesn't just ignore...it bypasses. I picture two scenes that mimic this event a little.
Scene One - Batman Beyond: an episode with a ninja that had a mono-filament sword a was cutting through things light a light saber
Could not find a video depicting scene...sorry.
Scene Two - Silent Hill: a scene where Pyramid Head (about a giants str) is bashing an Iron Door with a large greatsword (or giant longsword) and pierced the door a few times, then wiggled it around and started to tear the door like a tin can.
Here's a Youtube video depicting said scene. about 2:10 in. [Scene not for kids and includes adult language and violence.]
Remember: Metal is strong, but size is not everything. Sometimes, its the small, sharp pointy end that does the trick.
I use common sense, but also my games are inspired by anime, so I do allow someone with a greatsword hacking down an iron wall in a shot or two (especially with Power Attack) with no problem. I allow off-the-wall stunts and some things that just physically wouldn't make sense but, hey, like an anime, it's not real. No one says that Jet Li movie where he infinitely dodges arrows sucks cause that's impossible, if they're a D&D player they go,"That's cool! I want my monk to do that! What feats or magic or whatever do I need?" (luckily, there's an Epic Feat that does such).
In fact, it takes extra work, but if a lot of damage was dealt, I house-rule that a miss strikes either a nearby object or the floor. I take off hp from such objects and I describe the damage done. Nothing like seeing the shock on your players faces when that ogre mage did a -5 Power Attack wielding a Large greatsword, missing the PC, but cleaving a ditch in the city street. Or a lightning bolt zapping through a forest to hit a PC and sundering several trees down or causing some to light in flame. Makes for some interesting terrain effects, too.
In fact, it takes extra work, but if a lot of damage was dealt, I house-rule that a miss strikes either a nearby object or the floor. I take off hp from such objects and I describe the damage done...
That can be very cinematic and immersive.
Of course, I don't bother to actually roll damage vs. hardness and object HPs, I'd just make it up descriptions on the fly when I think it would add to the cinematics of the encounter (i.e. EVERY miss doesn't rip up an adjacent object, most of them just swoosh air). Maybe in situations where the damage to surroundings would materially impact the players somehow (e.g. they're on a flimsy bridge over a chasm) I might deal with details to that extent.
...But it's certainly a nice way to enhance the 'depth' of combat encounters in general...
("Environmental Effects" like this don't even have to result from damage: If I have a Move Action I don't need, kicking over a pile of crates or barrel of fish for "Insta Difficult Terrain" can be an effective AND flavorful addition to the combat!)
OH NO! Not Common Sense! ANYTHING but Common Sense! We must have this fixed in stone, not Common Sense!Meh, Dwarves...
You're still surprised?
Albeit with less quiet humming and more deafening ringing?
Why not? If you've got the strength, adamantine will cut through iron the same way a lightsaber cuts through hardened blast doors.
Yes. In other word's: A real man's lightsabre.
Speaking of how a lightsaber cutting a blast door... in D&D terms it would be much like a Brilliant Energy longsword with Acid and Flaming.
You could easily stick the sword through the door but would have to leave it there as the flaming and acid properties slowly eat away at the material of the door.
Adamantine however is much more physical in how it cuts and would require force behind the blow. The difference in hardness between adamantine and iron is much the same difference as say steel vs. lead.
Would you have problems with a steel sword cutting through a lead wall?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Adamantine however is much more physical in how it cuts and would require force behind the blow. The difference in hardness between adamantine and iron is much the same difference as say steel vs. lead.Would you have problems with a steel sword cutting through a lead wall?
It's more like a steel sword cutting through a wall of jello (or any other material with hardness 0 - like paper, cloth or rope).
It's more like a steel sword cutting through a wall of jello (or any other material with hardness 0 - like paper, cloth or rope)....
Adamantine however is much more physical in how it cuts and would require force behind the blow. The difference in hardness between adamantine and iron is much the same difference as say steel vs. lead.Would you have problems with a steel sword cutting through a lead wall?
Considering we are talking about a ultra thick iron door/wall ... I'd say that there would be more resistance than that. You got to keep in mind how much hp a iron wall of that size has. If it were like jello you could cut it down in one stroke.
Wooden walls would cut like paper though.
Speaking of how a lightsaber cutting a blast door... in D&D terms it would be much like a Brilliant Energy longsword with Acid and Flaming.
You could easily stick the sword through the door but would have to leave it there as the flaming and acid properties slowly eat away at the material of the door.
Except the brilliant energy does not do anything to the door, and acid and flaming would not get through the doors hardness.
Never said the brilliant energy did anything to the door. Also... on if the energy did anything to the door or not would be a matter of DM interpretation. You are effectively magically putting a acid and fire effect "inside" the material of the door and attacking it on almost a molecular level. Again... this is up to DM interpretation.
The 3.5 hardness rules actually allowed for DM interpretation in the case of a "attack type" more likely to damage an object doing more damage.
However, were the DM to prefer to favor the extreme RAW in this case... simply stick with one energy type (acid would be good) and pick up Energy Surge (acid) to go with it instead. Energy surge allows for an additional 3d6 points of the selected energy type basically increasing the damage dealt to +4d6. Given a high enough CON stat, you'll be able to activate the energy surge enough times to melt the door.
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This has been an interesting thread, but I'd like to take a step back and examine the question, "Is this appropriate?"
My take on this is that I don't want a lowly adamantine dagger cutting through every wall in every situation. And I can only create "acid-filled walls" so many times, y'know? ;)
If you allow adamantine to bypass hardness of all other materials, how does a (mundane) government protect itself and its citizens? All I can think of is the aforementioned hollow walls filled with acid, or permanent walls of force that completely enclose particular areas. Another option is to put important places on another plane or in an extradimensional space.
Is that how you want your cities and towns protecting their assets?
This has been an interesting thread, but I'd like to take a step back and examine the question, "Is this appropriate?"
My take on this is that I don't want a lowly adamantine dagger cutting through every wall in every situation. And I can only create "acid-filled walls" so many times, y'know? ;)
If you allow adamantine to bypass hardness of all other materials, how does a (mundane) government protect itself and its citizens? All I can think of is the aforementioned hollow walls filled with acid, or permanent walls of force that completely enclose particular areas. Another option is to put important places on another plane or in an extradimensional space.
Is that how you want your cities and towns protecting their assets?
Your lowly adamantine dagger is not going to be cutting through dungeon walls in most cases.
*1 Your adamantine dagger still only does 1d4 + str damage.
*2 Your average pc would need to take forever and a day to cut through a thick stone wall just because of its hp.
*3 Cutting through stone walls in a dungeon that oft has many tons of stone being supported by said walls is not always the wisest thing.
*4 Dungeon denisans are oft attracted by noise.
*SNIP*
By "Energy Surge" adding 3 dice are you referring to an enchantment? or the 6th level spell "Greater Energy Surge".
Now an Iron door 2 inches thick has DR 10 and 60 Hp.
4d6 damage does an AVERAGE of 14 points of damage and thus would do 4 points of damage (assumign average rolls) So 15 surges to get through it. Your standard 1d6 acid will never get through it.
I'm referring to the +1 synergistic weapon enhancement from the Magic Item Compendium for a total stacked +4d6 acid.
At this point... we are also talking about a +7 mod weapon and more than likely 15th level characters with stat boosting items. Wherein the party wizard would more than likely just disintegrate the wall anyway.
This was just an example of a "D&D lightsaber" though and not really meant to be taken as an average game item nor average situation. Just that it could be possible, and it would work.
This has been an interesting thread, but I'd like to take a step back and examine the question, "Is this appropriate?"
My take on this is that I don't want a lowly adamantine dagger cutting through every wall in every situation. And I can only create "acid-filled walls" so many times, y'know? ;)
If you allow adamantine to bypass hardness of all other materials, how does a (mundane) government protect itself and its citizens? All I can think of is the aforementioned hollow walls filled with acid, or permanent walls of force that completely enclose particular areas. Another option is to put important places on another plane or in an extradimensional space.
Is that how you want your cities and towns protecting their assets?
Um first off let us consider the price of Adamantine. It is not a common material, and even if you do get a dagger made out of it cutting through a wall is going to take a lot of time. You will be noticed in that time by the very mundane guards doing very mundane patrols which will then raise the mundane alarm and proceed with a mundane arrest.
Also if you are in a dungeon and they are cutting through the walls they will again be noticed as creatures wander through, or the creature on the other side sees a hole opening in the wall through which the creature will attack (probably), and the amount of time taken is huge.
Finally you don't just cut willy nilly through things, you could collapse the area around you, cause cave ins, or cut into the wrong area.
On a side note very few towns and cities actually have that much wealth in their "coffers" at any time. Tax days and government pay days are probably very close together in order to move the money along quickly and taxes are probably a weekly or monthly thing instead of yearly (easier to get the folks to pay a little each week or month than a lot once a year). Also considering that most "non adventurer" business is conducted in the form of silver pieces instead of gold it is likely that what the city does have isn't as amazing as a vault full of gems and precious objects.
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Um first off let us consider the price of Adamantine. It is not a common material, and even if you do get a dagger made out of it cutting through a wall is going to take a lot of time. You will be noticed in that time by the very mundane guards doing very mundane patrols which will then raise the mundane alarm and proceed with a mundane arrest.
Also if you are in a dungeon and they are cutting through the walls they will again be noticed as creatures wander through, or the creature on the other side sees a hole opening in the wall through which the creature will attack (probably), and the amount of time taken is huge.
Finally you don't just cut willy nilly through things, you could collapse the area around you, cause cave ins, or cut into the wrong area.
bringing up another good point here. adamantine is suppose to be an ultra rare metal found only in asteroids crashing from space-rock or buried deep within the earth itself.
another side note about adamantine i've always wondered. now, i'n no blacksmith, but i imagine steel is harder to forge into weapons than iron is (by hand that is). So, by that logic, i'd assume that adamantine would be ridiculously difficult to forge by hand. You might break hammers, or your forge itself, or it just might be hard to mold and bend to the right shape...plus sharpening it would be a b@#*$.
Um first off let us consider the price of Adamantine. It is not a common material, and even if you do get a dagger made out of it cutting through a wall is going to take a lot of time. You will be noticed in that time by the very mundane guards doing very mundane patrols which will then raise the mundane alarm and proceed with a mundane arrest.
Also if you are in a dungeon and they are cutting through the walls they will again be noticed as creatures wander through, or the creature on the other side sees a hole opening in the wall through which the creature will attack (probably), and the amount of time taken is huge.
Finally you don't just cut willy nilly through things, you could collapse the area around you, cause cave ins, or cut into the wrong area.
bringing up another good point here. adamantine is suppose to be an ultra rare metal found only in asteroids crashing from space-rock or buried deep within the earth itself.
another side note about adamantine i've always wondered. now, i'n no blacksmith, but i imagine steel is harder to forge into weapons than iron is (by hand that is). So, by that logic, i'd assume that adamantine would be ridiculously difficult to forge by hand. You might break hammers, or your forge itself, or it just might be hard to mold and bend to the right shape...plus sharpening it would be a b@#*$.
True.
Only the strongest and most skilled smiths could work the material by hand. You might consider you masterwork artisan tools to include extra strong anvils and perhaps even large counter-balanced and weighted presses or "hammers". Of course... they could just heat the adamantine to melting and cast it in a mold instead of actually having to fold it. Adamantine is this near-mystical fantasy material, who knows how they would actually work it.
Sharpening it would perhaps require an adamantine file. Or perhaps special adamantine ore stones are used for honing. Maybe perhaps diamonds or diamond dust is used to hone the weapon.
I'll tell you this much though... once you got it sharp, you would rarely need to sharpen it again.
Um first off let us consider the price of Adamantine.
If you allow adamantine to bypass hardness of all other materials, how does a (mundane) government protect itself and its citizens?
Indeed. It's like asking: "How does Podunk, Nebraska defend itself against an attack by Apache assault helicopters?" It doesn't, but by the time you can afford a weapon like that there's not much of interest that's worth attacking/stealing anyways.
Indeed. It's like asking: "How does Podunk, Nebraska defend itself against an attack by Apache assault helicopters?" It doesn't, but by the time you can afford a weapon like that there's not much of interest that's worth attacking/stealing anyways.Um first off let us consider the price of Adamantine.
If you allow adamantine to bypass hardness of all other materials, how does a (mundane) government protect itself and its citizens?
Depends... if you get to the point that you can "just" afford it, then you'll be flat broke once buying it, and will be looking for a quick source of cash.
Knocking over a couple of quikee-marts isn't going to cut it at that level, but I do not think you'll be attacking any governments or anything. :)
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Knocking over a couple of quikee-marts isn't going to cut it at that level, but I do not think you'll be attacking any governments or anything. :)
I guess I don't understand. Are you saying that the evil NPCs in your campaign will never have adamantine and therefore the governments (or individuals seeking security) never need to worry about it?
Knocking over a couple of quikee-marts isn't going to cut it at that level, but I do not think you'll be attacking any governments or anything. :)I guess I don't understand. Are you saying that the evil NPCs in your campaign will never have adamantine and therefore the governments (or individuals seeking security) never need to worry about it?
No, he's saying that if you have access to adamantine, breaking into some random village's granary with it is not really worth your time, and thus it's not worth said random village's time to worry about it.
Brings to mind a story the owner of the FLGS tells: At some point in years past, he had a character in a party of adventurers who were doing some random TSR module. In the module, the adventurers are sent off to find the McGuffin inside a fortified castle built into a canyon. Stretched across the entrance to the canyon was a giant adamantine gate (think the entrance to Mordor in Return of the King). So, what does the party do?
They dismantle the gate and retire to live as kings somewhere else. It was several million gold in adamantine.
Knocking over a couple of quikee-marts isn't going to cut it at that level, but I do not think you'll be attacking any governments or anything. :)I guess I don't understand. Are you saying that the evil NPCs in your campaign will never have adamantine and therefore the governments (or individuals seeking security) never need to worry about it?No, he's saying that if you have access to adamantine, breaking into some random village's granary with it is not really worth your time, and thus it's not worth said random village's time to worry about it.
Brings to mind a story the owner of the FLGS tells: At some point in years past, he had a character in a party of adventurers who were doing some random TSR module. In the module, the adventurers are sent off to find the McGuffin inside a fortified castle built into a canyon. Stretched across the entrance to the canyon was a giant adamantine gate (think the entrance to Mordor in Return of the King). So, what does the party do?
They dismantle the gate and retire to live as kings somewhere else. It was several million gold in adamantine.
Exactly, if you borrowed 1gp from a fellow PC, and pinched and saved every last copper till 3rd level you could "just" afford a adamantine dagger and the same set of clothes you've had since 1st level. (The free ones)
Stealing from some random poor village isn't really going to be worth your time at 3rd level, but you are not powerful enough to try and hack your way into the kings treasury. You've got a dagger that can cut through most material and the clothes on your back. If you are a rogue...and you have enough stealth... you might be able to sneak into some noble or rich merchants summer home to steal some baubles... maybe.